| How many HD streams on FCP 5?
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 | How many HD streams on FCP 5?
by david garcia on Nov 20, 2005 at 5:25:46 pm |
I hope this is an OK question for this forum. It seems like there's alot of people with practical knowledge here.
So I'm talking to guy who configures Final Cut systems a NAB post+ trying to get a handle on which Hard drive array my company should buy. I'm looking at the lacie S2S.
I ask him How many streams of DVCPRO HD I can get out of a raid that's clocking 180MB/s. (lacie's claimed speed)
He tells me that due to a limitation in the quicktime codec you can only get one maybe two DVCPRO HD streams at a time. He says that this is an apple software limitation.
I just can't believe this. Is it true?
Our setup will be something like: Quad G5, 8gigs RAM, Lacie S2S (1.25 TB), KONA LHE or KONA 2E (if it's out soon) editing primarily 720p or 1080i.
Will I really only be able to handle two streams tops with this. I'm wondering if he was saying it would go into proxy mode or something with dynamic RT.
I thought FCP was DVCPRO friendly.
I'd appreciate input from someone who's already cutting HD on Final Cut.
Thanks muchly,
David Garcia
albuquerque, NM
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• | | | |  | Re: How many HD streams on FCP 5?
by Fred Connors Jr. on Nov 20, 2005 at 5:56:57 pm |
David
If I understand your question correctly, it is not true.
We are getting 6+ streams of DVCProHD 24p.
You should be able to do the 2+ streams with the LaCie S2S.
The "guy" may have been confused and was thinking about Uncompressed HD. If this was the case, the LaCei will not do a single stream of HD uncompressed.
Fred
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• | | | | | Re: How many HD streams on FCP 5?
by david garcia on Nov 20, 2005 at 6:13:11 pm |
Thanks Fred,
I really appreciate the response. What kind of array are you using? And what is the minimum bandwith for 1 stream uncompressed, out of curiosity. We will be doing DVCPROHD, but for edification's sake I'm curious.
If we up to the 2.5 LaCie do we get up to 4+ streams or do we have to go Fibre Channel or SCSI for that.
By the way, I didn't name the "guy's" company because they are a pretty big outfit in New York and I don't want to unduly cast aspersions if I just misunderstood him (which I kind of figure I did.) I will say the sales rep from LaCie told me his drive would do 10 streams of DVCPROHD but he may have been selling sofas last week for all I know.
Thanks again,
David
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• | | | |  | Re: How many HD streams on FCP 5?
by Fred Connors Jr on Nov 21, 2005 at 3:14:33 pm |
David
You are getting great feedback from some of the best "guys" arround.
Now just to throw a monkey into the wrench...
Inorder to use a new Quad Core G5, you will have to wait for AJA to release a KONA-2e, PCI Express KONA2.
When that happens, you will also need a PCIe HBA, Host Bus Adapter.
Also, most current Serial ATA RAIDS offer no data protection at all. And they are have very flimsy serial ATA connections to each enclosure/drive. (See other comments)
You may want to consider a pair of Highpoint RocketRAID 2224 cards. They use a special "Infiniband" connector that is much better for external devices.
http://www.highpoint-tech.com/USA/rr2224.htm
And a pair of Highpoint X4 Raid enclosures, also "Infiniband", that have controllers with RAID5 protection built in. Then populate the X4s with four 500GB drives each. Create a RAID 5 on each X4 and then software stripe the two into a RAID0.
http://www.highpoint-tech.com/USA/x4.htm
Yes they are limited to 4 drives per enclosure, but for under $5,000.00 you can have 3 TB of Raid5 storage with 300MBps+ performance and RAID5 security.
Fred
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• | | | |  | Re: How many HD streams on FCP 5?
by gary adcock on Nov 21, 2005 at 3:53:09 pm |
[Fred Connors Jr] "norder to use a new Quad Core G5, you will have to wait for AJA to release a KONA-2e, PCI Express KONA2."
The Kona LH-e is shipping today and is currently the only PCIe card shipping for capture in FCP for the new Mac's.
[Fred Connors Jr] "Also, most current Serial ATA RAIDS offer no data protection at all. And they are have very flimsy serial ATA connections to each enclosure/drive."
The S2S array from lacie can be set to run in raid 5 and the cable from my machine to the array is no more
"flimsy" than a FW or SCSI cable is.
