Audio Distorted - Kona 3
by lumiere (Lumiere)
on
Jul 19, 2007 at 2:29:31 am
Any reason why one out of 3 times, the audio coming out of the Kona 3 SDI (via BOB) to HDCAM deck would be distorted (static sound)?
My solution so far has been to restart the transfer (edit to tape) but it tends to creep up sometimes in the middle of a show... Network has already failed a few masters for "distorted audio".
Anyone experienced this before? Any recommendations?
Re: Audio Distorted - Kona 3 by JeremyG on Jul 19, 2007 at 4:08:47 am
Okay, one last time what version of the OS (operating system, OSX, 10.4.?)
Mixing down the audio in FCP does not mixdown the audio in the Avid or audio sense of the word. FCP basically condenses all the audio (in the proper channels that you have assigned) for easier playback. Select your whole timeline and hit command-option-r. It won't ruin anything, I promise. Your channel configurations will remain in tact.
Re: Audio Distorted - Kona 3 by weevie833 on Jul 19, 2007 at 4:17:33 am
I believe this a reference sync issue. I have had this problem with HDCam numerous times about a year ago. this was with K2, so it might not be the same problem.
Damn, I can't remember the magic combination but I think it involves the Control Panel set to Free Run, and then the HDCam deck has to be set to Video In for reference via the Setup menu [F2? F6? Should say so on the display panel]. I'm pretty sure it is that, or try some other combination of HDCam settings while running AJA in free Run.
It annoyed the hell outta me that my Ref in blackburst seemed to be insufficient to make the AJA and HDCam play nice together. Wasted much time getting it right, then remained paranoid ever since.
Sorry I'm being a weenie about the answer, but at least I've had the problem and found a way out of it, so hang in there.
Re: Audio Distorted - Kona 3 by lumiere on Jul 19, 2007 at 4:32:52 am
Jeremy,
I don't think you mean using the downmix option in the fcp audio mixer tool... my understanding is that will flatten my 4 channels into 2 and completely ruin my master.
Also, my understanding of command-option-r is just to render a downmix isn't it? It doesn't downmix it.
Re: Audio Distorted - Kona 3 by Ramona Howard on Jul 19, 2007 at 7:22:29 am
Frederic,
Haven't seen this issue on our side*. Proper Ref and ref settings play a huge role in getting this all right and can cause a variety of issues, something i'm sure you already know.
Cheers,
Ramona
*We develop our own product using the AJA line of boards
Re: Audio Distorted - Kona 3 by Ramona Howard on Jul 19, 2007 at 7:32:04 am
Forgot to add:
We are passing both multi channel files (up to 16 embedded) and single channel with no issue out of the board and into decks or any other devices.
One item to consider that hasn't been mentioned is Dolby E. This has to be passed bit for bit otherwise you will have issues. The AJA hardware supports the passing of Dolby E, how FCP handles that I can't help with but maybe someone can chime in that can.
Re: Audio Distorted - Kona 3 by lumiere on Jul 19, 2007 at 7:54:30 am
[Ramona Howard]"Haven't seen this issue on our side*. Proper Ref and ref settings play a huge role in getting this all right and can cause a variety of issues, something i'm sure you already know."
Thank you Ramona - Looks like Steve was right on, Genlock was on refin in Kona, switching it to Freerun seemed to solve the issue.
Re: Audio Distorted - Kona 3 by Bob Zelin on Jul 19, 2007 at 12:31:54 pm
WAIT ! There is absolutely no reason why you should operate any way other than with your Black reference going into your AJA Kona 3 BOB Reference IN, AND the same black reference going into the REF Video input of your HD VTR (and your VTR set for this reference signal - most HD VTR's have selections on the menus for 59.94 or 23.98). Weevie was correct in suspecting a reference issue. I ASSUME that you do have a reference signal going to your HD VTR, and I assume that
your STOP button on the HD VTR is not flashing (indicating no, or improper reference). Is this correct ?
This is not magic - reference your equipment properly and you should have no issues.
Re: Audio Distorted - Kona 3 by weevie833 on Jul 19, 2007 at 1:05:13 pm
Bob "the King of Sync" Zelin -
Oh, how I long for the simple days of Avid 11.x, with Ref in to everything and it just works.
Phooey! Not anymore. I tried setting everything to Ref In [AJA, decks] and had OK playback on monitor, but it would not output to DBeta. Had to switch the deck to Video Input, then switch it back to Ref in case someone wanted to output from the Avid [we had both for a while].
