FORUMS: list search recent posts

10-bit monitoring on super basic coloring setup

COW Forums : Blackmagic Design

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Tom Durham
10-bit monitoring on super basic coloring setup
on Dec 27, 2016 at 5:04:47 pm

Greetings Folks,

For a little indie, I'm building a hopefully not-awful post machine that can do half decent coloring. Will color in Premiere or Resolve. Windows machine, GTX 1080. Shooting most likely 6k Red RAW. (Or even possibly nice flat ProRes from BM Production Camera. Maybe RAW from BMPC.) Will color on LG Cinema 31MU97-B or HP z27x. Need to monitor and output to DCI P3 and Rec 709. Can't go any more expensive. Would like to get 10-bit output into the monitor. (Unless I really don't need it. Thoughts?)

Anyway, the GTX 1080 is awesome for processing, but since it's Direct X, I understand that Adobe (Open GL) will not take 10-bit output from it. So apparently I need a blackmagic card for monitoring. QUESTION: Will the "DeckLink Mini Monitor 4K" do the trick? What limitations does it have? Any workflow advice?

THANKS!!

-Tom




================================================
TOMDURHAM.COM
Writing, Indie Filmmaking
Sci-fi, Fantasy, Anything Else That's Cool

http://www.95ers.com
http://www.SpaceAceMedia.com


Return to posts index

Chris Wright
Re: 10-bit monitoring on super basic coloring setup
on Dec 28, 2016 at 1:04:25 am

cinema DNG metadata isn't fully supported in premiere. it also force interprets it into rec. 709. 3:1 compression isn't supported at all. sequence import isn't supported as well.


premiere won't color manage P3 unless its jpeg2000. it will interpret everything into rec. 709. you would need a monitor that supports loading LUTs or a special transform LUTs.

opengl isn't supported in premiere so only quadro cards or blackmagic will output 10 bit. the new 1080gtx will only preview 8 bit. the older quadro cards are incompatible with cc 2015.

to run 6k full will require a new 8 core I-7 i7-6900k overlocked to 4.2GHZ with 64GB Ram, 2500MB/sec hard disk speed for multiple layers. Even 6k compressed Redcode is 244MB/sec per clip. thunderbolt sas/raid/backup etc.

resolve will require use several graphics cards with 8GB RAM.

if you don't plan on spending at least 2-3 grand on a computer, I suggest looking at the proxy workflows. It will take much, much longer to transcode though.


Return to posts index

Tom Durham
Re: 10-bit monitoring on super basic coloring setup
on Dec 28, 2016 at 1:36:07 am

Thanks for the info!

The machine itself is pretty slick. 10-core overclocked i7's. Fast raided SSD's. GPU is a GTX 1080, but I'm getting a Blackmagic for the 10-bit output to monitor. Don't know if I should get "Intensity Pro 4k" or "Mini Monitor 4k"? Mini Monitor has HDMI 2.0. Don't know if that makes a difference?

So, if I'm understanding:
1- I shoot RED and stay RAW on the timeline
2- Premiere interprets everything into a REC 709 color space sends that out the Blackmagic into the monitor.
3- I need a LUT to spread the REC 709 into DCI-P3
4- my reference monitor needs to DCI-P3 calibrated
5- then I can color (assume I color in Premiere)
6- when I render a master, I need to bake the LUT (from line 3) into the render
7- in theory, on other calibrated DCI-P3 devices, it will look like it looked on my reference monitor

I'm sure I'm missing something critical here. Head spinning! Thanks for any help/corrections!




================================================
TOMDURHAM.COM
Writing, Indie Filmmaking
Sci-fi, Fantasy, Anything Else That's Cool

http://www.95ers.com
http://www.SpaceAceMedia.com


Return to posts index


Chris Wright
Re: 10-bit monitoring on super basic coloring setup
on Dec 29, 2016 at 6:28:28 am

you're right about everything. the only thing I see worrysome is that grading in a fake P3 transform won't give you any extra color over rec. 709 if that is premiere's maximum color palette. it is not a professional coloring tool. davinci will color manage all the way through like after effects does.


Return to posts index

Tom Durham
Re: 10-bit monitoring on super basic coloring setup
on Dec 29, 2016 at 3:20:26 pm

Sounds like I'm very slowly beginning to understand! Big thanks to everyone's help/time.

Quick follow-up question on Premiere and REC709 output...

[Chris Wright] "you're right about everything. the only thing I see worrysome is that grading in a fake P3 transform won't give you any extra color over rec. 709 if that is premiere's maximum color palette. "

So, you're saying that Premiere's REC709 limitations will simply bottleneck the whole process. Would that apply even if I:

- used a LUT box external to the computer and loaded in a REC709 to P3 LUT
or
- used a monitor that could load that LUT

It seems like if Premiere is interpreting to REC709, and not actually chucking color info, that should work?

