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1080 to 16mm

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Rafael Amador1080 to 16mm
by on Oct 10, 2009 at 5:12:54 am

Dear pals,
I have to shoot a short that will be printed to 16mm.
I've used the search function but haven't found much.
No experience in that workflow.
How should I do?
Same than in p25, but everything p24( 23,976)?
Shot, edit and master in p24, then we will send a HD somewhere with a transfer house (Hanoi, Bangkok, Singapore,..).
Any thing that I have to care about in this process?
Any tip will be highly appreciated.
It may be other forum in the COW were I can get more info about those issues.
If anybody points me there, I will appreciate it very much as well.
Best,
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Kevin MonahanRe: 1080 to 16mm
by on Oct 10, 2009 at 3:51:03 pm

I'm in the same situation with the Klaus Maria Brandauer movie I just started working on. I am going to call the house doing the laser scanning and find out exactly what they want. What they have to say is more important.

Kevin Monahan
60 Blu-ray Templates for Final Cut Studio 2009
http://www.fcpworld.com
Author - Motion Graphics and Effects in Final Cut Pro


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David Roth WeissRe: 1080 to 16mm
by on Oct 10, 2009 at 6:22:49 pm

Always a great idea to get the perfect specs from the facility who will handle your filmout as they all do it a bit differently. However, consider contacting Arnie Schilssel, who is now working full time at a facility that does nothing but filmouts all day long. Arnie is constantly fixing projects on which everything was done wrong from the get go, so he's becoming quite expert on both the proper and improper workflows. I'm sure he will be happy to help you both get started on the right foot. Later, you can get the absolute specs from your respective film labs, but you will at least get things started properly.

BTW, Arnie's email is arnie at arniepix dot com.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Michael GissingRe: 1080 to 16mm
by on Oct 10, 2009 at 9:46:20 pm


Rafael, It is possible to use a 25 fps workflow for film out. In the end it is a frame for frame process. You work with PAL all the time so there is no learning curve, sound post is uncomplicated and all that needs to be done is the final sound track needs a pitch alteration to compensate for 24 frame projection. Avoiding 24 versus 23.976 is advisable.

Unfortunately sound on 16mm is awful. Mono optical and really poor quality. Finding a facility to scan to film is important though to find out the file formats they want. You might want to consider sending the job to Australia. I have contacts in Sydney who do this sort of work and understand a 25 fps workflow. Let me know if you want contact details and also if you want the audio pitch corrected which I can do.


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Neil SadwelkarRe: 1080 to 16mm
by on Oct 11, 2009 at 11:13:12 am

I'm not sure you can actually output to 16mm from digital files. Most Arrilaser and other recorders can only record to 35mm film. What is your application of recording out to 16mm?

Depending on where you are located, you could consider shipping your files out to Mumbai, India where we have a fair number of Arrilaser recorders and even one Cinevator recorder. The Cinevator records to 35mm Internegative or Positive print stock. It records at 24fps so its real time. With print stock it can even record sound simultaneously - stereo or Dolby Digital. So you get a direct print.

You should do your post at 24fps, viz. 1080p24. You could do it as 25fps 1080p25 if you need to incorporate other older 25fps PAL material. If you do work at 25fps all you need to do is to make your final sound 24fps or 4% slower. If you are unsure of how to do that, you can send the lab the final film and 25fps sound and they will process it to 24fps for you.


-----------------------------------
Neil Sadwelkar
neilsadwelkar.blogspot.com
twitter: fcpguru
FCP Editor, Edit systems consultant
Mumbai India


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Rafael AmadorArnie!! Where are you? (1080 to 16mm)
by on Oct 11, 2009 at 1:32:14 pm

Hi Kevin, David, Michael and Neil,
Thanks for your infos and opinions.
No much doubts about the p24 and p25 workflows.
Mostly as David points i would like to know if there are some "do not".
I will work in SMTP 709 and let the lab deal with that.
Bat I have some question (no answer in the Color Forum):
Should be "Broadcast Safe" a clip to be printed to film?
There is some where in the process that will clip my "under 0s" and 'over 100s" ?
My instinct tells me that I should set the Blacks and let the lab deal with the whites.
Another question:
Safe areas. I guess the digital picture is fully printed. Not a single line lost.
But no sure.
From here I call Arnie to see if gives me some tips.
Sydney or Mumbai would be great for the printing, and to catch a glimpse of the big industry.
I'm afraid this is a null budget production.
I'm in fact letting my camera to the people of the Lao National Film Archive. Probably will end up printed in Hanoi. I know that there are good professionals and with good equipments, but I don't know if I will have any chance to supervise the process.
Thanks again,
rafa
PS: I've prefer to ask Arnie here so his wisdom can be shared here in the COW.





http://www.nagavideo.com


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Neil SadwelkarRe: Arnie!! Where are you? (1080 to 16mm)
by on Oct 11, 2009 at 1:53:36 pm

What is your budget for the film out?
How long is the final film?
And what will it cost to print in Hanoi?
And cost of film stock?

We do mostly mainstream Indian film work, but occasionally we also support PSAs and indie films. particularly those that deal with social issues - AIDS, education, drinking water etc - so we do work at reduced rates and throw in some freebies.

