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Issues with Hyperdeck Shuttle 2 - Clipped chroma and lack of mxf viewer

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Anmol Mishra
Issues with Hyperdeck Shuttle 2 - Clipped chroma and lack of mxf viewer
on Feb 2, 2012 at 12:16:13 pm

I am going to use the Shuttle 2 for a shoot tomorrow. Its a backup so I feel safe.
At this time, I see 2 problems with the Shuttle 2.

All of BMD products (i.e. Intensity and Hyperdeck) seem to be clipping the 0-15 portions of the chroma in YUV space. These values are used by the xv.ycc (xv.color, Cinema color) color space to expand the gamut. It is used in a number of newer and not so newer cameras. If this is a "feature" of the hdmi input chipset, perhaps BMD would consider moving to another chipset. I have not tested the Shuttle 2 for this clipping yet, but don't see anything from the tech specs indicating a change.

The mxf used to wrap the DnxHD is really really strange. None of the rewrapping tools seem to work. At this time, the only options are DaVinci Resolve Lite (you need a CUDA GPU and lots of RAM) or one of Avid's NLEs. A trial of Media Composer seems to be the smallest download at 3GB.

I have not seen a response from BMD staff about these 2 issues. So I will use this space for updates.

Hopefully BMDs engineers are working to rectify the mxf issues.


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Andreas Wojtaschek
Re: Issues with Hyperdeck Shuttle 2 - Clipped chroma and lack of mxf viewer
on Feb 2, 2012 at 1:13:30 pm

I think they got the codec for free and had to claim that the files are only compatible with Avid NLE's. ;)

Davinci Resolve light is an alternative - you ar right. Allthough it can only convert the MXFs to another format by rerendering and recompressing them. It is not able to rewrap the MXF files.

Regards

Andreas

--

Entertainment Producer IHK
mindandvision


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Andreas Wojtaschek
Re: Issues with Hyperdeck Shuttle 2 - Clipped chroma and lack of mxf viewer
on Feb 2, 2012 at 1:16:56 pm

Ah and btw.

There is a tool that can rewrap the MXFs: As mentioned in another thread it is from Calibrated and it is named MXF tools and it is 200$.
I tried it - it works perfect if you are willing to spend 200$

Regards

Andreas

--

Entertainment Producer IHK
mindandvision


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Greg Booth
Re: Issues with Hyperdeck Shuttle 2 - Clipped chroma and lack of mxf viewer
on Feb 2, 2012 at 2:22:15 pm

Hi Anmol & Andreas,

We're planning on releasing Calibrated{Q} MXF Import v2.2.0 soon - this will have BETA support for the BMD captured DNxHD MXF files. The current released version (v2.1.2) is not able to properly open the BMD DNxHD MXF files.

Also, the pricing is slightly higher on Mac than Windows.

Cheers,
Greg

Calibrated Software


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Alex Maranda
Re: Issues with Hyperdeck Shuttle 2 - Clipped chroma and lack of mxf viewer
on Feb 2, 2012 at 8:17:07 pm

Ref. Full Swing (0-255) vs. Studio Swing (16-235) on the Shuttle 2: You don't know this for a fact do you? I'd like to know what you learn from your shoot tomorrow.

BE AWARE that your NLE can remap levels depending on settings, so this may be an import artifact. In AVID you shouldn't import at all, just place the files within AVID MediaFiles/MXF/ and delete the database files. If you do import, import with Rec.709 levels, not RGB. Importing as RGB will in fact "conform" levels to Studio Swing.


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Anmol Mishra
Re: Issues with Hyperdeck Shuttle 2 - Clipped chroma and lack of mxf viewer
on Feb 2, 2012 at 9:48:15 pm

Here is a long thread I had last year with BM support discussing the clipping. I removed the name of the sales rep just in case he does not want it posted here.
This is the important part..

Intensity will probably capture the xvYCC colorspace but it will strip the
video to the YUV colorspace. This does the same thing if you take a RGB
colorspace signal and capture it with Intensity. Instead of the RGB 0-255,
it will capture and strip it to YUV 16-235.

The same should apply with our DeckLink cards even when capturing at 10 bit.

As such, you may want to look into alternatives.






>>>
Hello Anmol,

I do understand why you would want the full support for colorspace. I will be happy to re-log this request.


Regards,

Support Representative
Blackmagic Design Inc.

>>>

Hi. I am definitely interested in your products - have of 3 of them now. I do want to point out that e
ven the ITU.BT-709 standard clearly says that video data is all the range from 1-254. So why are they clipped ?

BM provides products for the professional industry, so its actually a major drawback to reduce colorspace in this range.
HDMI 1.3 allows for xvYCC, and both AVCHD and H.264 include this support in their specs.

The specs for all BM cards include HDMI 1.3 so its strange that this clipping is happening.

