Concert film, surround sound design
by jayarthur
on
Dec 3, 2007 at 8:02:39 pm
I made a music doc/concert film which has 80 minutes of music and 30 minutes of talk, The format is very similar to "The Last Waltz." 2 minutes of story (interviews) followed by a 5 minute whole song. We did the film festival circuit with our first cut, which had a nice stereo mix. We also sold about 2400 copies. We are almost out of inventory and the next release is to be in 5.1 with additional bonus material. My sound engineer has been late in delivering my Dolby 5.1 mixes, and I have some basic questions about how to proceed once I get my 5.1 songs.
I am working in Final Cut Studio (FCP 5.1.4) on a G5 Quad.
I have 3 basic questions.
1. How do I incorporate these new 5.1 (song) mixes to my FCP timeline.
2. What do I need to do with my interview scenes to make the whole thing flow. I have discreet sfx tracks in the interview sections to mask some noise. (I am guessing I can assign some of this to the rear channels)
3. Once everything on the timeline is in 5.1, what are the implications for encoding for DVD?
I realize these are some very basic questions that may have lengthy answers, so pointing me to the right books or manual pages would be appreciated too.
Jay Curlee
Director/Executive Producer
Rocking the Boat: A Musical Conversation and Journey
www.rockingtheboatmovie.com
Re: Concert film, surround sound design by CharlieX on Dec 3, 2007 at 8:43:57 pm
You'll definitely want to read in the FCP manuals, but:
1) create a new timeline with 6 channels of discreet audio (under User Prefs, Audio outputs). Copy/Paste your video clips into this.
2) get 6 discreet mono aiff/waves from your audio mixer. So a Left Front, Right Front, LFE, etc....
3) these go into your timeline. Typically 1/2=front, 3=center, 4=subwoofer, 5/6=rear speakers
4) you're probably editing on a stereo only system? to hear channels beyond track 1/2, you'll need to use the Stero Mixdown switch in the Audio Mixer
5) edit away.
6) export each track as a discreet aiff and compressor can make a 5.1 dobly digital file from a "surround group" Look this up, it's pretty easy once you get the hang
IMHO, I would avoid trying to do anything fancy with your interviews. Just mix all that audio down and put it in the Center channel. I've heard that they typically mix 15-20% of the center channel into the Front's. But I'm not an audio mixer and prefer letting them do their magic instead of me.
Re: Concert film, surround sound design by jayarthur on Dec 3, 2007 at 9:39:30 pm
Charlie, thanks for your post. Understand that there is no more "editing" to do. I am just trying to get all my tracks in the right place so I can eventually make a DVD master for replication which has 5.1 sound.
Re: Concert film, surround sound design by David Roth Weiss on Dec 3, 2007 at 8:45:08 pm
[jayarthur]"1. How do I incorporate these new 5.1 (song) mixes to my FCP timeline."
You don't!!! The mixed 5.1 tracks should not be further edited in FCP. Do not proceed with a 5.1 mix until picture and sound are are locked, and once the 5.1 Dolby encoded surround mix is completed, the separate tracks provided by the mix facility should be considered as final elements.
At this point thay are ready to be imported (along with with your video) into Compressor through the "Add Surround Sound" module, which aids in assigning the tracks to their proper respective positions (see the tab at the upper left). Compressor will create a single AC3 audio file with all siz 5.1 tracks, which you will then import along with the m2v video track into DVDSP to author your DVD.
David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY™
A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing, and Indie Film & Documentary forums.
Re: Concert film, surround sound design by David Roth Weiss on Dec 3, 2007 at 9:10:12 pm
Forget what I wrote earlier, your 5.1 mixed tracks are not already Dolby encoded as I mentioned above, and they are indeed editable. Pardon me for doing two things at once...
Now back to reality...
The problem you will have is that you are unable to monitor surround and so your mix will be a guess. If I were you, I would certainly have a facility with surround capability put a surround mix on the doco parts of your film that are presently stereo on your FCP timeline.
David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY™
A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing, and Indie Film & Documentary forums.
Re: Concert film, surround sound design by jayarthur on Dec 3, 2007 at 9:32:50 pm
David and Charlie,
I was fearful that I was in so far over my head that I would not be able to ask good questions. This is apparently the case since I am no less confused than I was before.
I have been going on the theory that when I finally get my 5.1 song mixes from my engineeer, I would then drop them into my timeline and zap the stereo mixes out. My subsequent concern wwas how to incorporate the interviews into this sound design.
And regarding monitoring, am I going to have to just trust that the engineer did a great mix? I do trust him BTW. Without a surround sound system in my edit bay, can't I just monitor in stereo to make sure everything is lined up?
Re: Concert film, surround sound design by David Roth Weiss on Dec 4, 2007 at 12:24:47 am
Jay,
Here's the deal, let me make it simple...
