Building a new edit/finishing suite.
by Loren White
on
Sep 2, 2009 at 9:14:16 pm
Hello,
I'm building a new edit/finishing suite.
I'm really interested in the Aja Kona 3 vs Blackmagic Decklink Extreme debate.
Can anyone vouch for the BMD Decklink extreme? The cost savings open up the budget for a good grading display.
I'm working with a lot of 2k stuff and need the card to be able to output 2k as 1080p for monitoring on 1080 HD displays...apparently the LHi can not to this. (otherwise that would be a great choice.)
I'm also curious about storage.. It seems like one could build a 6TB 8bay RAID array at a quarter of the cost of an already built raid.
Re: Building a new edit/finishing suite. by Bob Zelin on Sep 2, 2009 at 9:35:38 pm
"The cost savings open up the budget for a good grading display. "
The BMD Decklink Extreme is $945 at B&H. The Kona 3 is $2379.
This is a $1434 difference. Please tell me how you intend to buy a color grading LCD monitor for $1434 ? Do you know how much hi end LCD monitors cost ?
If you are doing real work, and are not doing a school project, or school film, or spec music videos, I think that you will want a product that actually works, is reliable, and will not crap out on you when it comes time to deliver your work to the client, and get paid (you are charging for your work, aren't you?).
But you make the final decision. Sometimes cheap can be very expensive - especially when the client never wants to take your phone calls, after your first disaster.
Re: Building a new edit/finishing suite. by Loren White on Sep 2, 2009 at 10:08:18 pm
I should mention this is for personal use and small projects that I do on the side,
at work I use a 2000 series cine-tal. And yes, for clients who have the money to throw at a facility, thats fine.
For this setup I'll be getting the 2405w that FSI offers. (if I ever need to.. I can go check the picture at work)
This is a system for people who need to go independent, and need someone who can quote them appropriately, hence the need to build a system for cheaper, for the ability to charge them less.
Although I did enjoy the seminar you gave for maxx digital at lafcpug a while back.
(sorry if the thought of someone building a system on there own offends you)
Re: Building a new edit/finishing suite. by Arnie Schlissel on Sep 2, 2009 at 11:53:59 pm
[Bob Zelin]"This is a $1434 difference. Please tell me how you intend to buy a color grading LCD monitor for $1434 ?"
A used PVM20L5 can be had for less than that. OK, it's not an LCD, it's a CRT. Better blacks, no interlace issues.
[Bob Zelin]"If you are doing real work, and are not doing a school project, or school film, or spec music videos, I think that you will want a product that actually works, is reliable, and will not crap out on you when it comes time to deliver your work to the client, and get paid (you are charging for your work, aren't you?)."
Now, this makes sense, & I agree with it. But there's a certain level of client who is very difficult to educate on this point. All that client cares about is price. And when you try to point out how much all your experience and properly calibrated equipment is worth, they tell you that their nephew can see it fine on his laptop screen with his bootleg copy of FCP or Avid.
This is where the client services department is brought in to make the sale.
Arnie
Post production is not an afterthought!
http://www.arniepix.com/
Re: Building a new edit/finishing suite. by gary adcock on Sep 3, 2009 at 1:41:36 am
[Arnie Schlissel]"A used PVM20L5 can be had for less than that. OK, it's not an LCD, it's a CRT. Better blacks, no interlace issues."
But at only a max of 800 lines of rez it is not an HD display, nor will it properly show the REC 709 color space.
E-Cinema posted this graphic on an older version of their website and I was not able to find it so I will post my copy of the colorimeter settings of the PVM monitors for HD usage, note that they DO NOT show the full rec 709 color space.
image is courtesy E-Cinema Systems.
gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL
Re: Building a new edit/finishing suite. by Shane Ross on Sep 2, 2009 at 9:37:30 pm
NO experience with the new BDM stuff. But the Kona 3 does 2K well. The LHi would not be suited for this.
As for storage...do you really want to "cheap out?" I mean, you are dealing with 2K and CLIENTS, right? Do you want something that you build (meaning add drives too), or something that has a reputation of working and has great technical support behind it?
Go Maxxdigital, Caldigit, Active Storage XRaid...something solid. You want stability and piece of mind...and you are working with 2K! Do you think they "cheaped out" in production? Doubt it.
Anything that should convice me to go with a g-raid or maxx digital? "
What RAID card would you use? Do you want RAID 5?
Keep in mind that integrated storage companies like those you mentioned don't compete on price, they compete on service and on providing a total package. The customers they focus on aren't freelancers, they are typically bigger shops that are willing to pay for immediate support and problem resolution. Bigger shops don't have time to mess around with testing, integration of parts from different vendors or troubleshooting. They just want a complete, turnkey solution that works right out of the box, with one number to call if there's a problem. If you aren't under these kind of restrictions and you're fairly tech savvy, then you can save money. The downside is that if you have any problems, it's up to you to determine the cause and fix it yourself.
