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EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)

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Budrick21EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)
by on May 11, 2007 at 10:04:26 pm

I'll be brief. I'm in the middle of a long doc that was shot using DVCPro HD 720p 24, and captured via FireWire. We need to incorporate some DBeta footage, and Production Services hasn't been able to make SDI work correctly with the BM card. So the thinking is to replace the card in mid-doc and use a KONA 3.

I think I'm hosed.

Any advice? Soothing words? Decent hard liquor?


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David BattistellaRe: EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)
by on May 11, 2007 at 10:29:58 pm



If you captured via firewire then you are not hosed at all. That media is easliy transferable and can be read by the Kona card. The Kona 3 will handle the upconvert from D_beta (you'll just have to create an easy setup).

This should be relatively painless, but you should back everything up first.

David



Peace and Love :)
Read my Blog
http://blogs.creativecow.net/DavidBattistella


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Budrick21Re: EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)
by on May 11, 2007 at 10:51:56 pm

Thank you.


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walter biscardiRe: EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)
by on May 11, 2007 at 10:46:24 pm

[Budrick21] "
I think I'm hosed."


Nope, you're in perfect shape with the Kona 3. It actually works and you'll be able to upconvert the DigiBeta material just fine.

One thing there though, you say the DVCPro HD is 24 and of course your DBeta will be 29.97 so you'll have a frame rate mismatch there. One thing I would suggest is simply bringing in all the DVCPro HD material as 59.94 and it will all match up. You'll still get the 24p style, but your frame rates will match.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Broadcast and independent productions.

All Things Apple Podcast! http://cowcast.creativecow.net/all_things_apple/index.html

Read my blog! http://blogs.creativecow.net/WalterBiscardi


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Budrick21Re: EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)
by on May 11, 2007 at 10:55:36 pm

Unfortunately, the DVCPro HD footage (100 hours or so) is already captured. Is there something eles I need to to with this new footage? By the way, I just found out it's BetaSP, not DBeta.


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walter biscardiRe: EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)
by on May 11, 2007 at 10:59:20 pm

[Budrick21] "Unfortunately, the DVCPro HD footage (100 hours or so) is already captured. Is there something eles I need to to with this new footage? By the way, I just found out it's BetaSP, not DBeta."

Then go ahead and capture the BetaSP material like normal. Now you have two choices.

1 - just go ahead and edit with it as is and simply render each clip as you go along. Then when your project is finished, you go back and convert just those clips you used to 23.98 probably using Compressor.

2 - You do the capture, but convert everything first to 23.98 before editing anything into the timeline.

Really depends on how much BetaSP material you have and how fast your machine is. The faster your machine, the quicker it will render. I generally do the first option with all my SD / HD combination editing but I've only had about 40 hours HD max and maybe 20 minutes of SD max in any one combination project.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Broadcast and independent productions.

All Things Apple Podcast! http://cowcast.creativecow.net/all_things_apple/index.html

Read my blog! http://blogs.creativecow.net/WalterBiscardi


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Budrick21Re: EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)
by on May 11, 2007 at 11:09:42 pm

Thanks for you help Walter. I don't know how much Beta footage is coming, but it's at least two hours and could be much more. I think upconverting on capture is the way to go. If there is any rendering necessary, blood will be shed, and it will be mine.


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walter biscardiRe: EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)
by on May 11, 2007 at 11:12:17 pm

[Budrick21] "
Thanks for you help Walter. I don't know how much Beta footage is coming, but it's at least two hours and could be much more. I think upconverting on capture is the way to go. I"


Definitely Upconvert on the way in, it's just the frame rate that will need conversion later. Sorry, I should have been more clear on that.

If you need help setting up the Upconvert let us know. You actually set this up in the AJA Control Panel. You set up FCP for what you want to capture, say DVCPro HD 720/60 (to match the original frame rate from SD), but then in the AJA Control Panel, you set that up to upconvert the SD to HD on the way in.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Broadcast and independent productions.

All Things Apple Podcast! http://cowcast.creativecow.net/all_things_apple/index.html

Read my blog! http://blogs.creativecow.net/WalterBiscardi


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Budrick21Re: EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)
by on May 11, 2007 at 11:31:07 pm

Thanks. I just got off the phone with Jerry at AJA. He thought the upconversion could be done to match our footage, but then he tried it and found he couldn't. Anything else I should know about incorporating SD footage into HD?


