Panasonic's 720p 23.98 - a fake format
by aaronowen
on
Feb 2, 2007 at 6:37:18 am
So DVCPro HD's 720p format running at 23.98 fps has been the bane of my existence lately because its not a real format. The ATSC spec says that all 720p material MUST run at either 59.94 or 60.00 progressive frames per second. Panasonic's varicam line of camcorders support a 23.98 fps format which add a pulldown cadence of 2:3:3:2 in order to achieve this. Systems like Final Cut Pro, Avid Media Composers and discreet's Smoke are able to recognize this format due to the metadata encoded by the camera to the tape. The systems are able to then remove the correct frames because this metadata is present.
My problems with dealing with projects in this format are this: I'm cutting offline in FCP then conforming the online in Smoke. All my source material is footage shot from the HDX900 in the 720p-23.98 format (no legacy material or mixed formats here). I've locked picture, output my edl or xml and have laid off the reference tape for the online editor (who also happens to be me). The problem is that I'm able to re-capture the edl from the original tapes because the metadata is present; the offline reference tape however apparently does NOT have this metadata because if I try to capture it in either smoke or FCP, I get the duplicate frames due to the pulldown cadence.
My question is this: how does one output from an edit system and keep this all important metadata in-tact??? This is a huge issue and I've not been able to find any info on it anywhere. Not only does it apply to the above situation, but say you master your show to DVCPro HD tape and then decide to edit it later. With my current tests I've found that without the metadata that tells these systems how to deal with the pulldown cadence your tape is fairly useless for anything but playback...
The one test that I've gotten to work is that the deck I'm using can upconvert the 720 23.98 to 1080 23.98psf. This basically takes the orig frames from the 720 format and adds normal 3:2 pulldown to get it to run at 1080 59.94i. The smoke can then recognize the normal 3:2 and remove it on input to give me a format that's supported by my sync generator.
If you have any useful insight to this issue I'd love to start this disussion. Anyone have friends at panasonic?
-aaron
using:
FCP 5.1.2
Panasonic AJ-HD1200 w/firewire I/O; have also used HDSDI via Decklink HD Pro
Quad 2.5gHz G5 w/4 GB RAM
OS 10.4.8
Re: Panasonic's 720p 23.98 - a fake format by walter biscardi on Feb 2, 2007 at 1:32:38 pm
[aaronowen]"My question is this: how does one output from an edit system and keep this all important metadata in-tact???"
From my understanding, you would need to master directly to an HDCAM or D5 deck in the 23.98 format to stay in that frame rate. I don't believe FCP can lay back a true 23.98 timeline to a DVCPro HD deck and have that deck record the flagged frames for extraction later.
I haven't had to do this as all of our masters are 59.94 for networks, but the only 23.98 Masters I've heard of have been mastered to D5.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters
Re: Panasonic's 720p 23.98 - a fake format by Shane Ross on Feb 2, 2007 at 4:07:24 pm
And I have only mastered from FCP at 23.98 and 59.94 to D5 and HDCAM...never output anything for onlining on another system using the DVCPRO HD format.
But I did edit a short film that was shot on 16mm, telecined to D5 at 23.98, dubbed to DVCAM at 29.97. I captured that tape, reverse telecined and edited at 23.98...then gave an EDL to the online colorist who did all the finishing work on a Flame. But that was true 23.98 tape...not the DVCPRO HD 59.94 with 23.98 flags.
Re: Panasonic's 720p 23.98 - a fake format by aaronowen on Feb 2, 2007 at 6:32:49 pm
[walter biscardi]"From my understanding, you would need to master directly to an HDCAM or D5 deck in the 23.98 format to stay in that frame rate. I don't believe FCP can lay back a true 23.98 timeline to a DVCPro HD deck and have that deck record the flagged frames for extraction later." If you were to master to either D5 or HDCAM, you would be either using the real 720p running at 59.94 with advanced pulldown or uprezing to 1080 running at 23.98psf. Neither are too attractive becuase with the 1080 option you are blowing up the picture and with the 720p@59.94 option you are inserting a pulldown cadence that's not easily removed.