>>>
Hello,

I would guess that the H.264 Pro Recorder will also clip the xvYCC colorspace to YUV but without the product being out, this will not be known currently. We are hoping to ship this product around NAB time (so looking like April). If you are still interested in this, please get back in touch with us in the near future and we should have some concrete answers about this product then.

I think 1080p 23.98/24/29.97 are in spec for this product but not sure about 1080p 60 yet.



Regards,

Support Representative
Blackmagic Design Inc.
http://www.blackmagic-design.com
>>>

Hi. I am thinking of buying the H.264 Pro Recorder when it comes out. How will it handle xvYCC inputs ?

Will they still be clipped ?

Also, while I understand that there is a hardware h.264 encoder onboard, is there a min system spec for 1080p recording ? Just wondering if I can reuse my old 1GHz ULV tablets.

>>>
Hello Anmol,

Not sure as I am not a hardware engineer, but I will be happy to log this as
a feature request!

Regards,


Support Representative
Blackmagic Design Inc.

>>>

Is this a limitation of the hdmi input SMD that your are using or the
processing in the firmware ?
If the limitation is in the firmware, would you consider releasing a fix ?

Its just a simple mapping of the input signal.


>>>


Hello Anmol,

Sorry for the delayed response. I had to check around to find the answer to
your question.

Intensity will probably capture the xvYCC colorspace but it will strip the
video to the YUV colorspace. This does the same thing if you take a RGB
colorspace signal and capture it with Intensity. Instead of the RGB 0-255,
it will capture and strip it to YUV 16-235.

The same should apply with our DeckLink cards even when capturing at 10 bit.

As such, you may want to look into alternatives.

Regards,

Support Representative
Blackmagic Design Inc.


>>>



Subject: 4:2:2 xvYCC support in HDMI capture
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Name: Anmol Mishra
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Product: Intensity Pro
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Driver Version:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
OS: Mac OS X
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
OS Version: 10.6.5
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Message:
Hi! I have been a long time user of both the Intensity and Intensity Pro
cards.
I am working on a 3d project which will 2x camcorders that ouptut 4:2:2
xvYCC
via HDMI. Now, I know that the standard 8-bit YUV 4:2:2 works great with
your
cards.

How do your products stack up while recording 4:2:2 xvYCC streams ?
I know they will record, but do you actually map the extra color information
into capture data ?

I think the low end Intensity cards are internally 8-bit, but I do know that
your higher end card is 10-bit. Will that support 4:2:2 xvYCC?


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Alex Maranda
Re: Issues with Hyperdeck Shuttle 2 - Clipped chroma and lack of mxf viewer
on Feb 3, 2012 at 9:26:19 am

ok there are a number of issues there obscuring the question at hand. First off you asked about the xvYCC color space, which, while requiring Full Swing values, is different from REC.709/YUV in other ways (it can translate to negative RGB values).

So, what you should test if you have the means, are the following scenarios:
a) RGB(444) input on HDMI: will it be encoded to YUV video (studio swing levels) or full swing (0-255) making it illegal video? I expect the former and hope for the latter.
b) YUV (full swing) input: will it be encoded as is, and if not, will the superblack and superwhite be clipped or will the full range be scaled to legal video range 15-235. Ideally this should be a configuration option.


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Anmol Mishra
Re: Issues with Hyperdeck Shuttle 2 - Clipped chroma and lack of mxf viewer
on Feb 4, 2012 at 12:34:51 am

Hi Alex.

a. I have only used BMD HDMI capture products in YUV space. I do not have access to any device that outputs RGB 444 via HDMI. The cameras I am interested in all output YUV 4:2:2 and a couple use the xvYcc colorspace.

b. With a xvYcc input, superwhites and superblacks are used. And my discussion with BMD indicated clipping with no option of disabling clipping. I do not have tools to show this experimentally.


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Anmol Mishra
Re: Issues with Hyperdeck Shuttle 2 - Clipped chroma and lack of mxf viewer
on Mar 26, 2012 at 8:43:50 am

This is driving me nuts. I sent the following inquiry.
>>>
I had a question about the Shuttle that I hope you could get a response from blackmagic about.
In the Intensity line of capture cards the chroma values were clipped at 16-240.
This prevented the recording of expanded gamut xv.ycc color space.

Is this clipping still happening on the Shuttle 2 ?
>>>

Got this reply.
>>>
there will be no change in HyperDeck Shuttle 2 with regards to this.
>>>

A 10-bit recorder will use 0-1023 values.
Does this mean that the space from 0-15 and 240-253 are empty ?

I just want a clarification from BMD about this. I have owned the Intensity, Intensity Pro and now the Hyperdeck Shuttle. Is it too much for a long term customer to get a clarification on this issue ?

Even if it cannot be fixed, at least be forthright about the limitation and document it so we can avoid this issue!


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