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Fixed Shutter Modes- Speed/Angle Preferences

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Kevin Jones
Fixed Shutter Modes- Speed/Angle Preferences
on Mar 6, 2008 at 12:59:21 pm

Doing some experimenting with the new EX-1.
Trying to smooth-out the fluttery look of 1080 24p video.
Was suggested I set Speed to 1/48 or 1/50.
No real difference I can see thru the viewfinder.
1080 60i looks very smooth by comparison.
Would setting Shutter to Angle make a difference?
Luckily no shoots this week thanks to recession.
Still have DVCAM as backup till I get up to speed.
But chomping at bit to go HD.
Thanks again for the great help.

Kevin Jones


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David Jones
Re: Fixed Shutter Modes- Speed/Angle Preferences
on Mar 6, 2008 at 1:32:36 pm

It's been suggested on several posts that shooting at 30p instead of 24p will smooth it out. Also, as someone from a film background, I would try increasing the shutter angle (not speed) to 90 or more. Us film guys usually use shutter angles of 171 or 180.


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Kevin Jones
Re: Fixed Shutter Modes- Speed/Angle Preferences
on Mar 6, 2008 at 1:42:23 pm

We're testing again this afternoon and will try out your suggestions.
I have great respect for Filmies.
Thanks for the info.

Kevin Jones



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Kevin Jones
Re: Fixed Shutter Modes- Speed/Angle Preferences
on Mar 6, 2008 at 1:51:29 pm

Couldn't wait.
Grabbed my EX-1 and walked outside.
Set the Shutter to Angle 180.
Must say it looks MUCH nicer. Very smooth.
Will do more testing later. I'll let you know how it goes.
Thanks.

Kevin Jones



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Craig Seeman
Re: Fixed Shutter Modes- Speed/Angle Preferences
on Mar 6, 2008 at 2:54:31 pm

At 24p a shutter of 1/48 and 180° is the same.

Shooting at faster shutter speeds can result in the "Saving Private Ryan" effect in which you get what some call a "stuttering" type motion. That's due to decreased motion blur as there's less motion in each frame.

You need to carefully control camera movement at 24p to not see the motion judder. There are guidelines to shooting 24p and getting good motion.




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Kevin Jones
Re: Fixed Shutter Modes- Speed/Angle Preferences
on Mar 6, 2008 at 3:50:20 pm

I'm searching for techniques right now.
Thanks.

Kevin Jones



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David Jones
Re: Fixed Shutter Modes- Speed/Angle Preferences
on Mar 6, 2008 at 11:04:56 pm

Yeah, that's true..a 180 degree shutter angle exposes 1/48 ;O) It's possible though, by changing the shutter angle, as opposed to the shutter speed, you'll get a smoother look (though, again, I'm not sure how...lol). It seems to be the general consensus on here, that if you want a "real" film look, you should shoot at 30p instead of 24p. As I don't have my EX-1 yet, you'll have to let me know how it's going :o)


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Ron Shook
Re: Fixed Shutter Modes- Speed/Angle Preferences
on Mar 7, 2008 at 8:32:38 am

Kevin,

[Kevin Jones] "Doing some experimenting with the new EX-1.
Trying to smooth-out the fluttery look of 1080 24p video.
Was suggested I set Speed to 1/48 or 1/50.
No real difference I can see thru the viewfinder.
1080 60i looks very smooth by comparison."


While you (and I for that matter) are getting an education in this thread on shutter speeds and shutter angles, what no one has bothered to point out is that 24p video viewed raw from the camera or in your NLE's computer display on a 24p project is gonna look ghastly juddery when there's any kind of motion involved, in relation to what you are used to seeing in the movie house or on TV.

It varies from individual to individual but most folks need close to 30 frames/second for persistence of vision to kick fully in and many individuals start to see individual frames at 24 frames/second. This doesn't happen in the theater because optical projectors break each individual frame into 2 or more viewings with multi-bladed projectors. It doesn't happen in the electronic theater or on TV because we are watching 24p, whether SD or HD, that has pull down applied so that we are viewing 24p at either 60 frames or fields/second.

If you want to see how your 24p from the EX or any other camcorder will look as an end product, put the 24p into your NLE and play it back in a 1080i, 720p, or 480i project where the pull down is applied. You'll see the judder you experienced in the camera, or in a true 24p project which ain't part of what anyone else will see in the end.

I don't agree that the best "film look" is obtained at 30p but it's sure easier and more forgiving to work with and still get some of the "film look." If you're really going for a "film look" on a doco or narrative piece, shoot 24p, but realize that the "fluttery look" on subject or camera movement is what you'll see during production, but not so much at the end of the post process. Of course don't commit the 24p sins of moving your camera too fast instead of slowly and deliberately. Even those film guys screw up on that from time to time. (g) You can do fast stuff in 24p. It's the moderate pans and tilts that we get used to shooting with video, that can be gory in 24p.

I hope this makes some sense.

Ron Shook
Shoulder-High Eye Productions
CreativeCOW Forum Host for Discreet edit*


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Sverker Hahn
Re: Fixed Shutter Modes- Speed/Angle Preferences
on Mar 7, 2008 at 10:34:20 am

So what has this PAL/NTCS thing to do with me?

I don´t think that my video will be broadcasted. I make DVDs, Blu-rays (in the future) or directly on HDD mediaplayers to show it on a flatscreen (HD or HD-ready).

My media player (Tvix) has settings for automatically switching between PAL and NTCS.

I know that there are differenses between PAL and NTCS regarding resolution and frame speed.

But if I want to use 30 fps on my EX1 in PAL country. Does it really matter?






Sverker Hahn, Stockholm

Slower is better!

Sony EX1
Canon XH A1
iMac Intel
Final Cut Studio 2


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