FCP 7 Shortcomings
by David Cooke
on
Jul 24, 2009 at 2:17:22 pm
I know this shouldn't be a forum for griping, but looks like we need to point out
a few "shortfalls" at APPLE.
Our shop hasn't bought FCP 7, BUT 2 HUGE mistakes by Apple, at least from our region of the country. NO LIVETYPE. We use that everyday! Easy program that is
far more robust than many give it credit for. But No Blue-Ray support in DVD
Studio Pro is the biggest concern. I know NUMEROUS long-time apple users with
smaller shops that are considering switching to the Adobe family, YES a PC! because of client's asking for them. Apple has been known for being "out there on the cutting edge, being the first to introduce a newer way to do things, and newer
hardware. But unfortunately, I hate to see Apple acting like the PC world
with their total abandonment of the Power PC! WE used to brag to our PC friends how
we were still using MACs made in 1994! Anybody got about 3 Grand just laying
around for a new MAC they might want to lend me? I know a little humor, VERY
little!
Dissappointed.
Re: FCP 7 Shortcomings by chris gormlie on Jul 24, 2009 at 2:38:16 pm
My initial feelings where the same, and certainly it sounds like your client demands are very like mine.
However, looking into things a bit more, what Apple have given us in terms of blu-ray 'authoring' while on the surface not as WYSIWYG as DVDSP is more than capable of producing BLU-RAY disks on a par with Encore and dvditproHD. The XML nature of the 'templating' will result soon enough in a WYSIWYG design plugin.
If you need to expand the capabilities into AACS/ISAN/CMF for replication, there are a number of sub $400 'premaster' solutions that will take care of that for you.
Re: FCP 7 Shortcomings by walter biscardi on Jul 24, 2009 at 3:05:14 pm
[David Cooke]"But No Blue-Ray support in DVD
Studio Pro is the biggest concern. I know NUMEROUS long-time apple users with
smaller shops that are considering switching to the Adobe family, YES a PC! because of client's asking for them. Apple has been known for being "out there on the cutting edge, being the first to introduce a newer way to do things, and newer
hardware. "
Man oh man, all this blu-ray griping is getting old. Who cares what Apple wants to do. Those folks who switch to Adobe will discover just how crappy Encore is with Blu-Ray. (Read my blog for more)
If you need BluRay professional authoring then buy a solution and pay for it with your first job. I did this 24 MONTHS AGO. We use Compressor to create the MPEG-2's and if we need a "Play Only" disc, we use Encore. If we need a professionally authored BluRay disc, we use DoStudio that runs on a PC. Yep, it required a PC, my client required a BluRay disc, we purchased the correct professional tool to do the job.
So Apple doesn't fully support BluRay the way you want them to. And? Get the proper tool for the job or hand your BluRay jobs to someone else who has the proper equipment.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author.
Credits include multiple Emmy, Telly, Aurora and Peabody Awards. Biscardi Creative Media
Creative Cow Forum Host:
Apple Final Cut Pro, Apple Motion, Apple Color, AJA Kona, Business & Marketing, Maxx Digital.
Re: FCP 7 Shortcomings by John Christie on Jul 24, 2009 at 4:35:54 pm
Walter
I know you're happy with your solution. But for a lot of people, the "studio" in Final Cut Studio refers to a suite of tools that will solve all their needs. Our company hasn't done a lot of blu-ray work yet, but we do a lot of menu intensive work in DVDSP. It would be a shame to throw away all the knowledge we've learned in DVDSP over the years and switch to another program.
We've all looked to Apple over the years to provide us with cutting edge software and hardware.
I started working with Final Cut at version 1.2. It was a killer app with some rough edges that changed the way I edited and changed the rules of post-production.
Remember how excited we all were when DVD studio pro came out? Here was an app that competed with Sonic's $10 K solution and blew it out of the water for around $499.
Same with Motion, another great app that didn't replace After Effects, but gives it a run for it's money. We use Motion a lot. With 12 edit suites it would be too expensive to put AE in every suite, but Motion is put to use every day.
There are some cool new features in FCP 7 that I'm excited about trying. But once users start to look outside the FCS world for different apps to complete a job that FCS used to do, that's the thin edge of the wedge for developers to un-seat FCS as a leading edge package. We've seen FCS accommodate every new shooting format that's come along in the last 10 years.