Your mix facility is delivering six discreet mono tracks which comprise the surround mix for your concert sequences. I'm sure they'll be just great, and you just need to trust them anyway, because you have no way of monitoring the mix accurately in FCP anyway. You can just edit in those six tracks to replace the existing stereo music tracks. Later you will use the module in Compressor that I mentioned to assign the tracks to their rightful channels.
Now, what about the stereo documentary interviews??? You have two choices, leave them as stereo, or bring them to a mix facility to have them mixed in surround. Its not going to be horrible to leave them as stereo, because there's not a whole lot of tricky surround stuff that gets added to most interviews anyway, however light ambience and sound effects are usually directed to the rear channels to make the room more lively and the mix more natural. Its a decision you'll have to make. Mixing the entire project in surround will cost more, but you will also know that you did everything in your power to give the project its best polish.
Hope this helps,
David
David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY™
A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing, and Indie Film & Documentary forums.
Re: Concert film, surround sound design by Michael G on Dec 4, 2007 at 5:45:17 am
I would be going to a sound post facility to mix 5.1 . FCP is not an audio finishing tool.
It has no surround pan control or multi channel dynamics processing or bass management software. If you wish to sync your 5.1 mixes up in FCP before making an OMFi to take to sound post then that is fine. Open six new tracks and lay the 5.1 mixes alongside the stereo. You might need twelve tracks to chequerboard the 5.1 mixes.
They should be delivered to you as six mono or three stereo wavs, broadcast wav or aif files. I don't know if FCP understands multichannel wavs or aiffs.
Re: Concert film, surround sound design by jayarthur on Dec 4, 2007 at 6:43:16 pm
I never intended to mix anything. I am actually interested in what to do when I get my mixes back from the audio post facility. Then the issue is how to encode it in compressor to get ready for DVD replication.
Thanks for all the help and keep it coming if you have time.
Re: Concert film, surround sound design by David Roth Weiss on Dec 4, 2007 at 6:48:37 pm
[jayarthur]"keep it coming if you have time"
You're on your way now... When it comes time to bring the 6 final tracks into Compressor come on back and I'll help you through the assigning of tracks if you need it.
David
David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY™
A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing, and Indie Film & Documentary forums.
Re: Concert film, surround sound design by jayarthur on Dec 4, 2007 at 8:08:45 pm
David, et al,
Regarding the interview segments of my movie, do you have any suggestions on how to design it for surround?
Half of my interview content was shot on a ship with heavy duty engine room rumble. I created a discreet sound effects track which emulated the sound of a concert going on outside the room where the interview was happening. (Most of the movie is shot on Delbert McClinton's Sandy Beaches Cruise, which has concerts going on from 11am until 4am, every day for 7 days)
Intuitively I would say that the concert sound efx would sound good if sent to the back channels.
I would also assume my timeline then would have 12 tracks, checkerboarded. (6 for song mixes and 6 for interviews)
Re: Concert film, surround sound design by David Roth Weiss on Dec 4, 2007 at 8:37:25 pm
Jay,
Just mix for stereo and bring the discrete channels to your local surround mix facility and let them give you suggestions. Typically, they will split sound effects to both front and rear in ways that sound natural and won't cancel each other out.
I don't recommend doing anything that calls too much attention to itself. Resist the temptation to suddenly have the chorus or an instrument blast from the rear surrounds. I heard an Eagle's surround mix that did just that. Besides scaring me half to death, and making me jump out of my seat, it was incredibly unrealistic. Had all the guys on stage suddenly run all the way to the back of the concert hall just to blast us with a new rendition of "Welcome To Hotel California."
David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY™
A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing, and Indie Film & Documentary forums.
Re: Concert film, surround sound design by Michael G on Dec 4, 2007 at 8:37:36 pm
Jay,
What I meant is that the whole sound track should be sound post produced and a final 5.1 mix produced. This included your interview dialog. From what you have described you are trying to integrate music 5.1 mixes with dialog that is in FCP. These elements also should be mixed on a sound DAW, EQed and dynamics compressed properly and de noised if neccessary.
I am recommending not using FCP. Your final 5.1 mix can go straight to compressor. No need to load anything in FCP.
Re: Concert film, surround sound design by jayarthur on Dec 7, 2007 at 5:32:04 am
Stu,
I am going to include a bit of "making of" material in the new release. The big hold-up for me right now is getting my 5.1 tracks from the sound engineer. I am down to about 30 copies at Filmbaby. It is the original cut and has a nice stereo mix. We actually sold about 2300 copies.
We had a pretty good run at film festivals, having gotten into 6. People laughed, cried, and applauded in all the right places and it was nice to see our work up on the big screen.
If you love Great American Roots Rock music you should order a copy of this release, while it is still in stock. I expect to be sold out in a week or so. Then it will be a couple of months before we get the next version out.
This was a labor of love project. Our money. As you know, you're not supposed to do that.
Re: Concert film, surround sound design by StuS57 on Dec 7, 2007 at 11:55:02 pm
Jay, was wondering if you'd consider doing an interview for an article on your production? You can drop me an e-mail off list at stu at verite-media dot com.