Re: Panasonic's 720p 23.98 - a fake format by gary adcock on Feb 2, 2007 at 5:01:54 pm
[aaronowen]"the offline reference tape however apparently does NOT have this metadata because if I try to capture it in either smoke or FCP, I get the duplicate frames due to the pulldown cadence."
Duh. with your offline you have removed the metadata, how can you change formats and do an offline and expect to maintain the data's integrity.
"I get the duplicate frames due to the pulldown cadence." you do not have the ability to remove the redundant frames? since when?
You have any number of ways to output the files to achieve the 23.98. SInce you do not say how you outputted the "offline" back to tape, how are we supposed to understand.
"My question is this: how does one output from an edit system and keep this all important metadata in-tac" output via FW or using a Kona Card and Kona Tv - the HDSDI out of FCP does NOT support this, but there are tools that do. Sorry but your Decklink card does not support this type of functionality.
gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Re: Panasonic's 720p 23.98 - a fake format by aaronowen on Feb 2, 2007 at 6:17:18 pm
[gary adcock]"Duh. with your offline you have removed the metadata, how can you change formats and do an offline and expect to maintain the data's integrity." I'm not changing formats; I input the clips over firewire into FCP, cut my offline and then output to the same DVCPro HD tape via firewire. FCP did output the pulldown correctly, but did so without the metadata. I'm wondering if FCP has the ability to output the metadata and how this is done.
[gary adcock]"you do not have the ability to remove the redundant frames? since when?
You have any number of ways to output the files to achieve the 23.98. SInce you do not say how you outputted the "offline" back to tape, how are we supposed to understand." I should have been more clear when describing my tests. When I load the footage, I used firewire; when I output my offline for reference, I used firewire to goto DVCProHD 720p 23.98 tapes. What I meant by not being able to remove the redundant frames is that when I recapture the offline- either in smoke or final cut; both systems cannot recognize how to remove the pulldown because of the lack of metadata so I'm left with a clip running at 59.94 with pulldown. Panasonic's framerate converter cannot be used in this situation because the plugin requires the metadata to be present in order to know how to deal with the frames. This metadata was stripped off when I laid off my offline. This is why I'm asking exactly how to keep the metadata in-tact when outputting from FCP. You suggested firewire or the Kona; I wasn't able to get firewire to work and I'm wondering why. I'm not buying a kona just for this.
All my questions are theoretical becuase I'm currently testing the workflow and am finding major issues.
Re: Panasonic's 720p 23.98 - by gary adcock on Feb 2, 2007 at 7:29:48 pm
[aaronowen]" I output my offline for reference, I used firewire to goto DVCProHD 720p 23.98 tapes. What I meant by not being able to remove the redundant frames is that when I recapture the offline- either in smoke or final cut; both systems cannot recognize how to remove the pulldown"
you have never said what app versions you are running- and this is not something that can be done in previous versions of FCP or Smoke.
FCP 5.1 2 has the ability to properly flag 720p 23.98 DVCPROHD content back out over FW, IF the deck is set properly to accept the user bits and ancillary info.
"Panasonic's framerate converter cannot be used in this situation because the plugin requires the metadata to be present in order to know how to deal with the frames" Correct - the software FRC is primarily used for off-speed content not normally for simple cadence removal as most current NLEs respond correctly with 720p24 flags to remove the redundant frames on capture.
The current versions of Cinema Tools is quite capable of handling a reverse telecine on this material however.
gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Re: Panasonic's 720p 23.98 - by aaronowen on Feb 2, 2007 at 8:38:36 pm
[gary adcock]"you have never said what app versions you are running- and this is not something that can be done in previous versions of FCP or Smoke."
I'm running FCP 5.1.2 and Autodesk Smoke 2007.
[gary adcock]"FCP 5.1 2 has the ability to properly flag 720p 23.98 DVCPROHD content back out over FW, IF the deck is set properly to accept the user bits and ancillary info."
