editing 24p, 24p adv, and 60i footage
by clairemp
on
Jan 20, 2007 at 4:58:22 pm
Hello,
I've spent hours perusing this and other forums, so I'm not right off the turnip truck and have certainly looked through the various posts for similar issues, but I'm hoping to get some answers to two questions. Thanks in advance for any help offered.
First, I have shot almost all the footage for my documentary (using a panasonic dvx-100 or 100a) using the standard 24p mode. Before the very first shoot for the film, I was perhaps erroneously advised to "definitely" shoot in 24p-adv. mode, leaving me with 4 hours of footage that I now need to bring in to my 29.97 timeline, no big deal according to everything I have read, and I understand that footage will need to be rendered. I understand that the movement may be jittery at best, but since the footage was of an African dance class and not an interview, I'm hoping that I am not royally screwed, so to speak. Please let me know if there are any other post-production tricks I can use to smooth out this footage should it prove, well, unreasonably stutter-y.
I am also going to use some footage shot on a non-24p DV camera, importing it at 29.97 as well, and while it will clearly not look like the 24p footage, I'm using it as "archival" material so hopefully I will be able to use all of these three kinds of footage on the same 29.97 timeline. Hit me over the head if I'm wrong.
Second, I have had the use of a Sony DSR-20 deck for a few months now but have been afraid of and/or confused about all the final cut pro settings, and lo and behold, the person who generously lent me the deck is now taking it back. Rats. Should I spend the money to rent a deck or use my camera to capture/log my 80+ hours of footage? Seems too much to be using my DVX-100a as a deck. I know, I know, should have gotten my act together while I had the deck at my disposal. Spilt milk, I guess.
Thank you again for all the amazing info here, and for any responses that may come to help me.
ste
Re: editing 24p, 24p adv, and 60i footage by CaptainMench on Jan 20, 2007 at 9:07:52 pm
You're on the right path with everything except the 24pA stuff...
If you've already captured that material into FCP with the advanced pulldown removed then it's running at 23.98. You need to get it back to (for lack of a better term...) 24p mode in 29.97 -- more on that later...
If it's still on tape, you could just capture it as 29.97 (which it is) and leave it at that.
BUT - now you'll have two different cadences running. NO big deal if it doesn't really bother you.
Here's what I suggest.
Lay your 24pA (now 23.98) material onto a timeline and make sure your Playback RT cadence settins are at 3:2 and lay it back off to tape.
Then capture it back in as if you shot it 24p -- as 29.97 with a 3.2 cadence.
I THINK Cinema Tools will telecine it for you (add back the 3.2 cadence... but I'm not for sure... but probably will. So, to recap:
if the 24pA material is on your computer as 29.97:
1) Edit in 29.97 and leave it alone
2) Remove the Advanced Pulldown cadence and re-employ a 3.2 cadence and edit freely
if the 24pA material is on yoru computer as 23.98
1) Lay it back to tape using 3.2 cadence
2) Use cinema tools to telecine it to 3.2 cadence and edit freely in 29.97
Remember -- 24p material shot on the DVX is 23.98 with 3.2 cadence added making it 29.97.
Re: editing 24p, 24p adv, and 60i footage by gary adcock on Jan 20, 2007 at 10:24:21 pm
[clairemp]"First, I have shot almost all the footage for my documentary (using a panasonic dvx-100 or 100a) using the standard 24p mode. Before the very first shoot for the film, I was perhaps erroneously advised to "definitely" shoot in 24p-adv. mode, leaving me with 4 hours of footage that I now need to bring in to my 29.97 timeline, "
you do understand that who ever told you to shoot 24pA was correct. - no mushy C frame in the A content
Why, if you shot the footage at 24p why are you not editing in 24p? Chances are at least 1/4 of your edits will be on redundant frames and that will require to hand cut each and everyone of the seqs if your need a 24p final master.
As Capt Mench said - you can always recapture the 24pA footage as 29.97 or you could CT all of the captured footage to match.
