Multiclips lose sync when reconnecting
by Jóhannes Tryggvason
on
Feb 14, 2008 at 11:33:32 am
Has anyone here tried sharing a multiclip sequence between two computers?
I´m teaching a class on multicamera editing and all of my students have copies of the exact same media, and when I send them a final cut project with synced angles all the multicam clips drift out of sync upon reconnect :-(
All normal sequences stay in sync, however. It appears that all nonacive angles in a multiclip drift out of sync but the active angle remains fine.
Re: Multiclips lose sync when reconnecting by Jóhannes Tryggvason on Feb 14, 2008 at 3:14:38 pm
No, my workaround so far has been to send each student the separate clips as well and make new multiclips from them on each machine. There are only 7 students in my class so this is doable...
Re: Multiclips lose sync when reconnecting by Jerry Hofmann on Feb 14, 2008 at 3:19:53 pm
You mean you've been NOT sending the original single media files? That probably won't work.. i.e. just sending them multiclips that have to reference files across a LAN is likely not supported.
Jerry
Apple Certified Trainer
Author: "Jerry Hofmann on Final Cut Pro 4" Click here
Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D
Re: Multiclips lose sync when reconnecting by Jóhannes Tryggvason on Feb 14, 2008 at 4:19:46 pm
no, everyone has their own separate copy of the same media. I´m sending them my project file that references files on my hard drive so that when they open the project all the media shows up offline. When they reconnect to their copy of the media on their separate hard drives the multiclips somehow slip out of sync. This has happened on every single machine :-(
Re: Multiclips lose sync when reconnecting by Herb Sevush on Feb 14, 2008 at 4:43:08 pm
Johannes -
I edit extensively with Multi-clips on two FCP systems in my office - frequently starting on one system and finishing on another. The problem you are reporting seems to happen about 1- 2% of the time when I do this. I know of no solution other than creating new multi-clips and re-creating the edited section. Multi-clips, once created, cannot be repaired. They also seem to be vulnerable to corruption. It seems to be worse if the clips are not identical in length and time-code, but even when they are this problem pops up.
Re: Multiclips lose sync when reconnecting by Eric June on Feb 14, 2008 at 5:58:21 pm
Johannes,
I have seen a similar problem when I simply move my files from one location to another, such as to a different folder or drive in my system and reconnect them. In my case, even the active angle loses synch.
I have a multi-cam project in which the SD footage was shot with 4 consumer cams, 3 Sonys and 1 JVC. Only the JVC footage loses synch. When I reconnect the JVC footage, I get warned that the DV Start/Stop values are not the same. After reconnecting, I can confirm in the browser that the DV Stop value is slightly different from what it was before moving the file.
A workaround I had in mind was to figure out where the DV Start/Stop attributes are stored by FCP for each file, then see if I can "poke" the correct values back in after reconnecting. Unfortunately, I don't know where those values are stored. Such a workaround might be possible for you as well(?).
My ATV, Skiing and Hang Gliding videos: http://GrizzlyGuy.TV
Re: Multiclips lose sync when reconnecting by Jasper McInerney on Mar 19, 2008 at 3:38:44 pm
Multiclips do not work and frequently lose sync. If you're trying to edit any sizable project, then forget it.
Problems occur if timecodes and in points are different, which on multicamera shoot is often the case.
Problem happens when you move, reconnect or otherwise change media, and on some projects it will happen on closing and opening FCP.
You'll also notice that the length of the multiclip is longer than it should be, possibly with black at the beginning or end.
I work for TV network that installed FCP in January, and after two months of trying to edit multicamera shoots, the official support people have finally admitted that there is indeed a problem with the FCP software. Apple have been informed...
Whether Apple can or will fix it is anyone's guess. They're not exactly known for being responsive to complaints.
If you use multiclips then forget it. The problem won't go away. We're on the verge of hiring some Avids just to cope with the backlog of work that we can't get done. So if it's cheesing you off, then complain to Apple, and maybe they'll do something about but I'm not holding my breath waiting.
Re: Multiclips lose sync when reconnecting by Herb Sevush on Mar 19, 2008 at 8:55:38 pm
Jasper -
I have cut close to 100 half hour broadcast episodes using FCP's multi-clip feature. While there are a few frustrating features overall I find FCP to be an excellent multi-cam editor. Now for your complaints.
Multiclips do not work and frequently lose sync. If you're trying to edit any sizable project, then forget it.
Are you talking about losing audio sync or losing sync between cameras? If your talking about audio then I am perplexed. I've cut 90 minute 5 camera multi-cam shows without any loss of audio sync. In fact I've never had an audio sync problem with multi-clips. As for sync between cameras - if a multi-clip is corrupted it will destroy the sync relationship between cameras - this is irregardless of the size of the project.
Problems occur if timecodes and in points are different, which on multicamera shoot is often the case.
Problems occur if you haven't set the clips up properly and you choose the wrong mode to sync them up with. If your various cameras don't have identical timecode then you have to set in-points to sync with. When done properly I've never had a problem. However if done improperly it cannot be fixed later, which is a problem.
