The Competition goes with HDMI

	Re: The Competition goes with HDMI by walter biscardi on May 8, 2008 at 8:24:07 pm [David Roth Weiss] "It would certainly be wonderful if everything came SDI ready, but SDI is still often that last holdout that takes many tools into that zone of unaffordability for many smaller shops." I don't buy that for a second. I've had SDI connectivity almost since day one. I'm a small shop, started out just by myself. I purchased the J3/902 deck years ago just because of the SDI connectivity even for BetaSP. SDI is a professional I/O, HDMI is not. HDMI is good for consumer gear, not very concerned about it in my shop. Walter Biscardi, Jr. Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions. STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now! Read my Blog! Respond to this post     Return to posts index

	Re: The Competition goes with HDMI by walter biscardi on May 8, 2008 at 9:37:02 pm [David Roth Weiss] "I understand that Kona cards and HD decks have SDI capability, but SDI ups the price of monitors and some other components rather substancially. That's what I was referring to. Compare the SDI card for a Pany monitor va the HDMI card for example..." I'm not talking about HD, I'm not talking about SDI input on a monitor. 5 years ago I purchased a Sony J3/902 SD Beta Multiformat deck, that's an SD deck. My HDV decks have Component output, not SDI. NONE of my monitors has SDI input. Why do you need one when they all come standard with Component input and all the Konas output component? SDI input is a waste of money on a monitor. So no, I don't have to compare the SDI input for my Sony or Panny monitors, they all come standard with Component and that's plenty good enough. The newer Panny plasmas come standard with HDMI too, but I only have a BluRay player connected with that, because both of my Component inputs are connected. So again, why do I need HDMI? Just to say I have it? Walter Biscardi, Jr. Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions. STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now! Read my Blog! Respond to this post     Return to posts index

	Re: The Competition goes with HDMI by walter biscardi on May 8, 2008 at 9:54:37 pm [David Roth Weiss] "Because SDI to the monitor keeps the signal path entirely digital... If it weren't expensive everyone would be monitoring via SDI just like you see at every big post house. That's the point..." My point is, you don't need SDI for input, component is fine for monitoring. I purchased the SDI SD input for my Sony monitor and it looks exactly the same as Component, so I never bothered to purchase it again and in fact I don't even use it on the main Sony monitor anymore. And as others have said, HDMI is not going to the answer. If you need a digital pipeline, then you go SDI because HDMI is limited to 8bits. Not sure how HDMI suddenly puts you on par with the "big post houses." We're a small post house doing very large national and international projects. SDI is our digital pipeline for audio and video to/from our systems, but as for monitoring, it's all component. We haven't suffered for it one bit and I'm not clamoring for HDMI. Just because BlackMagic has it, doesn't mean I need to see it. I'm sure it will come to the Kona boards as a matter of convenience, but as far as "needing it" because BlackMagic has it, don't really see that. Don't really see the need to monitor via HDMI in the shop either and quite honestly, I don't think I ever will. I'll leave that for the XBox and BluRay players. Walter Biscardi, Jr. Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions. STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now! Read my Blog! Respond to this post     Return to posts index

	Re: The Competition goes with HDMI by walter biscardi on May 10, 2008 at 12:06:03 am [David Roth Weiss] " No, you couldn't possibly disagree with me, because I have no opinion on the subject. I was merely posing the question here in order to hear what the consensus of opinion is about something I wanted to know more about." David, from your original post: It would seem to me that HDMI is a good thing and getting better all the time. Its already integrated into the IOHD, but is HDMI going to become a necessity and will AJA need to be putting HDMI on its Kona cards? "It would seem to be that HDMI is a good thing and getting better all the time" tells me that you do have an opinion and that opinion is you see HDMI as a good thing for the Post workflow. It's a good thing for consumer products. It's not a good thing for the HD Post workflow. AJA put it on the Io HD as a convenience and I would not be surprised to see it show up on a Kona breakout box at some point, but again, that will be for convenience. SDI is the way to go if you want a digital pipeline in post, be it a small workshop like ours or a large workshop. Walter Biscardi, Jr. Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions. STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now! Read my Blog! Respond to this post     Return to posts index

