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Rick Lang
Blackmagic Cinema Camera - edit workflow using 12 bit RAW CinemaDNG
on Apr 25, 2012 at 9:28:07 pm

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/blackmagiccinemacamera/workflow/

Blackmagic Design specifically mentions it’s new cinema camera is “perfect" for use with Apple’s Final Cut Pro X editor. I understand if one selects the camera’s ProRes option for recording or output, this would be true enough for processing 10-bit 4:2:2 video. But Blackmagic’s DaVinci Resolve 9.0 can apparently process the 12-bit CinemaDNG files. I’m not clear if FCP X can handle the CinemaDNG files though so it would appear the ProRes option is the best it can do.

Does anyone know if FCP X will be able to use the RAW CinemaDNG files either natively or via a plugin?

If the answer is “no” today (or in July when the camera is available), I suppose it’s always a possibility in the future. An internet search didn’t help much as CinemaDNG appears to have a fairly slow adoption rate in the industry since it’s proposal April 2008. Perhaps this camera will be an impetus for accelerated adoption.

Thanks.

Rick Lang

iMac 27” 2.8GHz i7 16GB


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Juan Salvo
Re: Blackmagic Cinema Camera - edit workflow using 12 bit RAW CinemaDNG
on Apr 26, 2012 at 2:53:23 am

The answer is no today for sure. When it's released... Probably not. The camera comes with a resolve license, and the thinking is that you should use resolve to process dailies. So you would open the DNG files in resolve, render out with a lut for 709. Edit in your nle of choice, then recon form in resolve with the raw files, do your final grade. Then render out for delivery.

Could they make a plugin for direct support in fcpx? Probably. Will they? I dunno, don't think you need it personally,

online editor | colorist | VFX | BD author

http://JuanSalvo.com


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Rick Lang
Re: Blackmagic Cinema Camera - edit workflow using 12 bit RAW CinemaDNG
on Apr 26, 2012 at 4:54:44 am

Thank you for your answer. At least that's one feasible and reasonable approach if the NLE doesn't provide native access. And relying on DaVinci Resolve and Media Express will ensure compatibility.

Rick Lang

iMac 27” 2.8GHz i7 16GB


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Tim Schultz
Re: Blackmagic Cinema Camera - edit workflow using 12 bit RAW CinemaDNG
on Apr 26, 2012 at 5:12:48 pm

What I'm most curious about is the true round tripping. So I shoot RAW, I go into Reslove to pre-process dailies because no client wants to watch grayed footage while cutting, I then edit with my producer/director but this isn't the final "grade" we really want simply processed dailies. So when I finish, how in AVID or FCP do I then take my timeline referring to those processed files that I've been cutting with (in DNxHD or ProRes) and tell Resolve to look at my master RAW files with the pre-processed grade information that should be saved some how so that I can do the final color timing quickly and efficiently from my final edited timeline but still retain all of the quality of the original RAW files I've kept around for mastering? Cause shooting in DNxHD or ProRes if I'm in a pinch is great but I don't think that's what high end pros are going to want to do with this camera, I think the workflow, if it can be done, would be the norm.

__
Mac Pro 3,1 2.8ghz 8-Core, Nvidia GTX 285 (S1), BMD HD Extreme 3D (S3)


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Juan Salvo
Re: Blackmagic Cinema Camera - edit workflow using 12 bit RAW CinemaDNG
on Apr 26, 2012 at 5:26:21 pm

In resolve you just force conform to the folder containing your raw media. Done. Assuming you didn't change TC & reel info in the qt dailies you made.

online editor | colorist | VFX | BD author

http://JuanSalvo.com


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Tim Schultz
Re: Blackmagic Cinema Camera - edit workflow using 12 bit RAW CinemaDNG
on Apr 26, 2012 at 5:33:44 pm

But that's just going to get me back to the unprocessed files. If my pre-grage was acceptable for even 20% of the final product I'd want to retain that information. I'm wondering how that is saved? XML for FCP and AAF for Avid? Do those NLEs have the ability to pass on that kind of non-destructive information back to Resolve if I do this force link you speak of?

