New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled?
by Ben Holmes
on
Oct 16, 2008 at 10:52:37 am
So I've been thinking a lot about a new laptop purchase.
To be honest, there's no point buying a new MBP (I have a 2.33Ghz MBP at the moment) and if I want faster GFX, I use a Mac Pro. Obviously this will be a different decision for different people.
Since getting the MBP, I've been lugging it around as a personal machine, and using it a little for FCP and Motion on the go - it's a great machine for that. It's just a little big, and honestly I don't like bashing around something this expensive (insured though it is).
I've long wanted a portable the size of the Macbook for this - big storage for the music library and photos I take everywhere, screen just right for all sorts of work - I used to have a Powerbook 12" and to be honest I found the screen a little small - I'm not a big fan of netbooks for this reason. It would also mean I could bench the MBP and only travel with it when I needed a mobile edit with my IO HD. Be good for years to come then.
The only thing that stopped me was the Intel integrated gfx on the MacBook. It did not allow you to run FCS. Whilst this would never be a main edit machine, there are always times I want to fire up Motion for a little inspiration and prep - or a home movie for the kids.
So I was thrilled when the new MacBook appeared - looks to be everything I needed. NVidia gfx that (although technically integrated) appears to be compatible with FCS (which pointedly only mentions in the specs that you can't use machines with INTEL integrated graphics). I was absolutely on the verge of increasing the national debt with my credit card when I notice they dropped firewire.
What?
Why?
What purpose could Apple possibly serve by dropping a cheap and well supported port off a $1299 laptop. That's not exactly Dell money is it? The same port they have championed for years and refer to in relation to camcorders all the time? The protocol that gives proper, continuous data transfer for video, unlike USB2.
Two arguments have been put forward: 1) FW400 is also gone from the MBP - but that's covered with the FW800 port - after all, it shared a bus with the FW800 port on the old MBP, so it was pretty redundant anyway. 2) Many modern camcorders use USB. Well, a small but growing proportion of domestic camcorders, especially AVC ones, use USB. But that's still cutting off a lot of camcorder owners - the majority in fact. As well as almost ALL professional and Prosumer cameras.
So why did they do it? Pretty simple as far as I can tell. They just want me to spend $800 more on a laptop I don't yet need. It's a simple fact that by adding decent graphics they opened up the MacBooks to Pro Apps - so they hobbled it by removing the only option to connect a proper media drive. I think that sucks. Steve Jobs made a point in his speech the other day of saying they were offering today for $1299 what they offered before for $1999. No.
This may rank as a low point in the history of Apple and Pro users. Dropping firewire was a deliberate attempt to cajole pros (who like me have a number of FW drives and devices) into purchasing the much more expensive laptops. Thing is - I would have bought both. Not now - so it just cost Apple $1299 (actually £950 over here). I wonder how many firewire ports that is?
Ben
PS - I'm fully aware that this ain't exactly a crisis on a par with the National Debt. Just a little rant...
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Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Ben Holmes on Oct 16, 2008 at 1:07:23 pm
[walter biscardi]"There's a long thread down below that already covers a lot of your talking points. "
I saw that Walter - I posted in it! I know the lack of FW came up in it, but that's not my point here. My point is WHY they dropped it. I cannot see any other sane reason other than the one I outlined. Maybe I'm just paranoid...
Oh - no, Apple ARE out to get me.
;)
Ben
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Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by walter biscardi on Oct 16, 2008 at 7:44:34 pm
[Ben Holmes]"I saw that Walter - I posted in it! I know the lack of FW came up in it, but that's not my point here. My point is WHY they dropped it."
The MacBook is a consumer product. Consumers don't use Firewire, at least not very many of them. Nobody in my family, none of my friends even know what Firewire is. They all use USB devices in their homes. Even their video cameras all have USB outputs on them these days.
Only the folks I know professionally use any sort of FW devices. So removing the Firewire creates more of a difference between the MacBook and the Pro.
