Cheapest way to HD reference monitoring
by Tim Allison
on
Dec 19, 2006 at 7:37:09 pm
We presently edit BetaSP on FCP with a Kona LS card, and standard definition Sony 16:9/4:3 switchable CRT monitors. In the future, we are going to add XDCAM HD equipment, which will require a major upgrade to our system. But right now, we just want to break into the HD world, with a decent HDV camera. We can input the HDV material into FCP via a Firewire cable. But what is the cheapest way to set up HD reference monitoring?
Re: Cheapest way to HD reference monitoring by Shane Ross on Dec 19, 2006 at 7:42:14 pm
Well, for one you are going to have to get an HD card. The Kona LH is a good one, especially for HDV (because you can capture it as different formats).
Monitoring is tricky. Not many "cheap" HD monitoring solutions. SOny used to make the PVM-14L5 for $1500, and that did SD and HD, and with an HDSDI card, it did GREAT HD. But that model has been discontinued, as has the 20L5. Panasonic has an HD LCD, the BT-LH1700W, which is great for field monitoring, but questionable for final color grading. But, it is an option.
Shane
FCP Preferences set to UNCONTROLLED ADVICE
Littlefrog Post
www.lfhd.net
Re: Cheapest way to HD reference monitoring by Tim Allison on Dec 19, 2006 at 8:39:16 pm
We are thinking of getting a Sony HVR-M25U HDV deck, which has an HDMI out connection. Will FCP pass along an HD signal back to this deck via Firewire, and then out to a consumer HD monitor via the HDMI connection?
When we go XDCAM, we are going to be buying a lot of post-production "stuff", including a Kona 3 card for up/down/cross converting. The Kona LH won't do this. We are also considering an AJA Io to provide Betacam analog connectivity to the Kona 3, and to continue to give us SD capabilities with the Betacam. And we are looking at the Panasonic BT-LH2600W monitor, mostly because it has both analog component inputs and HD-SDI inputs.
As you can see, these items carry some hefty price tags. Right now, I'm trying to get into one of the lower levels of HDV production on FCP in order to play around a little bit, and learn some things. I'm a little bit cautious of spending money on items like a Kona 3 card, only to discover later that we really need something else. For example, two years ago, we chose to go with Kona LS cards instead of AJA Io boxes. I wish I could turn back the clock and change that decision now, because the Kona LS is about to become obsolete, while the Io boxes would still be useful to us.
Re: Cheapest way to HD reference monitoring by Shane Ross on Dec 19, 2006 at 8:59:17 pm
[Tim Allison]"Will FCP pass along an HD signal back to this deck via Firewire, and then out to a consumer HD monitor via the HDMI connection?"
No. The HDV signal is too complex to be sent out via firewire for monitoring. HDV requires a capture card of some sort. AJA, Decklink, MAtrox MXO, and now the Intensity that will allow you to connect to an HDMI monitor.
[Tim Allison]"We are also considering an AJA Io to provide Betacam analog connectivity to the Kona 3,"
Actually I recommend folks add an Io LA for analog connectivity as it offers Component, Composite and S-Video I/O and it works hand in hand with the Kona. What I really like is the Component output along with Balanced XLR audio which I keep hardwired to my BetaSP deck while the Component output of my Kona feeds my HD monitors. No need to switch cables around.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters
Walter--what about up-converting the Betacam? by Tim Allison on Dec 19, 2006 at 10:20:27 pm
I don't understand how the Io LA will work with the Kona 3 card to up-convert my Betacam video. I understand the full-blown Io. Take component into the Io, take SDI out of the Io, then take this SDI into the Kona 3 and up-convert it. Makes sense. Meanwhile, an Io LA will take my component video, and send it straight to the computer via the Firewire cable.
In order for the Kona 3 to up-convert my Betacam footage, doesn't that footage have to pass through the Kona 3 at some point in time?
Re: Walter--what about up-converting the Betacam? by Shane Ross on Dec 19, 2006 at 10:27:45 pm
I don't think Walter is talking about connecting the I/O to the Kona. Rather having the I/O as a SEPARATE capture device. If you need to convert analog SD to HD SDI you need the AJA box Walter and I both linked to.