[clairemp]"I am also going to use some footage shot on a non-24p DV camera, importing it at 29.97 as well, and while it will clearly not look like the 24p footage, I'm using it as "archival" material so hopefully I will be able to use all of these three kinds of footage on the same 29.97 timeline. Hit me over the head if I'm wrong."
OK
the majority of your content is 23.98 but you are working at 29.97 just for a small number of broll shots?
Yes someone should wap you in the head = the 24p material would take up 20% less storage to start.
Nattress effects make a grate Standards conversion plug in for FCP ($99) that does a very goods job of 29.97 to 24p that way All the shot footage will match is you work at 24. if you are planning on a broadcast master done in at 29.97 it might be rejected by standards as you will have 2 different types of cadence for the redundant frames from the 24fps content - which can be flagged as drop outs
if it is different than what was expected ( ie: 24p has a cadence of 3:2 vs 2:3:3:2 for the 24pA) standards may bounce it.
gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Re: editing 24p, 24p adv, and 60i footage by CaptainMench on Jan 20, 2007 at 10:40:34 pm
I'm hoping final will actually be 29.97. If not, this person's in a world of hurt.
If that indeed's the case, don't worry about editing the 3:2 (24p mode) material on redundant frames. Been done that way for years, ever since the advent of Digital editing and telecine'd-film filmed TV shows.
Re: editing 24p, 24p adv, and 60i footage by Sean ONeil on Jan 21, 2007 at 8:34:20 am
[CaptainMench]"Been done that way for years, ever since the advent of Digital editing and telecine'd-film filmed TV shows."
Yeah but now people are viewing progressive scan displays at home. Web clips, LCD/DLP/Plasma etc. Unlike CRT displays, digital displays do not draw one line at a time, one field at a time. All interlaced footage is converted to progressive. And bad cadence can defeat consumer equipment's ability to properly deinterlace. So this is a much bigger concern to worry about nowadays.
Re: editing 24p, 24p adv, and 60i footage by clairemp on Jan 21, 2007 at 3:58:13 pm
Thank you both for your responses to my post.
The good news is that I have not actually captured any of the footage yet, just did a few tests yesterday, and I apparently still have some decisions to make. I had found info about the plug-in in one of the Ken Stone articles, so I appreciate the added vote for that to help me integrate the standard DV footage in with the stuff shot in 24p.
As suggested, I was planning to take the 24padv footage, capture and place it on a 23.98 timeline (using the "remove advanced pulldown" set-up choice), then output (while I still have this sweet deck) on to a new miniDV tape. I could then re-import it at 29.97 without working with two different cadences in the same timeline. It's difficult for me to detect any major differences in the motion since I have not been able to get a monitor yet and am only looking on my computer screen.
However, you both bring up something that has me not hitting myself over the head but definitely scratching it; all that I have been reading and researching indicates that if you are not planning to output to film or a 24p DVD, but instead foresee a television broadcast (as was the case with my last film) and perhaps some festival screenings, stick with the 29.97 timeline and use the "DV-NTSC" FCP import setting. I am a little confused with the notion that the stuff I shot in standard 24p (not 2:3:3:2) should go into a 23.98 timeline.
I don't want to overstay my welcome here, but a little clarification would help and hopefully bring you some good karma :) As I said, I am still at the point where I can do either one, but I don't anticipate a theatrical release or a need for a film print. However, saving space and improving the final output is of course a consideration. I have about 80 hours shot on standard 24p/F5 mode, and those 4 hours shot in 24padv/F6 mode.
