| Apple acknowledges 720p capture bug (subclips) in FCP 5
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• | | | |  | Re: Apple acknowledges 720p capture bug (subclips) in FCP 5
by Walter Biscardi on Dec 7, 2005 at 11:23:12 am |
[Oliver Busch] "Some workarounds on that webpage.
Seems it has to do with serial device control."
Actually no it doesn't. I run my 1200A via Firewire control all the time since I leave my Sony J3 deck hooked up via RS-422 Control. I get the issue with every single clip captured with Firewire control. Not really sure where they got the idea it was a Serial Control issue.
This issue affects ALL frame rates via HD-SDI, not just 59.94.
Also, this issue doesn't solve the problem of re-capturing where FCP won't re-connect to media correctly in the event you have to bring back a project later.
Really the article just looks like a re-hashing of information from the Cow Forums.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
"The Rough Cut," an original short film premiering December 7th in full High Definition in Atlanta.
rsvp@biscardicreative.com to reserve seats.
http://www.theroughcutmovie.com
Now editing "Good Eats" in HD for the Food Network
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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• | | | |  | Re: Apple acknowledges 720p capture bug (subclips) in FCP 5
by David Battistella on Dec 7, 2005 at 2:14:13 pm |
Walter,
The thiing I love about this is that we pulled that thread together and had a bunch of users submitting the same feedback. Have we found a chink in the Apple armour? Do they actually listen? In this case it appears that they felt they had to respond with that web page. Chalk one up for democracy.
On a larger note. I'm not sure that we will see this fixxed before INTEL. I am not sure we will see another major release of FCP (My top three wants for a new release have little to do with bells and whistles and more do do with core stuff:
1.)A better media manager,
2.) A completely new Capture interface,
3.) Working audio meters during capture.
4.)A few interface changes.
5.)A background rendering option.
6.)A new core slo-motion technology.
Just the things that I feel would put the "PRO" in Final Cut Pro.
David
PS: Thanks Oliver for the original post.
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• | | | | | Re: Apple acknowledges 720p capture bug (subclips) in FCP 5
by Walter Biscardi on Dec 7, 2005 at 4:04:07 pm |
[David Battistella] "The thiing I love about this is that we pulled that thread together and had a bunch of users submitting the same feedback. Have we found a chink in the Apple armour? Do they actually listen? In this case it appears that they felt they had to respond with that web page. Chalk one up for democracy."
well then I think it's time to hit them with another round of Feedback so we can move beyond the acknowledgement and actually fix it. Y'all can go back down and find my feedback form and start sending it off again.
The thing that's really funny to me is 720p / 25 works just fine in HD-SDI. The one format I don't use for anything. Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
"The Rough Cut," an original short film premiering December 7th in full High Definition in Atlanta.
rsvp@biscardicreative.com to reserve seats.
http://www.theroughcutmovie.com
Now editing "Good Eats" in HD for the Food Network
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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• | | | |  | Re: Apple acknowledges 720p capture bug (subclips) in FCP 5
by gary adcock on Dec 8, 2005 at 3:15:31 pm |
[Walter Biscardi] "The thing that's really funny to me is 720p / 25 works just fine in HD-SDI. "
Actually there are more than that Walter, all of the offspeed captures work correctly with the Kona, so any type of acquisition that is not based around the "native" time bases (those that capture over FW)
This is the one that confuses me, it works when it is the most complicated type of HDSDI capture not when it is the easiest.
Gary Adcock
Studio37
HD and Film Consultation
Chicago, IL USA
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• | | | |  | Re: Apple acknowledges 720p capture bug (subclips) in FCP 5
by paul on Dec 7, 2005 at 6:27:38 pm |
Mixed formats in same timeline please as well......
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• | | | | | Re: Apple acknowledges 720p capture bug (subclips) in FCP 5
by David Battistella on Dec 7, 2005 at 6:54:32 pm |
I wonder why people want the "mixed formats feature.
This is a hardware driven solution and it means that somewhere along the line something suffers. Why not just capture everything to the same codec.
David
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• | | | |  | Re: Apple acknowledges 720p capture bug (subclips) in FCP 5
by Post Office Video on Dec 7, 2005 at 8:48:29 pm |
The reason we want mixed formats in the timeline is that it is a mixed format world. I get stuff in all the time on betacam, DV, DVcam, HDV tapes etc. and directly in animation w-alpha, image sequences, Windows Media & AVI formats. I don't want to convert digital to analog to digital just to get the same format, I love being able to pan & scan HD in an SD timeline, and I will never tell my customers that I cannot use some video because it is in the wrong format. The varieties of video keep increasing, especially in the Web and portable device areas. I want to accomodate all the business I can, at the best quality, least hassle, least time. That is why I want mixed formats real time in the timeline.
