Kona 3 HD Downconvert doesn't look very good???
by CapturedLive
on
Apr 28, 2006 at 5:27:51 am
Hello,
We are trying to get a great-looking down convert from our 1080 60i master. We tried our Decklink HD's downconversion output, and YIKES, it was bad, so I popped for a Kona3. It looks somewhat better, but still not close to good enough for a final master. Am I expecting too much? We are seeing all sorts of noise, compression artifacts and some color loss. The HD master looks great. Are we always going to have to outsource the final master for downconversion? I am going to Sunset Digital tomorrow to look at what they can do, I am hoping it will look good. Anyone else have opinions on the built-in Kona3 downconverter? Is it just good for work-copies? It's not a super-cheap card, but it's not a Yukon either...
Producer / Technical Supervisor
Captured Live Productions
www.caplive.com
Re: Kona 3 HD Downconvert doesn't look very good??? by walter biscardi on Apr 28, 2006 at 10:42:42 am
[CapturedLive]"It looks somewhat better, but still not close to good enough for a final master. Am I expecting too much? We are seeing all sorts of noise, compression artifacts and some color loss. The HD master looks great."
Are you looking at this on a broadcast monitor? HD to SD Downconvert is perfect on our Kona 2 and what I saw at NAB was perfect on the Kona 3 as well. We're mastering broadcast shows in both HD and SD through the Kona and it's broadcast quality pristine.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
Director, "The Rough Cut"
http://www.theroughcutmovie.com
Now Posting "Good Eats" in HD for the Food Network
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters
Re: Kona 3 HD Downconvert doesn't look very good??? by Bob Zelin on Apr 28, 2006 at 5:05:26 pm
I totally agree with Walter- the downconvert looks teriffic, and this is readily seen by looking at it on a multi-scan monitor, like a Sony PVM-20L5/1, where you can instantly switch between the HD signal and the analog NTSC 525 signal, simply by using the Kona control panel.
BUT even if you still think this sucks, every HD VTR has a SD convert output (like the HDW-F500, or the Panasonic AJ-HD1200A), so just make an HD master, and make a SD downconvert out dub to your Digi Beta, or Beta VTR.
Re: Kona 3 HD Downconvert doesn't look very good??? by JeremyG on Apr 28, 2006 at 6:19:30 pm
How are you trying to down-convert? Tell me the steps that you have done using the Kona 3. AJA products operate a little differently than BMD products. the down-covert should look awesome as it's done in hardware and most BMD cards do this in software. As far as a loss of color, that might be the translation between 709 and 601 color space. It shouldn't be dramatic, but the color will pop a little more in HD.
Re: Kona 3 HD Downconvert doesn't look very good??? by walter biscardi on Apr 28, 2006 at 7:10:02 pm
[JeremyG]"As far as a loss of color, that might be the translation between 709 and 601 color space. It shouldn't be dramatic, but the color will pop a little more in HD."
there's definitely a loss of color when dropping down to SD as that's just the nature of SD. In fact, i usually have to pull back on the colors in my CC'ing when laying off to SD to ensure the colors are not only legal, but look good in the SD color space, especially reds.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
Director, "The Rough Cut"
http://www.theroughcutmovie.com
Now Posting "Good Eats" in HD for the Food Network
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters
Re: Kona 3 HD Downconvert doesn't look very good??? by CapturedLive on Apr 29, 2006 at 8:15:46 am
You can see the setups I tried in my last post.
HDCAM->Kona3->Monitor component out from the Kona was the best looking, but still unacceptable. Lots of scaling artifacts and some noise.
The primary was set to 1080 60i and the secondary was set to 525i downconvert. I was looking at the component and composite out of the Kona3 and was not happy with the results. I then captured the SD SDI signal out of the Kona to a Decklink and played it back on a Decklink Extreme system just to make sure it wasn't the monitor or the Kona's analog outputs. It looked exactly the same. I am returning the Kona 3.
The good news is I went to Sunset Digital today to look at a test through their Snell and Wilcox Yukon, and it looked AMAZING. If they had told me I was looking at the HD when I walked it I might have believed it, but it was the SD Digibeta test they had running on the monitor. It looked so great. All I can say is that for this project, there was no way I was going to accept a Kona3 downconvert for my final product. It's costing some real money to get the transfer done, but it is the only way. I would love to be able to downconvert in house, but I would never settle for the results I was getting. Kudos to Sunset Digital and their staff for saving the day.
Producer / Technical Supervisor
Captured Live Productions
www.caplive.com
Re: Kona 3 HD Downconvert doesn't look very good??? by walter biscardi on Apr 29, 2006 at 8:20:25 am
[CapturedLive]"HDCAM->Kona3->Monitor component out from the Kona was the best looking, but still unacceptable. Lots of scaling artifacts and some noise."
