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Editing HD in a SD timeline (delivery in SD)

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Oscar GottiEditing HD in a SD timeline (delivery in SD)
by on Feb 6, 2013 at 1:17:54 pm

Hello,

I have a video to edit, which is going to be broadcast/delivered in SD. But the footage is in HD.

The producer prepped an SD timeline for me to edit the HD footage on... Is it better to edit this footage in an HD timeline? I'm not sure if that's just the way they do things in this company... or if I should recommend using a timeline which conforms to the footage, then just export it in SD?

Thanks


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Sareesh SudhakaranRe: Editing HD in a SD timeline (delivery in SD)
by on Feb 6, 2013 at 2:39:29 pm

I recommend editing in HD in the same specs as the source footage, and only converting to SD on final export.

http://www.wolfcrow.com - Workflow information and support for filmmakers, photographers, audiographers and videographers.


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Oscar GottiRe: Editing HD in a SD timeline (delivery in SD)
by on Feb 6, 2013 at 7:30:55 pm

Okay, this is what I ended up doing thanks.

I was wondering if there wasn't a more easier way to copy my edit from the SD timeline onto my HD timeline? What I did was use the match frame function for all my video and audio tracks... is there a quicker way to do this?

Thanks


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Spencer AverickRe: Editing HD in a SD timeline (delivery in SD)
by on Feb 6, 2013 at 8:35:36 pm

You can just copy all of the clips in the timeline and paste them into an HD sequence, then remove attributes Scale and Distort. This will only work if the frame rates are the same though.


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Oscar GottiRe: Editing HD in a SD timeline (delivery in SD)
by on Feb 6, 2013 at 8:41:46 pm

Thanks you are a genius!


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Dave LaRondeRe: Editing HD in a SD timeline (delivery in SD)
by on Feb 6, 2013 at 6:59:22 pm

It's hard to say for certain how to proceed.

Should the SD file be delivered as 4x3 with the HD video center-punched or letterboxed?
Should it be delivered as 16x9, which is rare for broadcast?
Was the footage shot with 4x3 action safe in mind?

A bit more information will help.

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Oscar GottiRe: Editing HD in a SD timeline (delivery in SD)
by on Feb 6, 2013 at 7:28:34 pm

Hiya,

It should be delivered as 16:9, which from my understanding is the international standard format of HDTV, Full HD, non-HD digital television and analog widescreen television. So not so rare surely?

The footage is 1920x1080.

Thanks


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Dave LaRondeRe: Editing HD in a SD timeline (delivery in SD)
by on Feb 6, 2013 at 7:43:44 pm

16x9 SD is much more common in Europe than it is in North America. I recommend getting delivery specifications from the broadcasting organization. Instead of guessing at the delivery specs, you'll know.

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Oscar GottiRe: Editing HD in a SD timeline (delivery in SD)
by on Feb 6, 2013 at 7:46:51 pm

Dave I am not guessing the delivery specs, I am already aware of them.. Please re-read my question.


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Dave LaRondeRe: Editing HD in a SD timeline (delivery in SD)
by on Feb 6, 2013 at 11:37:08 pm

Glad to learn that you know the media container, codec, vertical & horizontal dimensions, frame rate, field order, audio compression, audio sampling rate, audio bit rate and peak audio level in dB to get the job done.

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Oscar GottiRe: Editing HD in a SD timeline (delivery in SD)
by on Feb 6, 2013 at 11:42:49 pm

check, check, check, check, check, check & check

...except all that has nothing to do with my question? but someone else has answered it already so never mind.


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Jeff MeyerRe: Editing HD in a SD timeline (delivery in SD)
by on Feb 7, 2013 at 12:43:32 am

Those are all relevant details regarding the correct path to proceed. As are the inputs. Saying you have HD could easily mean any of the following: 960x720, 1280x720, 1280x1080, 1440x1080, or 1920x1080 at 30i, 30p or 60p. Or 24p if you're starting with a non-broadcast format. The output could be 720x480, 720x486. And all of those sizes and rates are assuming use of the NTSC standard! Also, there's the aspect ratio question, side-crop, letterbox, anamorphic? If you're coming from 24p and going 30i things can change quite a bit.

It may sound like Dave is being nosy, but he's trying to give you the best advice he can, and information tends to lead to better questions.

In general it is best to work on an HD sequence thusly creating an HD master along the way. If a later HD delivery is required the HD master already exists. That said, if you're starting from thin raster HD it may be best to do a conversion before editing for the sake of graphics/titles, and then another conversion from that master to meet the SD delivery specs.

It isn't about prying into your business, it's about giving you the best advice we're able to offer.


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Oscar GottiRe: Editing HD in a SD timeline (delivery in SD)
by on Feb 7, 2013 at 1:55:31 am

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for your response.