Chris Paul
POV
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• | | | | | Re: Apple acknowledges 720p capture bug (subclips) in FCP 5
by David Battistella on Dec 7, 2005 at 9:35:57 pm |
Chris,
I agree that it is a mixxed format world but it would be pretty hard to accoomplish what you are talking about in a software only solution.
Can we really expect FCP to intercut HD uncompressed with windows media and quicktimes encoded with up to 20 different codecs. To top that off we can't even use MP3 directly an FCP timeline and you want it to be able to do that much with video. I think it's a pipe dream. Sure, I'd love it, but it would be virtually impossible from an engineering standpoint.
Oh and throw the old alpha channel in there too while you are at it.
Wait a sec. I want them to guarentee that I will never have to render a frame of vieo again. ever.
;)
David
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• | | | | | Re: Apple acknowledges 720p capture bug (subclips) in FCP 5
by Walter Biscardi on Dec 8, 2005 at 1:47:10 pm |
[David Battistella] "Can we really expect FCP to intercut HD uncompressed with windows media and quicktimes encoded with up to 20 different codecs."
No, but it should work with various flavors of Quicktime codecs in the same timeline. And yes, we should expect this since they are handing off more work to the GPU so you have both processor and graphics card working together on this.
[David Battistella] "
Oh and throw the old alpha channel in there too while you are at it."
Why not? CineWave was doing this two years ago. Mixed codecs in the same timeline which included real-time Alpha channel support for Quicktime Movies. Made it a dream to work with stuff from After Effects which was rendered Lossless + Alpha.
Oh and let's not forget real-time Chroma Key as well. As in REAL real-time Chroma Key, as in Edit to Tape without rendering Chroma Key. How many folks out there wouldn't mind having this feature today? We did this two years ago.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
"The Rough Cut," an original short film premiering December 7th in full High Definition in Atlanta.
rsvp@biscardicreative.com to reserve seats.
http://www.theroughcutmovie.com
Now editing "Good Eats" in HD for the Food Network
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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• | | | |  | Re: Apple acknowledges 720p capture bug (subclips) in FCP 5
by Joe Murray on Dec 9, 2005 at 3:01:35 am |
I know some people get all hyped about more RT with various formats, alpha channels, etc. but if it's going to look as bad as FCP's RT looks right now, and still have to render to see what its' really going to look like, then I'd end up rendering in smaller chunks anyway. I never got to see a Cinewave in action...did it's multiformat RT look decent?
Joe Murray
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• | | | | | Re: Apple acknowledges 720p capture bug (subclips) in FCP 5
by Walter Biscardi on Dec 9, 2005 at 3:14:13 am |
[Joe Murray] "I know some people get all hyped about more RT with various formats, alpha channels, etc. but if it's going to look as bad as FCP's RT looks right now,"
FCP uses "Dynamic RT" which essentially means we'll drop the image quality so you can keep working with more effects in real-time. It's a trade-off and not an entirely bad one depending on your workflow. I really don't find it to be a problem.
CineWave's RT was final quality RT. Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
"The Rough Cut," an original short film premiering December 7th in full High Definition in Atlanta.
rsvp@biscardicreative.com to reserve seats.
http://www.theroughcutmovie.com
Now editing "Good Eats" in HD for the Food Network
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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• | | | | | Re: Apple acknowledges 720p capture bug (subclips) in FCP 5
by todd sali on Dec 8, 2005 at 9:29:52 pm |
ditto here.
this is my main request. i source all kinds of media and RT kind of goes out the window.
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• | | | | | Re: Apple acknowledges 720p capture bug (subclips) in FCP 5
by Walter Biscardi on Dec 8, 2005 at 1:43:28 pm |
[David Battistella] "
This is a hardware driven solution and it means that somewhere along the line something suffers. Why not just capture everything to the same codec."
Not so with the old CineWave system I owned. In the case of the 40th Anniversary of Lamborghini project we did two years ago, we had over 25 hours of DVCAM footage to condense down to a 90 minute feature and 2 hours of bonus material. I simply captured the entire project in DV, but edited in an 8bit Uncompressed timeline, in real-time, for all graphics and color correction.
Would have been a waste of drive space to capture everything 8bit Uncompressed since I'm not going to magically get more image quality from the DV. The image quality off the CineWave was outstanding.