Really no clue what's going on with your setup to see that kind of noise or artifacts. You shouldn't need any sort of external third party box to do any sort of downconvert with either the Kona 2 or 3. Sounds almst like an issue with your original footage or your Capture / Sequence setings.
As I've noted before, image is completely pristine here with broadcast quality downconvert. If it wasn't, the products wouldn't be here.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
Director, "The Rough Cut"
http://www.theroughcutmovie.com
Now Posting "Good Eats" in HD for the Food Network
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters
Re: Kona 3 HD Downconvert doesn't look very good??? by Bob Zelin on Apr 29, 2006 at 6:08:43 pm
Hi Mr. Captured Live -
you are obviously in LA, so you have great access to the top video engineers in the country. You are doing SOMETHING WRONG with your system, and I don't know what it is, but your downconvert should be great. You need to bring in someone to help you with your system. You have the DR Group in LA, one of the best AJA dealers in the country - you should ask for their help. The Kona 3 is a great product, and I would be surprised if Sunset Digital did not own AJA equipment as well.
Re: Kona 3 HD Downconvert doesn't look very good??? by CapturedLive on Apr 29, 2006 at 7:46:59 pm
I am in NO WAY trying to badmouth Aja, I am just completely baffled as to what the problem could be. The Kona3 is a very straightforward card, so I don't know how I COULD be doing anything wrong. There aren't any options with the downconvert, so I don't see where the problem could be. If you guys saw the results I was getting, you'd feel the same way, it looks funky. Maybe is has to do with the fact it was DVCPROHD? I don't know. We didn't do anything wrong. The HD master looks great, and the SD version from Sunset Digital looked great too. The SD downconvert out of the HDCAM deck, the Decklink HD, and the Aja all looked really bad by comparison. I don't know what to say. I'd love to compare the Aja and the Yukon downconverts side by side when we get our tape back from Sunset on Monday. Maybe I can post some screen captures for you guys to look at.
I trust all of your opinions that the card should look good, and believe me, I want it to look good, it would save us a lot of money, but with this project, something is causing major artifacts on the downconversion. Anyone have any valid theories?
-Evan
Producer / Technical Supervisor
Captured Live Productions
www.caplive.com
Re: Kona 3 HD Downconvert doesn't look very good??? by CapturedLive on Apr 30, 2006 at 2:48:42 am
I will call you guys as soon as we ship the DLT on this project. I simply didn't have time to figure this out for this project but I'm very curious to figure out what the issue is. Thanks.
Producer / Technical Supervisor
Captured Live Productions
www.caplive.com
Re: Kona 3 HD Downconvert doesn't look very good??? by walter biscardi on Apr 30, 2006 at 3:39:29 pm
[CapturedLive]"Anyone have any valid theories?"
I would do what Bob Zelin suggested and get somebody in your shop or call AJA Tech Support to find out what is going on. Downconvert is a very straightforward thing with everthing happening in the card. In 2 years of running the K2 I've never seen anything like that no matter what the originated footage.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
Director, "The Rough Cut"
http://www.theroughcutmovie.com
Now Posting "Good Eats" in HD for the Food Network
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters
Re: Kona 3 HD Downconvert doesn't look very good??? by CapturedLive on Apr 30, 2006 at 9:06:35 pm
Does anyone in the LA area have a system set up with a HD/SD switchable broadcast monitor and a Kona3 I could bring our DVCPROHD file over to and check it out? Let me know, and what you'd charge me. Thanks. If you have a Digibeta deck all the better so I can compare our output from Sunset Digital with what the Kona can do. Thanks.
-Evan
Producer / Technical Supervisor
Captured Live Productions
www.caplive.com
Re: Kona 3 HD Downconvert doesn't look very good??? by tony salgado on May 1, 2006 at 6:59:31 am
I wonder if the problems you describe have anything to do with your viewing monitor. Depending on how it was calibrated and the model of the monitor used you will get vastly different results compared to what Sunset is using in their bays with the aid and support of a full time engineering staff.
HDV is 4:2:0 so I would expect to see some bad chroma artifacts after multiple generations.
Re: Kona 3 HD Downconvert doesn't look very good??? by gary adcock on May 1, 2006 at 3:24:58 pm
I'm going to jump in the fray backing both Walter and Bob,
I have not seen any issues with the Down-convert from any of the Kona Boards, Walter and I both were amazed at the quality of the NAB 2K demo being shown at HD and NTSC rez with virtually no loss.
you are not trying to go to PAL are you???
you have checked your Kona Control Panel to make sure everything is correct?
did you check the cabling? ( and change them just to be safe)
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Chicago, IL
gary@studio37.com