Don't see why it's a big deal. If you want to edit on the thing with Firewire, then get the Pro. I'm not going to edit on a 13" laptop with or without Firewire. I'm especially not going to edit on a laptop with a glossy screen so that takes out both of those.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Paul Dickin on Oct 16, 2008 at 12:42:37 pm
Hi
The FW-loss fuss from the video crowd ain't nothing compared to the music/audio-tech crowd's howls. :-(
A lot of it directly to http://www.apple.com/feedback/macbook.html The audio interface industry is just now by-passing PCIe in favour of FW....
However David Roth Weiss and others here have been saying for months (years) that buying into FW technology for video is investing in an EOL technology. Which I totally agree with.
Apple over the last decade has never been a company that listens to its customers. It is proud of its abilities to take its product range into unimagined territory - where no feedback process could conceivably take them, confident that users will welcome their new-found opportunities...
Apple chucks away technology as freely as it invents - the abandonment of the serial port and floppy disks 10 years ago was just as catastrophic for music hardware/software users. SCSI's more or less gone gone gone.
Video production Mac users have spent the last 5 years bemoaning the lack of the 4th PCI slot that disappeared with the demise of the G4 tower range. Did Apple listen?
The trouble, this time, is that the dots just don't join up for us to move on easily. :-(
USB isn't a viable alternative for (some) video or (most) audio professionals.
eSATA cable technology is as limiting as SCSI was before it - useable in fixed installations but impossibly inflexible for on-the-move use.
Cabled Gig-Ethernet is beset by old-fashioned/inappropriate protocols for high-bandwidth streaming workflows, and wi-fi is still too primitive.
But. Just as it was about floppies 10 years ago, so today its dead on the money to aim for simple uncluttered mainly-wireless technologies for the average, majority, user-base. I reckon.
We just need high-bandwidth/low latency network protocols to come along and it can all work out for the best for everybody. :-)
Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Ben Holmes on Oct 16, 2008 at 1:13:17 pm
Interesting points Paul. I don't buy into FW being EOL though - FW3200 proves it's got life in it, and FW800 is a perfect interface for mobile video - capable of dealing with HD (compressed), daisy-chainable (take that, eSATA) and robust. Backward compatibility is a boon too.
I don't really want to get into a discussion here about the merits of FW - in a way I think it's tangential to the here-and-now. It's still the most used interface amongst pro users. So, once again -WHY DROP IT? Easy - Apple wants $2000 from you, not $1300. I note this was not an issue when the Macbooks were incapable of running Apple's pro video suite. I wonder what has changed...
Ben
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Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Paul Dickin on Oct 16, 2008 at 1:27:28 pm
[Ben Holmes]"WHY DROP IT?" Hi
Because the NVIDEA chipset doesn't do
FireWire S800T (IEEE 1394c-2006) - FireWire ... enhanced to share gigabit Category 5e cable...
automatic negotiation that allows the same port to connect to either IEEE Std 1394 or IEEE 802.3 (Ethernet) devices." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FireWire
Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Winston A. Cely on Oct 16, 2008 at 1:26:22 pm
I'm still not understanding all the fuss over the loss of FW400. The company I worked for in Seattle (and I carry this policy now) stopped using FW400 for capture, or video drive space well over 3 years ago. As mentioned in the earlier thread, there's an ExpressCard slot if you need FW400 and there are adapters for FW400 to FW800 if you want to use that ExpressCard slot for something else. With all do respect to those who still use FW400 specifically, it's time to move on. Mobile editing can be handled quite well with eSata as many manufactures offer hot-swappable solutions for this connectivity. The IoHD is FW800 so capture on the go with these new 'books should be a snap.
Fact of the matter is that FW400 should have been put out to low-end consumer devices long ago to make way for FW800 to be the new standard. I'm sure there are some technically reasons (probably heat or power consumption) that kept this from happening sooner, but it's happening now so kudos to Apple for finally taking these steps.
