Importing HVX200/P2 footage shot at 1080i60
by Dave Viner
on
Jul 1, 2008 at 7:20:53 pm
It appears that FCP 6.0.3 has a bug in the log and transfer for P2 media when the footage is shot in 1080i60 on an HVX200. After log&transfer, the resulting render files are marked as 1080p30.
However, in the HVX200, 1080i is actually 24 fps extended over 60 fields by using a 2:3 pulldown. As a result, the clips imported via Log&Transfer have a 2:3 pulldown in them.
But, since L&T has marked the clips as 1080p30, Cinema Tools will not run a reverse telecine on the clips.
If anyone else has seen this, I'd love to hear what workarounds you've discovered. I'm working on a few possible options, but it'd be great to hear someone who's already made it through the whole process.
Re: Importing HVX200/P2 footage shot at 1080i60 by Shane Ross on Jul 1, 2008 at 8:00:40 pm
What did you shoot? 1080i60 at 24PA? Or 1080i60 at 30? The term 1080i60 means 60 interlaced FIELDS, not frames. The camera cannot shoot 60fps at 1080...it can only do that at 720p. If you shot 1080i60 then your footage should be 30 fps, or 29.97 to be exact.
What was the frame rate set to in the camera? 30P? 24PA? If 24PA, then there is a REMOVE PULLDOWN option in the Log and Transfer preferences that should automatically remove the redundant frames.
Re: Importing HVX200/P2 footage shot at 1080i60 by Dave Viner on Jul 1, 2008 at 8:15:39 pm
Hi Shane,
The footage was shot at 1080i/24p. Here's what it says in the manual (on pg 37):
"24P mode:
Shoot 24 frames a second in the progressive mode.
For output and recording, the 24-frame-per-second signal is converted to 60-field-per-second interlace using the widely used "2:3" ratio. THis gives you images similar to a movie shot with film."
Shooting 1080i 24pA definitely allows one to use the REMOVE ADVANCED PULLDOWN feature on log and transfer. But, the advanced pulldown removal requires the true advanced pulldown pattern 2:3:3:2, not the "traditional" 2:3 pulldown which is added by the 1080i/24p.
Re: Importing HVX200/P2 footage shot at 1080i60 by Shane Ross on Jul 1, 2008 at 9:37:33 pm
Shooting 1080i 24p means that your footage will be 29.97 with no pulldown. Why would there be a problem? Only if you accidentally shot this format with the intent of actually getting 23.98fps...then there would be a problem.
Re: Importing HVX200/P2 footage shot at 1080i60 by Dave Viner on Jul 1, 2008 at 9:47:47 pm
Hi Shane,
The footage was shot at 1080i/24p. As referenced in the Panasonic HVX200 manual, this means that there are 60 fields spread over 24 fps using a 2:3 pulldown.
The problem seems to be that FCP imports the footage as 1080p30, but doesn't recognize that the pulldown is still there. As a result, no other programs will run a reverse telecine on the file to remove the 3:2 pulldown.
Re: Importing HVX200/P2 footage shot at 1080i60 by Shane Ross on Jul 1, 2008 at 11:17:57 pm
If you wanted to remove the pulldown, you need to shoot 1080i 24PA. If you want to use the footage as 24p at 29.97, you shoot 1080i 24P. The manual is right in how it records the 24p onto tape, but 24p wasn't intended to be removed via reverse telecine, while 24PA was.
Re: Importing HVX200/P2 footage shot at 1080i60 by Dave Viner on Jul 2, 2008 at 12:00:38 am
Hi Shane,
I agree that the footage SHOULD have been shot at 1080/24pA or 720/24p or 720/24pN. However, the footage WAS shot at 1080i60/24p. So, what I think should have happened has little bearing on my current situation. (Although, trust me when I say that I have strongly advised the production team to use the proper settings in the future.)
I have found 3 separate workarounds for the problem, which I will post in detail in a separate posting. I have also logged this as a bug with Apple, since log and transfer SHOULD handle this case properly, or at least offer me an option to remove the pulldown programmatically.