Shane
FCP Preferences set to UNCONTROLLED ADVICE
Littlefrog Post
www.lfhd.net
Re: Walter--what about up-converting the Betacam? by walter biscardi on Dec 19, 2006 at 11:22:24 pm
[Tim Allison]"I don't understand how the Io LA will work with the Kona 3 card to up-convert my Betacam video."
If you need to upcovert Betacam then you want that converter Shane described to you to take the Component out from the deck and feed it SDI to the Kona for upconvert.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters
What about this, Shane? by Tim Allison on Dec 19, 2006 at 10:35:12 pm
[Shane Ross]"Just get this: http://www.aja.com/html/products_converters_HD10AVA.html It converts analog signals to HD SDI that in turn will connect to the Kona 3. No reason to have two capture cards. The Kona 3 captures SD and HD."
This particular converter gets me into FCP with either HD or SD material. That's great. But what about if we need to go back to Betacam tape? The Kona 3 has component out for the video, but no analog audio out. Do I buy another converter to get the audio back out?
I've been pulling my hair out on this for a couple of weeks now, and the ONLY complete solution I've found is a full-blown Io hooked through the Kona 3. The problem is....that's a pretty expensive combo. If I've missed something, please point it out.
Re: What about this, Shane? by Shane Ross on Dec 19, 2006 at 11:14:34 pm
[Tim Allison]" But what about if we need to go back to Betacam tape? The Kona 3 has component out for the video, but no analog audio out. Do I buy another converter to get the audio back out?"
SURE it has analog audio out. I count 4 XLR inputs and outputs. You can downconvert to betaSP right from the card. NO adaptor needed.
Shane
FCP Preferences set to UNCONTROLLED ADVICE
Littlefrog Post
www.lfhd.net
Re: Walter, what will I lose by..... by walter biscardi on Dec 19, 2006 at 11:35:59 pm
[Tim Allison]"
.....using the RCA stereo audio outputs feeding the Betacam audio? Anything?"
Somebody will probably chime and say you're losing quality since it's un-balanced audio vs. balanced, but honestly I don't really see a problem with it. You can order RCA to XLR cables from Markertek so you don't need any adapters. I would definitely go that route as adapters always seem to add some audio noise when used.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters
Re: What about this, Shane? by walter biscardi on Dec 19, 2006 at 11:39:20 pm
[Shane Ross]"What do you do in this case then Walter?"
I use the Flying Cow A/D converter to feed AES/EBU to my Beta deck when I need to, though it's normalled to my Io LA and I usually use that for laying off to Beta.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters
Re: What about this, Shane? by JeremyG on Dec 20, 2006 at 4:47:35 am
[Tim Allison]" and the ONLY complete solution I've found is a full-blown Io hooked through the Kona 3. The problem is....that's a pretty expensive combo. If I've missed something, please point it out."
Well, it's almost complete. The full blown io and Kona 3 won't get your HDV footage in for editing in the DVCPro HD codec(if that's what you want to do). If you need this capability, then you will need the HD10AVA, the Kona 3, and a patch bay. That way you can patch the connections you need in and out when you need them.
The io and Kona is a great combo (I run that combo constantly) but since I haven't had an HDV project come through the door yet, there's no reason for the AVA for me. I use the io for a/d/d/a conversion for my Kona 2 and it works flawlessly.
The Kona LH is your best bet as it allow you to transcode your HDV on the fly on the way in, monitor it on the way out, and move your analog video and audio in and out without any other boxes or converters. How much up and cross converting will you be doing? Also, if you are planning to get a Kona 3, you will need to upgrade to a MacPro. The Kona 3 is PCIe only.
Re: What about this, Shane? by walter biscardi on Dec 20, 2006 at 12:46:30 pm
[JeremyG]"The Kona LH is your best bet as it allow you to transcode your HDV on the fly on the way in, monitor it on the way out, and move your analog video and audio in and out without any other boxes or converters."