Aja, Decklink and even the good old Cinewave that you and I used to use, have given us the hardware bits and pieces we need to edit with state of the art gear.
Compressor has kept up with all the new media formats we have to deliver in.
So that's why it's sad to see that Final Cut Studio has lost that cutting edge feel, by not keeping up with the latest disc delivery format. Sure, you can do simple blu-ray in FCP 7, about the same as what I can do in Toast. I expected Apple to wow us once again and change the way we look at post, but that hasn't happened, yet.
Re: FCP 7 Shortcomings by Matt Gerard on Jul 24, 2009 at 4:44:28 pm
Yep. Instead of bitching about what Apple ISN'T doing for you, go find the tool that does the job the way you want. You threaten to leave apple for Adobe? Yeah, good luck with that. You think Apple cares?
Also, if Apple incorporated full BluRAy capablities including BD recorders/players in the MacPro, the price woud go WAAAAYYYY up, as posted in various articles and quoted by many Apple execs that the BluRay licensing is a nightmare, and quite an expensive one at that. Would you crab about it more if they did include it but at a cost of 25% higher price? I think so.
You pick hardware components that suit your needs the best, cameras, lenses, mics, mixers, all that. I dont hear any bitching that your new Panasonic camera doesn't shoot XDCAM files or vice versa.
I was bummed about no update to DVDSP as well, but you know what I said? "Aww carp, that's too bad. Now what shot was I looking for? *mark in, mark out, F10...*"
ENOUGH ALREADY! Move on.
Matt
Its more fun to ride a slow motorcycle fast than a fast motorcycle slow...
Re: FCP 7 Shortcomings by Ronnie James on Jul 24, 2009 at 10:24:18 pm
[Chris Poisson]"With today's DVD players, SD discs look just fine, with many of them doing an uprez when playing. So who needs BluRay? I say it's bunk."
Huh? You're joking, right? You really need to check out some well-mastered Blu-Ray on something bigger than a 40" monitor. Good old SD-DVD just looks so...blech to me now.
Re: FCP 7 Shortcomings by Eric Susch on Jul 24, 2009 at 10:58:02 pm
I think you can say that you don't care about the difference between DVD and Bluray discs but to say that there's NO difference is just ridiculous. BluRay is A LOT better. I call DVDs "blur-o-vision" now.
Re: FCP 7 Shortcomings by Erik Lindahl on Jul 25, 2009 at 12:59:23 pm
Yep. Instead of bitching about what Apple ISN'T doing for you, go find the tool that does the job the way you want. You threaten to leave apple for Adobe? Yeah, good luck with that. You think Apple cares? That's a pretty sad view at things. Of course Apple should care if they loose people, this is the exact reason AVID lost people to Apple 10 years ago or why QUARK lost people to Adobe. The moment you loose your passion and cutting edge is a time where you risk loosing loyal customers at the bleeding edge.
Personally I don't care about BluRay support but I do care about other aspects of Final Cut's short comings. And it's frustrating when after 2 1/2 years little is "sorted". I think this is something people get ticked off by.
Erik Lindahl
Freecloud Communication
------------------------
Re: FCP 7 Shortcomings by Joe Murray on Jul 25, 2009 at 8:32:45 pm
"...the BluRay licensing is a nightmare, and quite an expensive one at that. Would you crab about it more if they did include it but at a cost of 25% higher price? I think so. "
Um....no....I don't think anyone would fault Apple for adding $100 for the additional cost of licensing Blu-ray technology into DVD Studio Pro. Or even $300 if you're referring to 25% of the full studio package price. $300 is a very cheap price for the added features of this upgrade, but people who use Adobe CS3 are shelling out $600 for the upgrade to that package. I wouldn't complain about paying more if I got more.
Re: FCP 7 Shortcomings by Jason Lyons on Jul 24, 2009 at 5:17:39 pm
While I greatly appreciate and agree with Walter's position on the Blu-ray issue, there is nothing wrong with expressing the desire and expectation of what a "Pro" app should be. This update has made me continue to question Apple's long term commitment to their Pro-Apps. To me this update seems to be a pat of fresh frosting on a steadily molding cake.
