Let's imagine I have a sequence called "Ep 1 - Part 1", then I create a new sequence called "Ep 1 - Compile Master". I open the Part 1 sequence in the Viewer and drag/edit into the Compile to nest it in that sequence.
I would then expect that if I make a change to the "Ep 1 - Part 1" sequence in my project that it would be reflect in the Compile, but this isn't the case. Instead I seem to have two copies of the sequence now, one that's available from the Browser, and one that I can only reach by double-clicking on the nested sequence in my Compile sequence.
Is this right? It certainly was my impression that a nested sequence was more like a link to another sequence, but now it appears to be more like a copy of a sequence (which seems much less useful).
I haven't got the manual handy at the moment (I'm at home now) but the stuff I've read online seems a little ambiguous on exactly how this relationship works.
Re: Am I misunderstanding nesting? by Russell Lasson on May 9, 2008 at 1:09:44 am
That seems consistent with how nesting works here. Whether or not you like it is a different story. I might suggest using the feedback option if you feel strongly about it.
Re: Am I misunderstanding nesting? by Dylan Reeve on May 9, 2008 at 1:45:38 am
It just seems to defeat the advantage of it. In Avid I can edit a sequence into another one, even 'nest' it into a single layer if I want, but it only exists there as a copy of the source sequence, I'd thought that FCP saw it as a reference to the source sequence, which would actually seem to be a benefit, rather than the way it is at the moment, which just confuses matters because there are then sequences which only exist within other sequences, and can only be accessed through the sequence in which it exists.
I'm now curious, if I nest Sequence A in Sequence B, and then duplicate Sequence B as Sequence C, then will changes made to the nested Sequence A in Sequence B also be reflected in C? (Well, I'm confused).
Re: Am I misunderstanding nesting? by Tom Wolsky on May 9, 2008 at 1:52:02 am
From what you describe I don't understand why this is happening. Your work procedure should make the sequence recursive. What you do in Part 1 should be reflected in Compile. Unless you did a copy and paste this should work. The only time this may not happen is you have I/O marked in Part 1. That I/O will be honored as a clip when the sequence is edited into another sequence.
All the best,
Tom
Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP6," "Basic Training for FCS2" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Author: "Final Cut Pro 5 Editing Essentials" and "Final Cut Express 3.5 HD Editing Workshop"
Re: Am I misunderstanding nesting? by Dylan Reeve on May 9, 2008 at 2:56:21 am
Nope, definitely not copy-pasting.
I take a sequence from the browser, drop it in the Viewer, then edit it into the timeline (with F9 or whatever).
If I then go back and make a change in that source sequence, the change is not reflected in the timeline I nested it in. If I double click on the nested sequence it opens up another one in the Timeline (so I have two tabs called 'Part 1' for example) which doesn't reflect any changes made to the one I access from the Browser.
Re: Am I misunderstanding nesting? by Jeremy Garchow on May 9, 2008 at 3:18:15 am
Also, when you nest part 1, make sure you close it in the timeline window, then open it from the compile nest. Once you open it from the compile nest, any changes you make should update.
Re: Am I misunderstanding nesting? by Tom Wolsky on May 9, 2008 at 3:40:21 am
I followed your direction step by step and cannot reproduce the behavior you're seeing. If I make a new sequence. Take an existing sequence and drag it into the Viewer (bypassing this step makes no difference) and edit it into the new sequence. Opening the Part 1 sequence from inside the Browser or inside the compile sequence will make no difference and produce the same result.
If the part 1 sequence is open in the timeline window and you drag the sequence from the browser to the viewer, the part 1 sequence in the timeline automatically closes.
As long as there are no I/O points marked in the part 1 sequence when it's in the browser it works correctly.
All the best,
Tom
Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP6," "Basic Training for FCS2" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Author: "Final Cut Pro 5 Editing Essentials" and "Final Cut Express 3.5 HD Editing Workshop"
Re: Am I misunderstanding nesting? by Bret Williams on May 9, 2008 at 4:24:23 am
He's yet to say whether he's marking IO in the viewer. I have to assume he is, otherwise why the heck waste the time of dragging it into the viewer? He said he's pressing F9 (and not dragging it from the viewer) so sounds like a IO F9 kinda guy. Dylan?
Re: Am I misunderstanding nesting? by Rafael Amador on May 9, 2008 at 4:36:39 am
I think all the mess is because Dylan is with FC 5.1.x
In FC 6 this have been fixed.
Mac OX 10.5.2-FC 6.02-QT 7.4.1
G5 2x2Gh 4GbRAM-BlackMagic Extreme
PMBP 17"Core2Duo 4GbRAM-AJA ioHD
JVC DTV-17"
SONY EX-1 . SONY PD170
..and always a big mess on top of the table.
Re: Am I misunderstanding nesting? by Bret Williams on May 9, 2008 at 5:02:50 am
I found they screwed it all up in 5, and screwed it up more in 6.
Here's the crap they were pulling...
It used to be so simple. If you dragged a sequence/nest from a bin into a timeline, it referenced the original nest. If you coped that nest in any way, it lost it's connection. This including making copies of the sequence for versioning.
