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Aaron Pulicano
DeckLink HD Extreme 3D Questions
on Jul 13, 2010 at 3:13:46 pm

Hi,

Three questions about the DeckLink HD Extreme 3D I hope someone could answer for me.

1) Will it ever be possible for the DeckLink HD Extreme 3D to support stereoscopic 3D capture from sources like a developer PlayStation 3 v.i HDMI?

2) Will it ever be possible to capture in RGB v.i HDMI with the DeckLink HD Extreme 3D (something like RGB 8-Bit 4:4:4)?

3) Does the DeckLink HD Extreme 3D work with software for video/audio streaming (like flash media encoder for example)?

Thanks,
Aaron


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Joshua Helling
Re: DeckLink HD Extreme 3D Questions
on Jul 13, 2010 at 8:11:35 pm

Some answers for you.

1) Will it ever be possible for the DeckLink HD Extreme 3D to support stereoscopic 3D capture from sources like a developer PlayStation 3 v.i HDMI?
A> Not currently, but we are hoping to add HDMI 3D capture. One issue here is that on a consumer PS3 all HDMI output is HDCP encrypted. The Dev kits are different and MAY have the HDCP encryption off, and in this case it could be possible.

2) Will it ever be possible to capture in RGB v.i HDMI with the DeckLink HD Extreme 3D (something like RGB 8-Bit 4:4:4)?
A> At this time I don't know of any intentions of adding RGB capture via HDMI.

3) Does the DeckLink HD Extreme 3D work with software for video/audio streaming (like flash media encoder for example)?
A> It does in fact. Adobe just recently released an update that would allow capture from 48khz audio (what our boards give to direct show) that allows that to work. So with other softwares the software will need to support a DirectShow or Quicktime hardware interface. The problem plaguing most streaming apps is the audio they are looking for is 44.1Khz. This is why the recent Adobe flash encoder update now works.

I hope that helps.

Sincerely,

Joshua
Director of Support
Blackmagic Design Inc.


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Aaron Pulicano
Re: DeckLink HD Extreme 3D Questions
on Jul 13, 2010 at 10:21:00 pm

Hi Joshua, thanks for the reply.
As a fallow up:

1) Is HDMI Stereoscopic 3D capture something that will definitely be added in the near feature? Because when you say "we are hoping to add HDMI 3D capture" and "in this case it could be possible" it sounds like the hardware can do it, but it might not ever be added. Would hate to purchase the card and 3D HDMI capture ends up never being added. Also, keep in mind Nvidia, AMD/ATI, and Microsoft Xbox 360 are considering or have confirmed to be adding Stereoscopic 3D for their hardware and these have no HDCP for gaming.

2a) You seem to know about the inner workings of PlayStation 3, so you might also know that PlayStation 3 (along Xbox 360 and current generation graphics cards) all output their native gaming sources as RGB 8-Bit 4:4:4. Is the HDMI section of the DeckLink HD Extreme 3D hardware able to capture in RGB but it is just not supported v.i driver/software? If you can see what I am saying here, my sources are RGB 8-Bit 4:4:4 and I would rather not have to capture them as YUV 8 or 10 Bit 4:2:2 with a loss of half the video information. If I purchase the DeckLink HD Extreme 3D is RGB capture v.i HDMI something I could request or pay extra for? Is there a reason why BlackMagic has never supported RGB capture v.i HDMI when RGB is part of the HDMI specification?

2b) From what I understand RGB capture is only currently supported v.i SDI with DeckLink HD Extreme 3D and that is 10-Bit RGB 4:4:4 up to 1080p24?, correct? Is the DeckLink HD Extreme 3D hardware able to support 8-Bit RGB 4:4:4 or is just a software/driver limitation? If ever added/possible, would 8-Bit RGB allow for full 1080p60 capture?

3) The HDMI ports on the DeckLink HD Extreme 3D are 1.3, correct? Does that mean they support deep color? Also, has 480p capture support been implemented yet? And is that 480p support for all inputs or only hdmi and component and not sdi?

I hope my concerns can be looked into as I am looking for a card that allows me to capture free of limitations.

Thanks,
Aaron



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Aaron Pulicano
Re: DeckLink HD Extreme 3D Questions
on Jul 15, 2010 at 5:34:03 pm

Are you still there, Joshua? =(


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Joshua Helling
Re: DeckLink HD Extreme 3D Questions
on Jul 15, 2010 at 9:11:45 pm

Hrm...okay..I will do my best on these questions.

1) Is HDMI Stereoscopic 3D capture something that will definitely be added in the...
A> Well, there is never a guarantee until we announce it. But from my understanding it is the intention for that to be a sort of "Round 2" for 3D support.

...Would hate to purchase the card and 3D HDMI capture ends up never being added.
A> Understood.

