I would REALLY like to get out of the business of configuring a new hi-def system for my studio, which is taking all my time right now, and get back into the business of production. But I want to make the right decisions, especially given all the money I'm spending.
My little question: In considering arrays, how much should I care whether the disk interface is SAS versus SATA? I'm looking at the Dulce Pro DQ and it is SATA. I guess SAS is the latest and greatest but is it worth another $1,000 on the pricetag?
Re: SATA/SAS by walter biscardi on Dec 29, 2007 at 12:21:06 pm
[Lee McEachern]"My little question: In considering arrays, how much should I care whether the disk interface is SAS versus SATA? I'm looking at the Dulce Pro DQ and it is SATA. I guess SAS is the latest and greatest but is it worth another $1,000 on the pricetag?"
SAS is definitely faster than any of our SATA arrays and all the high end arrays we tested all use the SAS connections. It's still SATA, but instead of a little plug that can sometimes be ornery to plug in or remove, it's a much larger connection to both the system and the array that screws in tight. I much prefer the SAS connections on our MaxxDigital / Atto R380 card to the small SATA connection on all our other SATA arrays. They're solid and not really prone to being damaged by any bumps to the cables.
I know the R380 card is much much faster than the LaCie or CalDigit SATA cards we've used in the past.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: SATA/SAS by Arnie Schlissel on Dec 29, 2007 at 4:16:12 pm
OK, Lee, just when you thought you might find some clarity, I hope I'm not going to muddy up the waters for you.
SAS drives are available with spindle speeds of 10k RPM and even 15k RPM. All the 3gb/second SATA II drives are 7200 RPM. The only 10k RPM SATA drives are the WD Raptors, which are SATA I, 1.5 gb/s.
SAS drives top out in the 300-350 GB range. the WD Raptor tops out at 150GB. SATA II drives are currently available up to 1 TB. Expect 2TB SATA II drives in maybe 18 months.
It's not just that the SAS drives cost more, you can also get 3X as much storage on a single SATA drive. IOW, you can put more footage on fewer drives for less money.
And if you need more speed from the array, it's less expensive to add more drive spindles to it (storing still more footage!) to make up for the speed difference of the SAS drives.
From that point of view, the trade off of drive speed vs cost can easily be made to work in your favor.
If it were my money, I'd be buying 1TB Seagate or Hitachi SATA II drives, and putting them in an enclosure with SAS connectors tied to the ATTO or maybe an Areca SAS controller.
Arnie
Now in post: Peristroika, a film by Slava Tsukerman
Re: SATA/SAS by Lee McEachern on Dec 29, 2007 at 6:45:14 pm
Hi Nate,
That sounds like a success. Good on ya' (as the Aussies say).
Would you mind posting here again to list the components you used? And if you have any specs on the performance you're getting I'd be really interested in that.
Enhance Technologies E8-ML enclosure
Highpoint RocketRAID 2322 SAS card
SAS to Infiniband cables
I got the enclosure at dvwarehouse.com (It's a little hard to find), the card, cables and drives from newegg.com
I get about 480MB/sec read/write when empty, right now it's about 2/3rds full and I'm getting 380 write and 430 read. I'm sure that could be a bit better if I would have chosen my drives based on benchmarked speeds rather than price!
I think Walter has a bunch of these setups at his place as well.
Re: SATA/SAS by walter biscardi on Dec 29, 2007 at 8:25:04 pm
[Nate Weaver]"
I think Walter has a bunch of these setups at his place as well."
Nope, all our stuff was purchased via MaxxDigital. We don't ever build our own arrays as I'm not going to take on my own tech support. I much prefer having Atto and Maxx taking care of any issues so I don't have to deal with it.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: SATA/SAS by Aaron zander on Dec 29, 2007 at 10:54:23 pm
just an fyi, if you have oodles of cash spilling out and you want THE fastest set up possible, and I do mean fastest, faster than fiber, faster than sas, go with the sata array here.
Re: SATA/SAS by Nate Weaver on Dec 31, 2007 at 4:50:01 am
Agreed. I generally do not have the time either, especially at the moment with 3 big projects live at the moment.
I think I ordered the parts with the thought, "at the first sign of trouble, return it all and buy a G-Tech eSpeed". After all, I haven't had to do uncompressed 1080p24 since last year, and now I have ProRes.
Anyway, it's been two months and not a single issue. So score one for DIY approach.
[Arnie Schlissel]"If it were my money, I'd be buying 1TB Seagate or Hitachi SATA II drives, and putting them in an enclosure with SAS connectors tied to the ATTO or maybe an Areca SAS controller."
Arnie,
If you're buying I'm ready for either of those controllers. But I got a feeling you're all Schlissel and no steak...
David
David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™
A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing, and Indie Film & Documentary forums.