Re: editing 24p, 24p adv, and 60i footage by CaptainMench on Jan 21, 2007 at 4:26:19 pm
I'm going to go out on a limb here... this isn't my normal position, but the sheer brawn of the statement might answer your question -- but I don't want it to scare you, because there are worse things in this world than worrying about frame rates.
here goes:
WHY on earth would you EVER want to film with 24 ANYTHING if you are 99% sure you won't go to film or DVD??!!! That's just silly. 24p is a film LOOK that serves NO purpose at all to what you can accomplish with 30 frames per second. Then you run into all sorts of redundant frame editing messes and it's just not going to work. Shoot 30p only because we edit for the 100 people who have the most expensive sets and who won't want to see any interlacing on their TVs or they'll call their cable provider and then that cable exec will call me and it's all down hill."
Look...
Edit yourself two 2 minute shorts -- one with the 24pA material in 23.98 and one with the 24p material cut however you want in a 29.97 timeline. Lay both to tape (making sure you select the 3.2 cadence for the 23.98 transfer back) and go to best buy with a deck or camera and play back the tape on a 50 plus inch plasma whatever -- make sure it's 1080p for goodness sakes!!
See if you like or care which is best.
It's going to be up to you. But I don't think you'll notice much difference. My vote is to convert the 24pA material to 24p mode material and edit it all in a 29.97 timeline. Ideal? No... will it save you time and headache YES!
Re: editing 24p, 24p adv, and 60i footage by Sean ONeil on Jan 21, 2007 at 7:23:21 pm
[CaptainMench]"WHY on earth would you EVER want to film with 24 ANYTHING if you are 99% sure you won't go to film or DVD??!!! That's just silly. 24p is a film LOOK that serves NO purpose at all to what you can accomplish with 30 frames per second."
??? Are you serious? Footage shot at 24 has a completely different look than footage shot at 30. Doesn't matter if it's converted to 60i via pulldown and brodcast on TV. It still has a completely distinct cinematic look, whereas stuff shot at 30fps looks more like sitcom/soap opera.
[CaptainMench]"Shoot 30p only because we edit for the 100 people who have the most expensive sets and who won't want to see any interlacing on their TVs or they'll call their cable provider and then that cable exec will call me and it's all down hill.""
That's why its always better to capture and edit 24p footage at 24p (23.98). You're probably getting calls like that because of your previous statement. People have been editing pulldown footage w/o regard to cadence since the advent of digital video editing. Myself included. But as of the past couple years, progressive displays are the norm for consumers. So you will get calls like that and that's why I think its important for people to change their workflow standards when working with 24fps material. Capturing and editing 23.98 footage at 23.98 is the simplest solution.
Re: editing 24p, 24p adv, and 60i footage by Shane Ross on Jan 21, 2007 at 8:01:17 pm
[Sean ONeil]"??? Are you serious? Footage shot at 24 has a completely different look than footage shot at 30. Doesn't matter if it's converted to 60i via pulldown and brodcast on TV. It still has a completely distinct cinematic look, whereas stuff shot at 30fps looks more like sitcom/soap opera."
You aren't paying attention Sean. 24P is recorded to tape at 29.97fps. It has the LOOK of a film cadence, while remaining in the 29.97 frame rate of video. It doesn't look like 30i of the OLD Soap Operas (they all now go thru a film look process to look less video, BTW).
[Sean ONeil]"
That's why its always better to capture and edit 24p footage at 24p (23.98)."
Wrong. Not if you are going to output back to SD tape. What would be the point? Tape runs at 29.97, so why would you capture and edit at 23.98, only to go back to 29.97? What is the possible benefit?
I have worked on several TV shows that were shot on super 16mm, telecined to digibeta...24fps recorded to tape at 29.97 using the 3:2 pulldown. Now, when we edited, we edited at 29.97fps. When we onlined the show we onlined at 29.97fps. Not once did we capture and edit at 23.98. There was no point.
But, if you shoot on HD or telecine film to HD at 23.98, then make DVCAM downconverts, then yes, there is a reason to edit 23.98, as the master is 23.98. But, if you shot 24P on DVCAM, your master is 29.97, to edit 29.97.