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Bob ZelinRe: EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)
by on May 12, 2007 at 12:04:01 am

Anything else I should know about incorporating SD footage into HD?

REPLY - yes, NEVER work in 23.98 ever again. You are in the television business, and like everyone else, you must deal with 29.97 footage - it's a fact of life. Your DVCProHD VTR can output your 23.98 material at 59.94 (a normal frame rate for standard def upconverts). Had you done this (done your job at 59.94, and not 23.98), you would have had ZERO problems. But now, you will be in render hell (or you will recapture your entire project).

Make believe 23.98 doesn't even exist (unless you are the DP). Learn how to set all Sony and Panasonic VTRs to do the 2:3 pulldown, so you can always capture at 59.94.

Bob Zelin


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Bob ZelinRe: EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)
by on May 12, 2007 at 12:07:30 am

I just saw your post on the Blackmagic forum about this issue. Your "production services" department has never used a Blackmagic product, and they have never used an AJA product either ???? What kind of production services department are you dealing with ? I am not sure what kind of miracle you are looking for on these forums, but if you have no technical support to assist you with this in the middle of your project, I feel for you.

Bob Zelin


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Budrick21Re: EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)
by on May 12, 2007 at 12:20:24 am

It's not a great situation, except I love the product. The producers look to me for my technical abilities (!), but we actually have to use the union boys in Production Services. Nice guys, but the clock is always running...(ka-ching!)

As for the 23.98 issue, that was not my decision. The EP likes the look, so that's the look.


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walter biscardiRe: EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)
by on May 12, 2007 at 12:22:06 am

[Budrick21] "As for the 23.98 issue, that was not my decision. The EP likes the look, so that's the look."

Again, you can get the look, but edit in 59.94. That's what I do here all the time. Good Eats is shot in 30p for the most part, but we cut the show in 59.94 or 29.97 here.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Broadcast and independent productions.

All Things Apple Podcast! http://cowcast.creativecow.net/all_things_apple/index.html

Read my blog! http://blogs.creativecow.net/WalterBiscardi


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Budrick21Re: EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)
by on May 12, 2007 at 3:31:52 pm

So it's now Saturday morning and I'm in the room. I've captured a test clip of the Beta SP. It looks ok, FCP considers in DVCPro HD, it plays nice on the timeline....

BUT

I can't get a correct feed to the widescreen (not HD) monitor.
FCP - 720p 23.98 easy setup
KONA CONTROL PANEL - My instructions were to set 720p 23.98 as the Primary format and 525i, 29.97 as the Secondary format. If I select 720p as the Primary, everything in the Secondary dropdown list is disabled except 720p23.98 and 1080sf23.98, and I get a prompt that says "Intermediate only - secondary output format must be selected.'
I don't get a stable feed to the monitor this way.

If I choose 525i29.97 as Primary and 720p23.98 as secondary, I get a perfectly good 525 picture, but of course it appears squashed because it's really 720.

Walter, Jeremy, Beuhler, anybody? Beuhler?


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David BattistellaRe: EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)
by on May 12, 2007 at 3:51:47 pm



How were you monitoring it before?

Are you sending the monitor SDI or Component output?

Is it an HD monitor?

Do you have the latest KONA drivers loaded?

David



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Budrick21Re: EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)
by on May 12, 2007 at 4:02:30 pm

Thank you for asking. Yesterday we were using a BlackMagic card. I don't why it was changed - I was notified last night.

The monitor is component, not HD. Using 3.4 Kona driver.


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msacciRe: EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)
by on May 12, 2007 at 3:59:34 pm

Here are the settings that work for me to view 720P/23.98P on a standard TV.

Formats -
Prinary (Native) 720P59.94
Secondary (Converted) 525i29.97
- If you tv isn't 16:9 set cenversion Down to Letterbox.

Analog Outout
Secondary 525i29.97

In FCP make sure you also have AJA Kona 720P59.94 8 Bit set as the video playback.


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msacciRe: EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)
by on May 12, 2007 at 4:05:53 pm

I see that you did state that the tv is a widescreen so the Conversion of the Secondary should be set to Anamorphic (Format Tab)


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Budrick21YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES OH GOD YES
by on May 12, 2007 at 4:17:53 pm

You saw, you understood, you solved. Take your place in my Pantheon of Personal Heroes. Say hello to Jeremy while you're there.

