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iMAC I7 Jumbo Frames Finaly Enabled

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Gorazd KoncariMAC I7 Jumbo Frames Finaly Enabled
by on Apr 23, 2010 at 2:47:03 am

Hi,

After a lot of confusion about the new IMAC I7 jumbo frames
support I have done tests with two Level One USB-0401 Gigabit
adapters hooked to two USB IMAC I7 ports. The adpaters
are low cost, support jumbo frames, works under MAC OSX and WIN 7 64 Bootcamp.
I have done bond network connection under MAC OSX between
both adapters and the connection speed was around 65 MB/s
what is realy incredibile. When both adapters are connected
to different USB ports of the IMAC I7 there is no drop of
speed in any of the USB port!
Please know that IMAC I7 is also realy very fast machine
and I should never go back to previous model of IMAC for ethernet
speed!
Also this combination also works with new released MACBOOK PROs
which also might not natively support jumbo frames!

Happy editing.

Gorazd.


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Gorazd KoncarRe: iMAC I7 Jumbo Frames Finaly Enabled
by on Apr 23, 2010 at 3:00:37 am

Hi,

I have done also tests with the new Hitachi external
USB Turbo 1TB and 2TB drives which are lowest priced
on the market compared to WD ones and I was preaty amazed
about the speed. Its is exactly around 33 MB/s and is no droping!
This I until now could not get even from dedicated USB HIGH Speed
Turbo sticks (around 28 Mb/s)! Compare that to WD USB external drives speed(around 13 Mb/s) and you shall see the dramatic difference.

Best regards,

Gorazd.



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walter biscardiRe: iMAC I7 Jumbo Frames Finaly Enabled
by on Apr 23, 2010 at 10:50:54 am

[Gorazd Koncar] "I have done bond network connection under MAC OSX between
both adapters and the connection speed was around 65 MB/s
what is realy incredibile."


That's not Jumbo Frames. Are you setting the MTU to 9000 in your Ethernet Settings and then having that stick? With the i7 we had here, we could set it to 9000, but when you hit Apply it would drop back to 1500. With Jumbo Frames your speeds should be around 120MB/s. 65MB/s is really slow.

If you still have that same Broadcom Ethernet Controller I mention in my blogs, you do not have Jumbo Frames. You're seeing about the same speeds we saw on the i7 machine here. We swapped that machine out for the 3.33 27" iMac and now we're back up to 100 - 120MB/s which is where we should be.



Walter Biscardi, Jr.
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HD Post and Production
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Gorazd KoncarRe: iMAC I7 Jumbo Frames Finaly Enabled
by on Apr 23, 2010 at 11:03:29 am

Hi,

I am setting the jumbo frame support to the Level ONE adapters
and it stays 9K. The speed is limited by the USB bus but
the 65 MB/s is excellent solution with the bond between
two USB Level One sticks. Plese know that onboard IMAC ethernet
adapter speed is limited to around 24 MB/s because it does not support the jumbo frames. And in testings there were no drop
of the usb speed when both adapters were used simultanously.
So if I then put another USB stick then the speed shoud be around
90 Mb/s and I stil have one usb port free for the dedicated
marked keyboard and mouse and Shutlle PRO all hooked on the
Belkin Hub.

Best regards,

Gorazd.



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walter biscardiRe: iMAC I7 Jumbo Frames Finaly Enabled
by on Apr 23, 2010 at 11:18:00 am

[Gorazd Koncar] "The speed is limited by the USB bus but
the 65 MB/s is excellent solution with the bond between
two USB Level One sticks. Plese know that onboard IMAC ethernet
adapter speed is limited to around 24 MB/s because it does not support the jumbo frames. And in testings there were no drop"


Precisely. No Jumbo Frames on that iMac. So the title of your post is completely misleading.

You would be MUCH better off simply going with a FW800 RAID where you can easily get 125MB/s using a single cable with no reason to do this jury rig system you've created. Speed will be faster and hookup will be much easier.

This is a great attempt, but it is in no way shape or form "Enabling Jumbo Frames" on an iMac. Honestly can't see any reason to do what you're trying to do. Just wait for USB 3 to arrive and then we can all use USB for hooking up drives to edit.

