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Downloading From The Sony EX

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Michael Slowe
Downloading From The Sony EX
on Oct 8, 2007 at 2:21:50 pm

I have been reading the EX thread and have handled the camera here in the UK. My main problem is how to get video into my Media 100 edit suite. There is a direct HD-SDI output but the audio is embedded and that is a problem for my hardware. SD should be no problem however and the comments about how soon we will really need HD are interesting.

Also someone wonders whether the down scale quality with the EX is as good as with the HDV Z1. It should be better since it is starting with a better quality image (1/2'' block, proper 1920 X 1080, better lens etc). Has anyone had experience of the AJA 'splitter' for embedded audio? I would need one to edit in HD with Media 100 but it is expensive ($1,000). Anyone with brilliant ideas out there? I could of course download the files and then fiddle about importing them but I'd much rather do as I do currently and acquire video into the edit suite directly.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Downloading From The Sony EX
on Oct 8, 2007 at 7:04:48 pm

I'm sure many NLEs will include ways to import the files directly (MPEG2 wrapped in MP4 - interestingly enough).

You might want to contact the folks who currently develop Media 100 (Boris I believe). It might be a good question to ask on the Media 100 Cow forum.

These days it's quite common for SDI to carry Video, Audio, Time Code.


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Michael Slowe
Re: Downloading From The Sony EX
on Oct 8, 2007 at 7:34:08 pm

Craig, I already posted everywhere including E Mails to the Media 100 support and sales people. I am a long time user and supporter of Media 100 and want to stay with them but they are not at all encouraging on this issue. They seem to doubt that there will be much demand!!! I explained that I (and many others including you) think that the EX is the biggest thing since sliced bread (there's an old saying) and I am waiting with some impatience for the day they see it happening.

There is a Sony free download of software that transcodes the .MXF files into .MOV files that I can then import into Media 100 but that is through Quick Time Pro and it all seems a bit of a performance. It would though enable editing in HD which I do already by converting HDV to uncompressed HD through the excellent Convergent Design HD-Connect.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Downloading From The Sony EX
on Oct 8, 2007 at 8:13:25 pm

[Michael Slowe] "hey seem to doubt that there will be much demand!!!"
Maybe they meant they didn't think there'd be much demand for Media 100s these days.

Media 100 has been resurrected so many times I could have sworn I saw a zombie carrying one in Sci Fi Channel feature.

Well I guess that's when you know it's time to move on to another NLE. The EX isn't using the MXF wrapper (so I've read). It's MPEG2 in an MP4 wrapper.

HD World is in NYC on OCT 10,11 (in two days) so I'm hopping Sony will have one there as well as someone at the both who can answer questions. These days I'm having mixed results with booth critters knowing what they're talking about at trade shows.


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jiri vrozina
Re: Downloading From The Sony EX
on Oct 8, 2007 at 8:47:48 pm

[Michael Slowe] "Also someone wonders whether the down scale quality with the EX is as good as with the HDV Z1. It should be better since it is starting with a better quality image (1/2'' block, proper 1920 X 1080, better lens etc)."

Not really....espeacially if one records on to highly compressed HD codec and then downconverts.




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Craig Seeman
Re: Downloading From The Sony EX
on Oct 8, 2007 at 8:56:22 pm

I strongly expect that 35mbps VBR with 1920x1080 (and that can be 1080p not just 1080i) source from 1/2" CMOS chips will look better than the Z1 with 25mbps CBR and 1/3" CCDs.

We need to see how the downconvert looks coming out of the HD-SDI port and that may vary depending doing it "live" vs off the compressed video on the cards.


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Don Greening
Re: Downloading From The Sony EX
on Oct 8, 2007 at 9:17:52 pm

[Craig Seeman] "We need to see how the downconvert looks coming out of the HD-SDI port and that may vary depending doing it "live" vs off the compressed video on the cards."