[Sean ONeil]"People have been editing pulldown footage w/o regard to cadence since the advent of digital video editing. Myself included. But as of the past couple years, progressive displays are the norm for consumers. So you will get calls like that and that's why I think its important for people to change their workflow standards when working with 24fps material. Capturing and editing 23.98 footage at 23.98 is the simplest solution."
People have been shooting 24P and 24PA footage and editing it in a variety of ways without taking the time to research and test their workflows. They just choose that setting because they want the "film look." In fact, more that once I have seen people who captured the footage at 24fps...TRUE 24fps...editing that and then trying to either online that or get that back to tape. You can't...it is 24fps. But they didn't understand, they just wanted the film look. These are cases of looking before you leap.
If you are going to shoot on DVCAM tape, and end up with a DVCAM master or other SD tape master (digibeta), then shoot and edit 29.97. Shoot 24P or 30P if you want the film look. I fail to see any benefit to shooting and editing 24PA for outputting to tape.
If you plan to master to DVD, or to high end HD like HDCAM or D5, or planning a film out, then shooting and editing 24PA as 23.98 is the way to go.
This is the general rule, and what I tell people who are inexperienced with this. BUT, if working 23.98 works for you, by all means, do it that way. Some people do and it works. But many are too inexperienced and make mistakes somewhere in the process.
Re: editing 24p, 24p adv, and 60i footage by clairemp on Jan 21, 2007 at 11:55:40 pm
Well a lot of info has crossed through this thread, leaving me somewhat clearer and somewhat more baffled.
I shot on 24p because I had indeed noticed an improved look in footage shot on 24p in other films, even when NOT output to film, and that look fit with the tone and content of my documentary project. I have tried to find out as much info as I can from varying sources (many of which offer conflicting advice) before shooting, and now, before editing. [By the way I'm not planning on editing the whole film, I'm just trying to log, capture and organize my footage before moving on to working with an editor.]
I apologize for being in the cow pasture if I should really be in the calf pasture,but I have read about and know personally many filmmakers who jump in before checking out the waters, so I'm trying my best to not make a huge mistake and sort through my options.
With the many issues and considerations that have been brought to my attention, I'm afraid that I'm still feeling a bit stuck, afraid to make the wrong choice in terms of working with a 23.98 timeline vs. a 29.97 timeline, ie bring in those four 24padv hours at 29.97 or bring in the 80 hours of standard 24p footage at 29.98. In either case I'm quite sure I'll be making a master on Digibeta if that is still the broadcast standard (my last film was shot on a VX1000 and was broadcast on The Discovery Channel and National Geographic). I am swimming in images of fields and frames, cadences and failing broadcasters' standards tests. Lots to digest and try to figure out, thank you for all the advice.
Re: editing 24p, 24p adv, and 60i footage by Sean ONeil on Jan 24, 2007 at 5:13:09 am
[Shane Ross]"Wrong. Not if you are going to output back to SD tape. What would be the point? Tape runs at 29.97, so why would you capture and edit at 23.98, only to go back to 29.97? What is the possible benefit?"
Editing at 23.98 and THEN going back to 29.97 adds new pulldown with clean, continuous cadence. What's the benefit you ask? Cutting in a 29.97 timeline will destroy the cadence at every single edit point unless all edits are made at the A frame. Depending on the speed and frequency of the edits, the results can be pretty bad on most consumer TV sets. Unlike our CRT broadcast monitors (which bad cadence is not detectable on), all digital displays (LCD, plasma, etc.) have to deinterlace everything first.
Some have expensive scalers to cover up our mistakes. There is a specific feature marketed as "Bad Edit Detection" seen in high-end consumer video processors like the DCDI. Google it. Those "bad edits" are the result of the editor's workflow you just described. Yes, it is completely common and standard practice to still do this. I guess many people figure to leave it alone since everything will be HD soon enough. Too complicated to fix. But I have dealt with one QC person who checks for clean cadence and also makes sure the A frame is on 00.
