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Martin
Sony CineAlta HD FAMILY PDW-F330
on Jan 28, 2006 at 12:26:42 pm

The Sony XDCAM PDW-F350 camcorder can record 1080i video in three data recording rates: 25 Mbps, plus 35 Mbps and 18 Mbps.at 4.2.2....
The Panasonic HVX 200 samples at 100mbs with 4.2.2...With 100mbs...4.2.2. This is better quality than 35mbs? Or Is the Sony cam using some magical compression.
Anyway whats best, what should I buy or what would you buy Sony or the Panny?

Thanks
Martin


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jehf85
Re: Sony CineAlta HD FAMILY PDW-F330
on Jan 28, 2006 at 6:02:25 pm

I would love to know the same. Sony tells me new technology allows them to put more into less space, but I'm not buying into it. There has to be a tradeoff of some sort. I'd hate to come home with XDCAM HD footage that I can't touch in post because it's so compressed.

At the moment I would rather go for the Panasonic models that shoot DVCPRO HD (the Varicam seems to do a great job, eager to see what the cheap HVX200 can do).


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Michael Brennan
Re: Sony CineAlta HD FAMILY PDW-F330
on Jan 29, 2006 at 6:16:14 am


Sony camera head is better as is its lens.
But Panasonic recording is better onto the P2 cards 4:2:2



Mike Brennan


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jehf85
Re: Sony CineAlta HD FAMILY PDW-F330
on Jan 29, 2006 at 1:34:46 pm

So if you use an adapter for film lenses on your Panasonic, you're better off.


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David Cherniack
Re: Sony CineAlta HD FAMILY PDW-F330
on Jan 31, 2006 at 1:10:01 pm

[Martin] "Anyway whats best, what should I buy or what would you buy Sony or the Panny?"

I suggest you wait to see it. Varicam at 24p is 40Mbs not 100. The Sony codec should be FAR more efficient than 15 year old discrete cosine compression. But the proof will be in the pud'.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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esp
Re: Sony CineAlta HD FAMILY PDW-F330
by
on Jan 31, 2006 at 7:25:17 pm

Sony uses in the XDCAM HD, the HDV compression (MPEG2 4:2:0) but with the option of a higher bitrate than HDV, that is 33MBits. The rule of the thumb is that MPEG2 is at least 2.5X more efficient than DCT of the DVCPROHD which makes them almost equal(2.5X33=82.5 vs 100 for DVCPROHD). But the DVCPROHD has the advantage of being 4:2:2 so its better suited for bluesceen shootings. On the other hand MPEG2 compression is used for TV playout so XDCAM HD will not suffer from recompression artefacts at least within a network environment (and this is the reason of the wide acceptance of XDCAM SD).
The funny thing is that the XDCAM disc is capable of 50Mbits MPEG2 in the SD version but Sony decided to limit the bitrate of the HD variant to 33Mbits. In my opinion Sony was afraid that it will cannibalize the HDCAM sales if (50X2.5=125 vs 135 for HDCAM) it went for the full capabilities of the format. Bear in mind that Sony claims that XDCAM 50Mbits in Standard Def is indistinguishable from DigiBetacam which carries a double price tag and in effect has put it out of market.

Nevertheless I have the funny feeling that the Thomson Infinity camera (debut at NAB 06), will force Sony to come out with a 2/3inch XDCAM HD 50Mbits MPEG2 camera (if not higher) by summer and in my opinion the days of the HDCAM are numbered. Only the HDCAM SR will remain unchallenged because the optical disc -if I'm not mistaken- tops at about 100Mbits minus at least 20-30Mbits for overhead errors which is a far cry (even multiplied by 2.5) from the 880Mbits HDCAM SR.

Excuse me if the orthography is not letter perfect, but English is not my native language.



espgr@yahoo.com



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esp
Re: Sony CineAlta HD FAMILY PDW-F330
by
on Feb 1, 2006 at 9:43:56 am

Addition to the my previous post.

Summing up the differences:

XDCAM HD: 1/2 inch CCD 33MBits MPEG2 4:2:0 compression, Optical disc, exchangeable lens, shoulder mount, heavier, USD 16800 or 25000 for HDSDI out and variable shutter
+ 7000 for lens

DVCPROHD P2: 1/3inch CCD 100MBits DCT 4:2:2 compression, P2 card, fixed lens, palmcorder, lighter, USD 10000

MPEG2 is more efficient than DCT by a factor of 2.5 so P2 has a slight edge in quality and since is 4:2:2 better chroma key capability. On the other hand if going through networks MPEG2 needs one less compression stage (from DCT to MPEG2 for final transmition).

1/2 versus 1/3 means more pixels and better low light perfomance for the XDCAM. Also less depth of focus for 1/2 inch CCD so more film like.

exchangeable lens and the ability to use 2/3 inch lenses with an adapter is bonus for XDCAM. Also shouldermount style camera and pro type lens configuration will appeal more to seasoned camera operators. On the other hand P2 is lighter, smaller and more manageable. At the bottom end is an entirely up to your style of filming.


P2 vs Optical disc againg depends on what you're going to shoot but personally I find a big workflow issue with P2 (i.e. what do you give to customers? where do you archive whether on location or projects than need to be edited later? etc.).

espgr@yahoo.com



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David Cherniack
Re: Sony CineAlta HD FAMILY PDW-F330
on Feb 2, 2006 at 3:32:46 am

[esp] "where do you archive whether on location or projects than need to be edited later? etc"

The archiving problem of P2 is a major reason why most producers will shy away from it - at least until economical solutions in time and money become possible.



David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Brett Sherman
Re: Sony CineAlta HD FAMILY PDW-F330
on May 17, 2006 at 10:55:38 am

Panasonic has really done a good job at getting misinformation out there. "HDV is bad" etc. The fact that anyone is even thinking that the HVX-100 compares to the F330 shows the effectiveness of the Panasonic marketing and slavish loyalty of DVX-100 owners (I'm one too). I love my DVX-100, but won't be getting an HVX-100 because the workflow seems impossible and EXPENSIVE.

XDCAM uses intraframe compression, so it's a more efficient compression scheme than the DVCProHD. While XDCAM is similar in bit-rate to HDV, it has a variable bit-rate which makes it a lot more efficient. Reviews state that they've tried everything they can to get the XDCAM codec to break up, but they can't. And Sony has actually come out with an exceptional workflow with the optical discs.

Let's talk cost, since P2 is not a final archiving storage, you'll need to store on hard disks. That means you'll need two sets of hard disks (one for backup). With the Sony system the optical disc is the backup. Additionally, with DVCProHD you'll need 3X the amount of disc space and more expensive RAID systems. So minimally, your hard drives will cost 6X more with DVCProHD. So if in your mini-DV workflow you spend $3000 a year in hard disks, you will have made up the price difference between the F-330 and the HVX-100 in one year! It might take 3 years at the most to make up the price difference.


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