Same headaches when we got our HDCam deck. Granted, we were using SD ref in, but there were no issues with playback, striping or digitizing. Only output to tape, no matter which format/frame rate we used e.g. 23.98, 29.97, 59.94 -- which fostered the above solution to this original post.
The necessity to keep the Control Panel in Free Run defies all that I assumed to know up this point with regard to reference sync. Ideally, if I just SPENT THE MONEY [as you would say] for a tri-level sync, I probably wouldn't have any HD problems. But until recently, there hasn't been an affordable product. Thus, my inconvenience.
Surely, you have a solution for my inconvenience, but I've sliced and diced the issue a lot of ways already, and it seems no one solution works all the time. Beat me over the head if you wish.. It is your dharma.
Re: Audio Distorted - Kona 3 by Bob Zelin on Jul 19, 2007 at 10:48:17 pm
1) need affordable tri level sync - the AJA GEN 10 for $390 list price - available now ! Buy it.
2) if you have trouble with genlocking a Digi Beta VTR and the AJA Kona, and it only seems to work when you free run (I had this issue also) - DO NOT LET IT GO - this is either your crappy existing black generator, or a problem with your AJA Kona card. DO NOT LET AJA EVER GET AWAY WITH GENLOCK ISSUES - CALL AND COMPLAIN (I have). Magic work arounds are NOT acceptable - the Kona MUST be able to lock to house sync. If the answer is the new Gen10 - so be it - but you should NEVER accept "free run" as a workaround answer.
Re: Audio Distorted - Kona 3 by lumiere on Jul 20, 2007 at 1:20:36 am
[Bob Zelin]"2) if you have trouble with genlocking a Digi Beta VTR and the AJA Kona, and it only seems to work when you free run (I had this issue also) - DO NOT LET IT GO - this is either your crappy existing black generator, or a problem with your AJA Kona card. DO NOT LET AJA EVER GET AWAY WITH GENLOCK ISSUES - CALL AND COMPLAIN (I have). Magic work arounds are NOT acceptable - the Kona MUST be able to lock to house sync. If the answer is the new Gen10 - so be it - but you should NEVER accept "free run" as a workaround answer."
I never thought I had a genlock issue - the issue I had was that once in a while the audio would get scratchy for no reason. Another try would usually fix it. Going "free run" seemed to have fixed my scratchy audio issue.
Re: Audio Distorted - Kona 3 by weevie833 on Jul 20, 2007 at 2:27:09 pm
Frederic -
As you've probably surmised by now, the two variables are connected despite it seeming like they wouldn't be.
Digital decks have a funny way of being able to work ALMOST correctly under less than ideal situations because of their ability to conceal/correct. So an incorrect reference signal arrangement will actually cause audio distortions, sometimes minute enough to make you think it's something wrong with something else.
Unless there is A) something fundamentally bad about the source audio itself; B) a bad mix in the FCP timeline; C) something wrong with the AJA card or Mac, you can pretty much count on the problem being bad reference setup.
Re: Audio Distorted - Kona 3 by lumiere on Jul 20, 2007 at 1:14:09 am
[Bob Zelin]"WAIT ! There is absolutely no reason why you should operate any way other than with your Black reference going into your AJA Kona 3 BOB Reference IN, AND the same black reference going into the REF Video input of your HD VTR"
What do you recommend you set the Genlock option in AJA to?
Yes, it doesn't look like the deck is complaining about the reference.
Re: Audio Distorted - Kona 3 by Bob Zelin on Jul 20, 2007 at 1:43:48 am
I recommend that you set your Kona Control Panel to EXT REF, and not Free Run. If you purchase the GEN10 and own a Kona product, and you have the VTR referenced to external genlock (the GEN10), and your Kona is set to EXT REF (Control Tab in the Kona Control Panel), and you still get audio distortion, complain to AJA.
Re: Audio Distorted - Kona 3 by daryl burney on Jun 30, 2008 at 4:41:17 am
I also have had an ongoing problem with reference between AJA kona and a HDW2000.
I took your advise Bob and am trialing the Gen10...... It doesn't help. The HDCAM deck has no complaints with the trilevel ref. Deck to deck dubs, not a prob. ProTools to HDCAM deck not a prob. FCP to deck... a big problem. THe result is green artifacts and severe channel condition.
It seems the only way to master to HDCAM from FCP with the Kona card is as stated previously in this thread.....
HDW2000 set to reference on video input and FCP to freerun with no HDW2000 return video (this causes a loopback)
KONA it seems to me your card is not HDCAM ready. This method is but a work around. It is an embarrassment to master like this in front of clients. Not to mention tragically unreliable. Audio is often crackly/distorted sounding (also mentioned previously in this thread). Getting proper sync between the Kona card and FCP is just a matter of luck.