Re: SATA/SAS by Andrew Yates on Dec 29, 2007 at 11:56:19 pm
I too am making some last minute end of year purchases. I'd like to go with the Maxxdigital 8TB raid, but I don't believe I could add additional towers to it later. Is this not a problem for those of you using this system?
Re: SATA/SAS by walter biscardi on Dec 30, 2007 at 2:53:35 am
[Andrew Yates]"I'd like to go with the Maxxdigital 8TB raid, but I don't believe I could add additional towers to it later. Is this not a problem for those of you using this system?"
Sure you can. You can stripe two of these units together to get insane speeds.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: SATA/SAS by Andrew Yates on Dec 30, 2007 at 7:50:03 am
[walter biscardi]"You can stripe two of these units together to get insane speeds."
Great news! Do you know of a link showing how difficult it would be to connect and stripe 2 towers? This technology is completely new to me and the maxxdigital website doesn't have a lot of info.
Re: SATA/SAS by walter biscardi on Dec 30, 2007 at 1:19:04 pm
[Andrew Yates]"Do you know of a link showing how difficult it would be to connect and stripe 2 towers? This technology is completely new to me and the maxxdigital website doesn't have a lot of info."
Just call them direct to discuss. I don't know of anyone who needs to stripe multiple 8TB SAS/SATA arrays so it's not something they would necessarily show on the website.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: SATA/SAS by Sean ONeil on Dec 30, 2007 at 4:26:22 am
[Arnie Schlissel]"SAS drives are available with spindle speeds of 10k RPM and even 15k RPM. All the 3gb/second SATA II drives are 7200 RPM. The only 10k RPM SATA drives are the WD Raptors, which are SATA I, 1.5 gb/s."
If you want 10k drives, the Raptor is fine. It still won't max out the 150MB/s SATA I bus.
15k drives are a bad choice IMO. They have small capacity and they're expensive. And they're not that much faster than the new crop of 7200rpm drives (750GB and larger) which use a new perpendicular recording technology that makes them 80MB/s per disk.
Also, flash memory based storage is creeping up on us. Technically you could have it now if you wanted to spend an incredible amount of money. It's just a matter of time before price and capacity improves to make it practical. A no-brainer for video production. Zero latency, high throughput, low heat (no fans), no mechanical noise, no moving parts (far less likely to go bad). I can't wait.
Re: SATA/SAS by Bob Zelin on Dec 30, 2007 at 3:52:25 pm
I don't often look at the FCP forum, as I answer storage questions on the AJA and Blackmagic forums mostly, but I want to stress one thing about this entire discussion.
EVERYTHING BECOMES OUTDATED QUICKLY. We used to use SCSI drives not that long ago, then Fibre (some still do). A quick switch to FW800, then to SATA, and now everyone is hot on SAS (which uses SATA drives).
SAS arrays are hot, because they are very fast (MUCH faster than an Apple XServe RAID for example, and a lot cheaper), and they are RAID protected (which means that if a drive fails, you don't lose your media). The current crop of SAS arrays that work in MAC computers use a single chassis, that typically holds 8 disk drives, giving you an 8TB maximum. Companies like Dulce Systems and Cal Digit are both coming out with port expander products that will allow for the addition of multiple chassis. In addition, companies like XStor make larger chassis that hold more than 8 drives (this works with the ATTO R380 card, and was demonstrated at NAB2007). But SAS port expansion will be the next "big thing".
The point is - ITS NOT OUT YET, but it's coming soon. So how do you plan for the future - YOU DONT. You buy what you need to make a living. In 3 years, ALL THIS STUFF WILL BE OUTDATED, and you will need new stuff to do 4K, 8K, and whatever else the demands are. And some moron will still write in and say "how come I can't record my 4K files on my MAC Book Pro's internal hard drive".
Currently, all the SAS products you see advertised on Creative Cow will handle uncompressed HD, and since most of you are doing less than this (like ProRes422HQ or DVCProHD), all of these products will work.
And will SOLID STATE STORAGE PRODUCTS take over - of course they will, and we will spend the next 15 years suffering thru this - 8Gig cards, 16 Gig cards, and it will grow and grow, and your INVESTMENT will go into the toilet with every increase in technology.
By the time 1TB solid state cards exist, Apple will no longer sell Final Cut Pro, and most of you will be working for McDonnalds anyway, so it won't make a difference. In the mean time, all these products work just fine. Buy from a RELIABLE DEALER THAT CAN HELP SUPPORT YOU, because if your not a "do it yourselfer" - you will fail.
Re: SATA/SAS by Lloyd Amborn on Dec 30, 2007 at 4:45:39 pm
Lee ,
Just remember SAS drives only go up to 400 gb per drive and SATA can go to 1000gb per drive.The fact is 5 SATA drives striped together can do over 225 MPS ,which is plenty for most folks.