Final Cut Studio wasn't even on Apple's front page as a featured [trumpet fanfare] tada here's what you've been waiting for for 2 years, but instead was treated like a sidelined second thought "... no no no you Pro-Apps stay over here in the corner, yes that's right Final Cut Studio you and Logic share this space over here we have to sell more iPhones up there on the big billboard."
FCP Studio is still a functional toolset, and I bet there are many of us who use it as a primary toolset who would be willing to cough up some serious bucks if a tool was offered that would provide support for, to name a few; Greater media management, more true real-time functionality or background rendering , multi-core aware (yeah I know Snow Leopard is coming), native support for things like MXF, XDCAM proxy workflow, robust media management, More customizable user interface.........
Re: FCP 7 Shortcomings by Ronnie James on Jul 24, 2009 at 10:26:40 pm
[jason levy]"I wonder if they finally fixed media manager? I'd buy it just for that and never mind the other stuff."
I've been using MM for years with some pretty complicated timelines and never EVER had a problem. I don't think Apple can fix user error, which is probably your problem.
Re: FCP 7 Shortcomings by jason levy on Jul 25, 2009 at 4:33:16 am
The biggest problem is that it does not handle speed changes correctly when consolidating. You'll find lots of posts to that effect if you put down your nintendo and do a search. Thanks for your comment. Now go back to bed.
Re: FCP 7 Shortcomings by Erik Lindahl on Jul 25, 2009 at 1:56:41 pm
I've had 2-3 hour "sessions" with Apple Reps regarding bugs with the media manager. It can bug out severely esp. with sequences that use speed effects. I've learnt what works and doesn't in general but that's not something one should have to do. Sometimes it's user error but in regards of the MM, I'd say it's a large part produkt failure and limitations.
Erik Lindahl
Freecloud Communication
------------------------
Re: FCP 7 Shortcomings by Greg Pilon on Jul 24, 2009 at 8:15:07 pm
When I went to NAB this year, it seemed like everyone was introducing 4k Red support for Red. We have it Color, but not in FCP. I thought it was impressive to see a laptop running adobe bringing in R3D footage at 4k, and having a proxy button sitting there to rez down to be able to play the footage live. Apple was working with Red before Adobe, and since NAB, Adobe has a superior Red workflow and still does after this new revision. I feel the same way about the pro apps. The new phone takes precedence over FCP, even when its been out for a month. I think the only reason I will stay is because I know FCP so well, and comfortable with it, but I will see what happens in September with snow leopard. It's just that the argument that Apple makes so much money on ipods and phones, is tough to argue that they may slip into consumer products for making cool home videos and youtube support. It's not far fetched to say that can happen, and I don't fault Apple either way. It's their prerogative, and not impossible but I have to prepare myself for that. I love the update for Color in that it works the way we all wished it would, but I would say new version didn't really run thru barriers either. I believe Apple can still push the edges of creativity and technology like they have in the past, to me the question still remains will they?
Re: FCP 7 Shortcomings by neil kueh on Jul 25, 2009 at 3:24:51 am
i have to agree
buy the tools for the job, nobody makes a box that does everything
but perhaps you can just buy a copy of DoStudio and a Blu-ray external device
as the software will happily run on your Mac using Bootcamp. I dont think
you need to shell out for a PC
Re: FCP 7 Shortcomings by Wayne Carey on Jul 24, 2009 at 6:41:58 pm
Ok, David... I can't let this go past me without saying something...
Fine, leave FCP and go to Adobe. FCS 3's full price is what? $999. Adobe's Creative Suite full price? $1699.
Hmmm..... That's $700 difference. Hmmmm.... And it's not near as friendly or industry standardized as much as FCS has gotten.
So, let me ask you this. How many multi-level BluRay discs do you make for clients? Do you ALWAYS create BluRay disc with lots of menus and lots of features? Or do you do lots of one-offs for client approval?
Listen to Walter, Encore's BluRay has a lot to be desired. Personally, for the one-offs I use Roxio's Toast to make my BluRay discs.
As for LiveType, what kind of work do you do that absolutely requires LiveType? Have you tried Motion? Did you know that if you have text that need to changed within you Motion projects, you can do this from within FCP? You don't have to do any round tripping. Sure, the animation effects aren't as easy as LiveType's but they are getting so very out-dated (the ones I see being used).