If you really want to use Ethernet properly on the 27" machine, just pick up a 3.33 Core Duo 27" iMac like we did here and now we're running 115MB/s which truly does support Jumbo Frames.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

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walter biscardiRe: iMAC I7 Jumbo Frames Finaly Enabled
by on Apr 23, 2010 at 10:59:02 am

[Gorazd Koncar] "After a lot of confusion about the new IMAC I7 jumbo frames
support I have done tests with two Level One USB-0401 Gigabit
adapters hooked to two USB IMAC I7 ports."


And now I realized you're bypassing the Ethernet Port to go through two USB ports. That has nothing to do with Jumbo Frames. Jumbo Frames are enabled using the Ethernet controller on a machine. USB is giving you incredibly poor performance using your scenario. People can get 65MB/s using a single USB port and sometimes faster.

You're just using a jury rigged way to get around the ethernet port on the i7. So "Jumbo Frames" is not enabled in any way shape or form if you're bypassing the ethernet port and coming in via USB.

USB 3 (if Apple ever incorporates it) will give us speeds plenty fast enough to edit as BlackMagic was showing at NAB this past year.



[Gorazd Koncar] "Please know that IMAC I7 is also realy very fast machine
and I should never go back to previous model of IMAC for ethernet
speed!"


Again, you're getting HALF the speed you would be getting if you were truly using Jumbo Frames on an i7 iMac via Ethernet. This is not a solution for the i7 to achieve Jumbo Frames. Sorry, nice try.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

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Gorazd KoncarRe: iMAC I7 Jumbo Frames Finaly Enabled
by on Apr 23, 2010 at 11:17:14 am

Hi,

You enable the jumbo frames for the USB stick adapters and the
total bond in the MAC OSX network settings. Please know
that this Level One sticks are the only ones who actualy
support the up to 9k jumbo frames in their hardware
and when they are not manualy set to 9k they sepport 1,5k frames.
The bottleneck is the USB 2.0 bus which start at the around
33MB/s per every USB port. The good thing is that the
speed at the new IMac I7 does not drop when you use two and more sticks per every USB port as this was the case with the previous
IMACS USB ports which USB controllers were basicaly hubs
and the speed was shared between all the USB ports.
So basicaly you could achive even 120 Mb/s speed with four such
adapters and use the blueteeth hub for using the keyboard
and other usb stuff.

Best regards,

Gorazd.



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Andy MeesRe: iMAC I7 Jumbo Frames Finaly Enabled
by on Apr 23, 2010 at 1:20:06 pm

Hey Gorazd

I thought I had posted this before but I guess it didn't go through ... just wanted to thank you for taking the time and effort to share with the COW your workaround for this issue. Its very much appreciated. Good job.

Best
Andy


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Rafael AmadorRe: iMAC I7 Jumbo Frames Finaly Enabled
by on Apr 23, 2010 at 4:05:21 pm

q[walter biscardi] "USB is giving you incredibly poor performance using your scenario. People can get 65MB/s using a single USB port and sometimes faster. "
Walter,
I've never heard of USB performance close to that, neither the one you mention about FW800 (125MB/s).
How is that achieved?
rafael


http://www.nagavideo.com


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Bob ZelinRe: iMAC I7 Jumbo Frames Finaly Enabled
by on May 4, 2010 at 1:39:52 am

This is the product that is being refered to -

http://global.level1.com/product_d.php?id=1012
Supports Jumbo packet of up to 9KB
Supports suspend mode and remote wakeup via link-up and magic packet
Supports Windows 2000/XP/Vista/7, Mac 10.3/10.4/10.5


now, does this actually work ? Can you do an MTU of 9000 on an iMAC i7 with this, and get the CORRECT data stream that many of us use with ethernet connection to a drive array ? I will find out, and let you know.

Bob ZElin




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walter biscardiRe: iMAC I7 Jumbo Frames Finaly Enabled
by on May 10, 2010 at 7:08:52 pm

Ok, we can put this thread to bed now. Jumbo Frames are not enabled any way, any how on the i5 / i7 iMacs. Bob Zelin researched this further and got this response from Level One.