Then at some point they made it where when you option dragged a nest to copy it, it kept it's link to the original, and when you copy pasted a nest, it lost the connection. Well, that was cool because it was quick and once you knew the rules it was very effective.
Then with 6, they took that away and went back to any type of copying losing connection whether it be option drag or copy paste.
They're pulling the same garbage with the current snapping system. I refuse to try to figure out the new methodd because they'll go back to the old way in version 7 probably. Just after I've got it programmed into my brain.
They also took away the deselect all button. For 5 years it was cmd+d. It hit that button before I did just about anything. Then they made it the simpler shift+cmd+A. Uhhhh.... what? Photoshop is cmd+d. If it's good enough for photoshop it's good enough for FCP. They didn't even replace cmd+d with anything. I map it back on every system I use.
Re: Am I misunderstanding nesting? by Dylan Reeve on May 9, 2008 at 7:33:11 am
I am usually marking In/Out and hitting F9. Not always marking though, as at times I want the entire sequence anyway.
I believe (although I'll have to check) that I'm seeing the same result with nests I have created by selecting clips and choosing Sequence->Create Nest (or whatever that is). Where edits to the sequence are not consistent between the double-clicked sequence in the Timeline and the one I open from the Browser.
Don't think so by Jeff Coleman on May 9, 2008 at 3:21:51 pm
Dylan seems right about his expectations.
About 18 months ago I used this feature extensively for a super wide screen multi-monitor project using FCP 5.1. Each screen was a separate monitor sequence, but the entire composite display was a sequence made up of the four monitor sequences each in their respective position. Every time I changed one of the monitor sequences the change was reflected in the composite. I couldn't do that in Avid and thought this was a great feature of FCP.
Today I'm using 5.1.4 on a G5 and I just tried it and it works the same. If I mark and In and a Out or if I overwrite the entire sequence, all the changes are reflected in the composite sequence.
If it's not like that in FCP 6.xx, then is it a bug or a feature removal?
Re: Am I misunderstanding nesting? by Bob Flood on May 9, 2008 at 4:28:48 pm
Dylan
I find nesting in FCP to be a joke. No matter what combination of keystrokes i try i can never CONSISTENTLY get a sequence to effectively nest in another sequence such that the sequence in the browser matches the sequence i have nested. I have tried copying, dragging, inserting, on a train, on a plane, etc.
I also hate how if i Ripple a shot in the pre sequence, it ripples the destination sequence as well, unless i lock the dest sequence.
so I dont use it.
what I do is I export a native resolution self-contained quicktime movie, and use that as my pre sequence. When I revise the export, It relinks to the clip I have nested.
yeah its a little more time, but its a lot less headache.
Sometimes if I revise my pre sequence, and need to re export, i have to export to the folder above where the export lives, then replace it in the Finder. Sometimes!
just put a sequence together, export it native ie File>Export>Quicktime Movie , save it to a folder in your capture scratch folder on your media drive, and cut it in.
Re: Am I misunderstanding nesting? by Tom Wolsky on May 9, 2008 at 4:43:43 pm
What version of FCP are you using?
Don't use any keystroke. You're probably applying a modifier and changing the behavior.
In current versions of FCP nesting works exactly as it should. I does what it's supposed to do in a predictable fashion. The only instances in which there have been issues are related to render files in nested sequences. Perhaps it's not working as you would like but it works as designed and as laid out in the manual.
All the best,
Tom
Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP6," "Basic Training for FCS2" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Author: "Final Cut Pro 5 Editing Essentials" and "Final Cut Express 3.5 HD Editing Workshop"
Re: Am I misunderstanding nesting? by Bob Flood on May 9, 2008 at 5:27:33 pm
Tom
here is the deal. If i select a group of clips in a sequence and create a nest from those it works pretty well. I always have to double click my "nest result" to open my nest. I have to lock my tracks so when i need to extend the last shot of the nest for handle, it doesnt ripple my main timeline.
BUT
If i try and get the nest into the browser it gets all screwy
Honestly, It has been so long since I have tried doing any nesting other than the way i described my workflow, I cannot remember the circumstances where i found it inconsistent.
Now that being said, what i thought or waht it seemed nesting was supposed to do was give you a "submaster clip" that you could copy, and duplicate, and no matter how many copies you had, they all pointed to the same subtimeline. I dont think it works that way, so i do exports and imports to get that functionality.
Re: Am I misunderstanding nesting? by Tom Wolsky on May 9, 2008 at 5:38:44 pm
When you make the nest in the timeline using the Sequence menu or Opt-C it automatically creates a nest in the browser. You shouldn't have to move it into the browser. If you do you're making another copy.
The recursive behavior is deliberate. There are ways around this like setting I/O points in the nest. Then when the sequence is nested anything outside the marked I/O will not ripple the parent sequence. This has been the application behavior since very early versions.