Before knocking FCS3 down and complaining until you burst a blood vessel in your neck, give it a try... The upgrade is $300 cheaper that Adobe's. Check it out.
_______________________________
Wayne Carey
Schazam Productions
http://web.mac.com/schazamproductions
schazamproductions@mac.com
Re: FCP 7 Shortcomings by Richard Dee on Jul 24, 2009 at 8:07:52 pm
Quite a few features, including the new ProRes codecs and beter support for timeline into Color are quite good. I think everyone was looking for one "kiiler" feature to really round out the upgrade. If they had just given us background rendering, I think this would have sealed the deal in almost everyones mind. Perhaps Snow Leopard will allow this feature to added with a free point upgrade?
Re: FCP 7 Shortcomings by Christopher Wright on Jul 24, 2009 at 8:19:15 pm
To be fair you get a lot more useful, essential programs with Adobe Production Premium than you do with the FCP suite. Every post house I know uses After Effects, Photoshop and Illustrator in their day to day work. Also the Flash app is used daily by almost all professional web designers. If you had to buy solo licenses for these programs alone you would be well over $1,699.00. In my mind the "freebies" in Adobe studio are PPro and Encore, as well as the useful field recording tool, On Location. We are talking "apples" and oranges here.
As far as the statement (go ahead and go to Adobe, see if Apple cares...) that is a dangerous attitude to take for any company. Many people may just do that, and never look back...
Dual 2.5 G5, IO, Kona LH, IO, Medea Raid, UL4D, NVidia 6800, 4Gig RAM
Octocore 8 GB Ram, Radeon card, MBP, MXO
Windows Vista Adobe Studio CS4, Vegas 8.0, Lightwave 9.3, Sound Forge 9, Acid Pro 7, Continuum 5, Boris Red 4, Combustion 2008, Sapphire Effects
Re: FCP 7 Shortcomings by Greg Pilon on Jul 24, 2009 at 8:57:04 pm
Honestly, Go to Apples Home Page and that says it all. Most everyone here probably works on marketing projects on some level. When your new ground breaking product comes out, you showcase it. Instead the same phone picture is up from the last few weeks. To me, this shows where their priority ranks. It's kind of red flag for me in a way, hopefully I am wrong and they continue to push the envelope with the Final Cut Studio Suite. I am just scared that the floor drops out kind of like Shake. There some rumors that this would have a compositing feature added or something, but I don't see that or the new "phenomena" which has been rumored for a while. This is just an observation, which could totally be off base, but I would sure like to know from someone who works in the pro apps area what the truth is.
Re: FCP 7 Shortcomings by Helmut Kobler on Jul 25, 2009 at 8:25:35 pm
Whether or not Final Cut Studio is getting prominent placement on Apple's home page is not a good measure of Apple's "priorities" towards the software.
When I go to General Electric's site, I don't see their new jet engine on the home page either, and yet, GE is highly committed to jet engines. When I go to Sony's web site, I don't see any of its pro cameras on the home page, but clearly, Sony is very dedicated to its camera business.
Apple's home page attracts a certain audience, and Final Cut Studio users represent only a tiny fraction of that audience, which is why FCS doesn't get top billing. So what if you have to navigate a few pages to get to the Final Cut web site? It's a good site and very detailed.
Anyway, if you want to get alarmed by Apple's commitment to the software, I would ask why it took 28 months to develop only a moderate upgrade. That's a better measure of commitment. Apple will never publicly say, but there could be a few reasons:
1) Maybe Apple is re-inventing the whole editing app suite, and has had to dedicate a lot of the team to R&D, instead of production.
2) Maybe Apple wanted to turbo charge iPhone development over the last couple of years and found it quicker/easier to borrow engineers from other areas of the company, instead of hiring legions of new people all at once.
3) Or indeed, maybe Apple is getting lazy and not taking FInal Cut as seriously as before (though I doubt that).
Who knows. I think we'll get a better idea by the time FCS 4 is ready...
