PROMAX out of business?
by robert reed
on
May 6, 2008 at 10:27:49 pm
A friend of mine called me today and said that one of the ex-Promax employees told him that the crew was given their last checks on April 30th and that the company was shutting down.
I just tried calling my salesman and for the first time, no one answered.
They were also not there at the last LAFCPUG meeting that just happened. I think that is a first, also.
Re: PROMAX out of business? by Ron Lindeboom on May 7, 2008 at 12:01:21 am
Yes, it is true. Kathlyn and I found out about it yesterday and didn't want to say anything until either Promax officially announced it or people found out on their own.
Sad, as they have been one of the great companies and to think that Charles McConathy's baby is now gone is very sad indeed.
Re: PROMAX out of business? by walter biscardi on May 7, 2008 at 1:02:00 am
[Ron Lindeboom]"Yes, it is true. Kathlyn and I found out about it yesterday and didn't want to say anything until either Promax officially announced it or people found out on their own."
Wow, very very sad. Of course you read on these forums every day how folks say it's so easy to just build your own systems, I guess it's getting harder for VAR's to stay in business, even one as incredibly good as ProMax.
I always support the VAR with all my purchases just because I really like having that relationship with one set of sales reps and technicians. Shame more people don't put that emphasis on the business relationship rather than just saving a few bucks here and there.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: PROMAX out of business? by Michael Sacci on May 7, 2008 at 1:34:14 am
Hate to hear this, you have to think this is the end of the era for VARs. Not to blame anyone/anything but I think part of the death blow are places like the cow, everyone has access to the knowledge of the pros.
There is one subject that needs to be discussed and that is the ethics of buying. While I order a lot of stuff online, for both price and availability reasons, but anytime I go into a place of business to see/touch a product, because that seeing or touch is important for me to do before I make the purchase, I always buy the product from the store. To many people use retails as a demo place and I think that is wrong.
Re: PROMAX out of business? by David Roth Weiss on May 7, 2008 at 1:44:32 am
[Michael Sacci]"There is one subject that needs to be discussed and that is the ethics of buying."
This is definitely a problem all over the country. Between WalMart and the Internet retailers every local retailer in the country is facing extinction.
I don't however think sources of information, such as The Cow, are a problem. In fact, knowledge stimulates increased sales, as contented buyers are more likely to be repeat buyers.
David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™
A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, and Indie Film & Documentary forums.
Re: PROMAX out of business? by Michael Sacci on May 7, 2008 at 1:58:52 am
I didn't mean to say it is a problem but it has to hurt the VARs. The VARs biggest services are knowledge to guide people to the right equipment before the sale and then quick help for when things are not working correctly, both of these are now given out for free. If you go back 5 or 6 years when you had a hardware issue with say Sonic or Cinewave, where could you go for help, only to the manufacture or the VAR you purchased it from. Now we post. I wish the 2 could live together because places like ProMax offer a lot that isn't easy to be replaced.
Re: PROMAX out of business? by Nate Stephens on May 7, 2008 at 2:39:46 am
Guys, don't you think this is more an indicator of how soft our economy is here in the states. I am sure Promax loved all us little guys, all potential or current clients. But they didn't live off of 20K edit tickets. Their money clients had to be the big Government, corporate and university accounts. Big money accounts that have shriveled to nothing over the past 4 years. It is not the COW or the forums or little guys kicking showroom tires. There is just not the big, ok call it stout money jobs out there right now. I just got a call from a past client, who works for the state. She used to be good for two stout jobs a year. No work from her in over 4 years and when she called she was asking if I can still work at 1995 rates.. HD anyone...
It is just video, anybody can do it...... There is video work out there... it is just packaged differently, and if anybody knows what it looks like when it walks in the room will you point it out to me..... Cause it is not the same old video business anymore.
Re: PROMAX out of business? by Michael Sacci on May 7, 2008 at 2:57:29 am
I got friends that just went to work for a company that does video for the National Guard, no lack of spending there, but a long shoot. Everyone in the video business I know is doing pretty well, and while it is a changin' money and budgets are there.
I think there is tougher tie to come but when you look at Apple's sales numbers you can't say that it is the economy is pitching computer sales (not to say this isn't changing also.) If you look at most pro video equipment companies I think most are going pretty strong.
What has changed is the business model, and big time, they way we buy and the way we need do our business has changed,
Re: PROMAX out of business? by Mark Suszko on May 7, 2008 at 3:43:13 am
Place was just not the same after Charles died. Who knows but that there were many reasons for them to close. Shipping was a major expense when gas went up. Keeping a decent inventory in stock while the makers keep changing models every couple months probably didn't help. If they had a lot of long-term employees the salary and benefits probably ate a big chunk. The VAR's knowledge base remains valuable but they never made much money on that part of it, only on actual sales and service.