Hi Bob

It is confirmed that the USB-0401 does not support the jumbo frame and the info has been corrected at the website http://global.level1.com/product_d.php?id=1012

I apologized for any inconvenience

Thank you

Timmy Ngo


So if you really want to use Jumbo Frames in a 27" iMac, you need the core duo machines. That is working here so far.



Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

"Foul Water, Fiery Serpent" featuring Sigourney Weaver coming soon.

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Gorazd KoncarRe: iMAC I7 Jumbo Frames Not Enabled
by on May 10, 2010 at 10:00:11 pm

Dear Bob,

You can also try with the Level One USB-0201 adapter which is older version and which does support the 9K. The drivers for MAC OSX you can find at this page which is OEM manufacturer for this Level One adapter:
http://www.asix.com.tw/FrootAttach/driver/AX88178_Mac_OSX10.4_v2.0.5.zip

The drivers for WIN 7 64 bit you can find here:

http://www.asix.com.tw/FrootAttach/driver/AX88178_Win7_64bit_Driver_v1.14.3...

Why some of the the newest just released USB-0401 adapters
does not support the 9K is stil the question? It supposed to support it but it looks that some of the USB-0401 adapters which are for sale in the USA use the inferior chipset AX88772A instead of the superior AX88178 which for sure supports the 9K. Anyway you can always exchange the USB-0401 adapter fot the USB-0201 if your USB-0401 does not support the 9k frames. But the USB-0201 realy does support the 9K jumbo frames.

Best regards,

Gorazd.



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walter biscardiRe: iMAC I7 Jumbo Frames Not Enabled
by on May 10, 2010 at 10:10:30 pm

[Gorazd Koncar] "But the USB-0201 realy does support the 9K jumbo frames"

USB is limited to 480Mbits, so even if it did support jumbos, it would not go faster than the internal imac port.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
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HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

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Gorazd KoncarRe: iMAC I7 Jumbo Frames Not Enabled
by on May 10, 2010 at 10:28:04 pm

Hi,

It can go if you make the network bond between three or four
such adapters because every USB port on the iMac supports
full USB 2.0 speed. It does not act like HUB as the previous
generations of the computers.
You can then stil use the blueteeth mouse and the keyboard.

Best regards,

Gorazd.




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Gorazd KoncarRe: iMAC I7 Jumbo Frames Not Enabled
by on May 11, 2010 at 1:58:31 pm

Hi,

I just got also several Trendnet USB to Gigabit
apaters to test TU2-ETG HW:V1.3R and they 100%
support 9k jumbo frames. You just download
the latest drivers from:

http://www.asix.com.tw/FrootAttach/driver/AX88178_Mac_OSX10.4_v2.0.5.zip

http://www.asix.com.tw/FrootAttach/driver/AX88178_Win7_64bit_Driver_v1.14.3...

And under Win 7 64 bit system devices ASIX AX88178 enable
ethernet 9k settings. It realy works. And it has the best chipset!

Under Mac OS you enable under ethernet settings under ASIX88178 adapter the MTU to 9000.

And if you have several adapters you can make bond between them.

Best reagrds,

Gorazd.



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walter biscardiRe: iMAC I7 Jumbo Frames Finaly Enabled
by on May 11, 2010 at 2:46:54 pm

[Gorazd Koncar] "
Under Mac OS you enable under ethernet settings under ASIX88178 adapter the MTU to 9000."


Did you read my post? USB on the iMac only supports 480Mbps. So you can set the adapter all you want to 9000, you're not going to get full Jumbo Frames through the USB port.

Maybe the adapter can do it, but the i5 and i7 iMacs can't. Unless you enable Jumbo Frames through the Ethernet Port on the iMac itself and NOT through some external hardware combination, you are NOT getting Jumbo Frames through to the iMac.

That's the last I'll say about this.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
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Steve ModicaRe: iMAC I7 Jumbo Frames Finaly Enabled
by on May 18, 2010 at 7:19:29 pm

Sorry to be late in responding. I think there's a lot of confusion over the issue of jumbo frames, segmentation offload, and the new i7 performance.