I have sung Kona's praises in the past and comverted many from the competition but am now left wondering...
WAS: Audio Distorted - Now REF issue. by gary adcock on Jun 30, 2008 at 5:55:20 pm
[daryl burney]"KONA it seems to me your card is not HDCAM ready"
Daryl
first off you are Hijacking a thread without changing the title.
I am not seeing these issues and I coming in and out of HDCam decks on a near daily basis. I regularly and recording from JH3 players and SRW series decks without any of the issues you describe.
Each and every time I hear about the REF issue on the 2000 deck I have 2 questions-
has the deck been updated via Sony Service?
are you sure about the settings?
It is only the oldest MDW2000's that exhibit this issue, and it is a harware issue in the deck from everything that I have been told.
Taking the Deck out of E E mode fixes it for most people. (that eliminates the pass thru issue for most)
gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD
Re: Audio Distorted - Kona 3 by walter biscardi on Jul 20, 2007 at 1:54:05 am
[lumiere]"Any reason why one out of 3 times, the audio coming out of the Kona 3 SDI (via BOB) to HDCAM deck would be distorted (static sound)?
My solution so far has been to restart the transfer (edit to tape) but it tends to creep up sometimes in the middle of a show... Network has already failed a few masters for "distorted audio"."
Where is the volume set on your Mac? It should not be set to full volume, but about 4 clicks from full volume. This is considered "unity."
That's the first thing I would check in addition to ensuring you're running the latest Kona drivers for your version of FCP.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Broadcast and independent productions.
All Things Apple Podcast! http://cowcast.creativecow.net/all_things_apple/index.html
Re: Audio Distorted - Kona 3 by lumiere on Jul 20, 2007 at 1:58:26 am
[walter biscardi]"Where is the volume set on your Mac? It should not be set to full volume, but about 4 clicks from full volume. This is considered "unity.""
I don't use the Kona audio for my Mac's audio output.
Re: Audio Distorted - Kona 3 by walter biscardi on Jul 20, 2007 at 10:22:49 am
[lumiere]"I don't use the Kona audio for my Mac's audio output.
I only use the Kona audio in FCP.
-20db tone is perfect on the deck."
The volume control on your Mac also controls the volume of the audio playback through your Kona card. The volume on your Mac should remain at four clicks from full. I have seen instances of full volume on a Mac causing some distortion on audio playback. that's why I asked. All of our machines are set to "unity."
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Broadcast and independent productions.
All Things Apple Podcast! http://cowcast.creativecow.net/all_things_apple/index.html
Re: Audio Distorted - Kona 3 by lumiere on Jul 20, 2007 at 11:22:05 am
[walter biscardi]"The volume control on your Mac also controls the volume of the audio playback through your Kona card. The volume on your Mac should remain at four clicks from full. I have seen instances of full volume on a Mac causing some distortion on audio playback. that's why I asked. All of our machines are set to "unity.""
My understanding is that this is only the case if you set your Mac's System Pref/Sound Output settings to use Kona to output audio which I don't do. For the very reason you mention (being vulnerable to your Mac audio output level).
Anyway, I don't think audio level is the cause of the issue here since:
1/ When the scratching goes away, no levels have been modified (just traying again)
2/ The deck shows a perfect -20db level on the tone
Re: Audio Distorted - Kona 3 by daryl burney on Jul 27, 2008 at 3:55:29 am
Although I am in the PAL/50i world I have been having the same distorted scratchy (even though levels are correct) audio on layback to my HDW2000.
As with you, rebooting will usually make it go away.
Even though everything is locking and you can master to tape it IS a reference problem.
This is how I solved it..
Of course trilevel sync eg "Gen10" is a must.
Then set Kona to reference.
The trick is with the menu settings on the HDW2000.
Set to the following:
F2: REF
Menu 309: Auto2
Menu 334: Normal
If you have a look at the manual you will notice that these settings will keep the deck stable using the REF input at all times but will switch to INPUT when you actually start editing to tape ie locking to the incoming video. No loopback occurs using the above settings.
If you have an early HDW like mine you may also need Sony to do a firmware upgrade. The firmware upgrade will stabilise the reference/loopback that can occur when you are sitting in "edit to tape" mode (just before actual mastering).
Hope this helps. This is working for me after many months of distorted audio frustration.
regards
Daryl Burney
post supervisor
editlounge pte ltd
Singapore