In the Chicago area we felt it very deeply when we lost Swidersky, and before that, Victor Duncan (before it changed). The number of VAR's that are of decent size and that know their stuff, is dwindling. For our shop, it makes it ever-harder to find enough competitive bidders for any big purchase. The VARS that remain seem to be tending towards narrower specialties, likely driven by whatever hardware and software brings in the best margin, not necessarily what is the best fit for a particular client's needs. Unless the economy blossoms forth again, I think you'll see the sad trend continue. Only the strong and the quick will survive.
Re: PROMAX out of business? by David Roth Weiss on May 7, 2008 at 3:43:23 am
[Nate Stephens]"Guys, don't you think this is more an indicator of how soft our economy is here in the states."
Yes! Undoubtedly. And I fear this is just the start and that we'll be discussing similar matters for quite some time. With oil at 125 dollars a barrel and a perpetual war, its could be a long ride.
David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™
A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, and Indie Film & Documentary forums.
Re: PROMAX out of business? by Dan Riley on May 7, 2008 at 4:15:16 am
My take is, a VAR needs to be local. What's the need for a VAR
that can't show up at your place in a few hours when your system
goes down? Promax and Charles were really neat. I loved talking
with him each year at the shindig at the Stardust. It sucks they
will be gone. I bought a bunch of stuff from them in the early 2000s.
I don't believe the need for value added retailers are going away,
quite the opposite. If you are in the business of making TV, you can't
possibly follow all the ins and outs of the equipment business.
A company here in Seattle that we do our business with, Media Tools,
is not only price competitive with out of town equipment sales people
but they bring service to the table as well. There is no reason
to order from LA when you've got the best deal and service
right here in town.
Re: PROMAX out of business? by Gary Alan on May 7, 2008 at 2:48:54 pm
With all due respect to Ron and COW, yes it is David. Everyday you see a kid on here asking how to do something cus he just got a big gig and doesn't know where to start. And all the pros on here jump in quickly to tell him how to do it thinking they will be appreciated for all their knowledge and generosity. Meanwhile, a real pro just lost a job to this kid. The client is going cheap and gets pissed off in the end for how long it takes and the low quality of work from the noob kid. Then they come to you, upset, and want it done at a low cost to make up for what they just spent on the noob.
Today, these kids ( I mean anyone new to the biz) won't pay his dues and be an assistant and learn from a pro. He comes here and gets instant answers. I read it everyday. Then they are back next week with more questions on how to finish the job. How many of you old pros out there learned "everything" in a month, or a week? I bet no one.
We all would like to have a community to share info, but you all are giving away the business for free and our market is "very much diluted" with too many people stealing work for very low rates, or for free to get their foot in the door and not taking the time to learn first.
It all started when the manufacturers lowered the costs of high end gear to let all the amateurs enter the pro biz. Their sales went up for quantity and not for quality. They also ruined our business by doing this. Everyone today has to work for very low rates cus the kid will do it for free. You see it happening now in all businesses. The car comapnies are laying off everyone for cheap third world labor. But who will buy the cars in the future when everyone is out of work? The third world people? And for how much per car? Quality seems to not be important anymore.
A kid can go to Best Buy with mommy's CC and be in the HD biz tomorrow for 5 to 10k. They can also get all the software for free on the web with a little knowledge and searching (illegally, but true). FCS, Maya, AE, almost everything. I had to pay my dues fore five years at a network station and then spend half a million in gear to compete at a pro level. That is what drew the line between pro and amateur. Also the length of work experience. Not anymore.
My message to all of you is "don't be surprised when you have to lower your rates or even close your business, like Promax. You gave it away for free over the last 8 years by babysitting the noobs on their first jobs.
I am sure there are exceptions to all of this, but you should be able to see the point in all of this.
Re: PROMAX out of business? by Shane Ross on May 7, 2008 at 3:16:31 pm
YOu know what Gary...you are VERY right. We do tend to give out information about setups and hints on solving problems. And this isn't the first time I have heard this...that we are giving out information for free. Technical stuff on what machine works for what...and how to deliver a final product.
What we don't talk about is how to be creative...how to tell a story...how to edit the project so that the client will like it. That is all up to the talent of the person at the wheel. If they can't deliver, than they won't get too far. And if a client hired one of these new editors without researching them and looking at a reel...all to save a little money...then they only have themselves to blame. The market is FLOODED with "FCP editors," but my producers are smart enough to ask for a demo reel, and interview them to find out what they know, what they can do, and what they can deliver.
We don't hand out talent...that can only happen through practice and through apprenticeship.
Re: PROMAX out of business? by Patrick Sheffield on May 7, 2008 at 3:33:46 pm
We are not some sacred priesthood - holding on to our power thru secret sacred knowledge.
Yes - I've seen those posts "HELP - I just got this job and I'm finishing my first broadcast commercial and what do I need to do?". Those aren't the people I help here or on the Apple forums. It's actually ludicrous to try - the amount of knowledge required is too great to be handled by a few posts in an online forum.