The new imac (and the new Mac Book Pros) use the Broadcom 5764 chipset and it does not support jumbo frames. It supports a feature called TSO (transmit segmentation offload) that is meant to provide jumbo frame performance without the requirement of switch and partner support. Large packets get handed to the card, and it chops them up and applies headers. This saves the OS the trouble. That's all good and true enough.

On the receive side, you still receive 1500 byte packets. The receiver has to strip the headers and reassemble. This takes a lot of CPU. It generates more interrupts and more context switches. It causes more work for the server. One solution to this is receive side coalescing, but no gigabit chips today support that. (The Intel 82599 10Gb chip on our newest 10Gb card does). So for the present, when an imac is reading in video, there's 0 jumbo frame "help" so to speak. It's full on tiny packets.

As for performance, I don't have a good quantitative answer for what you lose using an i7 vs an older core 2 duo. Walter made a qualitative judgment that the older system does a better job and doesn't drop. He has some fairly complex timelines. In house, I find my older core 2 duo laptop was about on par with the new imac. I would not recommend either for serious editing. (When I say serious, I mean at least 2 active Pro Res HQ streams coming over the wire at 60MB/sec. If you are doing DV editing or something lower bandwidth than pro res, I'm sure the imac is fine)

The USB dongle sited here was tested by Bob Z and it didn't support jumbo frames. Since USB is limited to 480MBits, it's also clear it won't get us to 2 Pro Res HQ streams. So it was a non-starter for me. Even if it did jumbo frames, I would not expect to see more than 60MB/sec over the wire and with overhead, that won't guarantee two Pro Res HQ streams (although in practical use, it might be OK for short things).

So all this being said, I think if you are a pro res editor, and each stream is a reasonably large fraction of your gigabit bandwidth, you need a mac pro. If you are doing something else, imac, mac book pro, mac book, mac mini are all potential candidates for you. Just be fore-warned that they won't compare to the capability of the larger system.

One last note, I prefer it when we can get one of our gigabit cards in the client. We have tools that let us dump stats and see the state of the chips. Apple doesn't have anything like that, so when something hangs, it's very hard to debug. We've had problems like this recently. With our PCIE cards, I can dump all sorts of good stuff to see why it hung.



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Dylan MurphyRe: iMAC I7 Jumbo Frames Finaly Enabled
by on Jul 28, 2010 at 5:33:50 am

New imacs out today - anyone heard if they have a new ethernet setup (fingers crossed)


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Steve ModicaRe: iMAC I7 Jumbo Frames Finaly Enabled
by on Jul 28, 2010 at 4:17:26 pm

They specifically call out jumbos on the mac pro and they don't on the imac, so I think the imac still does not support them.


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walter biscardiRe: iMAC I7 Jumbo Frames Finaly Enabled
by on Jul 28, 2010 at 4:28:11 pm

[Dylan Murphy] "New imacs out today - anyone heard if they have a new ethernet setup (fingers crossed)"

We don't know yet. The new Mac Pro's specifically mention Jumbo Frames. The new iMacs do not. Still searching to see which Ethernet Controller is actually in the iMac.

Doesn't look good since they don't mention it.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
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Devin CraneRe: iMAC I7 Jumbo Frames Finaly Enabled
by on Aug 19, 2010 at 8:24:21 pm

Shoot, the mac mini specifically points out Jumbo Frames and the iMac does not. So what does that tell us.



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Steve ModicaRe: iMAC I7 Jumbo Frames Finaly Enabled
by on Aug 19, 2010 at 8:30:47 pm

The mac mini is still running a core 2 duo chipset. The i3-7 stuff is using the broadcom. I'm sure when the mac mini hits i5 it'll be a non-jumbo chip too :)
I did my best to let someone within apple know the benefits of jumbos. Hopefully we get them in future hardware.


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walter biscardiRe: iMAC I7 Jumbo Frames Finaly Enabled
by on Aug 19, 2010 at 9:50:35 pm

[Steve Modica] "I did my best to let someone within apple know the benefits of jumbos. Hopefully we get them in future hardware."