__
Mac Pro 3,1 2.8ghz 8-Core, Nvidia GTX 285 (S1), BMD HD Extreme 3D (S3)


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Juan Salvo
Re: Blackmagic Cinema Camera - edit workflow using 12 bit RAW CinemaDNG
on Apr 26, 2012 at 5:39:33 pm

The raw to 709 is a standard lut. You can easily apply it in resolve.

Or if you did more complex grades, you can save them in resolve and then reapply them into the session, or use the color trace function.

The answer to your question is yes... In various different ways. its almost as of resolve was specifically designed for just this kind of work. ;-)

online editor | colorist | VFX | BD author

http://JuanSalvo.com


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Tim Schultz
Re: Blackmagic Cinema Camera - edit workflow using 12 bit RAW CinemaDNG
on Apr 26, 2012 at 5:48:48 pm

Thanks Juan. Good info.

__
Mac Pro 3,1 2.8ghz 8-Core, Nvidia GTX 285 (S1), BMD HD Extreme 3D (S3)


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Rick Lang
Re: Blackmagic Cinema Camera - edit workflow using 12 bit RAW CinemaDNG
on Apr 26, 2012 at 6:06:24 pm

Juan, apparently it is designed for this kind of work! Cinema Camera RAW
-> log with Media Express
-> Resolve for quick edit for dailies
-> render 709 for FCPX for final edit using a ProRes proxy
-> XML back to Resolve for conform and final grade using RAW
-> render desired final forms for distribution.

Thanks for the help! Perhaps release 9.0 will assist or simplify the actual steps required but will still follow this approach.

Rick Lang

iMac 27” 2.8GHz i7 16GB


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Juan Salvo
Re: Blackmagic Cinema Camera - edit workflow using 12 bit RAW CinemaDNG
on Apr 26, 2012 at 6:11:38 pm

I think you can skip the log with media express part. You can add metadata on the camera, that metadata gets carried through in resolve to the qts.

Don't think v9 will change steps, but the interface is a bit easier.

online editor | colorist | VFX | BD author

http://JuanSalvo.com


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Pat Horridge
Re: Blackmagic Cinema Camera - edit workflow using 12 bit RAW CinemaDNG
on Apr 30, 2012 at 4:33:58 pm

I know it's going to be hardware dependent but what sort of processing time is the Resolve dailies going to take?
Also it's an expensive setup for just processing offline footage isn't it?
With the move towards direct access to media for immediate selects are their plans for an Avid AMA plugin?

Also if you offline in FCPX or Avid and you do any grading how will this go back to Resolve (and would it even mean anything as it's based on a pre 709 LUT having been applied?).
Can Resolve read and understand an FCPX or Avid color correction effect? No point baking them in by rendering if you then link the sequence back to the RAW media.
Seems to be any grading in the offline should be seen as viewing grades only and will be lost when going back to resolve for the finishing grade.

Pat Horridge
Technical Director, Trainer, Avid Certified Instructor
VET
Production Editing Digital Media Design DVD
T +44 (0)20 7505 4701 | F +44 (0)20 7505 4800 | E pat@vet.co.uk |
http://www.vet.co.uk | Lux Building 2-4 Hoxton Square London N1 6US


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Rick Lang
Re: Blackmagic Cinema Camera - edit workflow using 12 bit RAW CinemaDNG
on Apr 30, 2012 at 8:28:07 pm

[Pat Horridge] "Can Resolve read and understand an FCPX or Avid color correction effect? No point baking them in by rendering if you then link the sequence back to the RAW media."

Pat, does this answer your question? From
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/davinciresolve/workflow/

Multi track XML Support
Move your projects between your favorite NLE software and DaVinci Resolve and add professional color correction to your edit! DaVinci can be used on set, to grade shots before the edit, or after to grade and re-render the final master in a deeper bit depth. DaVinci supports XML import and export from Final Cut Pro X and any color grades in Final Cut Pro become DaVinci grades once imported. DaVinci Resolve also supports Final Cut Pro 7, Adobe Premiere Pro and also Avid AAF!