Where in FCP and/or what deck setting accomplishes this task? The I can't seem to find the info in the manual for the deck and I'm not sure where the option would be in FCP. There is a user bit that I can preset; bit it seems to be an aux TC track which is a place that can handle TOD code or some other pertinent time data such as sound TC or something. When you say ancillary info, where is this recorded?
[gary adcock]"The current versions of Cinema Tools is quite capable of handling a reverse telecine on this material however. "
Re: Panasonic's 720p 23.98 - by Matt Silverman on Feb 2, 2007 at 10:37:56 pm
Gary, I work with Aaron who posted the original question. I was the one who told him to jump on the cow and see if he can get any info. For you to respond to his question with "Duh.", is really quite lame. He had a very relevant question... "Duh" might be appropriate if someone asked if FCP can work on a Mac, and you were a 12 year old responding.
So to simplify his question and clarify some of your "answers":
We work a lot with clients who shoot DVCProHD 23.98. Typically these jobs are cut in FCP, with final delivery for digital signage, web, or projection at 23.98 (ie. we need to deliver a DVCProHD or P-JPEG QT 23.98 progressive). Sometimes these jobs need serious color correction and finishing, and we would like to do this CC in smoke. We have not found any solution to roundtrip footage out of a FCP 720p 23.98 timeline and into the smoke, then back into a QT on the Mac.
The reason for this problem is due to the fact that as Aaron pointed out the 720 spec only allows for 60fps or 59.94fps. When we are working D1 or 1080, we typically send shots back and forth from Mac to Smoke or Avid via Decklink SDI or HDSDI with crash captures. 720 23.08 doesn't allow us to do this... when it plays out to the HDSDI it replicates the frames to get back to the standard 59.94fps spec. If we capture this into a Smoke 720p project, we end up with the redundant frames. We have ways around this in smoke, but the problem is then how do we get back to the Mac 24p. Since smoke is running 59.94, we need to capture this material back into a 59.94 FCP setup, not a 23.98 setup. And since it lost all the metadata when it went over to the smoke, the frame-rate convertor will not work to throw away the redundant frames. You mentioned Cinema Tools, but from our tests it did not help. Please explain how you would do this...
We recently upgraded to the current version of smoke (2007) which supposedly had better Varicam support, but as I suspected it still is relying on the metadata. We figured that the only way to preserve the metadata was to lay off the sequence from FCP to a DVCProHD deck then capture it back into the smoke. This did not work. We are running the latest versions of both FCP and Smoke. You said that FCP can output the metadata if the deck if everything is setup correctly. We do not see any options for this in the manual. What exactly are we looking for?
If there is no solution we will write our own DVCPro Frame Rate Convertor which will analyze the clip rather than using the metadata.
-Matt Silverman
Creative Director
Phoenix Editorial | Designs
San Francisco
Re: Panasonic's 720p 23.98 - a fake format by Sean ONeil on Feb 2, 2007 at 10:33:56 pm
This is why I always capture Varicam footage at the framerate it was shot on using Firewire and the appropriate Easy Setup. It removes redundant frames on the fly during capture but retains the original timecode that is on the tape.
If you shoot 23.98, but capture and edit at 59.94, cadence will be broken and you are in a world of trouble should you choose leave the FW world. I've been there. The non-FCP/Firewire/DVCpro world does not take into account that a film framerate can exist within the 720p59.94 standard. If it has bad cadence, I don't think a Teranex can even fix that.
Rarely in the broadcast world will you find 720p masters of footage shot at a film framerate. I've certainly never seen it. 720p masters are from live sporting events, etc., and are shot at 30p or 60p. No cadence issues, no redudant frames, nothing like that.
In the new world of HD, I think it is very, very important that people capture, edit, and master everything at the true framerate. When it gets to broadcast, they can add pulldown from the playback equipment. All feature films are mastered at 1080psf23.98.
Varicam footage at 23.98 should be mastered at this format as well when going to D5 or HDCam, 1080psf23.98.
Re: Panasonic's 720p 23.98 - a fake format by Matt Silverman on Feb 2, 2007 at 10:45:00 pm
We are having this problem with firewire capturing 24p. The 720 format just sucks..