But the people I usually end up helping are fellow editors who have been handed something wacky - frame rates off, or technical assistance - "how come my optical flow speed change is filling my hard drive", or recommends - "Anyone use the NimbleFinger trackball?".
To blame forums like this for the decline in our business is misguided. If you wanna talk about that, that's a thread all its own,
Re: PROMAX out of business? by Wayne Carey on May 7, 2008 at 3:48:45 pm
Wow.... I'm really really bummed out! ProMax was an extremely valuable source for turnkey edit systems and only selling you what you needed.
Wow... that threw me back...
[Patrick Sheffield]"To blame forums like this for the decline in our business is misguided. If you wanna talk about that, that's a thread all its own, "
That would be completely unfair to say this. Forums are around to help us to be better editors, not to replace VARs.
I will say that it is silly for anyone to purchase tech support for FCP. The is much faster and much more reliable than Apple. Most (not all) tech support folks are just reading scripts and following on screen directions. You know, as well as anyone, issues arise differently for just about everyone and there is no way on God's green earth for tech support to log every single issue with a solution.
This isn't the demise for ProMax, it has to be something else like the economy.
_______________________________
Wayne Carey
Schazam Productions
www.schazamproductions.com
http://blogs.creativecow.net/waynecarey
Re: PROMAX out of business? by Jerry Hofmann on May 7, 2008 at 4:08:02 pm
I really don't see the universe as finite... If the noob hadn't existed, I'll wager the job wouldn't have happened. I don't see a loss of work around me even though I post answers, I teach, and even help graduate film students all the time locally.
Work begets more work. Good work begets even more. Bad work doesn't do a darn thing but upset the clients, and results in no repeat business nor referrals which is most of the way we all get work.
Hey, I make more money now than before, so just don't get this attitude that says if we help them, they will take over the world... you simply don't get to producing quality work with just the tools bought don't think, and the lack of experience shows all the time. In fact, whenever a client has done something like hire a noob, they ask me to fix it and they never try that again...
The only way that you'll have to take less money for the same work is because you buy into it... so... don't. If you do, it's YOU lowering the rates, not the noobs... Just don't do it. I've seen it work over and over. I haven't lowered a rate since I jumped from Avid. That was about 8 years ago, and my rates have held steady or increased yearly with all the clients I work with. They hire me, not the machines, not the software... me. So my advice to anyone encountering this is to just hold firm with your rates. The client may not do business with you, but he also won't get a very good program the vast majority of the time, and will learn the lesson of using newbies... it's not the best idea!
Re: PROMAX out of business? by Russell Lasson on May 7, 2008 at 5:05:20 pm
Man, my employment opportunities have done nothing except go down hill since I started learning so much from the cow. It's been rough, but worth the extra knowledge:)
Re: PROMAX out of business? by David Roth Weiss on May 7, 2008 at 4:43:26 pm
[Gary Alan]"My message to all of you is "don't be surprised when you have to lower your rates or even close your business, like Promax. You gave it away for free over the last 8 years by babysitting the noobs on their first jobs."
Gary,
I'm sure the first gold miners were pissed-off when the gold-rush began too. Many just quit and went home penniless, but some stayed and worked that much harder to make their stake. Some of them made it, some didn't...
The inexorable truth is, one needs to adjust and reinvent in the face change, because it is coming.
The so called democratization of this business started way back in the 1980's and it continues today on many fronts, including equipment, pricing, and as you point out, information. Its called progress, and progress like change is inevitable. You can either bemoan it or embrace it, but in either case, like it or not, its coming to a place near you.
I also enjoyed the days of old when I was part of a tight-knit club that, if you could deliver, paid the few who could very handsomely. Yep, those were the days. Its harder now, more people are mining the gold and the gold is getting harder to find in spite of the free roadmaps that the Internet has provided. But its still out there for the taking, you just gotta figure new and inventive ways to grab the nuggets before the kids beat you to it.
David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™
A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, and Indie Film & Documentary forums.
Re: PROMAX out of business? by ben scott on May 7, 2008 at 10:45:15 pm
some quite strong opinions in this post about a company going under, in fact not sure if totally specific to them going under, anyway.
in my opinion smaller the company better the service, better supporting them by buying from them rather than the big guys
however SATA came along and changed things
other thing I would suggest is that I have always been of the opinion that any hardware I buy will break at some point soon and I better work out myself how to fix it (apple care support - joke, learn it yourself and get techtoolpro)
so I would say kit is cheaper, macs work with any hardware now and people know more
accept it the kids grow up, they used computers since they were infants some other generations didnt.
I do recognise quality of what passes for TV is getting worse (just turn on BBC news night scotland)
also think shanes comment about talent is particularly important here. until people recognise that talent comes from many different practices these conversations about whos allowed to do work, whos allowed the knowledge .... will continue.
my opinion "knowledge shouldnt be so precious get it out there, just make sure the people learning are as thoroughly as those showing them".