Rick Lang

iMac 27” 2.8GHz i7 16GB


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Pat Horridge
Re: Blackmagic Cinema Camera - edit workflow using 12 bit RAW CinemaDNG
on Apr 30, 2012 at 8:52:48 pm

Ah an RTFM moment:-)

Yet tocomplete testing on our system.
But is there a list of exactly whats supported in an Avid AAF?
Lessinterested in FCPLegacy as that will die off over the next year or so and We've seen exactly 0 FCPX interest or work.
PPRO may make a showing but it's an improvement to Avid dated color correction that Resolve looks interesting.
We have a nice workflowroute via our DS but DS development isn't a quick thing...

Pat Horridge
Technical Director, Trainer, Avid Certified Instructor
VET
Production Editing Digital Media Design DVD
T +44 (0)20 7505 4701 | F +44 (0)20 7505 4800 | E pat@vet.co.uk |
http://www.vet.co.uk | Lux Building 2-4 Hoxton Square London N1 6US


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Rick Lang
Re: Blackmagic Cinema Camera - edit workflow using 12 bit RAW CinemaDNG
on Apr 30, 2012 at 10:15:33 pm

[Pat Horridge] "But is there a list of exactly whats supported in an Avid AAF?"

i think our knowledge of the Avid AAF and FCPX XML colour correction support details (and any gotchas) will wait for the final release of DaVinci Resolve 9.0 software and the manual that we'll need to read. So many videos to watch from NAB on this camera so understandable it’s difficult to catch everything now!

8^)

Rick Lang

iMac 27” 2.8GHz i7 16GB


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Pat Horridge
Re: Blackmagic Cinema Camera - edit workflow using 12 bit RAW CinemaDNG
on May 1, 2012 at 6:59:45 am

I can appreciate that but there is a lot of interest from Avid users.
There's been a massive move from FCP to Avid and from the FCP side round tripping via color is very similar to Avid round tripping to Resolve. But only if it works.
IF BM don't ensure it's seemless and the "gotchas" well covered users will get frustrated and seek other solutions of which there a number.
It's only a limited window of oppertunity to grab that market if BM consider it of value.

Pat Horridge
Technical Director, Trainer, Avid Certified Instructor
VET
Production Editing Digital Media Design DVD
T +44 (0)20 7505 4701 | F +44 (0)20 7505 4800 | E pat@vet.co.uk |
http://www.vet.co.uk | Lux Building 2-4 Hoxton Square London N1 6US


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Rick Lang
Re: Blackmagic Cinema Camera - edit workflow using 12 bit RAW CinemaDNG
on May 5, 2012 at 9:25:44 pm

Juan, thinking about the large size of the CinemaDNG files and based on comments in this thread:
http://www.bmcuser.com/showthread.php?82-Shooting-RAW-or-10-bit-4-2-2-Compr...

Specifically:
[2012-05-04] 12:10 PM
"Originally Posted by Note Suwanchote
i haven't checked this but we could shoot in uncompressed dng and convert to cineform raw?
We are enabling that workflow. You can do it today will a shell to batch CinemaDNG files, but we are making it much easier.

[2012-05-04] 05:09 PM
CineForm RAW encoding is already faster than the SSD I/O, no GPU acceleration required.

David Newman
Sr. Dir. Software Eng. GoPro (a.k.a CTO, CineForm)"

I’m thinking this might be a reasonable workflow for those who want to save space:

Blackmagic Cinema Camera using CinemaRAW
-> convert to Cineform RAW using some utility or plug-ins to be supplied by GoPro
-> use the Cineform RAW in DaVinci Resolve for quick grade for dailies
-> render 709 for FCPX for final edit using a ProRes proxy
-> XML from FCPX back to Resolve for conform and final grade using Cineform RAW files
-> render desired final forms for distribution.