I did too and was informed (not very nicely I might add) from a person who shall not be named within Apple who told me we were completely wrong about how Jumbo Frames works and that the iMacs do work perfectly.

Who are we to question the great wisdom that is Apple? :)

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
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Danylo BobykRe: iMAC I7 Jumbo Frames Finaly Enabled
by on Dec 15, 2011 at 3:58:23 pm

Hey @Steve and @Walter!
Thank you guys so much for the insight! Really helps.

I have an iMac 27" i7 (with the silly T-Base10/100) NIC which suck of course. I got a USB Gigabit ethernet adaptor (with AXIS AX88178) that supports T-Base 1000.

Now, I understand that my iMac DOES NOT support jumbo packet and that the USB interface is 480Mps so I would expect transfer speeds of 30-40MB/s (or at least 20MB/s). But I only get 10-12MB/s transfer speeds which is way to slow and is the same as over WIFI.

----------------------
MY QUESTION: Is this 10-12MB/s normal?? if not, what should I expect? or how can I get better speed to my NAS?
---------------------

Any insights or advice would be greatly appreciated
(I don't really want to sell my iMac (and loose 600$ in the process) just to get one with a proper Ethernet card

FIY
Main use: Regularly backup my photography archive to QNAP NAS
Although I enabled T-Base 1000 on Gigabit adaptor and in NAS with 1500 packets.30-40MB/s would do for me as long as 1-2 TB as be transferred over night.

Thanks in advance!


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Steve ModicaRe: iMAC I7 Jumbo Frames Finaly Enabled
by on Dec 15, 2011 at 4:07:43 pm

I think the Qsnap is probably the limiting factor. If I recall correctly, those are pretty low powered. We had one in here for iSCSI testing and it wasn't very fast. I'd try connecting to another mac as a test.

Steve Modica
CTO, Small Tree Communications


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Danylo BobykRe: iMAC I7 Jumbo Frames Finaly Enabled
by on Dec 15, 2011 at 4:27:16 pm

[Steve Modica] "I think the Qsnap is probably the limiting factor. If I recall correctly, those are pretty low powered. We had one in here for iSCSI testing and it wasn't very fast. I'd try connecting to another mac as a test."

Hey Steve! Thanks for the very quick reply!
it's a QNAP 439 II + Pro (w/ atom processor) but I am transferring using AFP since iSCSI simply isn't supported for Lion and it seems like the only real option available.

---
Can it be the AFP that is limiting the speed?
---

I will do a test between my iMac and MacBook to see what speeds I get. (don't have acces to 2nd iMac)

Thanks for the help!


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Steve ModicaRe: iMAC I7 Jumbo Frames Finaly Enabled
by on Dec 15, 2011 at 5:01:00 pm

[Danylo Bobyk] "it's a QNAP 439 II + Pro (w/ atom processor) but I am transferring using AFP since iSCSI simply isn't supported for Lion and it seems like the only real option available."

It's the Atom processor. That thing has no offloads either. So you have an embedded processor (similar to what would be in an iphone) trying to drive a gigabit port, AFP and Disk IO. It's not going to go fast.

Steve Modica
CTO, Small Tree Communications


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Danylo BobykRe: iMAC I7 Jumbo Frames Finaly Enabled
by on Dec 15, 2011 at 8:12:27 pm

Thanks for the feedback!

So after trying a few things, I got speeds of 30MB/s using SMB which is much more usable then 10 ; ) and closer to the expect USB bottleneck. From what I read other qnap users get 40-65 MB/s and some 80-100MB/s which would be nice but I think it's just a matter of having a better NIC ethernet card - would have returned my iMac under warranty is only I would have know this 2 months ago ; (

Ya the processor is a Intel Atom 1.8GHz Single-core Processor 1GB ram. Would you recommend another NAS that works better than the QNAP medium-high grade models?


Anybody know whether the new iMac 27" i7 May 2011 models really support T-Base 1000 ??

Thanks!



thanks


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