So yes, Mixed formats in the same timeline is a huge feature that's greatly lacking from any FCP solution today. It's sorely needed in my workflow today as I get mixed formats even in HD. Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
"The Rough Cut," an original short film premiering December 7th in full High Definition in Atlanta.
rsvp@biscardicreative.com to reserve seats.
http://www.theroughcutmovie.com
Now editing "Good Eats" in HD for the Food Network
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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• | | | | | Re: Apple acknowledges 720p capture bug (subclips) in FCP 5
by David Battistella on Dec 8, 2005 at 1:52:13 pm |
Ok Walt.
I hear you, but here is the deal. I own a Piep Studio as well and this is what is true for that product. When I cut anything in a DV timeline and then shoot it out to tape, the signal going to tape is a 10-bit uncopresed signal, I am sure that is how the KONA works as well. FCP hands the file to the capture board, anything going out the board has a minimum quality to it.
If I use the KONA 2 8 bit preset for DV then it's 8 bit that is going to tape ( D-beta or beta) not DV. That DV signal is being encoded by the card to get to tape.
David
| | | | |
• | | | | | Re: Apple acknowledges 720p capture bug (subclips) in FCP 5
by Walter Biscardi on Dec 8, 2005 at 2:02:50 pm |
[David Battistella] "When I cut anything in a DV timeline and then shoot it out to tape, the signal going to tape is a 10-bit uncopresed signal, I am sure that is how the KONA works as well."
No, if you're editing in a DV timeline, you're adding all that wonderful DV compression to your titles and graphics. So there's no difference in the quality of your final product whether you master to DV or to DigiBeta. So that's not what I'm talking about and yes, you can do that right now with the Kona 2, edit in a DV timeline, but play out to tape in realtime.
I'm talking about editing DV footage in an uncompressed timeline and doing all of this in real-time, not rendering. By cutting in an Uncompressed timeline, you keep your titles, graphics and even color correction cleaner. This is what I could do two years ago on CineWave and it's what is greatly missing today in the FCP lineup.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
"The Rough Cut," an original short film premiering December 7th in full High Definition in Atlanta.
rsvp@biscardicreative.com to reserve seats.
http://www.theroughcutmovie.com
Now editing "Good Eats" in HD for the Food Network
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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• | | | | | Re: Apple acknowledges 720p capture bug (subclips) in FCP 5
by David Battistella on Dec 8, 2005 at 2:29:23 pm |
Walter,
Was Cinewave doing this as a hardware based solution with proprietary codecs? Could you do all of this with the Apple codec. I am not a former Cinewaver and I have never seen this up close.
It sounds like CInewave got caught in the "Apple RT engine" release of FCP. Cards with daughtercard processing like the Aurora Igniter, which was doing 24frame editing, RT color correction, RT downstream keying, and a short list of FX support by the card (remember the ICE borad) This all became redundant with Apple's new plans for FCP with RT. (great for the DV user which makes up about 80% of FCP's user base.
Even with the RT engine I am not sure that we are that close to seeing this kind of thing in RT in FCP soon because Apple has made it difficult to plan for non Apple based processing.
That said, I forgot to mention I'd like to see an improved titling interface in the next release. :)
Glad to know it went well last night. Would love to see it on the circuit.
David
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• | | | | | Re: Apple acknowledges 720p capture bug (subclips) in FCP 5
by Walter Biscardi on Dec 8, 2005 at 2:34:45 pm |
[David Battistella] "Was Cinewave doing this as a hardware based solution with proprietary codecs? Could you do all of this with the Apple codec. I am not a former Cinewaver and I have never seen this up close."
All standard Apple codecs, no proprietary codecs except their own SD codecs if you wanted to use them, but you could use the standard Apple 8 and 10 bit codecs. DV, Lossless+alpha, etc..., all the same as you have on your FCP systems today.
[David Battistella] "It sounds like CInewave got caught in the "Apple RT engine" release of FCP."
Actually, Pinnacle helped Apple with the RT Engine and took advantage of the RT Engine taking on some processing and that allowed the CineWave processor to take on the mixing of the codecs. Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
"The Rough Cut," an original short film premiering December 7th in full High Definition in Atlanta.
rsvp@biscardicreative.com to reserve seats.
http://www.theroughcutmovie.com
Now editing "Good Eats" in HD for the Food Network
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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• | | | | | Re: Apple acknowledges 720p capture bug (subclips) in FCP 5
by David Battistella on Dec 8, 2005 at 9:53:18 pm |
Walter,
Not going to argue with you ont he rendering issue with DV. Obviously, we all want to get out of the 4:1:1 space for rendering and GFX and titles etc.