If you're building a suite and you're working on 2K material, why the penny pinching? You should be able to charge enough to pay for good equipment, and spend your time focusing on art and not technology.
Re: Building a new edit/finishing suite. by nick hasson on Sep 2, 2009 at 10:13:32 pm
Building your own raid will work, some times. I have tried to build my own drives a ton of times. After a few failures, i gave in and bought cal digit HDpro. It was worth the pennies. I installed that raid and have not done a thing since. I have finished ten feature films on it this year. The guys at cal digit are great and cant say enough about there company.
I have both a BMD and Kona. If all you are going to do 2k work, the kona wins. 2k to hd, the kona is always smooth, BMD not so much. For HD only, the bmd will work great.
Re: Building a new edit/finishing suite. by Loren White on Sep 2, 2009 at 10:16:26 pm
You'd be surprised by how many people are running around with RED cameras shooting 2k and need someone to finish the film/video at indie prices. I actually work with more 2k than 1080, because of the RED.
We've got $16,000 for the package, got if the BMD does the job.. Im not gonna waste money.
Re: Building a new edit/finishing suite. by gary adcock on Sep 2, 2009 at 10:28:40 pm
[Loren White]"We've got $16,000 for the package, got if the BMD does the job.. Im not gonna waste money. "
Yeah but who does RED recommend for hardware?
its about the time you will not waste when something goes wrong, its about working in FCP using the same hardware that Avid uses for DS Nitris and Autodesk uses for Lustre and Flames workstations.
It's about saving time...
gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL
Re: Building a new edit/finishing suite. by gary adcock on Sep 2, 2009 at 10:22:22 pm
[Loren White]"I'm really interested in the Aja Kona 3 vs Blackmagic Decklink Extreme debate. Can anyone vouch for the BMD Decklink extreme? The cost savings open up the budget for a good grading display. "
OK explain to me how $2000USD can get you a "good grading" monitor.
a field monitor yes, grading no...
gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL
Re: Building a new edit/finishing suite. by nick hasson on Sep 2, 2009 at 10:41:09 pm
Ahh, everyone has the talons out tonight.
I should have said, that $2,000 could go towards something else within the budget of the system. (not necessarily a grading display)
the FSI and the panasonic 11 series plasma will do fine for this suites purposes.
I'm not the kind to just buy something because "its just better".. Give me a benchmark or someone who has experienced it hands on.
For example, G drives use hitachi or toshiba drives inside of there enclosures.. why should I be sold an enclosure?
Building your own raid will work, but when it breaks, your the guys that has to fix it. Buy parts for it and get them installed before your deadline. I have build many raids and all of them have failed at some point. Leaving me to find the correct drive, get it shipped overnight and pay for that. Then find out that was not the problem, sorry clients, i went cheap, now i have to order another part, wait for a day, pay for overnight shipping and hope it fixes the problem.
With a vendor raid, you make one call and they help figure out what it is, overnight you the part, and at no cost to you.
And yes I have lived that story a few times.
As far as monitors go, the panny plasma are nice, but with a kona card you will want to monitor SDI. That card is 1500, plus 1700 for the monitor (40in). Your better off with the FSI monitor.
You can get something like the BM hdlink to convert SDI to HDMI and feed the plasma that way. The only problem is that you can see strange things from that conversion. The thing kind pulses in 24p. And that will run you 700 for it.
Re: Building a new edit/finishing suite. by Mike Most on Sep 3, 2009 at 12:02:05 am
The Kona LHI has HDMI on board as well. If you don't need dual link - and it doesn't sound like you do - it's a very nice choice, at almost the same price as the BM Decklink Extreme, as it does some of the cross conversion tricks that Konas do very well.
I strongly agree about the Panasonic Series 11 plasma. Take some care to set it up correctly (calling in someone who calibrates monitors for a living is a good investment) and it's far superior to any current LCD. There's a reason why every major post facility in Los Angeles has rejected LCD's and embraced Panasonic plasmas as their CRT replacement.
Re: Building a new edit/finishing suite. by Arnie Schlissel on Sep 3, 2009 at 12:24:10 am
[Loren White]"I'm really interested in the Aja Kona 3 vs Blackmagic Decklink Extreme debate.
Can anyone vouch for the BMD Decklink extreme?"
I have used both cards. Both cards deliver more or less what they advertise. Both work well and are reliable.
Buy the Kona.
Aja has better software. the control panel is easier to use and allows you to configure the card much faster and more easily. Plus, I get to decide which input or output I want to downconvert or upconvert, so it's not a mystery only to be solved by arbitrarily connecting, disconnecting and reconnecting until I accidentally find the one that works the way I want it to.
Aja TV is worth the $1700 difference, alone. Why should I have to open up FCP every time I want to see something play out on my broadcast monitor?