One user on BMCuser suggested BlackMagic Design should record to Cineform RAW directly since it’s lossless. This viability of this proposed workflow also assumes the metadata will be kept throughout the various steps.

Rick Lang

iMac 27” 2.8GHz i7 16GB


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Juan Salvo
Re: Blackmagic Cinema Camera - edit workflow using 12 bit RAW CinemaDNG
on May 7, 2012 at 5:42:43 am

Only problem with that workflow is 1 that it's an extra step with no benefit other than a bit of space savings and the downside of then having to buy a license for CF, and 2 you'd have potential issues with metadata.

Hard drives space is cheap, processing time and cineform licenses cost money.

I suppose if you wanted to archive all of your raw material long term... or already had a workflow based around CF this would probably work.

I think the workflow that will prevail will be the simplest one.

- Open DNG in Resolve & render to prores with standard 709 LUT
- edit in NLE of choice
- send project back to resolve to conform from DNG... or just finish in NLE if color is not an issue.
- ?
- profit

I'm sure BMD will have a detailed PDF with the recommended workflow around the release of the camera. Everything until then is speculation, but fun any way. ;-)

Online Editor | Colorist | Post Super | VFX Artist | BD Author

http://JuanSalvo.com


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Rick Lang
Re: Blackmagic Cinema Camera - edit workflow using 12 bit RAW CinemaDNG
on May 7, 2012 at 1:48:23 pm

Thanks, Juan. You’re probably right. I guess I was hoping the conversion to CineformRAW would be a utility priced separately from GoPro’s edit software. But I notice others also assume it will require one to license their own editor. Fair enough.

Rick Lang

iMac 27” 2.8GHz i7 16GB


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Sunil Sanjan
Re: Blackmagic Cinema Camera - edit workflow using 12 bit RAW CinemaDNG
on Jun 14, 2012 at 7:16:20 pm

Hello All,

I concluded/gathered few inputs/facts and points over BMD reviews. Kindly help in explaining the doubts as mentioned below:

I read that BMD is better than:5Dmk2, GH2 and fs100 ? Can anyone explain the difference ?

If Cant afford scarlet or EPIC or a C300, Can go for BMD ? means these are yet better than BMD if price is not a issue?

Read that Arri Alexa has same sensor as BMD ? Is it True? What difference it will make for Arri Alexa ?

I read it is faster to use than a h.264 style camera, because you’re shooting native ProRes and the files can be used right away without the messy transcoding steps. Is it good option to use file directly ? What difference it makes if Prores is not used beside time and messy steps ?

Read that When you’re shooting RAW, every frame is a DNG image file. That means you can open them in Photoshop, and presumably everything else ADOBE like After Effects. What is major advantage of this ?

Read that can shoot RAW and get everything, or you can shoot Pro Res and get either a LOG image that gets you almost everything, or a REC709 that gets you pretty great looking pictures that can be used right out of the camera. Does this mean need not to work on these pictures ?

Read that SSD’s are reliable, relatively cheap for the performance they offer and they are very readily available. As a consumer item, their costs are on a constant downward trajectory too. What are other Pros and cons of SSD ?

Read that Sensor Size very similar to the NIKON 1 which is 13.2 x 8.8. BMD is 15.6 x 8.8 (15.6 sounds like Diagonal). Does this difference makes any major impact ?

This means sensor size Closer to m4/3 ? Right?

It means we can use wide m4/3 lenses. What are the wide m4/3 lenses avaibale in market which will suit best for BMD ?

Read that the sigma 8-16mm ef-s mount rectilinear lens will give you about 18-37mm (35mm equivalent coverage) This is based on a 2.3x crop factor I’ve read elsewhere. Not sure if that’s accurate. How far is this true ?

Read that the Canon 10-22 EF-S zoom translates to 15mm-33mm on the BMD. How far is this true ?

Read that 16mm Lenses won’t cover the sensor size? Still doubt on this point ? If so why?