Re: FCP 7 and Livetype by david bogie on Jul 24, 2009 at 9:35:57 pm
[David Cooke]"ur shop hasn't bought FCP 7, BUT 2 HUGE mistakes by Apple, at least from our region of the country. NO LIVETYPE. We use that everyday! Easy program that is
far more robust than many give it credit for. "
LT's basic function has been rolled in to Motion, for sure.
But no one has said you have to dump Livetype. I do not have my new FCS package yet but a guy ought to be able to leave Livetype intact or reinstall it using a package uncoupler like Pacifist. Maybe the FCX installer doesn't write over LiveType, no reason for it to.
Re: FCP 7 and Livetype by Chris Williams on Jul 24, 2009 at 10:01:22 pm
I didn't even know that it came out until a friend of mine, who doesn't even edit video, saw it and emailed me. No email from Apple. I don't know if you guys and gals got an email saying that it came out, but I was expecting better notification on this.
I got an e-mail yesterday (28th) from a company (Future Media Concepts) asking me to join in on some courses for final cut pro 7.
I was like WHAT !!!!!!!
directly went to apple site and still saw the iphone on the homepage. Then I was confused and a little bit diapointed.
scrolled down and saw the shiny white box.
I checked the apple site alomost everyday until WWDC when they anouced snow leopard. So I thought they would upgrade it after snow leopard came out.
But still can't really complain. I bought FCS 1 3 months before FCS 2 came out. Very frustrated I dicided to skip FCS 2 and make money wit this one. Then last year it got tricky working in team or for company's that had fcs 2 and the xml transfers wich were always a bit messy.
But now I see I can upgrade for only 299€ after I saved up 800€ for the upgrade from 1 to 3.
Not the best upgrade (2 => 3).
Still for 299€ I get Color, upgraded programs, prores, etc in a nice FCS 2+.
If multi processor awareness is there then it is a FCB3 (or FCS as apple want to call it now)
I'll still have some projects to do and then I 'll go get FCS(3) with Leopard and do a full clean new install from Leopard and FCS.
curious question.
In FCS 2 wre there improvements to the speed change quality in fcp?
Now I use twixtor but it is quit a render hog.
thankx and may all your final cut dreams come thru.
Re: FCP 7 Shortcomings by Bob Fitzgerald on Jul 25, 2009 at 3:16:43 am
I'm running FCP6 on a G5 PowerPC and shooting Panasonic P2. I'm generally happy but I've been struggling more and more with the situation that most P2 utility aps now require an Intel based Mac. (eg shotput, proxymill, Panasonic P2CMS, FCP's avchd log and transfer).
This is probably the straw that break my back as to get workflow productivity benefits I have to now weigh up investing in a new Mac or going to PC and Adobe. As I own and run a PC for non video editing aps the cost to buy Adobe is less than that of buying a new Mac and an FCP7 upgrade.
Re: FCP 7 Shortcomings by Russell Lasson on Jul 25, 2009 at 2:53:58 pm
We'll miss you Bob! But you've got to pony up the cash if you want to be part of the club.
As a note, the new intel computers make a gigantic difference in performance. If you haven't upgraded to a new tower, then you were really missing out.
-Russ
Russell Lasson
Colorist/Digital Cinema Specialist
Color Mill
Salt Lake City, UT
www.colormill.net
Re: FCP 7 Shortcomings by Dennis Radeke on Jul 26, 2009 at 10:13:55 am
"This is probably the straw that break my back as to get workflow productivity benefits I have to now weigh up investing in a new Mac or going to PC and Adobe."
This is always curious to me that people think they have to go to a PC to use Adobe products. Adobe suites have been cross platform (including video apps) for 2 versions now. You do NOT have to go to a PC to do video editing for Adobe (or Avid for that matter).
Re: FCP 7 Shortcomings by arc nevada on Jul 27, 2009 at 6:23:09 pm
Dennis Radeke,
I agree. I think that is another plus for Avid and Adobe. They do indeed work on both Mac and PC.
I find the threads that cut down Adobe CS4 to be chidlish. Folks, forget CS4 even existed. Why wouldn't you want or even expect Blu-Ray support? HD is indeed here. It is 2009 not 1999. FCS should be a complete package form start to finish.
If you folks like FCS that is OK but if it has a few short commings be honest about them rather than bashing Adobe. Bashing Adobe will not make FSC any better.
