FCP destoyed my original footage.
by Ed Sully
on
Jun 27, 2008 at 10:37:51 pm
After getting my footage back from telecine, i spent a few days breaking it up and decided to apply 16:9 letter box effect to get a better idea of what i had to work with. After having moved around the frame for a few shots i chose to go with slugs instead, so i selected all my footage, right clicked, and "removed attribute:filter". I got to a certain point and found that the letter boxing effect was still applied, perplexed i checked for slugs hidden in the timeline but found none, then i checked the filters, still nothing. I opened the original footage outside of FCP and found to my horror that indeed the letterboxing effect had been permanently applied to one of four rolls. I tried opening old saves before the effect had been applied and this did nothing, so indeed FCP has screwed me complete. Has this happened to anyone else? Do i have any legal recourse against apple?
Re: FCP destoyed my original footage. by Shane Ross on Jun 27, 2008 at 11:58:46 pm
FCP cannot modify master clips in this way. FCP works with media in "non-destructive" ways, meaning that all the changes to clips occur within the program...the original files are untouched. Add filters, subclip, razor...all of that...doesn't effect the source footage in the slightest
Are you sure the reel didn't look like that in the first place? Due to some pilot error somewhere down the line? Is this the ONLY copy of the footage you have? Does the Telecine house have a copy of the footage that you might compare?
Re: FCP destoyed my original footage. by Ed Sully on Jun 28, 2008 at 1:57:10 am
Thats exactly what an editor in hollywood i talked to said, as well as an editor that works with me. Were all perplexed at how this could have happened but i am 100% certain that the footage did not originally have blackbars because i directed it and was there in the telecine house when they were doing color correction on the davinci system. I can also tell it was the work of FCP because i noticed that there was a certain fuzzyness to the edges of the "widescreen" effect bars, whereas using slugs gave a sharper edge.
Of course hindsight is 20/20 and i should have made a copy, but i have not seen the likes of this on any other NLE for the 10 years i have been working on them, so i never saw a reason to do a backup. I do have the original film, but i highly doubt that telecine kept a digital copy.
Re: FCP destoyed my original footage. by Dean Sensui on Jun 28, 2008 at 12:21:22 pm
[Ed Sully]"Of course hindsight is 20/20 and i should have made a copy, but i have not seen the likes of this on any other NLE for the 10 years i have been working on them, so i never saw a reason to do a backup."
There's no excuse for not having a backup. Just like there's no excuse for not wearing a seatbelt, not installing a smoke detector or not wearing a helmet while cycling.
I've owned a boat for more than 20 years. Never had a problem. Yet I always wear an inflatable personal floatation device along with a GPS-integrated personal locator beacon. On my belt is a waterproof cell phone and a knife. It only takes one bad incident to ruin your day, and without the right gear, it could end up being your last.
Backups allow you to recover from the unexpected. If you've been working with NLE's for 10 years (I've been doing this for 11 years on Media 100 and FCP), then backups should have been a standard operating procedure. Even if you avoid overwriting the files, there's still the possibility of the drive crashing for any number of reasons.
My mantra is: it's better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.
Be thankful you have your original film footage to fall back to. In that sense, it's your backup. Just less convenient and more expensive than having a copy on another hard drive.
Re: FCP destoyed my original footage. by Phil Balsdon on Jun 29, 2008 at 12:40:58 am
I can also tell it was the work of FCP because i noticed that there was a certain fuzzyness to the edges of the "widescreen" effect bars, whereas using slugs gave a sharper edge.
Would this not imply it was not the work of FCP. Where did FCP find some fuzzy edged widescreen effect to apply to your original "unbacked up" files?
As has been said many times by experienced users in response to your post "FCP cannot do this".
The fuzziness could be the edges of the telecine gate or full frame camera gate. You may not have noticed this looking at a widescreen monitor during grading, it could however have been saved as such after the grade. There is the possibility that this is how the original file was delivered to you and the error occurred prior to you loading it to your media drive.
Cinematographer, Steadicam Operator, Final Cut Pro Post Production.
http://www.steadi-onfilms.com.au/
Re: FCP destoyed my original footage. by Dean Sensui on Jun 28, 2008 at 1:32:41 am
Sounds like you worked on the originals instead of making duplicates and working with those.
Whether the material originates from a camera or a scanner, one should always archive the source material first, then work on copies. That way there's always something to go back to.
And Shane is right. There's no way for FCP to foul up the original media unless you had FCP export a modified version of the material on the sequence, and over-wrote the original media with the same names. However, that's also unlikely as FCP doesn't allow one to overwrite files that are in-use within FCP.