...Also, keep in mind Nvidia, AMD/ATI, and Microsoft Xbox 360 are considering or have confirmed to be adding Stereoscopic 3D for their hardware and these have no HDCP for gaming.
A> Well, retail versions of the PS3 do indeed encrypt everything. XBox360 doesn't encrypt for gaming. But I've heard already and seen a post here on the forum that it appears that the new "Slim XBox360" also encrypts EVERYTHING. Of course the dev versions may always be different.

2a) You seem to know about the inner workings of PlayStation 3, so you might also know that PlayStation 3 (along Xbox 360 and current generation graphics cards) all output their native gaming sources as RGB 8-Bit 4:4:4.
A> Yup...I do.

...Is the HDMI section of the DeckLink HD Extreme 3D hardware able to capture in RGB but it is just not supported v.i driver/software?
A> On the HD Extreme 3 (older version) it was not capable of doing it. But as I understand it, the hardware on the HDE3D could theoretically do it. But as of yet I haven't been told of any plans to add RGB capture to HDMI.

...If you can see what I am saying here, my sources are RGB 8-Bit 4:4:4 and I would rather not have to capture them as YUV 8 or 10 Bit 4:2:2 with a loss of half the video information.
A> I do see what you are saying. Though it's closer to 1/3 loss, but I get your point.

...If I purchase the DeckLink HD Extreme 3D is RGB capture v.i HDMI something I could request or pay extra for? Is there a reason why BlackMagic has never supported RGB capture v.i HDMI when RGB is part of the HDMI specification?
A> Not likely. If it is a feature that we can and choose to add, we will add it for free, and everyone with a Decklink HD Extreme 3D will get access to it.

2b) From what I understand RGB capture is only currently supported v.i SDI with DeckLink HD Extreme 3D and that is 10-Bit RGB 4:4:4 up to 1080p24?, correct? Is the DeckLink HD Extreme 3D hardware able to support 8-Bit RGB 4:4:4 or is just a software/driver limitation? If ever added/possible, would 8-Bit RGB allow for full 1080p60 capture?
A> Tricky question. Much of this overlaps with parts of question 1. As to "IF" the hardware can do it, see my response above. As to if we add support, it would probably most likely remain a 10bit capture (vs 8bit). The reason being would be that we would also need to develop an 8bit RGB codec. And IF we did I don't see a reason it couldn't (technically) support 1080p60.

3) The HDMI ports on the DeckLink HD Extreme 3D are 1.3, correct? Does that mean they support deep color?...
A> Yes. But remember that supporting a spec (1.3, or 1.4) means that the hardware chip can support certain features, but not all features are required. Still only the YUV color space is captured from HDMI (though an RGB signal will be converted for capture).

...Also, has 480p capture support been implemented yet? And is that 480p support for all inputs or only hdmi and component and not sdi?
A> In the Ultra Studio Pro and the Intensity Shuttle yes it has. And I believe its for Component, HDMI, and SDI. It has not yet been implemented to the Decklink HD Extreme 3D but is likely to make it in an update.

Heck...this post was long.

Sincerely,

Joshua
Director of Support
Blackmagic Design Inc.


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Aaron Pulicano
Re:DeckLink HD Extreme 3D Questions
on Jul 15, 2010 at 10:40:31 pm

Thanks for such an in-depth and detailed reply.

For the 3D HDMI capture issue, when you say "But from my understanding it is the intention for that to be a sort of "Round 2" for 3D support." were you trying to say that would be something for the next generation of DeckLink HD Extreme (new hardware) card or something for future major driver overhaul for the current DeckLink HD Extreme 3D?

Without the ability to capture RGB with the DeckLink HD Extreme 3D I might as well just get an Intensity Shuttle seeing as the DeckLink HD Extreme 3D does not support "consumer" video/audio component found on home consoles (I think there might be a way to convert it for the DeckLink HD Extreme 3D's included break-out cable but not sure). However, the one thing that DeckLink HD Extreme 3D has that the Shuttle doesn't is 1080p60 support which I need. Plus there is a chance for 3D capture v.i HDMI to be added.

Anyway, I would really appreciate if you could maybe put in a good-word in with the engineers and see if they could possibly add RGB 8-Bit 4:4:4 capture support v.i HDMI (also 3D HDMI) to the DeckLink HD Extreme 3D. Have a 4TB six disk Raid0 array that reports as 602mb/s Read and 561mb/s write with BlackMagic's Disk Speed Check. So right now I am just looking for right capture card for my needs (which would be the DeckLink HD Extreme 3D if 3D/RGB is ever added for HDMI).

Thanks,
Aaron


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Kristian Lam
Re: Re:DeckLink HD Extreme 3D Questions
on Jul 16, 2010 at 5:17:19 am

Hi Aaron,

It depends on how the HDMI 3D output is implemented on the consoles. If they are sending out frame packed HDMI 1.4 3D, then the answer is no. HD Extreme 3D in its current form will not be able to capture that.

If it's side by side, line by line, top and bottom 3D that is in the 1920x1080 frame raster, then it's just like normal video so we can do it right now.

