FCP, Snow Leopard and Gamma
by Erik Lindahl
on
Nov 3, 2009 at 9:25:18 am
Just checking if this is a local machine issue I have or perhaps an error between FCP 6.0x and Snow Leopard… My problem is gamma, big time gamma differences in FCP vs every other application in the system as well as gamma on other systems (for instance a FCP 6.0x / Leopard machine). On FCP 6 and Snow Leopard everything is MUCH darker than it really is and when I output stuff it's shows up washed out (since I've compensated for this in FCP, which evidently is showing things wrong).
Has anyone experienced the above? Is FCP 7 a better citizen in SL-land?
I was considering this was a screen gamma correction error but everything else in the system renders fine. The only error is how FCP shows things internally. The error is much worse for ProRes than Uncompressed but both have similar tendencies of error. I'm at the moment only running PAL footage (if that matters).
Re: FCP, Snow Leopard and Gamma by Erik Lindahl on Nov 3, 2009 at 11:10:35 am
Hmm… Found another thread stating FCP 6.0 will correct the display gamma to 2.2 which ever gamma your display has… This is fine (good) when working in a 1.8 gamma situation originally but SL defaults to 2.2 gamma hence I think I'm seeing a gamma correction on something that doesn't require this…
Is this correct? How do I solve this? I actually prefer sitting in a 2.2 gamma world since most of the outside world does this as well.
Erik Lindahl
Freecloud Communication
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Re: FCP, Snow Leopard and Gamma by walter biscardi on Nov 3, 2009 at 3:23:51 pm
[Erik Lindahl]"Not an option at home "
You know how many home based editors there are these days working with broadcast monitors, film quality projectors, 5.1 surround sound workstations and the like? Yes it is an option at home.
You may not have this in your home, but the option is there.
Any external monitor is better than the Viewer Canvas in FCP. We've been saying for years on this forum to never trust the Viewer / Canvas. Heck I don't ever trust the After Effects composition screen either, I only go by the external video output via the AJA Kona boards.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author.
HD Post and Production Biscardi Creative Media
Re: FCP, Snow Leopard and Gamma by Erik Lindahl on Nov 3, 2009 at 3:38:06 pm
This is true and it is best practice but does not answer my question at all, sadly.
QUESTION: Are there gamma-issues with FCP 6.x in terms of monitoring the canvas in Snow Leopard?
From what I can see and what I've read there are severe issues. Question is if this can be sorted somehow or if FCP 7 handles the gamma issue better.
At our studio the FCP canvas and my broadcast monitor look similar - not identical but very similar. At home the FCP canvas is A LOT darker than what the image actually is when viewed on the same machine in QT Player, Color or in my studio at work (in the FCP canvas or on the broadcast monitor). The studio machine resembles QT Player at home quite well, hence the problem relies in FCP at home. The only difference is the fact I run SL at home compared to Leopard at work. This issue also worries me if we move over to SL / FCP 6 or 7 at the studio… I don't want the canvas and my reference monitors to have this massive difference in look.
I could try to take some screen-shots to really show the differences if that helps.
And again no, it's not an option for me to get a Kona card / broadcast monitor at home.
Erik Lindahl
Freecloud Communication
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Re: FCP, Snow Leopard and Gamma by Erik Lindahl on Nov 3, 2009 at 4:13:48 pm
- At home on Snow Leopard I use the standard 2.2 gamma
- At the studio on Leopard I work in 1.8 gamma.
The odd thing is:
Home FCP: Good Color Correction
QT: Washed out
Studio FCP: Washed out (similar to QT at Home)
QT: Washed out (similar to QT at Home)
I get that a 2.2 setting at home should produce a slightly darker / more contrasty image in general but it shouldn't be the massive difference i see now (and it's only in FCP I see the problem, QT and other apps only show the slight gamma difference there should be since we're talking 1.8 gamma vs 2.2 gamma).
The same thing goes for the following:
Home Color: Good Color Balance
QT: Similar to Color, looks good
FCP: Very Dark, looks bad
Perhaps just using 1.8 gamma at home will sort it given that should also render the images even brighter in QT / Color so I'm not sure about that…
I know there can be inconsistencies between apps esp. when not working in RGB but this is extreme and far beyond anything I've seen before.
Erik Lindahl
Freecloud Communication
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Re: FCP, Snow Leopard and Gamma by Erik Lindahl on Nov 3, 2009 at 4:18:03 pm
I've tried both. Setting QT7 player with the "Final Cut Studio gamma" preference rendered things slightly better but it's still miles off. The main oddity lies with-in FCP on SL. The issues was greater when using ProRes than Uncompressed media also (i.e rendering the timeline as the former or the later and comparing the two outputs). In FCP they however look the same.