Re: FCP destoyed my original footage. by Dean Sensui on Jun 28, 2008 at 1:39:46 am
Regarding legal recourse, an attorney is about $300/hour. Maybe more. It'll take several hours to consult with an attorney, gather all the required evidence and file a case. Even then it might get tossed out of court if a judge decides that you didn't take normal precautions to protect your source material.
Compare all that -- along with the usual costs of delay -- to the cost of re-digitizing the film.
Better to consult with the telecine service and see if a deal can be worked out, or to determine if they might have made a mistake and inadvertently applied a mask to the film transfer.
Re: FCP destoyed my original footage. by Ed Sully on Jun 28, 2008 at 2:05:27 am
I just wanted to know about legal recourses in such an event should FCP cost me more than the thousand(s) it already has from this one event, but i dont forsee any reason why i should use an apple product in the future. Making the same mistake twice wouldnt hold up in court anyways.
Re: FCP destoyed my original footage. by walter biscardi on Jun 28, 2008 at 2:15:34 am
[Ed Sully]"but i dont forsee any reason why i should use an apple product in the future. Making the same mistake twice wouldnt hold up in court anyways."
That's your choice, but Apple did not cause this issue.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: FCP destoyed my original footage. by Ed Sully on Jun 28, 2008 at 2:29:54 am
I'm beginning to notice a trend with mac users. People find a problem, fanboys defend apple and inturn blame the user.
Ive never had a problem with premiere or avid in all the years i've worked on them. How unfortunate that i was made to work on a G5 for this project. The poor system sputters and lags on 35mm SD footage, i'd hate to see it what it does with real formats.
Re: FCP destoyed my original footage. by walter biscardi on Jun 28, 2008 at 2:35:24 am
[Ed Sully]"I'm beginning to notice a trend with mac users. People find a problem, fanboys defend apple and inturn blame the user."
What you have described is not possible in FCP. If you'd like to see how much of a "fan boy" I am, I suggest you go back and read some of my 16,000+ posts, especially those that came out around NAB 2007 and 2008.
Apple does a lot of things wrong with Studio in general, but this issue is an operator error somewhere along the line, this is not software related.
[Ed Sully]"
Ive never had a problem with premiere or avid in all the years i've worked on them. How unfortunate that i was made to work on a G5 for this project. The poor system sputters and lags on 35mm SD footage, i'd hate to see it what it does with real formats."
Of course, if you can't get the software to work correctly or something completely unforseen has happened, then insult the software, the Apple Community and the FCP community. There's a trend that has been on-going since FCP was introduced. Extremely professional indeed and really makes all of us want to eagerly jump in and assist you further.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: FCP destoyed my original footage. by walter biscardi on Jun 28, 2008 at 2:38:36 am
[Ed Sully]"I already stated i have 10 years experience on NLE's, and they are all more or less the same."
On most levels, but not file management. Having 10 years of experience on Avid and 3 months experience on FCP is quite different than having 3 years experience on Avid, 6 years experience on Media 100 and 7 years experience on FCP.
That's my background and FCP operates completely differently than Media 100 which operated completely differently than Avid. Avid and FCP operate fairly similarly, but not the same, especially when it comes to file management.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: FCP destoyed my original footage. by walter biscardi on Jun 28, 2008 at 2:15:08 am
[Ed Sully]"I opened the original footage outside of FCP and found to my horror that indeed the letterboxing effect had been permanently applied to one of four rolls. I tried opening old saves before the effect had been applied and this did nothing, so indeed FCP has screwed me complete. Has this happened to anyone else? Do i have any legal recourse against apple?"
I'm with Shane on this. FCP can't possibly do this to your original media. The only way this can happen is for you to Export > Quicktime Movie > Make Self Contained Movie and name it the EXACT same name as the original.
But even there, FCP would stop you and tell you the file is in use and cannot be modified.
There's an operator error somewhere along the way and I'm thinking it was in the transfer.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: FCP destoyed my original footage. by Dean Sensui on Jun 28, 2008 at 2:23:29 am
[Ed Sully]"After getting my footage back from telecine, i spent a few days breaking it up"
BTW, is the media file now broken up into short clips, or is it still a single, unbroken file?
If it's cut up then the foulup was something that doesn't happen with FCP. Cutting up a clip in FCP doesn't cut apart the original media file. Instead, each clip within the sequence merely points to various in and out points along the contiguous media file.
If your original media file is now cut up into separate pieces, then your problem is due to something more than simple editing from within FCP.