Re: PROMAX out of business? by Burt Hazard on May 7, 2008 at 12:41:35 pm
Yeah, that is a shock.
[walter biscardi]"Wow, very very sad. Of course you read on these forums every day how folks say it's so easy to just build your own systems, I guess it's getting harder for VAR's to stay in business, even one as incredibly good as ProMax."
I think this is exactly the problem. Way back in 1999 COMPUTER VIDEOMAKER had a write-up about a VAR called ProMax that was configuring turn-key non-linear editing systems utlizing Adobe Premiere and the (at the time) new Apple B&W G3s and I realized "I gotta get me one of them pups!" When I enquired about a certain config, the salesman told me that it now came with Apple's new editing software Final Cut Pro, so I took the plunge and purchased it. Not only was it a tested system, but it came with a nice Sony NTSC monitor and a ProMax "TurboMax" ATA expander, and a 16.8 GB internal video drive (exciting!). But yeah, nowadays you can totally build your own reliable editing beast(s) of course. And you can pick up LaCie drives (or whatever) at your local Apple store, Computer MicroCenter, of course as well. But I agree, it's still better to have a relationship with a reputable VAR.
And this actually dovetails into a thread a while back on this forum about newbies constantly asking very basic questions without first delving into the manuals, etc., etc. etc. Back in those days we were all in the dark. I was coming from Avid Media Composer and Immix Video Cube experience and at the time I was confused about this new totally digital realm (new digital camera, new computer, new operating system, and a new non-linear system to get up to speed with). When the original 2-Pop.com started up, we were basically just helping each other out the best we could. Add to that the skimpy and chintzy FCP 1.0 manual, and it was defintely learn as you go. Well at least until Lisa Brenneis and Peachpit Press came out with the first FCP Quickstart Guide.
Locally where I live we do have two quasi-pro dealers but frankly they are sort of a joke. One of them has a fairly big showroom (although nothing on the scale of B&H in NY) and always carried some pro video, lighting. etc. stuff. But the last time I was in there they had combined the video and still camera sections into one and filled a lot of the showroom with even more consumer crap. Both these places are the type of places where you can be behind someone in line who is taking an hour talking to the counter rep about some stupid $100 digital still camera! Goofball central!
Re: PROMAX out of business? by Rennie Klymyk on May 7, 2008 at 8:26:49 am
I remember when VFX in Vancouver closed it's doors. Back then (before FCP) systems had to be bought through a dealer who brought all the components together, computer, input card and software and extensively tested the system until they got most the bugs out. This could take about 8 months to do and then they sold it and backed it up. Problem was within 8 months the sw or something would change again big time and they would be caught with inventory. I think any business that stocks inventory is in for a rough ride and this is nothing new.
Even shopping at the Apple dealer one has to appreciate that they stock inventory. Why would you buy from the Apple Store on line when your local dealer has the same prices? I always ask my salesmen "are you on a commission here"? These individuals need to receive their commissions to get by so it's good to make sure you buy through the salesperson who originally helped you with a product when you finally buy.
I bought my 1st. Firmtek HDD set up directly from Firmtek and I think I'd read about them on the cow. The next time I bought a set I found out there was a local computer dealer who advertised Firmtek so I called and ordered through them. I had to wait for them to order it, get it in and then call me. They didn't want me to come and get it because they ran a warehouse more than a store front and they wanted to mail it to me. I didn't want to wait any longer and persuaded them to let me pick it up and I ended up paying an extra $120.00 for the set up. It's nice to try to support the local businesses but it's hard.
There never has been a Pro VAR in the city where I live and work but if we had a Promax here I would sorely miss them.
"motherless children have a hard time" ......Steve Miller
Re: PROMAX out of business? NOT YET by Sava Malachowski on May 7, 2008 at 5:00:10 pm
Last Monday, I ordered a drive from Promax and according to the FedEx tracking system it is scheduled to arrive today. I called Promax and spoke with someone in the sales department who said that the company has been going through restructuring and some people left, but they are still open for business. Lets be careful with pronouncing their demise. Promax has been a good and important company in our business and I hope that they can survive. They need our support!
Re: PROMAX out of business? NOT YET by Ron Lindeboom on May 7, 2008 at 9:49:23 pm
I just now got off the phone with Dan Hatch the president of Promax. He told me that they are "winding down the company and it will be closing."
He cited many factors for the reason behind the closure of Promax and I told him that Kathlyn and I were very sorry to see the closure of such a venerable company as Promax. Other parts of the conversation will remain private.
But the fact is, Promax will be closing its doors and Dan told me he has already found most all of the company's employees jobs with other companies in the industry and outside it. That was his greatest concern and is the area where he has been placing most of his focus in the last week or two.