	Re: The Competition goes with HDMI by Jeff Bernstein on May 10, 2008 at 2:59:03 am I feel the need to clear up some misinformation stated above... All versions of the HDMI standard include 165 Mpixels/sec transmission over single-link cables, which is sufficient to transport 1080p60 video. Although some chip manufacturers produce HDMI (and DVI) parts that are incapable of that pixel rate, there are plenty of HDMI parts that are capable of 1080p60 video rates for equipment manufacturers that choose to provide those signals. The HDMI standards prior to version 1.3 provide RGB 4:4:4, YCbCr 4:4:4 and YCbCr 4:2:2 formats. The 4:4:4 formats were limited to 24-bits-per-pixel (8-bits-per-component). The YCbCr 4:2:2 format allows 8-bit, 10-bit, or 12-bit components, because the Cb and Cr color components are only sent with every other luma (Y) pixel. Hence, the 165 Mpixel/sec rate is still sufficient for 1080p60 YCbCr 4:2:2 video with 12-bit components. The new HDMI 1.3 standard extends the bit-depth of the RGB 4:4:4 and YCbCr 4:4:4 formats to 30-, 36-, and 48-bits-per-pixel (10-, 12-, and 16 bits-per-component). Color depths greater than 24 bits are called Deep Color modes. The Deep Color modes are an optional feature, and do not need to be supported by HDMI 1.3-compliant devices. However, each Deep Color mode that is supported must include RGB 4:4:4, and optionally may include YCbCr 4:4:4. The Deep Color modes do not affect the existing YCbCr 4:2:2 formats. The HDMI clock rate is increased to transport the Deep Color formats with more than 24 bits/pixel. The clock rate increases by the ratio of the pixel bit depth to 24 bits, i.e. the clock rate doubles to transport 48-bit Deep Color video. All existing consumer digital video sources are encoded using 8-bit per component YCbCr video. That includes broadcast and satellite sources, as well as standard-definition DVDs and high-definition optical discs. Therefore, the HDMI 1.3 Deep Color modes provide no advantage when transporting consumer video in its original format between products. However, when video is processed, such as scaling or gamma correction, it is necessary to perform the mathematical operations with additional precision, and it is then highly advantageous to maintain 10- or 12-bit component values all the way to the final display engine. Prior to HDMI 1.3, that was only possible by using the YCbCr 4:2:2 format to transport video from an external processor to a display. Now with HDMI 1.3, an external processor can convert incoming YCbCr 4:2:2 signals to YCbCr 4:4:4, perform scaling and gamma correction in the 4:4:4 format, and then transport the results to the display in the RGB or YCbCr 4:4:4 format with more than 8-bits-per-component. Of course, in order to achieve the desired image quality improvements, the display must also perform 4:4:4 video processing and imaging at the higher bit-depths. Consequently, real image quality improvements will not be achieved until all of the processing and display products in the video chain are able to take advantage of higher bit-depth 4:4:4 video signals. When that happens, the HDMI 1.3 Deep Color modes will eventually provide a significant video quality advantage over previous HDMI standards. Jeff Bernstein Digital Desktop Consulting Apple Pro Video VAR XSAN Certified MetaSAN Master Reseller 323-653-7611 Respond to this post     Return to posts index

	Re: The Competition goes with HDMI by walter biscardi on May 10, 2008 at 12:06:07 pm [Christopher Wright] "I was just happy to see that the MXO 2 will also have HDMI I/O. I'm sure it will come in handy for several client HDDVD/DVD sessions! Instead of having to use ripping software, you will be able to ingest straight from HDDVD in real time in your codec of choice to extract HD ready clips from a client disk." You can do that right now with Component. Been able to do that since BluRay first came out. Walter Biscardi, Jr. Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions. STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now! Read my Blog! Respond to this post     Return to posts index