My profound gratitude,
B21


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Budrick21OK, maybe that was a bit premature...Msacci- still on line?
by on May 12, 2007 at 5:11:51 pm

OK, so I'm capturing BetaSp to my DVCProHD project. Video is coming in, playing on the timeline, and visible in the monitor.

BUT--

the captured video plays back in SLO-MO! So the video is playing back at 29.97, and the Kona is capturing 59.94. This is not quite right.

What am I missing?


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Budrick2159.94 not 23.98
by on May 12, 2007 at 5:17:56 pm

That's the key


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Chris PoissonRe: EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)
by on May 22, 2007 at 9:53:48 pm

Walter,

How does 59.94 take care of both frame rates? I can't figure out the math...


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JeremyGRe: EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)
by on May 12, 2007 at 12:34:24 am

I see you are still alive...good thing.


I hear you for cutting in 24p, there's plenty of good reasons for it. Don't let Bob scare you.

Check out Nattress Standards converter, or use compressor like Walter said.

And with the blackmagic problem, you have gone into the sys prefs and changed the input to SDI? Did we go over this already?


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Budrick21Re: EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)
by on May 12, 2007 at 1:35:17 am

Thank you for remembering.

This is a new problem with the same project.

I'm at the mercy of the in-house techs, but now they want to use a different card.

I think I've got a handle on it, but I expect to be on the boards this weekend.

See you there!


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David SmithRe: EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)
by on May 12, 2007 at 11:41:43 am

I'm shocked that nobody has addressed the last part of your initial post! After exhausting research, I've found that 12 year old Talisker works with both the Blackmagic and AJA codecs, and is frame rate agnostic as well (but only if used straight up).


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GaryAlanRe: EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)
by on May 12, 2007 at 10:39:12 pm

I am very confused by this statement made by Budrick21 earlier on this very long thread.

Budrick21
Date: May 12, 2007 at 12:20:24 am
Subject: Re: EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)


... "The producers look to me for my technical abilities" ...



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Budrick21Re: EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)
by on May 13, 2007 at 11:54:04 am

Yes. Did you catch the intended irony? (!)


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LumiereRe: EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)
by on May 12, 2007 at 3:03:24 am

Actually, that's not true anymore.

Television (History Channel Family & others) prefers 24p. (d5 23.98) It's a universal master and makes going to PAL painless in comparison with 29.97.

Another huge advantage of cutting dvcpro hd in 23.98 is space saving. Less than 50% of 60. I know, Panasonic isn't using repeat flags but stores the full information for each and every frame (even the repeated ones).

In the HD world, 24p is quickly becoming the defacto.

Frederic



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msacciRe: EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)
by on May 12, 2007 at 2:25:36 pm

We have use Magic Bullet to convert concerts shot DBeta 29.97 to 24P. Also Shake does a great job of this.

My workflow would be Up Convert/Capture at 59.97, Convert to 23.98 and then bring into FCP to edit, no rendering each time you make a change.


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David BattistellaRe: EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)
by on May 12, 2007 at 3:37:38 pm



You can also add pulldown to 29.97 footage when you capture it. If you wanted to capture the betacam footage at 23.98 the Kona card will introduce the pulldown for you. I have done this to mix and match footage in 23.98 projects.

David



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Bob ZelinRe: EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)
by on May 12, 2007 at 6:11:56 pm

I feel this guys pain - he has to work, and produce an edited show, but this entire process was not thought out, and handled incorrectly.

Everyone that owns an HD camera wants to shoot in 23.98 (stop saying 24, because some cameras will operate at 24 FPS, and this is WRONG FOR EVERYONE except George Lucas). Almost every modern VTR can do a 2:3 pulldown, to convert to 59.94 - certainly EVERY Panasonic HD VTR ever produced can do this, and all modern Sony models have 2:3 pulldown as an option or come standard. And if you are stuck with the HDW-M2000 or HDW-S280, the AJA FS-1, or Cobalt Digital 8021 will do the hardware pulldown for you. Of course, you can ultimately go into the Playback Settings (or output tool in the AVID) and do your 2:3 pulldown to 59.94.