Problem happens when you move, reconnect or otherwise change media, and on some projects it will happen on closing and opening FCP.
Yes to problems with reconnecting and moving media, but I've never had a problem with merely opening and closing FCP.
You'll also notice that the length of the multiclip is longer than it should be, possibly with black at the beginning or end.
Only with an improperly set up multi-clip.
I work for TV network that installed FCP in January, and after two months of trying to edit multicamera shoots, the official support people have finally admitted that there is indeed a problem with the FCP software. Apple have been informed...
I've been working constantly with FCP multi-cam's for the past 3 years and have not had your experience. There are issues with moving and reconnecting media, and its' frustrating that once a clip is set up it cannot be altered or repaired. But basically if you know how to use them you don't have these problems.
Re: Multiclips lose sync when reconnecting by Jasper McInerney on Mar 20, 2008 at 12:39:04 am
I repeat: Multiclips do not work properly.
Have a look on the internet forums - it's very easy to find people tearing their hair out in frustration. FCP 6 multiclip function is a dog!!!
If you are not having problems, then one of two things is happening: you have FCP version 5 (which has a whole different set of bugs), or you're not using timecode, or possibly all your clips have identical timecode.
The multiclips lose sync!!!! Believe me I'm a professional TV editor and this is not an isolated problem; it occurs in every one of the 15 edit suites recently installed*, under the supervision of the official FCP support techies. Hell, they can even repeat the problem with a sequence of their own. Just because you haven't had the problem, don't assume it doesn't exist. Apple know it exists, and they just haven't or çan't fix it. Their new FCP server is already 9 months overdue, so I'm assuming this is low on their list of priorities. They make much more cash from selling phones.
To reiterate:
If you sync (by inpoint) one or more cameras into a multiclip, then either disconnect and reconnect the media (or in some cases simply just close the project). Suddenly, one (or more) of the clips will shift time, and be completely out of sync. Often so badly that when you switch to that camera you will see black. But the angle is there, it's just moved OUT OF SYNC from the other cameras! You'll see that the multiclip length has grown, and possibly one or more of the clips has lots it's anamorphic attribute.
There are thousands of people out there wondering if they are doing something wrong. Swearing at the computer, and just wasting an inordinate number of hours trying to work something out, that JUST DOES NOT WORK.
If you are one of those people, let Apple know. Don't let the Apple zealots tell you that you're doing something wrong, because you aren't. Apple know it's a problem. Will they fix it?????
Who knows.
Jasper
*two power supply failures and a faulty monitor in a batch of 15! They don't make 'em like they used to.
Re: Multiclips lose sync when reconnecting by walter biscardi on Mar 20, 2008 at 12:53:45 am
[Jasper McInerney]"If you are not having problems, then one of two things is happening: you have FCP version 5 (which has a whole different set of bugs), or you're not using timecode, or possibly all your clips have identical timecode."
Ok, you did read the part about him doing broadcast work with multiclip. So that means Timecode was used. And he's using Time of Day TC. And he told you what to do if the TC is off.
[Jasper McInerney]"I repeat: Multiclips do not work properly.
Have a look on the internet forums - it's very easy to find people tearing their hair out in frustration. FCP 6 multiclip function is a dog!!!"
If you research this forum, you'll find that Herb has been offering great advice to folks on here for quite some time. He also has cut quite a few multiclip projects. If he says the feature works, then it does.
He also says if you work in the multiclip mode improperly, then it won't work correctly. Multiclip is not like a lot of functions in FCP where there are many ways to do the same thing. With Multiclip you must perform the proper workflow in order to get it to work correctly.
Look through his notes again, and see what you're doing that's different. Just because other forums are full of people who can't get it to work doesn't mean the feature itself doesn't work. It means there could be a lot of people out there who have not taken the time to properly educate themselves on how to use the multiclip workflow.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: Multiclips lose sync when reconnecting by Jasper McInerney on Mar 20, 2008 at 1:18:37 am
If he says the feature works, then it does.
Well, actually, no it doesn't. Repeat, if all clips have identical timecode (i.e. time of day), then you may not see this problem. That does not mean multiclip works! That means it will work for some people who only shoot this way. Clearly multiclip is supposed to work for cameras with different timecode!!!
Repeat: Multiclip does not work.
Just because other forums are full of people who can't get it to work doesn't mean the feature itself doesn't work. It means there could be a lot of people out there who have not taken the time to properly educate themselves on how to use the multiclip workflow.
Sigh. It's just a computer program, don't feel emotionally attached to it.
I'll say it again: Clips shift sync (by offset between inpoints and timecode). This is a repeatable bug and a sequence with this problem has been sent to Apple by the Apple certified support crew. It's not about workflow, it's about FCP not working properly.!!!! I know it, the twenty other editors know about it, and Apple know about it. You should tell them that it's all okay, I'm sure they'd like to know.
Whether they will do anything about it is anyone's guess. But it remains, multiclip is a dog!!!! If you have this problem, let them know; it is not you, it is the software.