Erik Lindahl
Freecloud Communication
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Re: FCP, Snow Leopard and Gamma by Jeremy Garchow on Nov 3, 2009 at 6:02:09 pm
I've been doing some playing around, and I have trashed QT prefs, set my monitor to the ColorSync profile that is set up by the OS, and turned OFF FCP color compatibility. Definitely not right, but definitely not as wrong. I noticed that if you toggle the FCP color compatibility, there's an intermediate between on and off that would be the proper gamma, but for some reason, it doesn't stick. Looks like you found a little bugaboo.
Re: FCP, Snow Leopard and Gamma by Erik Lindahl on Nov 3, 2009 at 8:03:19 pm
Bugaboo-hoo… :-)
I'll be putting FCS3 on the system at home soon for "out of office" testing so we'll see if the issue is transferred there. Note that this machine had Leopard and FCS2 installed where Snow Leopard was upgraded on top of this.
Erik Lindahl
Freecloud Communication
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Re: FCP, Snow Leopard and Gamma by Erik Lindahl on Nov 4, 2009 at 1:22:40 am
Just got FCS3 installed here and the gamma issue seems gone.
I guess it's either a FCP 6 / Snow Leopard issue or something with my setup or how I upgraded. Problem however seems solved in FCP 7. The canvas and QuickTime Player, given how in-accurate these might be, are very similar in their gamma value.
I'm a more confident Apple-camper. Let's see what the 7.01 update does to my life… :-)
Erik Lindahl
Freecloud Communication
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Re: FCP, Snow Leopard and Gamma by Scott Sheriff on Nov 4, 2009 at 9:18:35 am
[walter biscardi]"Any external monitor is better than the Viewer Canvas in FCP. We've been saying for years on this forum to never trust the Viewer / Canvas. Heck I don't ever trust the After Effects composition screen either, I only go by the external video output via the AJA Kona boards."
Yes, but only if it's properly set up. I have seen plenty of big dollar external, broadcast monitors that were calibrated wrong, or that had drifted without the operator noticing.
Scopes are less prone to operator 'influences', and are unaffected by 'eye fatigue', and don't drift. And if your show gets rejected by QC, it because of what they saw on the scope.
I would trust the internal FCP scopes and Canvas, more than an uncalibrated external monitor, given those two choices.
Just my unwanted 2 cents worth.
Re: FCP, Snow Leopard and Gamma by Erik Lindahl on Nov 11, 2009 at 9:50:33 pm
My problem solved it self after I installed Final Cut Studio 3 with Final Cut Pro 7. Probably not what you wanted to hear but that's sadly the solution I found. This sorted a bunch of gamma-related issues I had (working with non-stanard video files such as ProRes files with a 1280x800 resolution). My best tip is to get Final Cut Studio 3, the upgrade price is in the scheme of things minor.
With the error the gamma issue was so big I'm not sure just going for a ref-monitor would be "the fix". Sure it would be a possible temporary solution but I'd be irritated by the miss-match every day for sure.
I know MacOSX 10.6.2 has some FCS-specific fixes so perhaps that helps you? The other thing I would try i setting the monitor gamma to 1.8 and see if that helps (i.e. if it's a double gamma correction bug in FCP6 that doesn't take you monitor profile into context).
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Erik Lindahl
Freecloud Post Production Services
www.freecloud.se
Re: FCP, Snow Leopard and Gamma by Andrew Johnstone on Nov 23, 2009 at 3:29:56 pm
I'm very glad that I found this thread as I have been secretly going nuts.
After 10 years away from being behind the camera (pretend to produce and direct instead) on my last project I was all but budgetless and had to shoot/direct/produce etc. all by myself. It was actually great fun and I I was feeling pretty good about what I shot. Back in the studio, I fired up FCP and all my enthusiasm and thoughts like "I've still got the old magic" crumble to dust as I looked at a bunch of images which seemed a stop or so dark. Never mind, "I'll fix it all in post"..(!!).
Anyway as part of the project I had to dig out some material shot last year by my usual cameraman. All that stuff seemed dark too. A one off I thought and then I checked the files in QT. Completely different story. The images seemed fine, perfect exposures etc. I have now just checked the images I was worried about from my recent shoot in QT and bingo, perfect.
It's a mixed blessing of course. A) the images are fine by B) am going to have to fork our for FCP3 now? I was rather hoping I could avoid doing this for the moment, but it appears not.