So that is the news and these are facts, not opinions, drawn from the president of Promax himself.
It simply works better... by David Roth Weiss on May 8, 2008 at 12:57:09 am
I hate to sound like a preacher, but jeeze, let's all be thankful for what we've got...
The economy, the war, oil at $125, the democratization of video, and the availability of free information all play a part in the overall scheme of things that has brought about the demise of Promax and companies like it, but let's not forget, the landscape of digital technology and how we acquire it has changed and is changing even more today because of one simple fact, it simply works better.
We have hard drives that are fast and hardly fail, that have dropped in price by 25,000 per cent. We have consumer HD cameras for $500 and superb professional models for $5000. And there are excellent 42" plasma monitors for well under a grand that were $4500 just a few years ago.
Sure, the bad news is, anybody can afford all of this and anybody get into this business. But, the good news is, anybody can afford all of this and anybody can get into ths business. Its all there for you and it all works, so just be sure to make good use of it and you'll be fine.
David
David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™
A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, and Indie Film & Documentary forums.
Re: It simply works better... by Nate Stephens on May 8, 2008 at 2:24:28 am
"so just be sure to make good use of it "
Anybody want to make a slasher, zombie, bloody cleavage B flick epic.... and when we sell it for big bucks everybody will be rich.........
Sorry David, I just could not resist..... cause you are right... We have the best of all worlds right now in the video world.... and wouldn't it be great if we walked away from the bloody cleavage and scaring the women ...... and just taught the world to sing... or maybe plant a garden.... or maybe to stop a war.....
There is a lot of work out there guys,, pick your topic carefully and only do the best work no matter what the pay is...... cause we can change the world, one frame at a time...
Re: It simply works better... by David Roth Weiss on May 8, 2008 at 2:28:47 am
[Nate Stephens]"There is a lot of work out there guys,, pick your topic carefully and only do the best work no matter what the pay is...... cause we can change the world, one frame at a time..."
Awesome Nate, I'm glad somebody agrees with me on this one. Its an important and oft overlooked concept.
David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™
A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, and Indie Film & Documentary forums.
Re: It simply works better... by Mark Suszko on May 8, 2008 at 3:38:49 am
So, is there any consensus as to what the future holds for VARS, or what they must do to survive? The simple answer is, of course, "make money". But how?
Somebody else mentioned the concept of gold miners running out of mineable veins, and I didn't really agree with that characterization. In a gold rush like '49, the ones that make a real fortune are the guys selling the shovels and other necessary supplies, not most miners. Levi Strauss didn't make his money on gold, but on pants for miners. VARs sell us our shovels, which we use to dig for the gold (or to at least pile the manure into more creatively tasteful arrangements).
But what happens when anybody can have a shovel, just by snapping their fingers?
If I wanted to start up today as a VAR, I think the first thing I'd do is ask somebody to talk me out of it. Having a bricks and mortar store full of inventory today is very expensive, when competitors just have a boiler room somewhere from which they direct drop-shipments from a factory. Or you just buy direct from the factory! Repairs and service? All outsourced these days, for the most part. Product knowledge and added value? Still a selling point, but yes, certainly a lot of people get more of their questiones answered online these days before they go person-to-person, as opposed to a decade ago, when your main sources were magazines and "sales engineers". You used to HAVE to go create a personal relationship with a dealer as well as a local user club, just to get a functioning rig. Today, you can google up some specs or reviews in seconds.
Not all of the free information they get from various internet sources today is complete or accurate, of course, ( and of course, the information here at the COW is generally superior) but people treasure speed, convenience and "free" stuff above all. Margins have got to be pretty tight these days for selling hardware. Means you have to move a LOT of product to make a LITTLE profit, but getting into volume sales is a very expensive game, no matter what the product; you have to risk a large investment just to begin.
I see a parallel to one of my hobbies, RC model airplanes. Finding a good local hobby shop is getting very tough; it's dominated by warehouse internet sales. You used to have a local guy who was also in the local club, stocked all the necessaries in the shop, would let you open up the new kit boxes and peek inside, or fix your engine, advise you on how to set up the radio, help you build a wing even.
He also covered the gamut: gas planes, electric planes, gliders, jets, scale, pattern, helicopters, boats, trains, all the paints and accessory doo-dads too. Plus all the raw materials, balsa wood, glues, etc to build from scratch if you wanted to.
Nowadays, it's mostly three huge, ginourmous warehouse catalog stores that dominate the national hobby business. Even as pure catalog mail-order, they had been killing the local guy's business for well over 2 decades when the internet came along... and that was all she wrote. The net DOES allow a few craftsmen to set up viable little specialty operations in niche markets within the hobby, where they measure sales of one or two things they make in hundreds of units per year, not thousands. Some of these artisan sellers can command a large price, at low volume, for something like a custom-built scale model with retract gears and a real jet engine. If you can wait months for delivery.