With that said, I want to address the people that must deal with a 23.98 timeline, or a Universal Master (as made so popular by the AVID Symphony when all of this started to happen). Anyone that has to deal with STANDARD DEF VIDEO like Beta, Digi Beta, and MUST DELIVER A TELEVISION SHOW for broadcast - if you work a 23.98 timeline, you are a moron (saving storage or not). If you have delivery requirements that insist on a 23.98 master (and your footage is primarily Digi Beta or Beta, or other standard def footage), you must CALL THE CHIEF ENGINEER OF THAT CHANNEL, INCLUDING DISCOVERY CHANNEL, and say "are you a moron, we are working with 29.97 footage, and 59.94 footage, you are OUT OF YOUR MINDS for requiring a 23.98 master. The people making these delivery requirements are not the manangement paying for your show. It is your responsibility to FIGHT BACK to stupid delivery requirements - and I know there are plenty of them (like Discoverys insistance of the Dolby 5.1 audio monitor to post a show).
If you do nothing, you will continue to get insane delivery requirements, and have to keep looking for ways to get around things.
Universal Masters is only one of many new things that come from assorted stations around the country, that we must deal with.

I fully appreciate the situation of working with a 23.98 timeline, and then be thrust into standard def 29.97 to be included into this timeline.


Bob Zelin


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JeremyGRe: EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)
by on May 12, 2007 at 9:34:37 pm

Bob, in all honesty, you have to get with the times man. They are a changing. I mean no disrepect...none at all. But it ain't an all 29.97 world and we don't deliver on 3/4" anymore. There are plenty of reasons to work in a 23.98 environment that aren't moronic...plenty. Since HD is newer format and everything in the archival world was not shot in HD @ 23.98 we have to deal with it and use the old stuff with the new stuff. There are tools at our disposal to get this shit done and no one here is moron to have to use them.


Jeremy


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Bob ZelinRe: EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)
by on May 12, 2007 at 11:39:17 pm

I am trying to get with the times Jeremy. If you are working on a product that will be theatrically released, 23.98 is the only way to work. However, when delivering to a television enviornment, which will run their facility at 29.97 (or 59.94), I question the 23.98 workflow in post. I question 23.98 when much of the source material you are working with is standard def 29.97. I question 23.98 workflow, when major cable providers, like VIACOM, won't even accept an HD master for air (VH-1 and MTV, for example). Believe me, I am trying to get wtih the times - when will 90% of the stations in the US get with the times, however. To torture this poor editor, trying to deliver a product, and force him to work at 23.98, and have him use all these conversion tools, just so he can make his standard def Beta or Digi Beta into a 23.98 workflow, just so it can be converted back to 29.97 for broadcast MAKES NO SENSE. Saying that "you will save room in storage" is not an acceptable answer when storage is so inexpensive these days. Believe me, I am trying to get with the times.

By the way, do you know that Discovery is expected to require a SRW 4:4:4 delivery soon ? Is that getting with the times, or do you fight with them ?


Bob Zelin



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msacciRe: EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)
by on May 12, 2007 at 11:48:50 pm

Not one to jump into a fight, but one thing that seems to be overlooked is this editor has a project that is under way - a 23.98 timeline and captured footage. He now needs to add some SD to that timeline. So he can start from sratch and go with a 29.97 timeline and recapture everything or he can make the new footage work with the 23.97 timeline he already has. Seems to me he should just upconvert the SD to HD and then convert the frame rate of the new footage he has to use.

Then when done the debate over what frame rate is best to start with can be engaged.


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JeremyGRe: EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)
by on May 13, 2007 at 1:01:02 am

[msacci] "but one thing that seems to be overlooked is this editor has a project that is under way - a 23.98 timeline and captured footage."

This has been discussed and suggestions have been given, and Budrick21 obviously knows we are here if they need help.


Jeremy



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Budrick21Back on track - an update, and many thanks
by on May 13, 2007 at 12:18:11 pm

A little history on this project:

It's a two-hour science documentary that was begun by another team of producers. How and why they chose the format they did, I don't know.

Because of creative differences, the Executive Producer took the project away from the original team and brought it in-house. The facility is healthy-sized, with a subtstantial installed Avid base, but a desire to move to Final Cut. The techs know Avid but have never seen a BM or Kona card. Contractors like me are not supposed to alter the equipment, even though I was brought in for my "technical knowledge" (it's true!)

