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F70 - Firewire out or HDSDI out?

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Thomas Hughes
F70 - Firewire out or HDSDI out?
on Oct 10, 2007 at 7:35:36 pm

We're loading our media to Final Cut from the F70 deck using the firewire output and the FAM protocol. Are we losing any resolution doing it this way rather that using the HDSDI out?


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Andy Mees
Re: F70 - Firewire out or HDSDI out?
on Oct 12, 2007 at 4:25:33 am

not at all ... in fact by using FAM mode, rather than capturing via HD-SDI, you are maintaining the original clip data in all its pristine native glory.
you'd be hard pressed to spot the difference though, and capturing via HD-SDI and a suitable I/O card has the potential benefit of capturing to and working in a more edit friendly codec.


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Wayne Carey
Re: F70 - Firewire out or HDSDI out?
on Oct 17, 2007 at 1:32:35 pm

I agree with Andy completely. FAM mode is data ONLY. There is no transcoding going on. This is the best quality you can get.

BUT...

If you are an older guy like me whose been in the business for the last twenty something years, the old way of Log and Capture is the most comfortable way of doing this. I prefer this method simply because we mix our footage with HDV and the HDV and XDCAM HD codecs are the most friendly codecs to work with using Final Cut Pro. We primarily use the DVCProHD codec to edit.

Yeah, it sounds like overkill... but its quality is awesome and easy to work with. Besides, when you air your program, after all of the processing that goes on, you'll loose some of that signal. The game is the best quality you can send to broadcast. After that, its out of your control.

_______________________________

Wayne Carey
Schazam Productions
http://www.schazamproductions.com
http://blogs.creativecow.net/waynecarey


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davidb
Re: F70 - Firewire out or HDSDI out?
on Oct 17, 2007 at 7:32:32 pm

Wayne Carey...
I prefer this method simply because we mix our footage with HDV and the HDV and XDCAM HD codecs are the most friendly codecs to work with using Final Cut Pro. We primarily use the DVCProHD codec to edit.

Did you mean to say these codecs are not the most friendly to work with?

Either way I hear what you're saying, but isn't one of the big advantages with file based work flow is that you don't have to log and capture, and you just drag the clips over?
I really don't know.
I am very interested in this workflow as we have just purchased FCPro and the PDW F75 with a Sony Ex Camera and plan to put our express card data onto XDCAM HD discs.

Then we could ingest the footage as files and edit the MXF files. If we had to mix some HDV or up rezed Beta SP could you transcode those files to MXF so the timeline would be happy and then archive back to the F75 thru firewire and the original MXF files would stay in their native format.
Except for the fact that they started as MP4 files with the EX camera.

Thanks for any insight into our new workflow.
David


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Andy Mees
Re: F70 - Firewire out or HDSDI out?
on Oct 18, 2007 at 4:02:19 am

for your workflow FAM is the way to go.

With FCP6's multi format timeline you'll have no problem mixing HDV and XDCAM HD on the same timeline. The ability to select ProRes422 as the render codec in HDV and XDCAM HD timelines eliminates the long render issues.

If you have the PDBK-104 option board for your F75 you can dub your BetaSP footage to XDCAM HD letting the deck do the upconvert.

when you're done and dusted you can conform and export back the XDCAM disc (via firewire) or export as appropriate. if you have any 3rd party HD I/O card, or maybe a Matrox MXO box, you can easily record your timeline back to XDCAM HD via HD-SDI without waiting for the conform.


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Wayne Carey
Re: F70 - Firewire out or HDSDI out?
on Oct 18, 2007 at 12:48:40 pm

See the beauty of XDCAM and tapeless workflows...

I try to do this when I can but when working in After Effects, outputting to XDCAM HD never works. We are looking into fully switching over to XDCAM HD workflows now.

[Andy Mees] "f you have the PDBK-104 option board for your F75 you can dub your BetaSP footage to XDCAM HD letting the deck do the upconvert."

Always a great option to have on your machine. We have two decks one with the option in the mastering room and another deck with the HDV dub option board in the other edit suite.

Andy, I've been meaning to ask you if you do episodic television shows, and if you do, how do you handle working with SD commercials with your XDCAM HD workflow?