But the big-well-stocked local hobby shop is rare as shade in a dessert these days. What's left of them generally carry a very limited inventory, cater to only the widest demographic, no longer have expert staff, and limit their inventory and expenses to the bone, just to keep the lights on.
Doesn't matter how much you love it; I saw four different airplane club members all think to themselves: "Hey, I can make my hobby into my BUSINESS!" by takingove rthe local, failing hobby store. They all found out in sequential order, they no longer had time or money to fly their own planes, every spare minute and dollar was tied up in the under-capitalized shop (home life suffered too). Flying buddies from the club would come in and look over a new model kits on consignment inventory with the shrink-wrap off... then go home and mail order it from the big catalog house to save ten to fifty bucks over the local guy's best price, including 48-hour shipping. At the most they'd buy a gallon of gas and a spare prop for a buck or two. None of the shop owners could make a dime under such conditions.
Does that sound like our video VAR business, anyone? I hope it doesn't go the same way.
But trends seem to point in that direction, sooner or later. As gear gets better yet cheaper and easier to use, the vise will tighten further.
The answers may be in mergers; getting ginourmous, the size of a B&H perhaps, so you can get economies of scale or market dominance... or to become micro-sized artisan enclaves, fine Swiss watchmakers.
Everybody else gets a Bulova or Timex at the Walgreens.
Re: It simply works better... by Perry Lawrence on May 8, 2008 at 1:13:22 pm
"So, is there any consensus as to what the future holds for VARS, or what they must do to survive? The simple answer is, of course, "make money". But how? "
VALUE ADDED RESELLER - As technology becomes better and more accessible, it really becomes harder to Add Value. Anyone can buy a Mac and FCS and be up and running in a day. You no longer need help with that.
Forums like this and others take the next logical step and teach folks how to actually "do" it.
But I've been "doing" it for 20+ years and the experience of working with clients has to be learned in "real time" - there is no substitute.
Back to the question - VARS, or what they must do to survive? Find another way to add value. Integration is no longer an option. Options include training and - um... training.
Had ProMax diversified into more training they may have survived. Who knows. We all know that integration is no longer a "big margin" value.
It's not the gas or the economy people - it's the long tail of eCommerce and the availability or great info (this site being one source).
Sheesh - Bjork's newest video was created in 3D by kids who "learned how to do it on the internet".
It is sad to see a friend choose to close their business no matter what the reasons.
Re: It simply works better... by Ron Lindeboom on May 8, 2008 at 2:57:46 pm
[Perry Lawrence]"But I've been "doing" it for 20+ years and the experience of working with clients has to be learned in "real time" - there is no substitute."
While part of the process of working with clients is indeed an art, much of it is a science and learning the science takes care of many of the steps. Finessing the art portion in real-time becomes much easier when you have the foundation of the scientific portion built.
That is why we have the Business & Marketing forum here at the COW. I call it the money forum and I can't tell you the number of letters I have gotten over the years from people who have found it and have begun to use it and can't believe what a treasure trove of ideas and answers it is. It's the COW's secret weapon, although it is getting to the point where it isn't so secret anymore.
Artists are still businesspeople and must learn that side of the business or they won't be in a creative business long -- unless they work for someone else who does know business.
In the end, business climates change and Promax is now the latest victim of the rapidly changing market.
Re: It simply works better... by Arnie Schlissel on May 8, 2008 at 3:39:17 am
I have to agree with David. When you can put together a system for $20K-$30K that will edit, create graphics & VFX, mix and color grade 2k and has 8TB of storage, well that really is democratizing.
And yes, that does mean that a lot of people who don't know what they're doing or how to tell a story will try their hand at it, but it also means that smaller shops can compete with some of the majors. Or that some of us can choose to be indies rather than on staff at giant facilities.
Arnie
Now in post: Peristroika, a film by Slava Tsukerman
Re: It simply works better... by walter biscardi on May 8, 2008 at 11:34:32 am
[Arnie Schlissel]"And yes, that does mean that a lot of people who don't know what they're doing or how to tell a story will try their hand at it, but it also means that smaller shops can compete with some of the majors."
It also means a lot of people who have absolutely no clue how to actually assemble and operate that FCP system will be whining when that system doesn't perform correctly. "I thought FCP was so much better than Avid and Premeire, but it sucks because it doesn't do anything in realtime." Because they didn't set up their system correctly or they have no clue what they are doing with that system. Then they come on here and whine because we need to hold their hands and help them for about 200 posts before they finally figure out how to properly set up their system.
That's where a VAR comes in and that's why I always recommend a VAR to someone who is purchasing their first system or about to integrate multiple systems into a SAN. Sure, anyone can build a system, install their own parts and accessories, but when something goes wrong, a company like ProMax included 1 year of free tech support with their system installs. And that was pretty much everything, System Questions, FCP Questions, After Effects, questions, etc.... They answered it all.