I wan't going to jump in on this thread but........why not just ask the folks who use the big boy XDCAMs and see what their thoughts are with regard to the SD version of anything they've down-converted from HD? They may already know that an SDI downconvert is better/the same/worse as a software down-conversion.

As far as my idea for workflow goes - the next update of FCP will apparently have the ability to capture XDCAM right from the capture window. I would then capture HD and edit in an XDCAM HD timeline, render and output an HD master to a QT movie. Just about everything I do goes to SD DVD right now, so I would use Compressor to make a 16:9 SD MPEG2 version for DVD Studio Pro. Done like dinner (I hope).

- Don



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Craig Seeman
Re: Downloading From The Sony EX
on Oct 8, 2007 at 9:38:50 pm

Since nearly everything I do is going to SD DVD, I'm thinking of Flip4Mac Pipeline which can take SD from SDI and realtime downconvert to DVCPro50 and IMX50.

I'd like to find out if the time code will match. If so, then I can edit in SD and "auto assemble" HD from the SD timeline if I need to do an HD version.

I suspect the HD to SD downconvert in Compressor (which should like nice) may be very slow.

Basically since SD still is dominant amongst my clients I'm thinking if I can convert to SD realtime and auto assemble HD as needed that would be the fastest workflow.


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jiri vrozina
Re: Downloading From The Sony EX
on Oct 8, 2007 at 10:12:25 pm

[Don Greening] ".why not just ask the folks who use the big boy XDCAMs and see what their thoughts are with regard to the SD version of anything they've down-converted from HD?"

I am not the big boy but i own f330 xdcam hd.
It records DVCAM as well on disk,quality of that is worse then from DSR-450 DVCAM camcorder.
Downconversion from F330 XDCAM HD 35 to SD/DV is worse then shooting on DSR-450,but it is better then Z1 oringinal.

Original XDCAM HD 35 footage from F330 is OK...18 and 25 is no good.

To sum it all up:HVX200 is better then Z1 and EX1 will be better then HVX200 and 2 years later Panasonic will have HVX300 with INTRA codec and megapixel bloc and 4 years later.........

Shoulder cameras are still better but not any people want to carry them and pay for them.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Downloading From The Sony EX
on Oct 8, 2007 at 10:40:46 pm

I'd thought I'd note that DSR-450 is a 2/3" CCD chip camera so I'm not surprised its SD looks better than the 330 in many cases.

If I downconverted from EX1 it would be to 4:2:2 (DVCPro50, IMX50 maybe) not DVCam (4:1:1) so that might not make any difference superficially but I that might help if one is compositing in SD.

I've heard from other XDCAM users that 18mbps is so poor that "no one" really uses that.

We "KNOW" that Panasonic is going to have Intra on their next camera (my gut tells me). I kinds miss the days when one got a good BetaSP rig and was set for a few years.


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jiri vrozina
Re: Downloading From The Sony EX
on Oct 9, 2007 at 12:07:59 am

[Craig Seeman] "If I downconverted from EX1 it would be to 4:2:2 (DVCPro50, IMX50 maybe) not DVCam (4:1:1) so that might not make any difference superficially but I that might help if one is compositing in SD."

How do you make picture from EX to DVCPRO50 4:2:2 if EX records 4:2:0?

[Craig Seeman] "I'd thought I'd note that DSR-450 is a 2/3" CCD chip camera so I'm not surprised its SD looks better than the 330 in many cases."

F330 has got 1/2' 1,500 000 pixel block with decent processing.DSR-450 has got megapixel Digi Beta Power head inside."Problem" is f330 is HD camera not SD camera.

[Craig Seeman] "We "KNOW" that Panasonic is going to have Intra on their next camera (my gut tells me).

HPX-2000 and HPX-3000 - great cameras!



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Craig Seeman
Re: Downloading From The Sony EX
on Oct 9, 2007 at 1:22:27 am

[jiri vrozina] "How do you make picture from EX to DVCPRO50 4:2:2 if EX records 4:2:0?
"


Flip4Mac Pipeline may be able to convert SDI out, which is 4:2:2 to DVCPro50. Now I know, of course, that if coming from the card is going from 4:2:0 to 4:2:2 "uncompressed" of the SDI so that's not going to be the same as 4:2:2 source. On the other hand "live" out of the SDI is before MPEG2 gets its hands on things and that would be 4:2:2 from the source.