_______________________________

Wayne Carey
Schazam Productions
http://www.schazamproductions.com
http://blogs.creativecow.net/waynecarey


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Andy Mees
Re: F70 - Firewire out or HDSDI out?
on Oct 19, 2007 at 1:03:56 pm

[Wayne Carey] "Andy, I've been meaning to ask you if you do episodic television shows, and if you do, how do you handle working with SD commercials with your XDCAM HD workflow?"

not regular episodic Wayne, news, current affairs and short form documentary stuff mostly. XDCAM HD is our primary aquisition format, some HDCAM some HDV. the field editing is done with FCP with archive back to XDCAM disc, but once it gets back in house all the editing happens on GVG's HD edit systems, any footage from SD gets upconverted at ingest.


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davidb
Re: F70 - Firewire out or HDSDI out?
on Oct 18, 2007 at 2:23:21 pm

Thanks Andy and Wayne for the experienced input.
When I can actually touch, feel and use these devices, I think I'll get it. We will have an AJA io HD, so I am hoping we can just capture Beta/DVCAM footage and up convert thru that device.
We do not have on order the optional PDBK-104 board.

The same goes for HD SDI out of the AJA back to the F75.


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Wayne Carey
Re: F70 - Firewire out or HDSDI out?
on Oct 18, 2007 at 2:42:26 pm

[davidb] "We will have an AJA io HD, so I am hoping we can just capture Beta/DVCAM footage and up convert thru that device.
We do not have on order the optional PDBK-104 board.

The same goes for HD SDI out of the AJA back to the F75. "


Good going! The option board isn't necessary for you since you're getting an AJA IO HD. The great thing about this box is any input will travel through any output. Awesome for making dubs.

_______________________________

Wayne Carey
Schazam Productions
http://www.schazamproductions.com
http://blogs.creativecow.net/waynecarey


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Wayne Carey
Re: F70 - Firewire out or HDSDI out?
on Oct 18, 2007 at 12:41:49 pm

[davidb] "Did you mean to say these codecs are not the most friendly to work with?

Either way I hear what you're saying, but isn't one of the big advantages with file based work flow is that you don't have to log and capture, and you just drag the clips over?
I really don't know.
I am very interested in this workflow as we have just purchased FCPro and the PDW F75 with a Sony Ex Camera and plan to put our express card data onto XDCAM HD discs. "


Yeah, I know.... We aren't doing what is intended by Sony.

Let me explain myself.

We are shooting XDCAM HD in HQ quality (35 mbits). We also use HDV cameras as our secondary cameras for our fishing shows. Now, for hunting we use primarily the HDV because of its size. Mixing formats in FCP is now possible but you still have to render all of the clips into one codec before writing them to disc. Therefore.... in order to save time and hard drive space, we capture everything into DVCProHD.

We are looking into the XDCAM EX ourselves but we are still struggling with the idea of the Express cards and having to carry a computer into the field to dump the footage to the hard drive or purchasing the PDW-U1 portable deck and dumping to disc after the shoot. It just adds more work in the field.


[davidb] "Then we could ingest the footage as files and edit the MXF files. If we had to mix some HDV or up rezed Beta SP could you transcode those files to MXF so the timeline would be happy and then archive back to the F75 thru firewire and the original MXF files would stay in their native format.
Except for the fact that they started as MP4 files with the EX camera. "


I think you confusing yourself with the file names. This is Sony's down fall. Everything XDCAM is some form of MPEG2. The file names that end with MXF and MP4, these are just wrappers that the software puts on these files to tell you that they are different forms of MPEG2. Yes, I know it gets confusing. The HD version of MXF is a form of HDV's MPEG2, the MP4 files that the EX uses is another flavor of the HDV MPEG2. They are different but similar in the basics. The SD XDCAM uses MXF also but they are IMX codec files. Sony isn't known for being consistent, just cutting edge.

In your case, now that FCP can use multiple formats is to digest whatever is most comfortable for you and then render everything to XDCAM HD for output thru firewire. The nice thing about FCP is you can do whatever you want or need. Don't be afraid to come up with a new workflow that works for your company.