They also would set up and run your system for 24 hours before shipping it to you to ensure that everything operated correctly BEFORE you received it. This is pretty much standard operating procedure for VAR's. If you don't think this service is worth an extra $1,000 - $2,500, well that's your perogative, but I will definitely miss ProMax and their knowledge. When it comes down to the point where there are no VAR's left and it's every man for himself, then it will get interesting with new folks trying to join into the industry.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: It simply works better... by Arnie Schlissel on May 8, 2008 at 3:18:55 pm
[walter biscardi]"It also means a lot of people who have absolutely no clue how to actually assemble and operate that FCP system will be whining when that system doesn't perform correctly. "I thought FCP was so much better than Avid and Premeire, but it sucks because it doesn't do anything in realtime." Because they didn't set up their system correctly or they have no clue what they are doing with that system. Then they come on here and whine because we need to hold their hands and help them for about 200 posts before they finally figure out how to properly set up their system. "
I agree 100%. For these people, it doesn't matter how much or how little the system costs, they simply don't have the technical skills or talent to make it work. And a VAR can be a big help in getting them up & running, even if they still don't have the talent.
For someone like me, a VAR is much less of a necessity. And there really aren't any good FCP VARs here in NYC, anyway. I already know as much about configuring FCP & making it run properly as TekServ & B&H do. If I needed a SAN, or an Avid, then there are some really good VARs here to help you.
OTOH, if we did have a good VAR for FCP, someone who'd offer demos, training, and good quality advice in the areas where I really need it, I'd probably buy from them.
Arnie
Now in post: Peristroika, a film by Slava Tsukerman
Re: It simply works better... by Russell Lasson on May 8, 2008 at 2:42:53 pm
I don't have a lot of time, so forgive me is someone already mentioned this, but you forgot to add 4K cameras and free $25K color grading software with FCS2!!! Both very cool!
Re: It simply works better... by KC Allen on Jun 5, 2008 at 12:41:14 am
I LOVE that!! Man, you hit the nail on the head. It's awesome that more people can do this. If you're afraid of your competition, it means you're doing something wrong, and the competition is doing something right. Otherwise your clientele would never consider leaving you. Take WalMart. Many communities are ticked off that they're here. Business Week even did an article about people who thought that WalMart was too big. Businesses who say they can't compete are sometimes using the wrong word...the fact is that they WON'T compete by offering great sales, advertising well, cutting non-essential staff (like Mom who really doesn't even work there anymore) and having a little guts. Sometimes their protests are based on not an inability to compete, but a lack of willingness to compete because it means a change in the way things are.
We can welcome new competition because it forces us to sharpen our saw, which makes us better lumberjacks in the long run anyway.
KC Allen
Allen Film & Video
"Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows?"
I killed Promax by Arnie Schlissel on May 8, 2008 at 3:46:59 am
That's right. I confess. It was me.
I installed my own RAM, drive & Kona card, upgraded my own graphics card, and built my own RAID. Heck, I even build my own FW drives now. And I speck & price out all of this stuff, too.
In this new world where anyone with a Phillips head screwdriver & an anti-static wristband can build their own supercomputer, anyone who wants to read a computer manual can do this.
So, yes, it's my fault. Me and the geeks like me who aren't afraid to know how our stuff works.
Arnie
Now in post: Peristroika, a film by Slava Tsukerman
Re: I killed Promax by Rennie Klymyk on May 8, 2008 at 6:46:04 am
[Arnie Schlissel]"I killed Promax "
Don't worry Arnie, it's legal to kill a company. Mergers, acquisitions and hostile take overs are all legal too. We've all seen a lot of this going on in the last decade. Any of the big companies around all have a score of these maneuvers under their belts. It's eat or be eaten. Eventually one syndicate will own everything. Your credit card gives you air miles with the airline they are merged with and they give you quirks on accommodation at the hotel chain in their consortium.
The little independent mom and pops have a hard time.
A single independent business will always have a difficult time succeeding. I can walk out my door and down the block and pass The Gap, Polo Ralph Lauren, MacDonalds, Walmart etc etc but do they ever phone me and ask for a quote for an ad campaign? NOT! they do all this through their corporate headquarters in NY, Paris or Milan. The local store generates some revenue that stimulates the local economy a bit and provides a few jobs but all the profits go back to the head office. Multi-national corporations are sponges that soak up cash and funnel it directly out of the small towns and back to the head office in another country somewhere. When they advertise they get great deals because they purchase advertising on a national level at bargain prices. They pay about the same for the back page of the tv guide as a local pays for 1/8 page ad inside. When you are in my town visiting and see their ad you go home and buy it. When you happen to see the little independent's ad inside and go home you will not be able to buy his stuff because he only has one location so he's paying top dollar to reach only his local customer base.