Again, just IMHO. :D
Winston A. Cely
Editor/Owner | Della St. Media, LLC
Sound it out: Nu-clear, not nu-cu-lar.
Mac Pro 3GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon
4 GB RAM | Final Cut Studio 5.1.4 | Aja Kona LHe
Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Ken Summerall on Oct 16, 2008 at 1:49:13 pm
Winston,
While all of your points are true and well taken they do not apply to Ben's original question. The truth is that there is NO FW at all on the new MacBooks. The pro versions have it, but not the consimer version.
Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Winston A. Cely on Oct 16, 2008 at 2:11:58 pm
I gotcha. My misunderstanding!!!! Sorry. :(
Thing is, the Macbook is a consumer book and not geared for professional applications. I don't think there's any real need for FW on consumer level products. USB2.x will do everything at that level that you would need done; backups, music storage, recreational photography, consumer-level video capture, etc. If you need FW400/800 chances are the Macbook's not going to hack it for you anyway, certainly not in the long run anyway.
Winston A. Cely
Editor/Owner | Della St. Media, LLC
Sound it out: Nu-clear, not nu-cu-lar.
Mac Pro 3GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon
4 GB RAM | Final Cut Studio 5.1.4 | Aja Kona LHe
Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Ben Holmes on Oct 16, 2008 at 3:02:24 pm
Winston
USB2 is no good for video capture/playback, as it sends data in packets, not continuously. It's also not supported by the vast majority of consumer camcorders, unlike firewire. Even setting aside someone like me, who has bought into the entire Mac spectrum (I currently own a Mac Mini, iMac, MBP, and several Mac Pros) that's a lot of consumers and prosumers to diss.
Again - ask yourself 'why drop it'. If it's because the NVidia chipset does not support it, then how is FW800 implemented on the new MBP? It certainly doesn't require the 'other' gfx chip to be enabled to use firewire AFAIK.
Nope, sorry - this was a cold hard business decision by Apple to create an affordable MacBook Pro (one as I said that I and others would have bought instantly as a second machine) but then remove a key feature to maintain sales of the pro machines - because honestly, from a video point of view, setting aside Motion or Color (for which I recommend a tower anyway) the new MacBook would probably have done everything you would have needed it to, if it had a proper interface. Without it, unless you're a gamer, it's just an over-priced laptop to many many people.
Ben
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Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Ken Summerall on Oct 16, 2008 at 3:26:24 pm
Ben,
I think that both you and Winston are right here. The problem is that you are looking at the macBook through the eyes of a pro, not a consumer. The MB is by all accounts a consumer machine. It is intended to be bought and used by the consumer. Same thing with the iMac, it is a consumer machine. Now that does not mean that professional are not using these machines, but that is a little like off-label prescription drug use. To get all hot and bothered because a consumer level machine does not have what you need as a pro is little ridiculous. I know that I am going against the flow here but who cares.
Is this another LISA moment for Apple? I doubt it. Look at what they have done in the past few years. After the release of several products a lot of folks have whined and cried and said that Apple had dissed someone or that they had made a bone headed move that may spell the end of the company. They released iPods with no firewire, did that stop the sale of iPods? Nope. They released the iPhone with no 3G, did that stop the sale of iPhones? Nope?
OK, enough of this. I have work to do. Pro work on Pro machines. I'll keep my Mini to do stuff like post on forums.
Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Winston A. Cely on Oct 16, 2008 at 3:37:08 pm
I see what you're saying about there still not being enough consumer camcorders that use USB as a digital interface with computers. Maybe that's going to change, maybe not. Of course, most of the people putting up videos nowadays can just use their digital camera or digital SLR to capture video and use that via USB. (Take a look at Canon's 5D MarkII as an example of where I think the future of video and still imaging is going).