So the way I am understanding this is this way.
1. You drop any DV clip into a 8 bit timeline on a cinewave system and it is realtime in that sequence.
2. You are now operating in the 8 bit UC colorspace so the DV is not going to loose anything.
3. You add a Title or RT FX and it is 8bit UC
4. You render the sequence and it is 8 Bit UC
5. Cinewave did not have a hardware proprietary way of doing this?
Why does this not just exist in FCP now then? It had to be a hardware only solution requiring on-board daughtercard processing. I am not saying this would not be a nice feature, but is it really likely?
David
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• | | | | | Re: Apple acknowledges 720p capture bug (subclips) in FCP 5
by Walter Biscardi on Dec 8, 2005 at 10:36:31 pm |
[David Battistella] "5. Cinewave did not have a hardware proprietary way of doing this?"
Yes CineWave did have a hardware proprietary way of doing this, it was a processor on the CineWave card. Kind of like how Motion uses the Graphics card to run intensive operations.
[David Battistella] "I am not saying this would not be a nice feature, but is it really likely?"
If FCP wants to remain a viable competitor to AVID, yes it better be likely. Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
"The Rough Cut," an original short film premiering December 7th in full High Definition in Atlanta.
rsvp@biscardicreative.com to reserve seats.
http://www.theroughcutmovie.com
Now editing "Good Eats" in HD for the Food Network
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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• | | | | | Re: Apple acknowledges 720p capture bug (subclips) in FCP 5
by Joe Murray on Dec 9, 2005 at 3:05:54 am |
Are Avid's resolution independent now? Or do you still have to import footage/stills into the project as Avid media files? I know they can do different compressions realtime in the same timeline; how about stills with alphas?
Joe Murray
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• | | | |  | Re: Apple acknowledges 720p capture bug (subclips) in FCP 5
by Oliver Peters on Dec 9, 2005 at 2:00:41 pm |
>>Are Avid's resolution independent now<<
Avids are not res-ind, but you can use the Pan & Zoom plug-in to work with higher-res stills on the TL. You can drop in RT stills with alphas if they match the TL resolution. You have "dynamic" RT to mix Avid codecs and DVCPRO 50/100 codecs as well as RT mix/up/down conversion on the TL (preview) of SD/HD on some of the software based systems. Symphony Nitris (hardware) does this at true broadcast quality without rendering. For what it's worth, Axio also does this at a lower price point under Premiere Pro.
Sincerely,
Oliver Oliver Peters
Post-Production & Interactive Media
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com
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• | | | |  | Re: Apple acknowledges 720p capture bug (subclips) in FCP 5
by JeremyG on Dec 7, 2005 at 4:06:02 pm |
You know, at least this means they are listening (I'm remaining optimistic here). Glad to know that Apple, with it's gaining popularity, is not a huge Ivory Tower.....yet. It seems that if they are aware and also acknowledge this problem, they might be fixing it (again, I'm trying to remain optimistic).
What about the end where they are talking about removing the subclip limits? I can't try it myself today as the 1200s gone. It seems they want you to drag your clips into a new bin, batch redig, and then remove the subclip limits. They recommend doing this if you need to batch capture stuff that is already edited into a timeline. Not a perfect solution but a solution none the less. Better than reediting the whole piece when it's time to go uncompressed.
Jeremy
-----------
G5 Dual 2Ghz <> 4GB RAM <> FCP 5.02 <> Kona 2
ATTO 42XS <> Huge Systems 4105 Fibre
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• | | | | | OUR SOLVE-Re: Apple acknowledges 720p capture bug
by Joe B. on Dec 11, 2005 at 4:05:13 am |
Came across this issue with a friend's session who had only 40 master clips and an existing 2 minute timeline (edit) in progress.
It worked! And got him through this crazy bug that even Apple Pro Support couldn't help solve.
Although this may not work for everyone's situation, it helped us solve our problem and can hopefully help others that are in a similar situation.
Here's what we did:
1) Took down/screen captured the bin info that contained all the master clips' names and timecodes ("Media Start" column).
2) Opened the clips in Quicktime (at the finder level) and deleted the timecode track.
3) Reconnected the clips in FCPro (eventhough the timecode was then reset to 00:00:00:00).
4) Modified/Reset the starting timecode of each master clip back to the original timecode (based on the info from step1).
I hope this helps others the way it helped us.
Good luck,
Joe E. Botana
[ e d i t o r ]
THE BUTCHER SHOP
http://zbutcher.com
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