And I really shouldn't have to look up my serial number every time I want to update my driver. If I didn't own the card, I really wouldn't need the driver now, would I?
And then there's the break out box. It seems like a little thing, only 1RU high, but in reality, it really saves you a lot of time and effort when you need to connect or disconnect anything. why should I have to crawl around under a desk to do that? There's dustballs down there! And it doesn't get tangled!
And the ins and outs on the Aja are labeled. Which means that I don't need to consult the manual when I decide to rewire something.
[Loren White]"http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816111092 this enclosure
with 8 $100 TB drives is right around $1,000."
Regardless of which enclosure you buy, you will also need to buy a SAS controller from either Atto or Areca. There are no other brands that are reliable for HD and 2k. That will set you back somewhere in the neighborhood of $1k or more.
Arnie
Post production is not an afterthought!
http://www.arniepix.com/
Re: Building a new edit/finishing suite. by walter biscardi on Sep 3, 2009 at 2:37:27 am
[Loren White]"I'm really interested in the Aja Kona 3 vs Blackmagic Decklink Extreme debate.
Can anyone vouch for the BMD Decklink extreme? The cost savings open up the budget for a good grading display. "
I can vouch for the AJA Kona 3. Does everything it says it does in realtime and full broadcast quality. 2k display with RED is really good in Color.
[Loren White]"I'm working with a lot of 2k stuff and need the card to be able to output 2k as 1080p for monitoring on 1080 HD displays...apparently the LHi can not to this. (otherwise that would be a great choice.) "
Can't go wrong with FSI monitors for monitoring. We run the 2450W's and 1760W here and right now FSI is running a Labor Day sale. Also some really good savings on B Stock 2540W's too.
[Loren White]"I'm also curious about storage.. It seems like one could build a 6TB 8bay RAID array at a quarter of the cost of an already built raid. "
Which you will support yourself. I always recommend pre-built RAIDs so you get full manufacturer support from one company and not multiples. I use and recommend Maxx Digital RAIDs right now, though Sonnet and Dulce make very good products as well. We run the original Evo HD RAIDs (two 8TB units) and their new Evo 2 HD (16TB unit) and they are just plain reliable.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author.
Credits include multiple Emmy, Telly, Aurora and Peabody Awards.
Owner, Biscardi Creative Media featuring HD Post Biscardi Creative Media
Creative Cow Forum Host:
Apple Final Cut Pro, Apple Motion, Apple Color, AJA Kona, Business & Marketing, Maxx Digital.
Re: Building a new edit/finishing suite. by Bob Zelin on Sep 3, 2009 at 12:48:27 pm
Loren,
please don't make decisions based on "what's the cheapest thing I can buy". We all know very well that the best Hitachi Enterprise drive is $139, and we all cry for "cheaper cheaper cheaper". But support is more important than anything - because one day, you will get in trouble, and you will need support.
I HATE the idea of "indy" guys who will blow their entire budget on production with a RED package, and then have zero dollars left for post production, audio, color grading, etc. You know what these "producers" deserve - NOTHING ! Don't support people that have taken all the money, and given it to the guy that owns the RED camera - you deserve half the budget he had to shoot with for the feature. The RED package owner is not giving away his camera package with lenses, tripods, etc. Buy the right gear, do the right job, charge the right price. Don't give away your services, or your equipment.
Re: Building a new edit/finishing suite. by Arnie Schlissel on Sep 3, 2009 at 12:59:14 pm
[Bob Zelin]"I HATE the idea of "indy" guys who will blow their entire budget on production with a RED package, and then have zero dollars left for post production, audio, color grading, etc. You know what these "producers" deserve - NOTHING"
That sounds like the clients that I work with! I'm inclined to agree with Bob.
Arnie
Post production is not an afterthought!
http://www.arniepix.com/
Re: Building a new edit/finishing suite. by Jake Zalutsky on Sep 16, 2009 at 3:33:52 am
I just had to toss my 2 cents in on this. I work in commercial/music video...I am young, and generally thus far handle projects in the 5-25k range, so very low budget.
It sucks budgets are down and people arn't willing to give out money to do things proper (Try even getting 20 grand to make a good music video)...but really...if something is going anywhere short of a film screen, the difference between a 1080P pro res workflow through a $5,000 system and a uncompressed 2k workflow on screen is pretty much negligible, no average viewer in their right mind could tell a difference. Why should I spend all this money to get in a fancy edit suite and pay a bunch of people to deal with my footage and the finishing when I can do it at home. I would rather put that money toward something like art direction. That is the reality of 2009, I think to be perfectly honest older people are hinging on a system of the past where equipment was far less accessible and far more expensive and they want to get paid, Its tough on the industry, but definitely the reality so its gotta work itself out somehow.
sorry to push this thread totally off topic but it didn't seem to be going anywhere else anyways.