I think Apple sees that the interface between video devices and computers is changing. Sure, in the short term this could be a drawback to many who want to use their existing FW capable camcorder, but it also opens the door for others to come to the rescue as far as solutions between old and new are concerned. If Apple sees changes in the market on the horizon, why not be a leader in the field?
Apple's spent a lot of time and money creating iApps that don't need the bandwidth that their (and others) pro apps need. Using an external drive for your video with iApps is really not necessary so there's really no need for FW in that respect.
There are plenty of significant differences between the Macbook and the Macbook Pro to justify one being geared to consumers and one geared to pros. Maybe they aren't as big as they should be, but these are first versions of these computers anyway and things are bound to evolve as they always do.
Cheers!
Winston A. Cely
Editor/Owner | Della St. Media, LLC
Sound it out: Nu-clear, not nu-cu-lar.
Mac Pro 3GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon
4 GB RAM | Final Cut Studio 5.1.4 | Aja Kona LHe
Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Ben Holmes on Oct 16, 2008 at 4:02:10 pm
Yes - I could forsee the 'market leader' argument - I'm sure that's how Apple will spin this. As it's impossible to say what Apple's actual motives are, there is nothing to be proved here - and I agree with everything you have said on one level. I think the decision Apple made to drop FW on the iPods is the most compelling argument - but that's due to the fact that PC manufacturers don't like paying the FireWire royalties that go to - er - Apple. It gets to add the ports for free on their own laptops!
As the previous poster said, these are not PRO machines, but that distinction is now really only in Apple's heads. The Macbook is now a perfectly capable laptop with decent graphics. I'm afraid you're just not going to convince me they chose NOW (when the iMac now has FW800 on it - another consumer machine, but then there's no iMac Pro is there?!) to remove a port that served many pros and consumers without considering the damage the new MacBooks would do to sales of the MBP. My guess is many pro users (especially those working in audio AND video) would have decided that the new Macbook would do - so Apple took a decision to push them towards the Pro machines.
Shame - as I said, I think it cost them a market. Certainly cost them a little more of my money!
On the plus side - I just noticed that refurb 17" MBP's are selling for big discounts on the UK Apple store - I can pick up one for less than the cost of that new Macbook actually... ;)
Ben
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Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Winston A. Cely on Oct 16, 2008 at 4:17:36 pm
I have a tendency to like refurbs better myself. They may be an older model, but they're also proven in reliability which is always a plus when you've got clients with deadlines. :) And most of the time, you can still get Apple Care with 'em!
Winston A. Cely
Editor/Owner | Della St. Media, LLC
Sound it out: Nu-clear, not nu-cu-lar.
Mac Pro 3GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon
4 GB RAM | Final Cut Studio 5.1.4 | Aja Kona LHe
Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Ben Holmes on Oct 16, 2008 at 4:50:51 pm
Well, they DID remove it - it was on the old Macbook. Saying the product has no firewire on it because it wouldn't fit, is frankly laughable... Sorry.
Ben
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Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Gabe Thorburn on Oct 16, 2008 at 6:06:35 pm
The bottom line here is that Apple needed to separate the Pro line from the consumer line, and they did in the wrong way.
Why can't they separate the two like they've always done, with processor power, larger HD capacity, RAM capacity, graphics power, screen size. The MBP already has lots of pro options that the MacBook doesn't have such as an Express card slot and larger screen size.
All of Apple's computers should cater to all creative professionals in some basic way. Firewire was the way. I remember the good 'ole days when I had a G5 tower, iMac, powerbook, ibook all in the same office, and I could plug a Firewire HD into any one and do FCP video editing on anyone. Firewire is what made Apple great for video production.
Now, with the new MB, you can't even connect a DV / HDV camera to capture video. USB 2.0 doesn't cut it. THis is very disappointing not so much for the Pro user, but for those who can't afford a MBP and want to use the MB as their machine to edit on.