As for film mastering, I believe that most films are finished to D5 24p, not 23.98psf. This is one of the advantages of D5... true 24p, not progressive segmented frames.
Your last comment about varicam mastering... What is Panasonic's recommended workflow? Blow up your master when capturing? Or work 720 then uprez before laying off? I guess you have no other option, since 24p doesn't exist on D5...
Re: Panasonic's 720p 23.98 - a fake format by Shane Ross on Feb 2, 2007 at 10:59:34 pm
[Matt Silverman]"The 720 format just sucks.."
Depends on what you are doing I suppose. Works just fine for me, and a lot of others. What I think is the problem is that the workflow you are attempting doesn't work...well, that is TOO obvious. Since I haven't had to go from FCP to a Smoke in any format via outputting tape, I don't know what to say. Why not export an EDL from FCP and recapture from the source tapes where the flags are intact? Does the Smoke use XML?
[Matt Silverman]"What is Panasonic's recommended workflow? Blow up your master when capturing? Or work 720 then uprez before laying off?"
I am not sure if they have a recommended workflow, as that format is compatible with many edit systems. In the land of FCP, I edit 720p23.98, color correct it, then output via a Kona 3 upconverting on the fly to 1080p23.98 to D5 or HDCAM (D5 preferred). Then we downconvert that to digibeta for broadcast...the D5 is for archival and dubbing only as 23.98 isn't a broadcast standard, as far as I know. HD is broadcast at 59.94. Our original delivery specs were 720p59.94...but that changed.
It would be better, of course, to recapture the footage at 8-bit uncompressed (issues with 10-bit linger) and color correct that as you have better compression to deal with, but when you are on a limited budget color correcting the 720p23.98 footage with FCP built in tools works just fine. And I am not the only one on the top row of faces that does this.
But, we deliver for Cable. I am sure Network standards are higher (as are budgets) so the workflow would be different. Most likely recapture at higher resolution and color correct on FCP with Final Touch, or capture on a Smoke, or Symphony...or output 720p to D5 and do tape-to-tape color correction.
ANYWAY...I just think that your workflow isn't the best, and it obviously isn't working so you need to figure out another way to do it. Saying that "the 720 format sucks" is a rather broad statement and bordering on the level of the "duh" comment.
I worked on a show that shot 720p on a varicam, offline edited on older Avid meridians, and we tried to online at our usual facility on a Nitris DS, but it didn't support 720p. So we had to jump thru a LOT of hoops, spend tons of money and finally get something working. We went overbudget by a lot...A LOT. This is one reason I use FCP.
Re: Panasonic's 720p 23.98 - a fake format by Eli Mavros on Feb 3, 2007 at 1:48:46 am
Two ideas...which may not be what you are looking for.
1. Since you are using a Decklink Card, if you layoff your sequence to tape via SDI, could you not choose to insert a standard 3:2, which I am sure Smoke could recognize and extract quite easily?
2. I don't know if this is a long format show or what your server space looks like, but if you have the Smoke on a server that you can access from your FCP setup, couldn't you export a Quicktime movie, staying in the native format and keeping it at the 23.98 frame rate that you cut at (which should yield not too large of a file, since it is DVCPROHD) and just put it up on the server and bring it into Smoke that way? I don't know about Smoke's DVCPROHD capabilities, but the codec should read correctly...or you could export an uncompressed image sequence (which I'm sure it can read)...though the file would be pretty huge.
I don't know if either of these ideas help at all. I also don't know the answer to how you insert the meta deta onto a tape for extraction later (though I would have thought that FCP did this automatically), but I do know this...there is no way that you are going to be able to lay down a 23.98 onto a DVCPROHD tape without adding some sort of a pulldown. If you don't want to go the route of doing it the non-tape method that I described above, then I think you are going to have to do what everyone else was saying about laying down to HDCAM or D5 if you want to keep it at 23.98 on the tape.