The lead editor (I'm the assistant) is also an Avid guy, but knows some Final Cut. So I'm a support player, and expected to be able to solve technical issues and FCP questions.

We start with a BlackMagic card, but word is that the editor wasn't happy with it, so the techs swapped in a Kona card. At that point we leave my area of expertise, such as it is, and I turn to you guys ( tech support managed to install the Kona before I got in, and left me nice note to the effect of, "You're all set, except for picture and sound.")

Just to add to the fun, I had a detailed set of instructions given to me directly by someone at AJA, who gave me the wrong settings. I found it was possible, but not desirable, to upconvert 525i to 23.98p.

Yes, it was a headache and it cost me a half-day, but thanks to those of you who responed, I found my way through the thicket.

It may sound like a nightmare, but I'm a freelancer and some of this goes with the territory. On the plus side, it pays reasonably and I like the project.

So thanks again, and good luck to you all.

Budrick


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Bob ZelinRe: Back on track - an update, and many thanks
by on May 13, 2007 at 3:00:11 pm

The only person who should be proud here, is Budrick. He is working with a bunch of people that cannot be bothered with anything new, and Budrick, who is a FREELANCE assistant editor, has put the effort out to MAKE IT HAPPEN, despite the incompetance of the technical staff "that only knows AVID equipment" - let me assure you, they are probably weak at AVID equipment, and can't be bothered with anything new. There is nothing wrong with Blackmagic hardware, and if they can't put the time into figuring out how to get Blackmagic stuff to work, they can't be bothered figuring out how to get AJA stuff to work. It is you, Budrick, who are putting in the effort. You should be proud of yourself, and you will go far, as you are not like the lazy good for nothing people that you are surrounded by. Sorry for being so gruff. The "AVID only" staff are the very same people that used to say that "AVID SUCKS" when linear systems were prevalent in our industry.

Bob Zelin



It's a two-hour science documentary that was begun by another team of producers. How and why they chose the format they did, I don't know.

Because of creative differences, the Executive Producer took the project away from the original team and brought it in-house. The facility is healthy-sized, with a subtstantial installed Avid base, but a desire to move to Final Cut. The techs know Avid but have never seen a BM or Kona card. Contractors like me are not supposed to alter the equipment, even though I was brought in for my "technical knowledge" (it's true!)

The lead editor (I'm the assistant) is also an Avid guy, but knows some Final Cut. So I'm a support player, and expected to be able to solve technical issues and FCP questions.

We start with a BlackMagic card, but word is that the editor wasn't happy with it, so the techs swapped in a Kona card. At that point we leave my area of expertise, such as it is, and I turn to you guys ( tech support managed to install the Kona before I got in, and left me nice note to the effect of, "You're all set, except for picture and sound.")

Just to add to the fun, I had a detailed set of instructions given to me directly by someone at AJA, who gave me the wrong settings. I found it was possible, but not desirable, to upconvert 525i to 23.98p.

Yes, it was a headache and it cost me a half-day, but thanks to those of you who responed, I found my way through the thicket.

It may sound like a nightmare, but I'm a freelancer and some of this goes with the territory. On the plus side, it pays reasonably and I like the project.


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ktofmdRe: Back on track - an update, and many thanks
by on May 23, 2007 at 3:05:02 pm

Hi, all. Reading this lengthy thread gave me knots in my stomache. I probably qualify somewhere in between the AVID editor Budrick21 was working with and a wannabe Budrick21. I have worked blissfully on AVID as a preditor for years. Always 29.97, always SD, and in a system set up by technician.

But as the migration in formats was coming about, I moved to a small facility where I serve as the technician, editor, and coffee maker--and I also edit on-site for some clients. I am trying to migrate into FCP, and HD (naturally). I understand how to do a cut, a dissolve and a whatever, but I don't know what I DON'T know--the technical stuff, and it's killing me. What would this esteemed group's recommendation be for a dummies guide (or a class) to the technical world of kona cards, 24p, downconverting, etc. something that will get me over my ignorance hump, and allow me to understand if my problem is I/O error (Ignorant Operator) or a technical shortcoming, and what to do to address it.

Thanks!