Also what about Audio quality on this BMD camera? What are audio options for BMD ?

It will be great if you guys explain these points.

Best Regards,
Sunil Sanjan


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Rick Lang
Re: Blackmagic Cinema Camera - edit workflow using 12 bit RAW CinemaDNG
on Jun 16, 2012 at 1:30:09 am

[Sunil Sanjan] "I read that BMD is better than:5Dmk2, GH2 and fs100 ? Can anyone explain the difference ?
"


You need to read the manufacturer’s online product information and judge which is better related to your own needs and priorities. Each camera can have it’s strengths and weaknesses related to your needs.


[Sunil Sanjan] "If Cant afford scarlet or EPIC or a C300, Can go for BMD ? means these are yet better than BMD if price is not a issue?
"


Probably true if price was no object but if you like your quality to be acquired with relative ease and simplicity, the BMCC is best.

[Sunil Sanjan] "Read that Arri Alexa has same sensor as BMD ? Is it True? What difference it will make for Arri Alexa ?
"


Not true.


[Sunil Sanjan] "I read it is faster to use than a h.264 style camera, because you’re shooting native ProRes and the files can be used right away without the messy transcoding steps. Is it good option to use file directly ? What difference it makes if Prores is not used beside time and messy steps ?
"


Messy steps? Be serious! You use ProRes or DNxHD or RAW for higher quality than H.264, but if you’re final output (e.g. web video) doesn’t require the quality, then certainly the BMCC is not the camera you want.

[Sunil Sanjan] "Read that When you’re shooting RAW, every frame is a DNG image file. That means you can open them in Photoshop, and presumably everything else ADOBE like After Effects. What is major advantage of this ?
"


Well, being able to work with a single DNG file from the video stream can have many creative uses as well as allowing you to Photoshop an image easily that you could use for promotion of the video.

[Sunil Sanjan] "Read that can shoot RAW and get everything, or you can shoot Pro Res and get either a LOG image that gets you almost everything, or a REC709 that gets you pretty great looking pictures that can be used right out of the camera. Does this mean need not to work on these pictures ?
"


No, you still need to work on the video in all areas of creating a logged, edited, graded, finished product regardless of the quality of the codec.

[Sunil Sanjan] "Read that SSD’s are reliable, relatively cheap for the performance they offer and they are very readily available. As a consumer item, their costs are on a constant downward trajectory too. What are other Pros and cons of SSD ?
"


Pro: non-proprietary, large capacity for long recording sessions, quiet operation, reliable until it breaks, if certified by vendor for their device/camera/product will work like a charm with very high transfer rates, not tied to a vendors proprietary and potentially expensive media, etc.
Con:moderately expensive, expensive if it breaks, doesn’t provide permanent backup like tape does, if not certified by a vendor for their product will be a gamble you don’t want to lose, etc.

[Sunil Sanjan] "Read that Sensor Size very similar to the NIKON 1 which is 13.2 x 8.8. BMD is 15.6 x 8.8 (15.6 sounds like Diagonal). Does this difference makes any major impact ?
"


Not major, but can impact the focal length of lenses you prefer to use as the field-of-view is different.


[Sunil Sanjan] "This means sensor size Closer to m4/3 ? Right?
"


Close is irrelevant at this point as micro four-thirds mount lenses won’t be supported in the BMCC.

[Sunil Sanjan] "It means we can use wide m4/3 lenses. What are the wide m4/3 lenses avaibale in market which will suit best for BMD ?
"


See previous response.

[Sunil Sanjan] "Read that the sigma 8-16mm ef-s mount rectilinear lens will give you about 18-37mm (35mm equivalent coverage) This is based on a 2.3x crop factor I’ve read elsewhere. Not sure if that’s accurate. How far is this true ?
"


That’s the generally accepted crop factor rounded to one decimal point. Remember you should purchase a lens compatible with the Canon EF (or Zeiss ZE) mount.