Write me at my email address as we could figure it out for you.


-----------------------------------
Neil Sadwelkar
neilsadwelkar.blogspot.com
twitter: fcpguru
FCP Editor, Edit systems consultant
Mumbai India


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Rafael AmadorRe: Arnie!! Where are you? (1080 to 16mm)
by on Oct 11, 2009 at 2:59:49 pm

Hi Neil,
Thanks a lot.
I have no much details yet.
This week I will meet the lao team.
I'll write you.
Best,
Rafael


http://www.nagavideo.com


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David Roth WeissRe: Arnie!! Where are you? (1080 to 16mm)
by on Oct 11, 2009 at 6:25:39 pm

[Neil Sadwelkar] "we also support PSAs and indie films. particularly those that deal with social issues - AIDS, education, drinking water etc - so we do work at reduced rates and throw in some freebies.

Write me at my email address as we could figure it out for you. "


What a nice offer nice Neil. I hope Rafael's project qualifies. That would be cool to know that far flung Cows all over the world are doing good things together.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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David Roth WeissRe: Arnie!! Where are you? (1080 to 16mm)
by on Oct 11, 2009 at 6:50:24 pm

[Rafael Amador] "PS: I've prefer to ask Arnie here so his wisdom can be shared here in the COW. "

I wrote Arnie about this yesterday Rafael and have not heard back, so he must be on vacation, because he usually responds to emails almost instantly.

Meanwhile, I hope you and Neil can work together. Neil clearly has lots of experience in this area.

And BTW, geart idea to start thinking about your blacks and whites from the very start, as that is where most filmouts suffer.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Rafael AmadorRe: Arnie!! Where are you? (1080 to 16mm)
by on Oct 12, 2009 at 9:03:57 am

David,
The production won't be much according to the industry standards, but I know will be more fun.
Is the first time in 7 years that I don't have to write, shot, cut, mix, print..and drive.
I just will help them to set the camera. We will record with the NANO that is also exciting for me.
Will be an interesting experience. Most of the people involved in film making here where formed in Russia, Vietnam and Cuba and some of them took part in big productions.
I will try to take it easy and shoot them with my PD-170.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Arnie SchlisselRe: Arnie!! Where are you? (1080 to 16mm)
by on Oct 13, 2009 at 4:33:55 am

Sorry if I'm late, I was away for the weekend at a friend's wedding.

First things first, yes, we can shoot your film out to 16mm. We can also do super 16.

Why do you need 16mm? Are you sure you need 16mm? Plenty of people all over the world still shoot 16mm for various reasons, but in the US, at least, there's no longer any pipeline to distribute 16mm- all of the markets that once projected 16mm now project from DVD, tape or Blu-Ray. Where you are in SE Asia, that may not yet be the case. But all of our recent outputs to 16mm have been for art installations, not theatrical.

If you want to shoot & work at 25P, do so. We simply pull that down frame for frame to 24. It preserves all of the original quality and slows your film down by 4%. If you edit at 25, mix at 25. Audio gets pulled down to 24 when the optical soundtrack is made.

Color grading in Rec 709 color space is fine. Don't apply broadcast safe. Film has a lot more headroom for whites than video, so it's ok to set them above 100IRE. Watch your blacks, though. Detail in the blacks falls off quickly, so don't crunch your blacks down too hard.

Safe areas- the same standards of 5% and 10% can be used. Be aware that the edges often get cut off in projection, much like they do in broadcast.

The Cinevator is a good lower cost alternative for one off 35mm prints. But it doesn't make a negative, so additional prints actually cost more than they would from a DI negative.

You can email me direct if you want to talk budget or other details- arniepix at arniepix dot com

Arnie

Post production is not an afterthought!
http://www.arniepix.com/


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Rafael AmadorRe: Arnie!! Where are you? (1080 to 16mm)
by on Oct 14, 2009 at 1:50:47 am

Hi Arnie,
Thanks for the tips. The levels is most of my concern.
The 16mm was a misunderstanding of my self. The short will be print to 35mm.
We just started to prepare the shooting so I will have many questions arising during the production.
Cheers,
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Arnie SchlisselRe: Arnie!! Where are you? (1080 to 16mm)
by on Oct 15, 2009 at 1:39:44 pm

[Rafael Amador] "The 16mm was a misunderstanding of my self. The short will be print to 35mm."

Waaaay better. I can understand 35, but 16 was puzzling!

Are they planing to print it as 1.85 aspect ratio? If so, remember that your top & bottom are slightly cutoff from 16x9. Remember to allow a little extra head room. We usually just print the 16x9 straight to the negative and let the projector gate cut it off.

If they want "scope", we usually print shorts flat with a 2.35 matte, since shorts will be shown in groups, and festivals will not change the projector lens for 1 short. Features we would print anamorphic.

Arnie

Post production is not an afterthought!
http://www.arniepix.com/


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Rafael AmadorRe: Arnie!! Where are you? (1080 to 16mm)
by on Oct 15, 2009 at 4:38:57 pm

Hi Arnie,
Thanks for those extra tips.
II'm reading everything I find in Internet. No much any way.
Cheers,
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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