Re: Importing HVX200/P2 footage shot at 1080i60 by Dave Viner on Jul 2, 2008 at 12:37:06 am
Here's a wrapup of several days of investigation into this problem. (Yes, I've been working on it long before I posted here, but only in the past 1.5 days have any solutions presented themselves.) I hope that this post will help others out there who end up in this same situation. I have pulled out enough hair over this one - no one else should have to lose their hair.
Just to reiterate, here is my situation:
Footage shot on an HVX200 at 1080i60/24p.
Final Cut Studio 2, Final Cut Pro 6.0.3
Mac OS 10.5.2
QuickTime Player 7.4.5
Here's the problem:
Log and Transfer P2 media into the FCP project results in captured files that are 1080p30. However, the captured files have a 2:3 pulldown added. But, I need to get the clips to be truly progressive before editing.
Notes:
- This is NOT applicable if one shoots with Advanced Pulldown (24pA).
- Kudos to Philip Hodgetts at Intelligent Assistance for help in debugging this problem.
WORKAROUNDS:
OPTION 1. Rollback to an earlier version of FCP
It appears that Final Cut Pro 6.0.2 handles the video properly. I am not able to rollback for other reasons, but Philip Hodgetts tried it and said it worked.
OPTION 2. Use MXF4MAC.
MXF4Mac is a cool little component that allows your Mac to interact with MXF files directly through QuickTime. You can read more about it at http://mxf4mac.com/.
Cost: License for MXF4Mac - which is 399 Euros (roughly 630 USD today).
Operating System: Mac only
Steps to make it work:
1. Install MXF4Mac on machine
2. Start FCP and create a new project.
2. Drag-n-drop all MXF files into FCP project. Note that you'll need both the Audio and the Video directories. (CONTENTS/Video/*.MXF and CONTENT/Audio/*.MXF).
3. Save project.
4. Select any of the video MXF clips. Select the reverse telecine option (Tools > Cinema Tools Reverse Telecine)
This should run Cinema Tools' reverse telecine over the clips. The resulting clips will have a lower data rate, the same codec, and the proper frame rate. In my case, the codec is DVCPRO HD 1080i60. The frame rate is 23.98 (whereas the original MXF had 29.97 fps). The data rate is 11.1 MB/sec (whereas the original MXF had 13.7 MB/sec).
Once the reverse telecine process is done, then you edit as you would normally.
Cost: License for MXFX - which is $195
Operating System: Mac or Windows
Steps to make it work.
0. Install MXFX.
1. Open MXFX.
2. Drag one or more MXF video files into the MXFX window.
3. Click Options
3a. Select "Remove pulldown"
3b. Set 23.976 target fps
3c. Assume 3:2 pulldown
3d. Reset the destination directory to a new, empty directory.
4. Click Start
5. Quit MXFX
6. Start FCP and create a new Project.
7. Log and transfer the modified P2 data into FCP project.
8. edit as normal using the sequence settings appropriate for the clips (DVCPRO HD 1080i60, timebase 23.98, 1280x1080).
The window of MXFX in my case read:
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Adding file from /Users/60feditor/Documents/viner-log_and_xfer_test/Tape 1 copy 2/CONTENTS/VIDEO/0002GP in queue
DVFilmMaker also can remove the 2:3 pulldown in this case. It is available at http://www.dvfilm.com/maker/index.htm. The trick here is that you need to run a separate script after the conversion is done to cleanup some mess left by DVFilmMaker.
Cost: DVFilmMaker software - $145
Operating System: Windows or Mac
Steps to operate:
0. Install DVFilmMaker
1. Open FCP, create a new project.
2. Log and Transfer the P2 footage into FCP.
3. Quit FCP
4. Run DVFilmMaker in batch mode over all the QuickTime clips (output by Log and Transfer).
4. Run applescript program which does the following:
4a. identify the captured quicktime files (output by Log and Transfer)
4b. foreach qt file, reset the size to 1920x1080, save to new location.