Re: Panasonic's 720p 23.98 - a fake format by aaronowen on Feb 3, 2007 at 3:41:15 am
[Eli Mavros]"1. Since you are using a Decklink Card, if you layoff your sequence to tape via SDI, could you not choose to insert a standard 3:2, which I am sure Smoke could recognize and extract quite easily?" The problem here is that most of the "standard" 3:2 removal tools are geared toward removing fields out of the jitter frames of material running at 29.97fps. 720p runs at a true 59.94 progressive framerate which means that instead of inserting fields to get to 30fps you duplicate full frames in a 3:2 cadence. The normal NTSC pulldown removal tools can't deal with this. This is what happens currently when I output via firewire (or SDI for that matter); the material ends up on the tape running at 59.94 with pulldown that's not easily removed. We could write a tool to be able to handle this which Matt mentioned in an earlier post; but we don't think we should have to.
[Eli Mavros]"...or you could export an uncompressed image sequence (which I'm sure it can read)...though the file would be pretty huge"
In thinking about workarounds for this lil issue, using an image sequence is what we came up with to be able to have an offline reference. The smoke's support of quicktime isn't very good and doesn't include the DVCProHD codec...
[Eli Mavros]"...there is no way that you are going to be able to lay down a 23.98 onto a DVCPROHD tape without adding some sort of a pulldown."
This is a given; I'm just wanting a way to lay down an edited master or an offline reference to the tape and be able to re-load it at its correct native framerate...this is why I refer to the format as a "fake format".
I've seen some posts in this thread that mention D5 running at 23.98. Is this 720p? Does anyone know how D5 stores 720p @ 23.98? Does it have the same pulldown? What sync signal does the deck require when operating in this mode?
Re: Panasonic's 720p 23.98 - a fake format by aaronowen on Feb 3, 2007 at 5:36:09 am
http://forums.creativecow.net/readthread/120/736489/736489?&archive=T Thanks for the link Jeremy; I read an interesting post from Rune in that thread that said:
[ Walter Biscardi ] The 1200A cannot generate the 24p flags itself. I must be fed the 24p feed from the Varicam via HD-SDI for this procedure to work.
...Also, there's an issue that FCP definitely does not generate the flags, and it's a huge bug in everything.
--rune
I would really like Steve Mahrer to weigh in here because it really seems like this whole doesn't currently work like it should when it comes to the finishing process. Does anybody know Steve?
This whole format is only going to get more important to professional post production workflows because all too often the client hires the production company to shoot a project and they are shooting in this format; which is fine....we just need to know the truth when it comes to the metadata encoding on output from the popular systems.
Re: Panasonic's 720p 23.98 - a fake format by JeremyG on Feb 3, 2007 at 6:06:30 am
What I gathered from that post and from Gary's recent post before he defected, was that the 1200A is capable of recording the userbit flagged frames (which the post I linked to tells you how to do). Then Gary is saying that you need to either output firewire into the 1200A using FCP 5.1.2 (apparently the flagged frames do get sent out of the firewire with the latest version of FCP), OR if you are going to use HD SDI you need to export a reference movie of FCP and output using the free Kona TV application with a crash record on the 1200A. So, for firewire, make sure the deck is in 1394 mode (Menu #600 and switch to 1394) turn on the user bits in the 1200A (Menu #505 & switch to TC&UB), then lay off out of FCP. For HD SDI, The Menu 505 stays the same and you need to change Menu #600 to HDSDI. I don't have a deck in house to test right now, so I will leave that part up to you.
Re: Panasonic's 720p 23.98 - a fake format by JeremyG on Feb 3, 2007 at 6:34:40 am
Also, it appears you must set the ext tc in to read the SLTC (Menu 507 (TC SOURCE & set it to SLTC). This part is a guess from re reading that other thread so it might take some finagling. This will probably only be true if you choose the HDSDI/Kona TV method. If you use firewire, it appears that the deck will automatically set up the tc format and read it out of the firewire stream.
Let me know how it goes. If it works, we all will have leaned a little something, whatever it may be.
Re: Panasonic's 720p 23.98 - a fake format by Shane Ross on Feb 3, 2007 at 7:48:27 pm
[aaronowen]"Finally some specific info! Thanks so much!! I will be testing this over the weekend and will post the results..."