(PS. I will be going out 10-bit via Blackmagic Mini Monitor 4k to the reference monitor.)


Return to posts index

Chris Wright
Re: 10-bit monitoring on super basic coloring setup
on Dec 29, 2016 at 5:13:37 pm

you are correct again. mercury transmit sends data in rec. 709, as does dynamic link. premiere's color engine can work in float via max bit depth but the color palette is limited to low quality rec. 709 unless you import metadated jpeg200, exr, or h.264 hdr footage. even cinema dng places an un-revocable rec. 709 burned in color.


Return to posts index


Tom Durham
Re: 10-bit monitoring on super basic coloring setup
on Dec 29, 2016 at 5:41:27 pm

Thanks Chris. To super clarify... you're saying that even if I use a LUT-box or a LUT-able monitor, it doesn't really matter because Premiere is STILL CHUCKING color info? Meaning that my P3 might look okay, but it's still fake because it's extrapolating from a REC709 color space.

And even if I'm working in float with RAW or nice ProRes 4444 10-bit footage, I might be getting 10-bit accuracy, but the pallet is hard-limited to REC709/sRGB?

Forgetting about monitoring, you're saying that EVEN IN THE RENDER, Premiere is limited to the REC709 pallet? I hope that AE is not limited to that.

I'm a big fan of Adobe, but this is critical information that I doubt many people understand...


Return to posts index

Chris Wright
Re: 10-bit monitoring on super basic coloring setup
on Dec 29, 2016 at 9:20:04 pm
Last Edited By Chris Wright on Dec 29, 2016 at 9:43:20 pm

premiere's render engine has two render output settings.
1. rec. 709
2. J2K only HDR ST2084 rec. 2020/P3 PQ/h.264 HDR
https://mixinglight.com/portfolio/hdr-essentials-getting-setup-in-premiere-...

All your RAW media(which are non-HDR) will not only be blended inside a limited colorspace, but the Rec. 709 will get also get burned in via rendering(except PQ J2K) and you will clip your P3 colors you spent all that time on grading.

The really hard question to answer is if color clipping occurs in the color engine itself. The answer to this is complex because technically, premiere can handle importing PSD's in Adobe RGB(which is wide gamut) and can handle HDR Rec. 2020 h.264 metadata'd stuff. The real issue is how premiere is interpreting the media.

For example: if you import h.264 HDR with wrong metadata flag, premiere will hard clip everything and blow out your sky. It isn't going to recover that information if you try to render out HDR again. It's gone for good. So, it seems, the engine CAN handle higher color management, it just won't give you the choice to. It's in essence, hard coded in for special exceptions.


After Effects doesn't have this problem because Adobe recommends setting the project working space to the LARGEST gamut that you have inside your project. This protects against clipping out of value colors from say, Pro-Photo if your output is also Pro-photo because a Working Space of sRGB would clip Pro-photo inside the color engine before it even got to the render engine.

If we had the equavalent in premiere, then the LUT/color profile transform would work. Unfortutately, a fake, low quality conversion won't really get you anywhere. Information is lost forever. You can go down in quality, not up.
http://www.red.com/learn/red-101/cinema-color-management

(A very special separate color engine)
"Exporting J2K MXF files in PQ space

Premiere Pro's J2K exporter now includes a 12-bit PQ option. When you select the RGB 4:4:4 12-Bit PQ option from the Chroma and Depth pop-up menu, a new drop-down list allows you to select the Color Space: Rec709, Rec2020, or DCI P3."
https://helpx.adobe.com/premiere-pro/using/whats-new-November-2015.html


some more nasty color bugs:

bug#1: Lumetri's saturation distorts colors into yellow
http://www.learningvideo.com/premiere-pro-cc-saturation/


bug#2: prores 444 render banding
https://forums.adobe.com/message/9202682#9202682


Return to posts index

Tom Durham
Re: 10-bit monitoring on super basic coloring setup
on Dec 30, 2016 at 6:35:57 am

Epically awesome info. Thanks so much for your time and expertise Chris!


Return to posts index


andy patterson
Re: 10-bit monitoring on super basic coloring setup
on Dec 29, 2016 at 12:19:42 pm

Do you need 4K previews or just 10 Bit color? I like using my intensity Shuttle but any of the products from AJA, Blackmagic Design and Matrox should work OK. I use it for clients with interlaced video. The video link below might be worth watching.







Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]