1080p60 support in HD Extreme 3D is dual link HD-SDI in 4:2:2 color space. Intensity Shuttle is capable in hardware of 1080p support (also 4:2:2) but until the USB host chips catch up in terms of bandwidth, it won't do it right now. The moment that bandwidth limitation is overcome, Intensity Shuttle will do it.

We've never done 8-bit RGB support because it was never an issue before. In the TV world, the most common formats are 8-bit YUV, 10-bit YUV and 10-bit RGB. Can we do 8-bit RGB? We could potentially, so I'll speak to the guys here and see what we can do. As usual, no promises.


regards

Kristian Lam
Blackmagic Design


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Aaron Pulicano
Re: Re:DeckLink HD Extreme 3D Questions
on Jul 16, 2010 at 11:27:43 am

Hi Kristian,

I am not sure how PS3 is sending its 3D to be honest. Keep in mind PS3 is 1.3 HDMI and Xbox 360 is 1.2 HDMI. However, I did some searching with Google and it "seems" the PS3 is able to use both Frame-Sequential stereoscopic 3D as well as frame-packing 3D (over and under?). But as of now it "seems" games might just be using frame-packing 3D which in the case of a 1280x720p image, it becomes a 1280×1470 image, with 30 lines of black separating the two views. Does anyone know for sure how PS3 does its 3D?

Here are some articles about it:

http://www.digitalfoundry.org/blog/
(these guys sell a 8-Bit RGB 4:4:4 with 3D capture support card but its $3,000+) -_-

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/electronics/2010/04/sony-playstation-3-ps3...

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/3d-games-20100607732.htm

As for 1080p60, that is supported on the DeckLink HD Extreme 3D v.i HDMI/Component as well as SDI, correct? The BlackMagic page for the DeckLink says "SDI, HDMI and analog component works in all video formats up to 1080p60.". Which means both 1080p60 8 and 10 bit YUV?

Thanks for talking the time to look into the RGB 8-Bit 4:4:4 issue. I really appreciate it and look forward to hear back from you. Also, would capturing in RGB 8-Bit 4:4:4 v.i HDMI with DeckLink HD Extreme 3D allow one to achieve up to 1080p60 capture?

And one other issue. How does BlackMagic's hardware handle color ranges? Like the DeckLink HD Extreme 3D for example with 0-255 and 16-235. Seeing as the card as of now converts RGB to YUV, does that mean it would also convert 0-255 RGB to 16-235 YUV (thus does not support 0-255)? If RGB 8-Bit 4:4:4 capture was added, would full 0-255 color range then also be supported?

Thanks,
Aaron


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Aaron Pulicano
Re: Re:DeckLink HD Extreme 3D Questions
on Jul 22, 2010 at 9:17:03 pm

Hello Kristian,

Have you heard anything back in relation to the RGB 4:4:4 8-Bit support and 3D HDMI?

Thanks,
Aaron


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Aaron Pulicano
Re: Re:DeckLink HD Extreme 3D Questions
on Jul 25, 2010 at 2:49:41 pm

Hello Kristian,

Posting again because I have some more information about the way PlayStation 3 does 3D. If you take a look at the below link, its a Sony 3D pdf file that lists the technical details. First off, PS3 3D games are 720p60 only but using a non-standard 1280x720p image of 1280x1470 that has 30 lines of black separating the two views.

In the pdf, on page 22, 23, 24, and 25, it seems to suggest that the PS3 uses top and/to bottom 1.4 HDMI frame packing. Maybe you could look at the PDF and let me know for sure. I am quite sure you would understand it better and also know how the DeckLink HD Extreme 3D accepts 3D over HDMI.

http://www.mediafire.com/?w5f1zy43b2d7pbm

I also would really like to know if you heard/found out anything about 8-Bit RGB 4:4:4 capture v.i HDMI with the DeckLink HD Extreme 3D.

Thanks,
Aaron


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Aaron Pulicano
Re: Re:DeckLink HD Extreme 3D Questions
on Jul 27, 2010 at 9:54:18 pm

Hello Kristian, I have not heard from you for almost two weeks now.
Could you please respond with an update?

I have some more information about the way PlayStation 3 does 3D. If you take a look at the below link, its a Sony 3D pdf file that lists the technical details. First off, PS3 3D games are 720p60 only but using a non-standard 1280x720p image of 1280x1470 that has 30 lines of black separating the two views.

In the pdf, on page 22, 23, 24, and 25, it seems to suggest that the PS3 uses top and/to bottom 1.4 HDMI frame packing. Maybe you could look at the PDF and let me know for sure. I am quite sure you would understand it better and also know how the DeckLink HD Extreme 3D accepts 3D over HDMI.

http://www.mediafire.com/?w5f1zy43b2d7pbm

I also would really like to know if you heard/found out anything about 8-Bit RGB 4:4:4 capture v.i HDMI with the DeckLink HD Extreme 3D.

Thanks,
Aaron


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