Re: FCP 7 Shortcomings by Matt Gerard on Jul 27, 2009 at 6:34:55 pm
In the end, if he screwdriver doesn't work, get a different screwdriver.
Yes, FCP left alot to be desired in the latest release, but when did anyone ever put out a new version of software and you proclaimed "Dangit, this has everything I ever needed and wanted, and all my quibbles about it are gone!"? Don't hear that too often.
Premier Pro is indeed a player in this, and along with Encore can do some things that FCP and DVDSP can't. But, that's why I use AE for some things, and Motion for others. Our shop used Encore to make some BluRay discs for a client, and while it wasn't the walk in the park we wanted, we got it to work, and it worked great for our needs. Would it have been nice to do it in DVDSP? Absolutley.
And, as I think about it, I made a comment about people crabbing about raising the price 25% if Apple included BluRay stuff into FCP, and i though that people wouldn't go for it. I am doing something that doesn't happen on this forum much. I am changing my opinion. I would definatly pay more for BluRay support. But, just because I don't like some things about FCP doesn't mean I'm going to jump ship.
Plus I have other grudges against Premier.
OK, back to work.
Its more fun to ride a slow motorcycle fast than a fast motorcycle slow...
Re: FCP 7 Shortcomings by arc nevada on Jul 27, 2009 at 6:49:51 pm
Matt Gerard,
I doubt many user will jump ship to Adobe. I agree there are work arounds but what if Encore, DoStudio and Vegas did not exist? Like I said it is 2009 and Blu-Ray is here.
I do agree to some extent with what you wrote because FCS does work. I just don't think bashing Adobe is wise. I know your were not bashing Adobe.
This thread would be valid if it were 2007 but Blu Ray has won the HD war and there are really no excuses for Apple. Every FCS user should be able to admit that. I know some can but others can not. I am sorry if I offended anyone but other programs have indeed had Blu-Ray support for years. It can be done.
Re: FCP 7 Shortcomings by Steve Dillbeck on Aug 13, 2009 at 8:45:44 pm
Love my intel Mac Pro, Seamless (tapeless) P2 workflow.
I use both FCS2 and Adobe Master Collection CS4 together all on my MAC Pro everyday and can't imagine it any other way.
If I could get Motion to work like After effects and not crash or freeze up, if I could render H264 to .f4v from Compressor like I do in Adobe media encoder, maybe then I could get by with out half of the Adobe creative suite.
"LOVE" Apple, but everyone needs photoshop and illustrator! if there is any hope for graphic design... apple has nothing on these products.
I pray that Apple has plans to keep pushing their Pro apps forward, I am demoing AUTODESK Smoke/flame this week, looks like Japanese... UGH!
FCS2, CS4 Master collection, Cinema 4D R11, MAC Pro 8 core 10GB, Panasonic HPX 170.
Re: FCP 7 Shortcomings by Joe Murray on Aug 14, 2009 at 12:57:03 am
Having worked on Smoke for several years, I would jump at the chance to get back on it for finishing work. It's an extremely efficient interface and is a truly integrated suite of tools - no "roundtripping" required. If you're in a market that can support the cost of one of those systems, give it a chance.
Re: FCP 7 Shortcomings by Tom Wolsky on Aug 14, 2009 at 1:14:57 am
How long a show have you cut on Smoke?
All the best,
Tom
Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP6," "Basic Training for FCS2" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Author: "Final Cut Pro 5 Editing Essentials" and "Final Cut Express 4 Editing Workshop"
Re: FCP 7 Shortcomings by Joe Murray on Aug 14, 2009 at 1:22:11 am
I wouldn't use Smoke for basic editorial, but for finishing and effects, when the client is over the shoulder or the deadline is really tight. Although if you count Fire, I have finished a 1 hour PBS special in HD on Smoke's big brother.
Re: FCP 7 Shortcomings by Matt Gerard on Aug 14, 2009 at 12:26:50 pm
My old place bought a smoke and I got to play around with it. I did the tuts an messed with some projects. You gotta think totally different when working with it. I didn't get the chance to become comfortable with it, but I could see where it would be great for alot of things. Plus knowing arcane operating systems is a plus if you don't have a tech support staff ;-)
Matt
Its more fun to ride a slow motorcycle fast than a fast motorcycle slow...