Except that he mentions Upconverting Beta in another post, so then he would be looking at the Kona 2 / 3 depending on PCI-X or PCIe configuration.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters
Re: What about this, Shane? by JeremyG on Dec 20, 2006 at 3:52:28 pm
That's why I asked how much up-converting he will be doing. There's a trade off here. If he only 'thinks' he's going to do some up-converting every once in a while, I am not sure if the more expensive rig of a Kona 3, an AVA, flying cow and and patch panels and cables are the correct purchase. There are other ways to up-convert in FCP that will prove satisfactory, especially if it's a shot here an there. The LH will be great for his Sony HDV camera and will require less patching and will allow him to continue to work with the Beta SP material it sounds like he is still working with a lot. Eventually he will needs to upgrade to a MacPro and The LH will be the cheapest stop gap until that happens as he slowly migrates to HD with the cheapest solution possible. As you know, any internal cards he buys will have to be replaced. On the other hand the AVA or io will travel to the new system, Tim. Once the full blown HD comes in then a more expensive rig would make sense.
[Tim Allison]"But right now, we just want to break into the HD world, with a decent HDV camera. We can input the HDV material into FCP via a Firewire cable. But what is the cheapest way to set up HD reference monitoring?"
Perhaps I am wrong, but it makes sense to me. I guess I am trying to read between the lines a little too much. It seems to me that Tim wants to keep it cheap and 'learn some things' about HDV. He also mentioned cross converting which will require a Kona 3, but he has a G5 PCI-X. There's some thinking that Tim has to do, either way, be prepared to spend money.
Tim, AJA has a white paper on working with HDV footage and the Kona LH that might be of use to you:
Re: Cheapest way to HD reference monitoring by walter biscardi on Dec 19, 2006 at 9:45:25 pm
[Tim Allison]"Will FCP pass along an HD signal back to this deck via Firewire, and then out to a consumer HD monitor via the HDMI connection?"
As Shane notes, no you cannot do this. The AJA Kona 3 can play an HDV timeline out to a monitor in realtime. I'm pretty sure the LHe can do this as well, but you'd need to read the specs.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters
Re: Cheapest way to HD reference monitoring by Michael G on Dec 19, 2006 at 10:21:09 pm
Two points to consider. Blackmagic have just released a cheap HDMI card. Secondly Sharp Aquos LCD moniotrs are fantastic. The 45" is a true 1080 HD monitor and I use it for grading.
My monitor is over a year old and doesn't have HDMI, so check that Sharp will have HDMI inputs on later models. A lot of domestic moniotrs that call themselves HD are not able to go beyond 720 so make sure you get a true 1080 monitor.
Michael...here's my concern about that by Tim Allison on Dec 19, 2006 at 10:46:27 pm
If I understand things correctly, the Blackmagic Intensity card (HDMI) is a PCIe card, and G5's are not (yet) supported for that card. In order to get the PCIe slot, we will need to up-grade to a new Mac Pro box. This isn't such a bad deal, because we will eventually do that anyway. But once we upgrade to a Mac Pro, then our Kona LS cards are useless, and we have to get a new in/out card for our SD Betacam. Well, if we get something like a Kona LH, then we won't need the Blackmagic card anyway.
Re: Michael...here's my concern about that by Michael G on Dec 19, 2006 at 11:17:01 pm
True, the new card won't work in a G5. However, it is worth considering options in the Blackmagic family. I use the Blackmagic HD extreme in my G5 with component feed to my Sharp monitor. If you are needing to upgrade from your Kona, then take a look at all the Blackmagic options as well.
Re: Cheapest way to HD reference monitoring by ches_martin on Dec 21, 2006 at 9:00:55 pm
[Tim Allison]"But what is the cheapest way to set up HD reference monitoring?"
There's always the option of AJA's HDP converter or the Blackmagic HDLink coupled with with an HD-resolution LCD. Not really suited for color correction, but the price is nice and you'll get full-raster 1080, something you won't get with a CRT or even the Panasonic BT-LH series monitors.