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Budrick21Re: Back on track - an update, and many thanks
by on May 23, 2007 at 6:26:07 pm

kenstone.net has lots of good info. I don't know of a Dummies Guide to Everything. There are so many combinations of hardware and software, I think it's all about problem solving and knowing where to go for help (like here.) People talk about HD, but there's more than one flavor. I was using DCVPRO HD 24p, and was mixing that with SD 480i. Supposedly in FCP 6 you can mix and match on the timeline, but I didn't have that option.

The cow has saved my butt more than once.

Thanks, Cow!


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JeremyGRe: Back on track - an update, and many thanks
by on May 23, 2007 at 7:21:31 pm

[ktofmd] "What would this esteemed group's recommendation be for a dummies guide (or a class) to the technical world of kona cards, 24p, downconverting, etc. something that will get me over my ignorance hump, and allow me to understand if my problem is I/O error (Ignorant Operator) or a technical shortcoming, and what to do to address it."


YOu have a lot of the resources you need at the Cow. Search when you have problems, post if you can't find the answer. It's situations like yours that places like the cow excel. Reading manuals never hurts either.

Jeremy



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JeremyGRe: EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)
by on May 13, 2007 at 1:26:27 am

[Bob Zelin] " However, when delivering to a television enviornment, which will run their facility at 29.97 (or 59.94), I question the 23.98 workflow in post."

The conversion to PAL and other formats alone is the great reason (which has been mentioned earlier). As long as we are talking about multi formats, a 23.98 web movie will stream a lot faster than a 59.94. Also making a progressive image will display a lot better on digital monitors than an interlaced one. Let's face it, the times are a changing. You can watch tv on cell phones/ipods, all progressive displays. 23.98 is much better as it not only saves on bandwidth (I know you list this an an invalid argument, but on the contrary it's a huge talking point) but you can virtually get to any other format easily. FIlm, NTSC TV, PAL TV, web, ipod, sling box, cardboard box, whatever.


[Bob Zelin] "I question 23.98 when much of the source material you are working with is standard def 29.97"

Well if MUCH of the material is 29.97, then yes, but if 5% of it is, then we as editors have to deal with that. SD is not HD is not SD. We deal.

[Bob Zelin] "I question 23.98 workflow, when major cable providers, like VIACOM, won't even accept an HD master for air (VH-1 and MTV, for example)"

Agreed, but that has nothing to do with 23.98, that has to do with HD vs SD, another discussion.

AS far as Hd deliverables, yeah, maybe it's not time yet, but that's not the editors fault nor are they a moron. See where I am going with that? They are not a moron. The most of his project was 23.98 and then at the last minute they bring in SD stuff, he has to deal with it. No biggie. He's not a moron for that, especially with a Kona 3.

[Bob Zelin] "Saying that "you will save room in storage" is not an acceptable answer when storage is so inexpensive these days. Believe me, I am trying to get with the times. "

That's not the only answer, see a few answers above. A 23.98 progressive master goes to virtually any other format, and probably some that you aren't even thinking of that go beyond tv in the living room.

[Bob Zelin] "By the way, do you know that Discovery is expected to require a SRW 4:4:4 delivery soon ? Is that getting with the times, or do you fight with them ? "

No I don't fight with them. I have never done a Discovery HD show, but I tell ya, that's some great looking HD on that channel and I could see why they are trying to maintain quality. Does that mean you have to shoot 4:4:4 for them as well or just deliver an srw master?

Jeremy



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gary adcockRe: EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)
by on May 14, 2007 at 4:36:54 pm

"[Bob Zelin] "By the way, do you know that Discovery is expected to require a SRW 4:4:4 delivery soon ? Is that getting with the times, or do you fight with them ? "

that's not correct Bob,
they want HDCam SR just like everyone's else Spec's, SR can be many things even 720p.

Discovery wants 4:4;4 master only on productions that are acquired in RGB, which is standard for RGB acquired materials.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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gary adcockRe: EXTREMELY URGENT - NOW 24p =23,98
by on May 14, 2007 at 4:23:18 pm

[Bob Zelin] "veryone that owns an HD camera wants to shoot in 23.98 (stop saying 24, because some cameras will operate at 24 FPS, and this is WRONG FOR EVERYONE except George Lucas)."