Gary Adcock
Studio37
HD and Film Consultation
Chicago, IL USA
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• | | | | | Re: How many HD streams on FCP 5?
by Francois X on Nov 21, 2005 at 7:11:49 pm |
[Fred Connors Jr] "you will also need a PCIe HBA, Host Bus Adapter"
Fred, what is that ? the sata array adapter ?
Documentary Director & Editor
Paris /France
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• | | | | | Re: How many HD streams on FCP 5?
by Fred Connors Jr on Nov 21, 2005 at 10:06:17 pm |
Yes Francois X
It is the card(s) you install into you computer (host) the connect to external or additional Serial ATA disk drives.
Fred
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• | | | | | Re: How many HD streams on FCP 5?
by gary adcock on Nov 20, 2005 at 7:37:43 pm |
[david garcia] "I ask him How many streams of DVCPRO HD I can get out of a raid that's clocking 180MB/s. (lacie's claimed speed) "
David,
720p24 on an 2.5 Dual and an S2S array I get about the same performance with as I do over 320 SCSI, but not as much as I get over a real fibre connection, but for a single user well worth the price difference. (that would be 6 layers on screen with scaling)
1080i60 / 720p60 you should get about 4 (2.5 times as much data means less real time)
I do not know if it was me you were talking to, but a single SATA drive will only do about 2 streams, a array like the S2S has multiple disks and therefore you get better performance.
gary
Gary Adcock
Studio37
HD and Film Consultation
Chicago, IL USA
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• | | | | | Re: How many HD streams on FCP 5?
by david garcia on Nov 20, 2005 at 8:34:20 pm |
Hey Gary,
No it was not you I was talking to, but we did take your seminar on the Digital Facility Workflows. Very informative. Thank you.
Does it matter whether we go with the 1.25 gig S2S or the 2.5? I would consider 6 streams to be a minimum. And we'd love to be able to do one stream uncompressed for greenscreens and effects.
I just noticed that PROMAX has an array that looks like two four drive housings together (8 drives) that clocks around 400 MB/s with 2TB for about the same price as the big S2S.
What do think.
Once again I want to thank you guys profusely for the advice.
David
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• | | | |  | Re: How many HD streams on FCP 5?
by TJ Shank on Nov 21, 2005 at 3:54:02 am |
Hi David,
I have the smaller S2S and get 4-5 streams of DVCPro HD. According to the literature, the larger array runs at just about the same speed as the smaller one. For what it's worth, 2 small S2S raided together clock in excess of 400 mB/sec.
tjs
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• | | | |  | Re: How many HD streams on FCP 5?
by Bob Zelin on Nov 21, 2005 at 1:10:34 pm |
Hi David,
I will describe the ProMax array again, as I have done in a post just a few ones from this one down. The ProMax is an excellent array - the products used are the Sonnet Tempo X eSATA 8 port card, with 2 Kano Technologies SATA enclosures and 8 Hitachi SATA drives. ProMax is a great company to deal with, but these are generic products that can be purchased from many sources - probably including your "experts" in NY. There is no software or drivers to install. This array (which we have discussed on this forum many times) CAN do uncompressed HD, but some people (including me) are nervous about the stability of 8 port SATA I configurations. It does work however. I use SATA drives on almost every installation, but also recommend Fibre or SCSI for uncompressed HD.
As far as your "well established firm in NY" - many of these guys have NO IDEA of what they are talking about, and give out incorrect information. Even I give out wrong info, when I am told incorrect info from a manufacturer (I have been guilty of this on this very forum). Forums like this are great, becuase you can get feedback from real life users that have suffered thru the problems, and can relate their experience.
You can do what you want, but given a choice between the ProMax and Lacie, I would personally choose the ProMax array you have seen.
Bob Zelin
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• | | | | | Re: How many HD streams on FCP 5?
by gary adcock on Nov 21, 2005 at 4:00:05 pm |
[david garcia] "Does it matter whether we go with the 1.25 gig S2S or the 2.5? I would consider 6 streams to be a minimum. And we'd love to be able to do one stream uncompressed for greenscreens and effects. "
Bigger storage will last longer. But are you really talking about needing to have 6 live streams of video
on the screen at all times? thats one very busy piece of video.
Notice also that not once has someone mentioned that the compression / decompression load is really the issue, even with the frame scaling being handled by a kona card the CPU still is handling the file compression and that is what is limiting the number of layers to about 6 in DVCPROHD
I have hit 8 layers on a 4G fibre array on 720p24 8bit.