	Re: The Competition goes with HDMI by walter biscardi on May 11, 2008 at 3:48:54 pm [Chris Poisson] "I'll go Will's comments one further, I think this thread should be pulled so as not to turn off newbies. My 2 cents." Why would you want to do that? People can't disagree about formats and workflows? There's no one right answer about everything. I don't think HDMI is a valid pro workflow. Others feel it is. And? We all have to agree or we all have to hold our personalities in check? I don't think so. David is one of the more respected people on the Cow and if you know anything about these forums, many passionate people post here night and day. Just because I like David and we've worked behind the scenes on many issues in the past, doesn't mean I'm going to agree with everything he has to say and he's not going to agree with me on everything either. So we agree to disagree, just like Shane Ross and I did recently on a thread in the FCP forum regarding speed changes. Happens everyday. If you pull the thread, then you also pull Jeff Bernstein's well thought out post. I don't see anything out of line in this either thread like we've seen in other threads that had to be pulled. Walter Biscardi, Jr. Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions. STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now! Read my Blog! Respond to this post     Return to posts index

	Re: The Competition goes with HDMI by walter biscardi on May 11, 2008 at 4:47:49 pm [Chris Poisson] "Well then, we agree to disagree too. Bob Zelin was out of line and you know it." No, he wasn't. He's the most vocal and passionate person who only believes in the "right way to do things." David knows that, I know that and if new people coming into the forums are offended by Bob in any way, well then they would be in for a shock with the industry for the most part. I've met many people who are far more vocal than Bob and folks who would gladly steal your entire business out from under you while they smile and pat you on the back. Bob's a great guy and newbies would be wise to learn from him. You don't have to agree with him, but with all the years of experience behind him, Bob has the best understanding of the industry as a whole, and the Post industry in particular, of anyone I know. All you have to do is a search on Bob and you'll see his post here was no more, no less, than what he usually says. Walter Biscardi, Jr. Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions. STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now! Read my Blog! Respond to this post     Return to posts index

	Re: The Competition goes with HDMI by walter biscardi on May 11, 2008 at 11:56:57 pm [Chris Poisson] "See what I mean Walter? You are not always right, and a huge part of your responsibility as a forum leader is admitting that you are not perfect. Learn from this." Chris, I never claim to be perfect or to be right all the time. I stand by what I said in my original post. It's your decision to agree or disagree with that statement. Walter Biscardi, Jr. Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions. STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now! Read my Blog! Respond to this post     Return to posts index

	Re: The Competition goes with HDMI by walter biscardi on May 12, 2008 at 12:09:34 am [David Roth Weiss] "That Bob does this all the time and that it shows his "passion," makes it no less offensive to me, and I suspect I speak for many others on the Cow who simply find ridicule reprehensible and unacceptable." David, it's Bob's passion that got Ron and Kathlyn to make him a forum leader in the first place. Bob is an amazing engineer and speaks from first-hand experience of what does and does not work in the professional world. I learned that first-hand with his re-engineering of our facility. You can certainly talk to Ron and Kathlyn if you're offended by Bob's posting style, but he's been speaking his mind pretty much since day one. Walter Biscardi, Jr. Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions. STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now! Read my Blog! Respond to this post     Return to posts index

	Re: The Competition goes with HDMI by walter biscardi on May 12, 2008 at 12:16:18 am Jeremy, I found an HDMI resource here. I did not find any info on 4:4:4 and pro formats, it's all concerning consumer applications. http://www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/faq.aspx New HDMI 1.3 capabilities include: Higher speed: HDMI 1.3 increases its single-link bandwidth from 165MHz (4.95 gigabits per second) to 340 MHz (10.2 Gbps) to support the demands of future high definition display devices, such as higher resolutions, Deep Color™ and high frame rates. In addition, built into the HDMI 1.3 specification is the technical foundation that will let future versions of HDMI reach significantly higher speeds. * Deep color: HDMI 1.3 supports 30-bit, 36-bit and 48-bit (RGB or YCbCr) color depths, up from the 24-bit depths in previous versions of the HDMI specification. Walter Biscardi, Jr. Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions. STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now! Read my Blog! Respond to this post     Return to posts index