I still don't see how mentioning the sizes and rates would help my question, as essentially what I am asking is if it best to edit footage to a timeline with the same specs even if the output is different, or if editing the footage to a timeline with the output settings gives the same results. I now know that FCP does not like doing the latter. I apologise if I am missing something, and if there are instances where one would edit footage to a timeline with different specs to the footage I would be interested to know.

"That said, if you're starting from thin raster HD it may be best to do a conversion before editing for the sake of graphics/titles, and then another conversion from that master to meet the SD delivery specs."

By thin raster do you mean 1440x1080? I have never used this format before.. but just out of curiosity, why would editing 1440x1080 footage to a 1440x1080 sequence be bad for graphics/titles?

Thanks


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Andrew KimeryRe: Editing HD in a SD timeline (delivery in SD)
by on Feb 7, 2013 at 3:41:48 am

[Oscar Gotti] "I still don't see how mentioning the sizes and rates would help my question"

If, for example, your delivery was full frame 4x3 then editing HD in an SD timeline will allow you to see exactly where the 'center extraction' will occur and give you the ability to reframe if necessary. Editing in SD would also let you see what your final GFX will look like and if they need tweaking (as something with fine detail may look fine in HD but horrible in SD).




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Jeff MeyerRe: Editing HD in a SD timeline (delivery in SD)
by on Feb 7, 2013 at 7:20:20 pm

By thin raster I mean formats with wide pixels, 960x720, 1280x1080, and 1440x1080. To save space video sometimes uses non-square pixels, so a 1440x1080 image would be stretched to fill a 1920x1080 space in square pixels. This is becoming more of a legacy practice, but there's still a lot of HDV/AVCHD, P2, and XDCAM out there that can (or only) shoot(s) thin raster. The same concept applies to anamorphic SD video. Anamorphic (16x9) SD uses the same 720x480 pixel count as 4x3 SD, but it gets stretched out to fill a widescreen frame. In fact, all broadcast SD video is non-square, but only some HD video.

Since all modern tvs use square pixels, working in a 1280x720 or 1920x1080 timeline can offer slightly sharper titles than working in 1440 and stretching them out later. If your source video was 1440x1080 the ideal workflow would be using a 1920x1080 sequence, making an HD master, then converting to SD.

Also, frame rates come into play. If you have a 24PsF source how is the pulldown (encapsulating 24p inside of 30i) being handled? Is it being removed on the way in, edited in 24, then added anew on the way out? If you're just working in 30i with 24PsF video you could get some strange interlacing artifacts.

Details about the source and destination format matter. A lot. Like I said before, in general it's best to edit as you've shot, creating the best quality master possible, but there are instances where editing in the source format isn't ideal.


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jon smithertonRe: Editing HD in a SD timeline (delivery in SD)
by on Feb 7, 2013 at 11:33:51 am

I've always delivered SD programmes with HD material from an SD anamorphic timeline - then you see what you get, as sometimes there are complications with graphics downrezing and field order.
Having the bigger framesize in the SD timeline allows you to reframe and gives you the ability to go from MS to CU - which is kinda handy on reality shows when you they don't shoot enough B-roll.
Ooh and it'll be faster rendering also.
Some production house want a HD master for future proofing - so you could cut in HD, then nest sequence into a SD timeline.

Jon



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Oscar GottiRe: Editing HD in a SD timeline (delivery in SD)
by on Feb 7, 2013 at 12:36:38 pm

Hi Jon,

"Having the bigger framesize in the SD timeline allows you to reframe and gives you the ability to go from MS to CU - which is kinda handy on reality shows when you they don't shoot enough B-roll.
Ooh and it'll be faster rendering also."

Sorry I'm a bit confused... Im not sure what you mean by this, as when I put in HD 1980x1080 footage in a SD 720x576 (CCIR 601/DV PAL 5:4) anamorphic timeline, it fits perfectly fine.
Also, you say it would render faster? faster than if you put HD footage into a HD timeline?which would off require no render time at all?


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jon smithertonRe: Editing HD in a SD timeline (delivery in SD)
by on Feb 8, 2013 at 12:35:17 am

FCP is smart, it fits the HD video into the SD frame. If you double click the clip in the timeline it should say something like 53.33% - lots of room for scaling from a MS to CU.
Yeah, will render faster as when you chuck some graphics and do some grading you will need to render at some stage. And the speed difference is of course the frame size of SD being roughly quarter that of HD.
Don't forget you should be using a ProRes or Uncompressed timeline for better looking graphics and field order for PAL is upper field first.

Cheers,
Jon



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James Bayliss-SmithRe: Editing HD in a SD timeline (delivery in SD)
by on Jan 14, 2014 at 9:27:43 am

Okay so I'm coming a bit late to this and I'm using FCPX with HD 5Dmkiii footage for final delivery SD 720x576 anamorphic mp4. I'm thinking to edit in HD then use compressor presets to export to my SD delivery.

Question, If I have subtitles will the suffer in the down res? Should I down res without subtitles then do the subtitles?

Cheers


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