Gary Adcock
Studio37
HD and Film Consultation
Chicago, IL USA
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• | | | | | Re: How many HD streams on FCP 5?
by Gary Taylor on Nov 21, 2005 at 6:42:07 pm |
Hi Gary,
I don't know if you have more than one S2S but can you think of anything that would prevent you from software striping two units together? Have you tried this? I have a crazy idea of maybe setting up a RAID5 between 3 or 4 units.
Gary
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• | | | | | Re: How many HD streams on FCP 5?
by gary adcock on Nov 21, 2005 at 9:33:35 pm |
[Gary Taylor] "I don't know if you have more than one S2S but can you think of anything that would prevent you from software striping two units together?"
I have not tried this yet, but the 3 things that I think of that may be problematic would be
1) there is only one SATA connection on the S2S - and that goes to the HBA
2) multiple S2S;s on one HBA may actually decrease the bandwidth.
3) adding extra HBA's to one machine could possibly not allow the use of your capture card.
Gary Adcock
Studio37
HD and Film Consultation
Chicago, IL USA
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• | | | | | Re: How many HD streams on FCP 5?
by jordanwwoods on Nov 21, 2005 at 10:55:06 pm |
I am still hacking away at that experimental raiding--- was able to software raid multiple 8bay sata configurations, but the raid5 has not stood up to the test, it fails on writing--- only prebuilt drive systems like xserve raid has been capable(hardware raided though)
and yes, the HBA thingy is a major pain... how many cables do you like streaming out of the back of the computer?
-but our custom 8bay raid(0) systems rock out on uncompressed HD without problems, clocking 340mb/s sustained speeds
i'd love to know if Highpoint gets it together and their raid5 actually works with this new pciE deal...
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• | | | | | Re: How many HD streams on FCP 5?
by Gary Taylor on Nov 21, 2005 at 11:43:09 pm |
Hi Jordan,
Thanks for your input. Yours appears to be the sort of the cautionary tale that I was looking for.
Are your external RAID 0 being done in software or hardware. I am just wondering if you are doing RAID 0 in software and then doing the RAID 5 in software as well? One of the interesting things for me about the S2S is its ability to do RAID 0 in hardware, albeit with the loss of a drive's capacity.
I am in full agreement about excessive numbers of cables. Moving forward I like the use of infiniband like that used in HighPoint 2240. I just need to them to release it in PCIe version.
On the issue of software RAID I am not suprised there Mac users are finding the problems with RAID that they are. I think most of our options would be considered mid-level at best on the PC. I would be interested in knowing what your CPU utilization is on your system with that monster RAID you have there.
I really wish someone would come out with a SATA RAID card with a dedicated XOR processor like the ARECA, or 3Ware units available on the PC. For video applications where real time is based on CPU doing all those caculation in software has to cost you something.
Gary
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• | | | | | Re: How many HD streams on FCP 5?
by Gary Taylor on Nov 21, 2005 at 11:15:08 pm |
Hi Gary,
Have you been about to capture uncompressed 8 or 10 bit HD with the S2S? I know that Lacie implies that it could be used for HD capture? Thanks for the other warnings.
Gary
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• | | | | | Re: How many HD streams on FCP 5?
by gary adcock on Nov 22, 2005 at 2:25:53 am |
[Gary Taylor] "Have you been about to capture uncompressed 8 or 10 bit HD with the S2S? I know that Lacie implies that it could be used for HD capture? "
Easily,
1080p24 10bit captures were kept short just in case (less than 5 minutes each) and 720p24 10bit was a breeze, I was able to capture 30 minutes without a single blip in my testing to date.
Secondly the only issue I had on then install was the fact I had the machine set up for SCSI capture, and it took more than a couple
of try's to get it working do to the incompatibility of the existing Atto Drivers conflicting with the SATA drivers needed for the S2S.
Gary Adcock
Studio37
HD and Film Consultation
Chicago, IL USA
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• | | | | | Re: How many HD streams on FCP 5?
by Gary Taylor on Nov 23, 2005 at 12:59:23 am |
Hi Gary,
Thanks again for your response. I just had a very frustrating couple of hours on the phone with Lacie tech support with no luck so I was hoping you could help me out. Is there a chance you might be able to do a longer test of 1080p or 1080i? Have you limited your captures to 5 minutes because of some earlier problem?
Have you been able to test the S2S's Safe mode for speed using the Kona test suite? In particular I am trying to find out what its write speed is?
Thanks again,
Gary
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