Thankfully there are grass roots movements that advocate shopping at local markets and stands because these conglomerates are flying in our produce (fed on who knows what and who cares anyway as long as it weighs a lot) in jetliners from 1/2 way around the world burning precocious fuel and polluting the air along the way. You have to ask yourself "what is the price for all this success"?
"motherless children have a hard time" ......Steve Miller
Hard Facts by Nate Stephens on May 8, 2008 at 1:06:22 pm
" (or to at least pile the manure into more creatively tasteful arrangements)."
This is all man and women have done since we learned to stand on two feet. Nothing is new. VARs will survive just like your backyard garage mechanic. The insurance salesman has the same problems.
I always tell people that "I reupholster corporate messages" think about it.. Just new fabric on the same old work harder - better message... duh..
And when you are cursing the big multi-nationals and the internet and the computer,, just ponder where you would be today if the computer revolution did not happen.. Can you imagine what inflation would have been for the last 20 years.....
I do independent insurance agency Tv spots, some of these agencies you visit are all empty desks, (lots of empty desks) where all the old staff has not been replaced when they retired... because of the 'economies of the computer"
but one I visited recently had all their desks filled with young people and the just retired founder of the agency was there, so I asked him his secret....his answer "you got to shake a lot of hands" "belong to every club and participate in your community" It takes 5 years in the insurance biz before you make any money,, and that is if you are working 70 hours a week.. (still want to change jobs)
On interviewing a bunch of life insurance guys, we asked them their secret to success, the answer was "dial faster" (for the new guys, that is to make more phone calls)
So quit crying about VARS, they will always be out there somewhere. Quit crying about the new guys who post stupid questions on the COW, cause that is why we have a MASTHEAD of all those sculpted faces on our bow,,, "to take all the spray from those new waves" and personally I think it is fun to put a hot cinder in the new guys pocket every now and then.
And thank you COW for you are a lot more fun to read with my morning coffee than the local newspaper (but I still get it everyday, I don't want to be blamed for killing print)...
Now quit crying and start "dialing faster"
after all it is just the yin and yang of this dance we call life..
Re: Hard Facts by Winston A. Cely on May 8, 2008 at 2:22:17 pm
[Nate Stephens]"Quit crying about the new guys who post stupid questions on the COW"
I agree, but I think to help facilitate that we need a FAQ sticky at the top of the FCP Cow page directing new users to post their questions in the FCP Basics forum - along with the top 10 to 15 FAQs that get asked all the time. I think this would cut down on the clutter a bit, let those of us (like me) who are intermediate users help the "noobs" and the forum leaders concentrate on the tougher/more experienced questions and posters.
Winston A. Cely
Editor/Owner | Della St. Media, LLC
"If God could do the tricks we can do, He'd be a happy Man." - Peter O'Toole - "The Stuntman"
Mac Pro 3GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon
4 GB RAM | Final Cut Studio 5.1.4 | Aja Kona LHe
Re: I killed Promax by Ryan Mast on May 9, 2008 at 12:40:32 am
So Arnie, have you gotten any side business building systems for other companies? If there aren't any local VARs like ProMax (God rest its soul), do you think it would be a good extra source of income?
On the one hand, it could be seen as a conflict of interest, equipping your competitors, but as someone else said once on the COW, don't compete with the gold miners, sell the gold miners their tools... Any one have any experience with this?
Re: I killed Promax by Matt Kerstein on May 17, 2008 at 1:33:57 am
It was a service...A DAMN GOOD one...I liked unwrapping all the boxes like it was Channukah..plugging it in and bam..I was editing in less then a hour..Did it Three times with Promax..let me know who the next "GOTO" turnkey solution is..We'llneed another soon,
Matt kerstein
Paradise TV Network
Lahaina Maui, HI
www.mkkmedia.com
Re: PROMAX out of business? by Brent Altomare on May 8, 2008 at 3:02:17 pm
I think for VARs to survive, they need to ADD VALUE. At the end of last year, I made a 6-figure purchase from ProMax and while their support during the sale was excellent (with lots of back-and-forth, making sure I got the systems that would work for my business), I was pretty sorely disappointed with the support after the sale. I felt pretty abandoned once the system was installed. I had several nagging issues (a speaker that arrived bad, some minor permissions problems on the SAN, and a couple other punch-list things that never got completed during the installation). I was turned over to another integrator and had to pay to have those issues resolved (even though in my mind theses all fell under "making it work").
I don't know if my experience was typical, or if I fell victim to the death throes of the company, but I was left with a pretty bad taste in my mouth. I felt like I could have gone to Apple, DigiDesign, Brocade, etc myself, perhaps gotten a slightly better price, and hired an integrator to put it all together. If this is how I felt after purchasing a relatively complicated and hefty system, I can't imagine how someone who was looking for a single FCP system might have felt.
The people at ProMax are (were) all very nice, and all very knowledgeable, but I'll say it again, VARs must add value to survive. Otherwise, all they're doing is selling commodities.