Sorry Bob I Disagree.

it would be not be better since the vast majority of people out there working in 24p (23.98) to keep that nomenclature correct that those that work in 24.0 (or 24 TRUE) define themselves. Let the minority identify themselves, let the majority be 23.98

The overwhelming majority of people working in production today have little or no understanding of film or film production, or what the difference between 24.0 and 23.98.
I am absolutely aghast wow many people also seem to be convinced that shooting 24pA will give you 24.0 while shooting 24p gives you 23.98.

I am sorry but I think this a an ass backwards way to go.
Less and Less people are shooting 24.0 in the modern production and I work with camera and productions that can and do shot 24.0 daily, but I tell them not to, there is no need, all of the tape machines handle 23.98 footage, as do all NLEs.
You way of thinking will make it harder that it is.



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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DopeElfRe: EXTREMELY URGENT - NOW 24p =23,98
by on May 14, 2007 at 7:53:43 pm

I am so glad I live in PAL land. We usually edit 25i or 25p, and even if we get material in the other standard in the middle of the project, no worries, it'll playback fine. We don't have a thing called SETUP. Though, I should keep my mouth closed, most of the world was digital when I enterd the business and I know enough to turn down or solve problem projects.

/Pasi

http://kanalje.se - site in Swedish


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JeremyGRe: EXTREMELY URGENT - NOW 24p =23,98
by on May 15, 2007 at 6:16:15 pm

[DopeElf] "We don't have a thing called SETUP"

NTSC doesn't either, unless you are mastering SD analog :-D

This isn't a problem project, it is the normal, run of the mill 24p <-> NTSC dealings that are part of our job.





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Graeme NattressRe: EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)
by on May 22, 2007 at 10:03:59 pm

What if the broadcaster has a requirement (as they should) for any 24p material to have a constant 3:2 pulldown cadence? This is vital for anyone watching on a modern flat display as otherwise you'll probably get a blip on each edit while the pulldown remove circuit in the display tries to figure out what's happening to the 3:2 pattern every few seconds as you cut, cut cut.

Graeme

- http://www.nattress.com - Film Effects and Standards Conversion for FCP


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glennserRe: EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)
by on May 22, 2007 at 11:34:10 pm

Sorry Bob but I also have to agree with Jeremy and Gary and do not appreciate being called a moron for working at 23.98 fps instead of 29.97, please tell me why I would have the deck insert pulldown during capture when I could capture progressive 23.98, work at that framerate and then insert pulldown if necessary on the fly during output if I want it?
I think you'd be surprised at how practical the universal master workflow is too, we deliver pal and ntsc as well as HD and working at 23.98 is great for us.
True most of our source material comes from feature films but I'm not going to attempt to persuade every DP, director and client in the world that 23.98 is for morons, that's what they want and dammit that's what they'll get.

Glennser

PS can you explain your workflow for delivering PAL and ntsc from 59.94 source material? Once you break the cadence removing pulldown is a real pain and shooting at 59.94 is never going to look good at 25fps


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gary adcockRe: EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)
by on May 23, 2007 at 12:44:25 pm

[glennser] "PS can you explain your workflow for delivering PAL and ntsc from 59.94 source material? Once you break the cadence removing pulldown is a real pain and shooting at 59.94 is never going to look good at 25fps"

how true.


gary adcock
Studio37
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jjbriquetRe: EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)
by on May 23, 2007 at 12:29:56 am

Rigth on Graeme, that would be a nightmare for people editing 24p material with added pull down on ingest...


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gary adcockRe: EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)
by on May 23, 2007 at 12:42:51 pm

[Graeme Nattress] "What if the broadcaster has a requirement (as they should) for any 24p material to have a constant 3:2 pulldown cadence?"

Gman

there is not a delivery spec for OTA broadcast for 24p, (yet), and the only 24p that is supported for delivery does not have pulldown ( 1080 24PsF)

gary adcock
Studio37
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Graeme NattressRe: EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)
by on May 23, 2007 at 6:24:29 pm

I'm talking about how all 24p gets broadcast, as 29.97fps with 3:2 pulldown. That pulldown cadence needs to be constant or else you upset people with flat screens or video projectors. Best way to achieve that is to edit as 24p and add the 3:2 on way out to tape, and then it's totally constant. You know what I mean!



- http://www.nattress.com - Film Effects and Standards Conversion for FCP


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