At least coming from the card one is still going to end up with realtime downconvert to DVCPro50 4:2:2 so one can composite without any further issues (compared to 4:2:0).


[jiri vrozina] "HPX-2000 and HPX-3000 - great cameras!
"


I'm thinking on Intra that competes in the EX1 price space. HVX300 NAB 2008 maybe.


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Michael Slowe
Re: Downloading From The Sony EX
on Oct 9, 2007 at 9:17:38 am

Great thread fellows from my original question, thanks.

Two points. Firstly Craig, Media 100 is reviving spectacularly under the command of Boris. I have been cutting HD on mine for 2 years now and there is nothing I want to do that I can't (EXCEPT take in the new XDCAM Ex media!!). It so happens that I am flying from London to New York on Wednesday, can you please tell me where the HD Fair is located, I may be able to escape from my wife for a couple of hours?

And Don, I can't see how the DSR originals would look better than Z1 originals. I filmed on the older DSR 300 (similar specs?) for some years and find that the Z1 gives better picture quality when downscaled to SD but of course with all the disadvantages as well (small chips, big DOF, poor light performance etc etc). As to downscaling I found that when making DVD's BitVice is by far the best encoder and it does a very high class downscale HD to SD.

I may have to take media in SD down the SDI lead if I decide to go with the XDCAM Ex and want to continue editing in Media 100, like everyone is saying, when will we be exhibiting in HD?


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Craig Seeman
Re: Downloading From The Sony EX
on Oct 9, 2007 at 11:03:50 am

[Michael Slowe] "Two points. Firstly Craig, Media 100 is reviving spectacularly under the command of Boris. I have been cutting HD on mine for 2 years now and there is nothing I want to do that I can't (EXCEPT take in the new XDCAM Ex media!!)."

But I would be concerned if someone states that an NLE is not seeking to support a format because they don't think the demand will be high when it comes to a camera like the EX1. In many respects I consider support key to the viability of an NLE. This position can eventually devastate an NLE.


[Michael Slowe] "can you please tell me where the HD Fair is located"
Here's the link
http://www.hdworldshow.com/
Jacob Javits Convention Center - 655 West 34th Street (between 11th and 12 Avenue)
Oct 10 9am-6pm
Oct 11 10am-5:30pm

[Michael Slowe] "I may have to take media in SD down the SDI lead if I decide to go with the XDCAM Ex and want to continue editing in Media 100,"

That's why I'm interested in Telelstream/Flip4Mac Pipeline. Of course you can edit the SDI out as 4:2:2 10 bit uncompressed but I'm thinking it will be less taxing on my system resources if I can realtime convert to DVCPro50 or IMX50. My ideal is edit in SD and autoassemble in HD as needed (and avoid time consuming HD to SD downconvert in software).


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Don Greening
Re: Downloading From The Sony EX
on Oct 9, 2007 at 2:51:32 pm

[Michael Slowe] " As to downscaling I found that when making DVD's BitVice is by far the best encoder and it does a very high class downscale HD to SD.
"


I've been using BitVice for quite a while now. As we speak, as a matter of fact.

Here's hoping you have a safe trip to NYC and are able to make it to the trade show for a couple of hours. I'm also hoping your wife doesn't look over your shoulder when you type out your posts :)

- Don



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Michael Slowe
Re: Downloading From The Sony EX
on Oct 9, 2007 at 3:46:01 pm

No Don, she doesn't do that! But you didn't say where the trade show is being held in NYC and I fly in the morning. If your'e still on line could you give me an address?

Thanks.


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Michael Slowe
Re: Downloading From The Sony EX
on Oct 9, 2007 at 3:47:47 pm

Sorry Don, Craig already posted the address.


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