Re: FCP destoyed my original footage. by Bret Williams on Jun 28, 2008 at 3:07:20 am
Which is how every nle operates. His original post suggests he doesn't understand nles in general. The comment about looking at old autosaves is bewildering. If he's looking at original media directly off the media drive capture scratch, why would looking at an old project file make a difference?
Ed, I would suggest you actually describe the process better. What do you mean you broke up the files? How did you look at the original media in an autosave? Where are you looking at the media? Not within FCP I hope. You realize that the program could easily have a corrupt project file and be accessing an older render file that doesn't want to go away. Retrace your steps. It is definitively user error. And no, this has never happened to anyone else that I have ever heard of.
Re: FCP destoyed my original footage. by Steven Gonzales on Jun 28, 2008 at 3:40:06 am
Coincidence is not causation. You have one roll with letterbox masking, and you tested masking in Final Cut Pro.
I have seen many inconsistencies from telecine houses, but
I have never seen applying a filter in Final Cut change the original source file.
If it is really costly for you to have the footage transferred again, then that cost was caused by not having a copy, and not by Final Cut. Any hard drive can fail at any time.
Re: FCP destoyed my original footage. by Shane Ross on Jun 28, 2008 at 4:40:43 am
"I guess FCP is no longer a NLE."
Ah...and Avid have NEVER had any issues. Nor Media 100. Ever.
If what you describe is something that could have happened with FCP, or has ever happened before, you wouldn't find people defending it. But what you are describing just isn't possible. I don't know of ANY NLE that would do what you are describing, not unless you exported a file to replace the one you are now looking at...as others have stated.
In saying that all NLEs are "all more or less the same" is a bit of a generalization. They all capture footage to hard drives, have timelines that you can edit a sequence on, and you can output to tape or DVD or web...but HOW they all do this is very different. How they deal with media is very different.
As for defending FCP...if you had a problem that is common than we'd be all over it...as we have in the past (Media Management sticks).
Re: FCP destoyed my original footage. by Hans Vernhout on Jun 28, 2008 at 6:01:35 am
Ed,
I see that you joined the cow on June 27th and this is your first post in this wonderful community. On the Cow we all try to help each other by offering workarounds for software bugs, sharing hard won expertise on software or hardware configurations, etc.
As you might be aware by reading the forums there is a lot of expertise and many seasoned professionals are willing to help with serious problems in work related matters. Bashing software or computer brands in general doesn't add to your or our learning experience. Venting frustration is understandable, but professionals differ from amateurs in that they don't get stuck in flame wars.
So may I suggest you take the time to give a detailed report of your workflow so we all might get some benefit out of your postings and the replies offered by others? Maybe your problem can be solved without spending a lot of money, and even if it's operator error somewhere down the line it is a learning opportunity for us all, but only if we know the outcome.
Looking forward to your posts!
Kind regards,
Hans Vernhout
Director / lighting cameraman
The Netherlands
Re: FCP destoyed my original footage. by ed sully on Jun 28, 2008 at 4:58:14 pm
And what have any of you to offer in the way of expert advice other than the lazy answer of "NLE's dont alter original footage"?
Im not looking to start a flame war with anyone, but dont give me flip answers and call yourselves experts. FCP screwed me with its shoddy programming, deliver a viable solution or get off your thrones.
My workflow = 35mm->telecine->in house davinci CC->harddrive transfer->FCP->garbage.
But hey, were all human here, if i had paid for an NLE system for the same price that i could have built five windows equivalents, i would be pretty defensive too. But i've learned something today thanks to all you fine gentleman, its not apple your defending, its bad decision making.
Re: FCP destoyed my original footage. by Shane Ross on Jun 28, 2008 at 5:16:15 pm
Solutions were offered. Contact the post facility to see if they happen to have the footage backed up there. Re-telecine the film.
Once a quicktime file has been altered in the way you describe, that damage is permanent. Information is missing...black bars on the top and bottom of the image. There is no way to recover that information.
OK...just because no one here has ever heard of your issue ever happening doesn't mean that FCP didn't cause it. What seems logical to us is that it was some sort of pilot error...which happens, as you said, everyone's human. But let's say for arguments sake that FCP did alter your footage in this way. Then this is EXTREMELY rare. None of us has ever heard of this happening. So if this happened once to the one person out of a million that own FCP, then it is far from common, and hardly due to shoddy programming. It could have been caused by some random glitch. The solution is to re-telecine the footage. Ask the post house if they could cut you a deal because of this odd error.
And then back up all your footage so that this doesn't happen again.
If FCP was so shoddy than professionals wouldn't be using it.