What you describe is the way nesting works. The only instance in which it doesn't is if you use a copy and paste function. The copy and paste produces a separate sequence, not related to the original nest, nor does it appear in the browser. This was a design choice. Not one I like, but there it is. If you reuse a sequence from the browser and repeatedly nest it multiple times they will all be the same sequence and behave the same way and have the same content.
All the best,
Tom
Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP6," "Basic Training for FCS2" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Author: "Final Cut Pro 5 Editing Essentials" and "Final Cut Express 3.5 HD Editing Workshop"
Re: Am I misunderstanding nesting? by Bob Flood on May 9, 2008 at 6:49:59 pm
Tom
wow thanx!
ok ok i think i am trackin ya here
However:
"If you reuse a sequence from the browser and repeatedly nest it multiple times they will all be the same sequence and behave the same way and have the same content."
How do i do this? do i load it into the viewer and press f10? do i double click it into the viewer or drag it into the viewer?
or do i drag it straight from the browser to the timeline i want to have it in?
(i think this is where i was not getting consistent or confusing results, and again it may have been me.)
Re: Am I misunderstanding nesting? by Tom Wolsky on May 9, 2008 at 7:03:44 pm
Double clicking it will simply open it. Personally I find the easiest way with sequences is just to drag the sucker into the timeline.
All the best,
Tom
Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP6," "Basic Training for FCS2" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Author: "Final Cut Pro 5 Editing Essentials" and "Final Cut Express 3.5 HD Editing Workshop"
Re: Am I misunderstanding nesting? by Dylan Reeve on May 9, 2008 at 9:17:50 pm
Well, I am definitely not using copy and paste, and yet I am not getting the expected results with nesting consistently (I believe a couple of the nests work as I want, but most don't).
Re: Am I misunderstanding nesting? by walter biscardi on May 10, 2008 at 12:12:33 pm
[Dylan Reeve]"Is this right? It certainly was my impression that a nested sequence was more like a link to another sequence, but now it appears to be more like a copy of a sequence (which seems much less useful).
I haven't got the manual handy at the moment (I'm at home now) but the stuff I've read online seems a little ambiguous on exactly how this relationship works."
This is correct, if you simply create the Nest and put it into the Browser, anytime you bring that into another Sequence, that will be an independent nest.
The way to do your workflow is to start the same way, create the Nest, drag that nest into your Compile Sequence.
Now anytime you want to make a change to Ep 1 - Part 1, you simply double click that in the Compile sequence. That will open the Ep - Part 1 timeline and you can make changes that will be reflected in the Compile timeline.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: Am I misunderstanding nesting? by Dylan Reeve on May 10, 2008 at 10:16:52 pm
That is counter-intuitive.
I expect whatever is in the Browser to be the authoritative collection of what exists in the project. At least generally.
So if I'm using the sequence called 'Ep 1 - Part 1' as a nest in another sequence, I would expect that changes to the sequence in the Browser (the source essentially) would be reflected. Instead as soon as I create that nest I essentially obsolete original sequence, as no changes I make will be reflected in my nested uses of the sequence. If I wanted that result, I would duplicate the sequence before I nested it.
Re: Am I misunderstanding nesting? by Russell Lasson on May 10, 2008 at 10:23:25 pm
I guess the reason why it's set up that way is because that's the way that clips behave. When you put a clip in the timeline, it becomes independent of the clip in the browser.
Re: Am I misunderstanding nesting? by walter biscardi on May 10, 2008 at 10:28:55 pm
[Dylan Reeve]"That is counter-intuitive.
I expect whatever is in the Browser to be the authoritative collection of what exists in the project. At least generally."
It is, but it's actually a strength of FCP when you figure out what it's doing. When you drop a clip, or a nest, into a timeline, it becomes independent of what is in the Browser.
So your clip in the Browser remains untouched exactly how it was captured or placed in there. This is a good thing so you always have the original clip at your disposal.
Coming from another NLE, this would probably seem counter to what you would want, but once you get used to it, you can use it to your advantage.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: Am I misunderstanding nesting? by Dylan Reeve on May 11, 2008 at 2:14:44 am
I suppose so. But if the source file of a clip changes then all clips referencing that source file will reflect that change (in theory, in practice I see that can sometimes be a little quirky). That's how I'd expect the nesting to work.
In our case we're dealing with each program part as a separate sequence (as we have to do that for Color and just carry on that way). So when all is said and done (in theory) we put the parts in another sequence as the finished ep. Then, if when we're reviewing that episode we see something that needs attention, we would go to that part's sequence (as that's the master for that part of the episode) and make a change. That change however isn't reflected in our output master. The other option is that we edit the part by double-clicking the nest in the episode sequence, but the limitation there is that the change we make there exists only there. If that output sequence were to be deleted, or we were to come back later (to make DVDs for example) and look just at the parts, we'd have lost any changes we made in the nested part.
Given what a nested sequence is, this functionality doesn't make sense to me, even given the clip independence thing. The sequence is more akin to the actual video content (file) than the clip as it exists in the bin.
Coming from Avid, this functionality doesn't even exist (although given the non-relative nature of it, I suppose it does, in the form of editing one sequence into another and collapsing it).