Re: Multiclips lose sync when reconnecting by walter biscardi on Mar 20, 2008 at 1:47:40 am
[Jasper McInerney]"Repeat, if all clips have identical timecode (i.e. time of day), then you may not see this problem. That does not mean multiclip works!"
From Herb's original post:
If your various cameras don't have identical timecode then you have to set in-points to sync with. When done properly I've never had a problem. However if done improperly it cannot be fixed later, which is a problem.
That sounds to me like it works with or without matching timecode. It also sounds like if you set up your project incorrectly, you cannot fix it later.
I'll repeat, it sure sounds like multiclip works as long as the operator understands how to set up their project correctly.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: Multiclips lose sync when reconnecting by Herb Sevush on Mar 20, 2008 at 2:09:17 pm
Walter -
I'm sorry I was off-line for awhile and missed this exchange. Walter, thank you for the compliments but now that I understand exactly what Jasper is complaining about I will have to offer some caveats.
I do almost nothing but multi-cam editing, and have for the last 8 to 10 years, but the overwhelming majority of my work is with matched time-code cameras. I have worked with in-points on FCP and have not had these problems, but I don't do it that often, so I don't feel comfortable telling someone that he's not having the problems he is having.
Jasper - when making multi-clips with in-points are you using master clips or sub-clips? Also are you sure you haven't seperately used the same source clip and thereby changed the in-point reference? These would be the first 2 things i would test when trying to figure out why the multi-clips were not functioning. Also I will say the a sure way to get corrupted multi-clips is to use a clip that has time-code breaks within it - something that shouldn't happen, but that actually happens all to easily in FCP.
Finally I can offer this work around, change the AUX time-code on the clips and sync with them. FCP makes it incredibly easy to change the time-code on a captured clip, and that includes 2 optional AUX time code tracks that are available for each clip. Find a sync point on each of the clips that you want to use in a multi-clip, go to Modify / Time Code - check the AUX TC 1 box and enter a common time code in the window - I would recommend that this time code be a copy of the actual time code of your most important clip, but anything will do - and then when making a multi-clip choose to Sync with Aux 1. (just don't uncheck the box containing your source time-code or you'll loose it - leave both boxes checked) - this extra step does not take long and should alleviate your problems.
Re: Multiclips lose sync when reconnecting by Allen Kaufman on May 24, 2008 at 4:04:33 pm
I've only recently begun to use the multi-clip editing feature in FCP (v6). Occasionally I've had to collapse a cut multiclip to it's source and use the slip tool to pull a clip back into sync with the audio on one of the cameras (and leave the one collapsed)
So far, the only footage I've had to work with has been with sync'd IN points against a clap. In 24p, it's tough because the audio/connect of clapper from cam to cam will vary. So... that's been my workaround.
A more serious issue for me has been that so far every exported-to-Compressor multiclip project has resulted in extreme interlace/streaking artifacts. Anyone else suffering the same?
I've had to export a lossless quicktime (PNG) movie first, then drag it into Compressor independent of FCP as a workaround.
AK
Allen Kaufman
Sunlight Digital - media with meaning
www.sunlightdigital.com
Re: Multiclips lose sync when reconnecting by Herb Sevush on May 24, 2008 at 5:29:36 pm
Allen -
A more serious issue for me has been that so far every exported-to-Compressor multiclip project has resulted in extreme interlace/streaking artifacts. Anyone else suffering the same?
Absolutely not. There is nothing in the multi-cam setup that would cause this. Given all the problems you seem to be having with loss of audio sync and this export problem I would have to suspect something is "off" with the clips you have captured, or the FCP project file may be corrupted.
I would also highly recommend that you upgrade to FCP version 6.03 if you haven't already. It has fixed the type of sync issues that started this thread.
Re: Multiclips lose sync when reconnecting by Allen Kaufman on May 24, 2008 at 7:38:27 pm
Thanks for the response..
My audio sync issues aside (that's just because my best sync source is a hand-clap at 24p from the production crew rather than timecode synced cameras - so I'm multiclip'd via IN points with a less-than-accurate source between each camera). It's not a severe problem.. just a pain.
Back to the "serious issue" at hand...
however this (visual smearing/interlace-looking bands & artifacts) has been happening across more than one project - whenever exported directly through Compressor from a multiclip-based sequence. I am working in v6.03.
Ever since Final Cut Studio 2 - there have been discrepancies between FCP and direct export to Compressor that have slowly been improving. This banding issue is a real fly in the ointment this time around.
Allen Kaufman
Sunlight Digital - media with meaning
www.sunlightdigital.com
Re: Multiclips lose sync when reconnecting by Herb Sevush on May 24, 2008 at 9:08:13 pm
Allen -
Do you mean to say you are having these compressor problems ONLY when exporting direct from a multi-clip sequence - or is this happening when exporting from FCP in general?
Re: Multiclips lose sync when reconnecting by Nga Nguyen on Jun 13, 2008 at 4:15:08 pm
Hey,
I have a work around for that. The reconnecting issue is annoying. At my work we have to transfer media/project all the time. So multi-clips becoming out of sync is a problem.
You can email me at nganguyen21@hotmail.com and I can give you a run thur.