That is why these discussions work. LOTS of voices saying things, and more voices to interpret this information and take ideas and add their own. So Gary gave the answer, but it took more people to interpret the answer and say it in a way you understood.
Or sometimes tempers can flare and we brush over the useful information. Or they say SO much that you gloss over it...been there...
Re: Panasonic's 720p 23.98 - a fake format by crcaillouet on Feb 17, 2007 at 12:09:16 am
aaronowen,
I am sorry that your thread turned sour and i hope that you got your problem solved. I have not been monitoring the forum for a while but i ran across this discussion today and thought that it deserved some clarification. So here are some comments on the misunderstandings running rampant in this and other threads about 720p24.
1) 720P23.98 as a fake format
It is a real format in Final Cut Pro and in Quicktime files.
It is, in fact defined along with 720P24 in the ATSC Table A3 (which was not approved by the FCC).
It is not defined across firewire or HDSDI or in any SMPTE standard and no video recorders can handle it.
You just have to get it around in other ways than the two above, or convert it to some other format.
2) 720P23.98 or 720P24 (the common terminology for 720P23.98, which corresponds to 24 when the camera is running at a system frequency of 59.94) do not use advanced pull down or 2,3,3,2. That is a cadence used for interlaced video to make it easier for non-linear editors to pull out the duplicate fields, assuming that they know how do deal with it. Some don't.
Also, advanced pull down should never be used for distribution, only from a camera to the editor, and only then, with care.
At any rate, it has nothing to do with progressive recordings so that is a red herring in this discussion.
By the way, most recordings are made at 59.94 or 23.98 to simplify editing and audio layback, even if a film out process is anticipated. The conversion to 24.00 is made at the very end of the chain. When i write 24, 30 or 60, i mean 23.98(actually 23.976), 29.97 and 59.94.
3) The metadata that you refer to is simply a string of bits in the user data part of the SMPTE time code associated with the clip in question. It is carried with the time code numbers but the editor needs to be cadence-aware to know to put it in a time code stream.
4) When you drop a clip onto a sequence track, you retain a link to the original time code for edit decisions but you assign a new time code for the finished sequence. If the sequence is 60 (or 59.94) fps, then a cadence is implied for all 24 fps material included and it is incumbent on the editor to keep track of the 2,3 cadence. It is possible to do this on a 60 fps sequence but it is not trivial. The accepted standard for doing this is to keep track of "A" frames, the start of the 2,3 cadence.
Many editors and software utilities know about A frames and can extract a 24P sequence when the cadence is intact (no edits which change the cadence,) even without other flags. This is commonly referred to as "reverse telecine" and has been used for film transfers through "telecines". A smart application can even look at the images and detect the cadence by finding repeated frames.
If you convert the clip to 24 (or 23.98), through any number of methods, then you can drop the clip on a 24 fps sequence track without regard for cadences. All cadence information is lost in a 24 fps sequence because there is no cadence. Even the off-speed effects clips have been converted before they are dropped into the sequence.
5) If you want to export the sequence at 24 fps, you have several options.
One is to keep it in file form as 720p24, without cadence issues. You can move this over a network or on a drive to another system or application that knows about that format and the compression scheme that is used to represent it. This works for compressed or uncompressed clips. The receiver just has to know how to decode it.
Another is to export it as a 1080p24 clip to a recorder that can handle that format. The most obvious are HDCam and D5. Note that not all HDCam and D5 decks can record and play 24 fps. 1080P24 does not contain a pull down cadence, only the unique frames. It may be actually recorded and displayed as segmented frames for operational reasons, but there are no duplicate fields or frames.
You can also chose to recreate a cadence and export the clip as 720p60, 1080i30 or 480i30. When you do this, you are recreating a new cadence, not retaining the original one.
6) The comment about many workflows is very true. There are as many as there are users and edit systems. Panasonic will suggest some options based on your configuration but when you mix systems, you are required to learn something about the capabilities of the systems and the signals that can move among them.
Ranting on either side is not helpful.
cheers,
Vision Unlimited/LA
Prairieville, LA
HD production technical support since 1987
...searching for the right tools for the job...