Re: FCP destoyed my original footage. by walter biscardi on Jun 28, 2008 at 6:38:54 pm
[ed sully]"And what have any of you to offer in the way of expert advice other than the lazy answer of "NLE's dont alter original footage"?"
That's because they don't. The very nature of Non-Linear Editing is non-destructive editing. The original material is never altered unless you save a file with the EXACT same name that has some sort of changes made. Then you would end up with a file with the same name, but altered.
[ed sully]"Im not looking to start a flame war with anyone, but dont give me flip answers and call yourselves experts. FCP screwed me with its shoddy programming, deliver a viable solution or get off your thrones."
Apple has some shoddy programming in the application and they have some features that are just terrible and they also ignore the fact that some very basic workflow issues are being ignored in lieu of "newer and better" features.
But in this case, shoddy programming did not alter your files. Some sort of operator error has altered your files.
[ed sully]"My workflow = 35mm->telecine->in house davinci CC->harddrive transfer->FCP->garbage."
Somewhere in there is an operator error.
[ed sully]"
But hey, were all human here, if i had paid for an NLE system for the same price that i could have built five windows equivalents, i would be pretty defensive too. But i've learned something today thanks to all you fine gentleman, its not apple your defending, its bad decision making."
Five Windows Equivalents? That can edit uncompressed HD and 2K for the price of One FCP System? Wow, I really need to find that because I thought building three complete FCP HD, 2K systems for the price of 1/2 an Avid Symphony was good.
Ed, it's obvious you don't want any further help from us. We've fully explained that FCP, and in fact all NLE's, do not alter the original media files for no apparent reason. The operator (either you or someone else along the way) has done something to cause the files to change OR you're looking at the wrong files.
Not sure which it is but I wish you the best of luck in your future endeavors.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: FCP destoyed my original footage. by Bret Williams on Jun 28, 2008 at 8:37:25 pm
Am I the only one that feels that if I were sitting in front of Ed and his system with his capture scratch, the files from cc, and his render files (and the ability to view modification and creation dates) that I could decipher what happened very quickly? Ed, get an actual FCP editor over there for an hour and see what is going on. Your emotions are getting in the way of reason. Can't blame you. You've got a new system and to you it appears in every way that FCP has done something to your files. You need an objective 3rd party to check it out.
Re: FCP destoyed my original footage. by Steve Connor on Jun 28, 2008 at 9:19:13 pm
As has been said FCP CANNOT modify master clips - it's an issue that has NEVER appeared on any forum - you have made a mistake somewhere or the original telecine was in letterbox and you didn't notice.
Get someone in who knows what they are doing and for heavens sake back-up your files in future.
Steve Connor
Adrenalin Television
Have you tried "Search Posts"? Enlightenment may be there.
Re: FCP destoyed my original footage. by Peter Brauner on Jun 29, 2008 at 9:33:53 am
A good thing to do is to check the creation and modified timestamp of the files that you think has got altered, and compare those with some of the files that is still unaltered. Very easy to do in Finder. Just mark the file and press cmd+i or right click on the file and choose "show info". There you can read exactly when the file was created and it was supposedly modified.
This will not help you to restore your originals but will indeed show if you missed checking this particular reel. And if they has not got modified since the Davinci wrote the originals to the drive you know that it has not been a fault from either you or your software and you may force the transfer house to get you new originals for free.
Good luck!
Cheers!
Peter Brauner
VFX Artist
Effektfabriken
www.effektfabriken.se
Re: FCP destoyed my original footage. by Mitch Ives on Jun 30, 2008 at 4:07:38 pm
[walter biscardi]"Ed, it's obvious you don't want any further help from us. We've fully explained that FCP, and in fact all NLE's, do not alter the original media files for no apparent reason. The operator (either you or someone else along the way) has done something to cause the files to change OR you're looking at the wrong files. "
Ed has a number of issues. If he was as experienced as he claims, it would have already donned on him that the simple solution is to take one of the other reels that he has confirmed are not letter-boxed, copy it and walk it through FCP. When the problem doesn't occur, then he will know that the one reel he had trouble with was in fact different in some way. If the problem does occur, then he can document in detail exactly what he did... post some footage for Apple and the rest of us to test. Of course that would actually accomplish something...
Re: FCP destoyed my original footage. by Daryl K Davis on Jun 30, 2008 at 5:31:31 am
Obviously he's a troll and trying to fan some flames. There is no logic to his original question and he backed it up with very little detail in response.