[Sunil Sanjan] "Read that the Canon 10-22 EF-S zoom translates to 15mm-33mm on the BMD. How far is this true ?
"


Not true as far as I know as that crop factor would only be 1.5. If I recall correctly, 1.5 is the crop factor for Nikon’s version of the AFS-C sensor, 1.6 is the Canon AFS-C sensor crop factor. I could be wrong as I’ve only used a full-frame Nikon. The EF-S lens' focal length assumes a 35mm full-frame camera. Do the math with the true crop factor in the previous comment.

[Sunil Sanjan] "Read that 16mm Lenses won’t cover the sensor size? Still doubt on this point ? If so why?
"


If you mean a lens specifically limited to emulate 16mm film in a digital sensor, the focus circle will be too small to cover the larger sensor on the BMCC. Not to mention the lens won’t mount on the BMCC.

[Sunil Sanjan] "Also what about Audio quality on this BMD camera? What are audio options for BMD ?
"


Audio quality depends on many factors. Audio 1/4” jack inputs support balanced mics or line-in (no phantom power though) or use a built-in mono microphone. Monitor sound levels with headphones. The camera supports 24-bit four-channel audio at 48kHz via SDI out. Review the specs:
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/blackmagiccinemacamera/techspecs/

[Sunil Sanjan] "It will be great if you guys explain these points.
"


My pleasure, hope I’ve been accurate. Here’s a link to a great creative community dedicated to the BMCC. You can read thousands of messages about this eagerly-anticipated, stunning and revolutionary camera:
http://www.bmcuser.com/

Rick Lang

iMac 27” 2.8GHz i7 16GB


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Sunil Sanjan
Re: Blackmagic Cinema Camera - edit workflow using 12 bit RAW CinemaDNG
on Jun 16, 2012 at 10:50:17 am

Thanks a ton Rick for detailed explanation and your valuable inputs.

Sorry to bother you again. What is this "rolling shutter" issue with BMD cinema camera, I read in many reviews. Would love to have detailed explanation on this if any at your end. Is it a major draw back ? How it is going to affect ? Thanks again in advance for your valuable inputs on this doubt.

Best Regards,
Sunil Sanjan


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Rick Lang
Re: Blackmagic Cinema Camera - edit workflow using 12 bit RAW CinemaDNG
on Jun 16, 2012 at 2:32:35 pm

Sunil:
"What is this "rolling shutter" issue with BMD cinema camera?"

Excellent explanation in Wikipedia so read that. It is something to be aware of when shooting motion and some cameras show less rolling shutter than others. Some have observed a jello effect when moving the camera but it is nit too severe on the BDCC apparently.

Rick Lang

iMac 27” 2.8GHz i7 16GB


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Sunil Sanjan
Re: Blackmagic Cinema Camera - edit workflow using 12 bit RAW CinemaDNG
on Jun 23, 2012 at 2:51:15 pm

Thanks again Ric. I was just going through the lens. As per specifications we can use EF and ZE lenses for BMD Cinema camera ? What about Canon canon EF-S Lenses ? Are EF-S lens also compatible with BMD cinema camera. Also read that Full Frame cameras can only use EF lenses. APS-H sensors can only use EF lenses,EF-S lenses won’t work. APS-H are sensors with crop factor 1.3x. This means that they are 1.3x smaller than Full Frame sensors and therefore, crop some of your image.

Thanks,

Best Regards,
Sunil Sanjan


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Rick Lang
Re: Blackmagic Cinema Camera - edit workflow using 12 bit RAW CinemaDNG
on Jun 23, 2012 at 5:00:16 pm

Sunil, the BMCC takes EF-S lenses as well as EF lenses. The crop factor compared to full frame is about 2.3.

Rick Lang

iMac 27” 2.8GHz i7 16GB


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Alex Zvyk
Re: Blackmagic Cinema Camera - edit workflow using 12 bit RAW CinemaDNG
on Oct 22, 2013 at 3:15:41 am

How about RAW 2 CF RAW. Converts raw DNGs to Cineform video raw, with audio.


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