5. Open FCP project
6. Import the revised qt files into the project.
The resulting QT clips should work properly in the FCP project. One note here. The resuling quicktime files have only 1 audio channel, whereas all other options have the original 4 channels of audio.
I hope this helps those struggling with the same problem.
I gotta remember to look at all these options. Glad that Phil had your back. That is why you need to post...get more people giving input. Although no one else did here.
Re: Importing HVX200/P2 footage shot at 1080i60 by Dave Viner on Jul 2, 2008 at 3:54:39 pm
Hi Shane,
Thanks for the suggestion of MXFImport from Calibrated Software. I haven't tested the demo yet, but the screenshot of the preferences panel at http://www.calibratedsoftware.com/OSX-MXFPrefs.jpg doesn't look promising in my situation. The 1080i option appears to only support the Advanced Pulldown, and doesn't offer an option for the 2:3 pulldown which my footage has.
But, I'll give the demo a shot once I have a few extra minutes.
Re: Importing HVX200/P2 footage shot at 1080i60 by Shane Ross on Jul 2, 2008 at 12:53:26 am
[Dave Viner]"So, what I think should have happened has little bearing on my current situation."
OK...sorry. You are right. I'll stop that now.
[Dave Viner]"I have found 3 separate workarounds for the problem, which I will post in detail in a separate posting."
Cool. Because I was about to suggest that you can use Compressor to remove the pulldown...or test it at least. But I was distracted by work...managing 6 projects today...ugh.
[Dave Viner]"I have also logged this as a bug with Apple, since log and transfer SHOULD handle this case properly, or at least offer me an option to remove the pulldown programmatically."
I don't think this is a bug...because it was shot in a specific way, a way that was meant to have the film look, yet still be 29.97. Pulldown was not intended to be removed so FCP didn't remove it. It is a different kind of pulldown.
Re: Importing HVX200/P2 footage shot at 1080i60 by Shane Ross on Jul 18, 2008 at 4:50:45 pm
[Katrina Mann]"
But if I step through frame by frame in the viewer it goes all the way up to 30."
Look VERY carefully at the timecode numbers. A few will be missing, because the footage was still recorded at 30fps, but FCP imports the footage at 24fps removing a few redundant frames.
Re: Importing HVX200/P2 footage shot at 1080i60 by Dave Viner on Jul 18, 2008 at 4:54:06 pm
Hi Katrina,
It sounds like there may be 2 different issues at work. First, if you shot at 1080i 24pA, then used the "REMOVE ADVANCED PULLDOWN" option when log&transfering the footage into FCP, the imported clips should have 23.98 fps. It sounds like this is what is actually happening. If that's the case, then you most likely have true progressive footage at 24 fps (well, 23.98).
If you open one of these in the viewer, you should see only progressive frames.
If you take one of those clips and drop it in a timeline, then the output will be dependent on the settings of the sequence and the export settings. I would guess that you've probably put a 23.98fps clip onto a sequence that is set to play at 29.97fps. If so, just reset the sequence settings to be 23.98 (or delete the sequence and make a new one at 23.98).
Re: Importing HVX200/P2 footage shot at 1080i60 by Katrina Mann on Jul 19, 2008 at 6:26:59 pm
Thanks Dave,
Glad to hear my import process is correct.
I am putting my clips on a 23.98 timeline, I just got nervous when I saw the frames going up to 30 in the viewer. But Shane pointed out that it's removing frames on the way to 30, which I hadn't noticed, so I'm all good.
Another Workaround within FCP by Damon Hoydysh on Jul 30, 2008 at 6:42:53 pm
We also have had the same problem. Here's yet another workaround, which doesn't cost you anything, and only requires the toolset that you currently have - FCP.
Workaround within FCP:
-Export your clips as FCP clips with DVCproHD 1080/60i. Use batch export to make life easier if you've got a lot of clips. The newly exported clips will have the correct 'compressor' setting, and you shouldn't experience any loss of quality since you're working in the same codec.
I spoke with Apple about the problem - they are now aware of the issue - and claim that they are working to fix it ASAP.