[Shane Ross]"If you are going to shoot on DVCAM tape, and end up with a DVCAM master or other SD tape master (digibeta), then shoot and edit 29.97. Shoot 24P or 30P if you want the film look. I fail to see any benefit to shooting and editing 24PA for outputting to tape."
Completely different topic. But on this I'm sorry you're completely wrong. Even if you edit, master, and view the footage at 29.97, shooting it at 24fps still has a completely different look to it vs. shooting at 30fps. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you, because I cannot fathom how you could disagree with that. Watch a film on TBS on a little 13" TV. Then switch to a rerun of Married With Children. The difference is night and day. And I'm not talking about the color or the grain. I'm talking about the motion. It's the difference between watching a movie, and watching the "Behind the Scenes" of the movie.
Same thing with HD even. Turn on HBO HD and watch a movie for a minute. Then switch to Discovery HD (which likely has a show on shot at 1080i 30fps on a 1st gen HDcam). Even though both are brodacast at 1080i60, one was shot at 24 and the other at 30. Completely different look.
Why do you think so many video cameras allow you to shoot in 24fps? Its not just for people going out to film or HD. It's because of the look, which is blatently appearent even on a crappy old NTSC TV set.
Re: editing 24p, 24p adv, and 60i footage by Shane Ross on Jan 24, 2007 at 8:43:12 pm
[Sean ONeil]"Editing at 23.98 and THEN going back to 29.97 adds new pulldown with clean, continuous cadence. What's the benefit you ask? Cutting in a 29.97 timeline will destroy the cadence at every single edit point unless all edits are made at the A frame."
Well, I edited a TV series that was shot on Super 16mm, telecined to digibeta and dubbed to DVCAM for injesting into an old Avid 7.1 system. We digitized at 29.97 and edited the show without making sure that we cut on the A frame. If we had to do that, then pacing and reactions would all be off. We cut where we needed to cut, and then onlined the digibetas tape to tape...never had an issue.
[Sean ONeil]"Even if you edit, master, and view the footage at 29.97, shooting it at 24fps still has a completely different look to it vs. shooting at 30fps. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you, because I cannot fathom how you could disagree with that. Watch a film on TBS on a little 13" TV. Then switch to a rerun of Married With Children. The difference is night and day. And I'm not talking about the color or the grain. I'm talking about the motion."
No, I agree with you here. I am not talking about 24fps film vs 30i video. I am talking about 24P video that shoots 24fps on a 30 frame tape. Performing a 3:2 pulldown on the tape. The tape runs at 29.97 fps but the footage was recorded at 24fps...thus you have the film look. BUT...you can capture and edit this footage at 29.97...just like we did with the TV series...and not have to worry about a-frame edits. It works fine. There is no need to convert to 23.98, edit, then output to 29.97. SURE, you can, but why? You are just, IMHO, adding a step that might lead to problems.
But...if this workflow works for you, fine. I mainly say "stay 29.97" to the people who are new to FCP and editing in general so that they don't get stuck. I have been involved in helping two people who captured their footage at 24fps...TRUE 24fps...and now needed to output to tape and were stuck. They didn't notice...don't know why...that their 24fps footage was stuttering like mad. "Oh, I though that was normal."
If you design a 29.97>23.98 workflow that works...run with it. I am more concerned with making sure that people don't run into issues, especially if they are new, and adding that step might complicate matters.
Re: editing 24p, 24p adv, and 60i footage by gary adcock on Jan 21, 2007 at 6:53:09 pm
[clairemp]" I am a little confused with the notion that the stuff I shot in standard 24p (not 2:3:3:2) should go into a 23.98 timeline. "
the only difference between 24p and 24pA is the cadence of the redundant frames - if you have captured both at 29.97 you can use the arrow key to go frame by frame through the content to see the "cadence" of these frames.
From the post side 24p needs to go thru the manual process of removing these frames whereas the 24pA it can be done automatically on import. both formats are recorded to tape at 29.97
gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