As for transcoding everything to XDCAM HD... I've not had much luck with capturing to it without major issues. BUT, rendering to it on the timeline is never a problem.


_______________________________

Wayne Carey
Schazam Productions
http://www.schazamproductions.com
http://blogs.creativecow.net/waynecarey


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Borjis
Re: F70 - Firewire out or HDSDI out?
on Oct 20, 2007 at 11:25:39 pm

[Wayne Carey] "in order to save time and hard drive space, we capture everything into DVCProHD."

Wayne I don't understand you on this.

Before I explain, I'll say that I'm posting a tv series right now that uses XDCAM HD and HDV as well. And I also capture to DVCPRO-HD because I know I can do it successfully. I have not done an XDCAM HD only roundtrip and even though its said by people that use it that it works, I couldn't take that chance initially.

But what I have found is that by capturing it in another codec and not just copying the xdcam data over, surely that takes longer. maybe a third longer. And it takes much less room.

1 Hour of XDCAM HD in the HQ mode is about 25GB.
That same hour of DVCPRO-HD is about 50GB.

How could it be more efficient for time and disk space with that in mind?

I'm considering going xdcam hd only for future shows but I've got to test it first before I make that commitment.



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Borjis
Re: F70 - Firewire out or HDSDI out?
on Oct 20, 2007 at 11:27:57 pm

[Borjis] "And it takes much less room."

that should read "Takes twice as much room" DVCPRO-HD that is.




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Wayne Carey
Re: F70 - Firewire out or HDSDI out?
on Oct 22, 2007 at 12:33:03 pm

[Borjis] "But what I have found is that by capturing it in another codec and not just copying the xdcam data over, surely that takes longer. maybe a third longer. And it takes much less room.

1 Hour of XDCAM HD in the HQ mode is about 25GB.
That same hour of DVCPRO-HD is about 50GB.

How could it be more efficient for time and disk space with that in mind?
"


You're right it does sound silly. Let me explain.

In our work for every one hour of disc or HDV tape we may only have 20 minutes of footage to draw. Well, if I import the entire disc, it takes more space in the long run. Yes, I can go thru all of the clip set in-points and out-points, but it becomes the same process of Log and Capture. Then after I do this I'll need to add notes or rename clips so that anyone else could understand what the clips are.

Do this make better sense? Oh yeah.... you can forget about the long conforming process after your done with XDCAM HD before you send back to disc. That time that I may have wasted on the front end is eaten up on the back end. Besides, have you tried to work with XDDCAM HD in AfterEffects?

_______________________________

Wayne Carey
Schazam Productions
http://www.schazamproductions.com
http://blogs.creativecow.net/waynecarey


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Borjis
Re: F70 - Firewire out or HDSDI out?
on Oct 22, 2007 at 3:15:01 pm

[Wayne Carey] "Do this make better sense? Oh yeah.... you can forget about the long conforming process after your done with XDCAM HD before you send back to disc. That time that I may have wasted on the front end is eaten up on the back end. Besides, have you tried to work with XDDCAM HD in AfterEffects?"

putting it that way, yes.

Thats exactly what I'm doing right now. When the XDCAM HD USB external drive comes out I may go XDCAM HD only though.

But I am concerned with your last sentance.

Is it a problem getting XDCAM HD into after effects?

HDV comes in fine, so why can't a quicktime wrapped XDCAM HD file come in?



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Wayne Carey
Re: F70 - Firewire out or HDSDI out?
on Oct 22, 2007 at 3:32:24 pm

[Borjis] "HDV comes in fine, so why can't a quicktime wrapped XDCAM HD file come in?"

Well... XDCAM HD comes in fine.... but don't expect for it to come out of AfterEffects as XDCAM HD. It will not work. I end up rendering everything to the Animation codec for the best quality when working with XDCAM HD.

_______________________________

Wayne Carey
Schazam Productions
http://www.schazamproductions.com
http://blogs.creativecow.net/waynecarey


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Borjis
Re: F70 - Firewire out or HDSDI out?
on Oct 22, 2007 at 5:35:26 pm


I just searched the AE forum and found those posts.

thanks for the headsup.




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