-------------------------
DK Davis / Editor/ Post Super
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Re: FCP destoyed my original footage. by Ron Lindeboom on Jul 20, 2008 at 3:37:25 pm
[ed sully]"But hey, were all human here, if i had paid for an NLE system for the same price that i could have built five windows equivalents, i would be pretty defensive too. But i've learned something today thanks to all you fine gentleman, its not apple your defending, its bad decision making."
Ed,
I just ran into this post when you tried to get your anti-Apple crap going in the After Effects forum and so I began digging into some of your past posts and found this.
I am going to give it to you straight: You damaged your own files when you (to quote you) "spent a few days breaking it up and decided to apply 16:9 letter box effect to get a better idea of what i had to work with." You damaged the files by overwriting them. FCP does not do this -- EVER.
And don't call me an Apple fanboy or your words will be your last. You see, I use both PCs and Macs -- oh, and own a dozen Linux boxes to boot. I could care less whose system I am on, it's all just silicon, plastic and a bit of metal to me. I have NEVER found a perfect OS but I have also NEVER found a nonlinear system that overwrites the source files -- that takes a human to do that. And as you did say "hey, we're all human here," I would recommend that as the origin of your problem. As the old adage goes: It's a poor workman that blames his tools.
But I notice how quick you are to throw away the feedback and experience of those whose resumes (both individually and collectively) far outweigh your own.
What you are wanting people to tell you is that you didn't f*** up, but you did. It was your fault and in all the years I have spent building forums (which just passed 13 years in June of 2008), I have yet to find ANY nonlinear editing system that EVER overwrote its source files. You did that when you "spent a few days breaking it up and decided to apply 16:9 letter box effect to get a better idea of what i had to work with." You slowly, meticulously and industriously destroyed your own source footage -- one "break up" at a time. (Don't ask me how, as I wasn't there, and I do not know your workflow -- but I will guarantee you did it as NO nonlinear system works that way or ever overwrites the source files.)
If you wish to find the source of your problem, run down to WalMart and go to the housewares department and look for a mirror. Hold it up and look into it. There's the problem.
Oh, and try the anti-Apple troll garbage in this site EVER again and you will be gone. I tire of fanboys very quickly -- no matter whose KoolAid they are drinking.
Lastly, I know many of the people that replied in this thread and tried to help you. Their combined broadcast output accounts for many network series, documentaries and other fare. To treat them as idiot fanboys shows that your agenda is NOT to find the truth and solve the problem, but is rather to be a problem yourself. We do NOT tolderate that around here, Ed.
Keep that in mind the next time you decide to pull something like this and insult those who are trying to help you. Oh, and keep in mind that I do have 13 years of building communities and when I want to "disappear someone," I have built the tools that allow me to lock you out of ever seeing the COW, let alone post to it.
Best regards,
Ron Lindeboom co-founder, creativecow.net
Remember: Burt Bacharach lied. What the world really needs now is an undo button.
Re: FCP destoyed my original footage. by Dean Sensui on Jun 29, 2008 at 10:41:38 am
[rich krysz]"Can't you just look at your original media files on your capture scratch??
Get out of FCP...go to your capture scratch and look for the media. Play them). see how they look like."
I think he did:
"I opened the original footage outside of FCP and found to my horror that indeed the letterboxing effect had been permanently applied to one of four rolls."
Re: FCP destoyed my original footage. by Chi-Ho Lee on Jun 29, 2008 at 2:23:13 pm
When he said "breaking it up" does he mean subclipping or exporting shorter chunk? If he exported short chunks then it could've exported with the filter and that's why he's seeing the letterbox.
He has 10 years of NLE experience and he can't even describe his process in a more detailed report than that? Can't even use the terms subclip or export to help us help him? And asks about legal action? Anyways, didn't he telecine to a tape? Just recapture from your tape!
This guys is totally a troll. He's either a kid or a disgruntled out of work Avid fanboy. No real person is that absurd.
Chi-Ho Lee
Film & Television Editor
Apple Certified Final Cut Pro Trainer
www.chiholee.com
Re: FCP destoyed my original footage. by Chi-Ho Lee on Jun 30, 2008 at 2:56:33 pm
[rene hazekamp]"The guy has a problem and we could help him (and our selfs) more or better by asking questions than by being judgemental. "
Have you read the whole thread? People have been more than polite, cordial,. and helpful with him at the beginning. It was him who started to respond with an attitude and talk crap about people who were trying to help him.
It's hard to help people who aren't grateful or respectful for your advice. Maybe you should try a crack at it?
Chi-Ho Lee
Film & Television Editor
Apple Certified Final Cut Pro Trainer
www.chiholee.com