I used to have an iBook G4 1.4 GHZ that I used to edit with. It was great. I got rid of it in hopes to get a MacBook, but they denied the use of FCS on it with the Intel graphics card. This video editing let-down on Apple products started with the 1st gen. of MacBooks
Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Todd Beabout on Oct 16, 2008 at 6:35:00 pm
FWIW, lack of FireWire on the MB is a Deal-Breaker for me. The end.
I'm sticking with my last-gen white MB. It handles FCP just fine BTW, even though is isn't technically compatible. I do not use Motion or Color on it though...
Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Andrew Kimery on Oct 16, 2008 at 6:15:32 pm
[Winston A. Cely]"Apple's spent a lot of time and money creating iApps that don't need the bandwidth that their (and others) pro apps need. Using an external drive for your video with iApps is really not necessary so there's really no need for FW in that respect. " The iApps, and Final Cut Express, actually need as much or more storage bandwidth when dealing w/consumer camera formats than the ProApps. iMovie has no native support for any HD camera format (unlike FCP which supports HDV natively) so it converts both AVCHD and HDV into AIC. While this makes life easier on the CPU during editing it balloons the file size to around 50gigs an hour for 1080i60. How many people would recommend editing a 100Mbit codec on a laptop's internal 5400 RPM system drive? I think it's fairly clear that Apple removed a ubiquitous feature from it's low-end laptops to protect it's high-end laptops to the detriment of all potential users. So long Target Disk Mode, so long easy to use Migration Assistant, so long convenient bus-powered HDDs.
Speaking of protecting itself, now that Apple is gone grown more into consumer electronics and media distribution they are starting to 'pull a Sony' and hamstringing one aspect of their business to project another. For example, Apple's stance on Blu-ray. Back in the day Apple was one of the first to make DVD burners available and a leader in desktop DVD authoring. But when asked about Blu-ray Steve jobs recently said, “It’s great to watch the movies, but the licensing of the tech is so complex, we’re waiting till things settle down and Blu-ray takes off in the marketplace.” Which of course means Apple wants you to use the iTMS to get your entertainment even if that drives Pro users away from the Mac platform. If Roxio can figure out the 'complex' licensing issues I'm sure Apple can too. Apple is willing to live on the bleeding edge of consumer camera technology by only supporting USB based cameras on it's low-end laptops but when it comes to Blu-ray they are taking a wait and see approach? Please...
Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Rennie Klymyk on Oct 16, 2008 at 7:45:57 pm
[Andrew Kimery]" If Roxio can figure out the 'complex' licensing issues I'm sure Apple can too."
It wasn't so much Roxio figuring out anything but more like Roxio being swallowed up by Sonic Solutions who's sole market has been high end DVD authoring for 10 years. Scenarist is the only other pro-level bluray app to compete neck and neck with Sony who is new in this area. Sonic scenarist had their foot in the doors of all major studios already and we all have noticed how Sony can't focus in any particular market but rather competes with everyone for everything. Hey, maybe with Sony Blu-Print now vieing for scenarist's market share Apple is sitting back planning to buy Sonic after Sony squeezes them down. They are certainly in a position to toss a few wrenches in their spokes. I can see it now, Apple Scenarist... part of the new FCS3 suite.
"thou can not stir a flower without crumbling a star" ......Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by walter biscardi on Oct 16, 2008 at 7:53:47 pm
[Andrew Kimery]"But when asked about Blu-ray Steve jobs recently said, “It’s great to watch the movies, but the licensing of the tech is so complex, we’re waiting till things settle down and Blu-ray takes off in the marketplace.” Which of course means Apple wants you to use the iTMS to get your entertainment even if that drives Pro users away from the Mac platform. If Roxio can figure out the 'complex' licensing issues I'm sure Apple can too."
Go read my blog about Adobe Encore CS3 and BluRay. The licensing part of it isn't the problem. Making a reliable BluRay authoring software is. We spent 12 months trying to make Encore work as Adobe claimed it would, and it never did. I've lost over $12,000 because of Encore and now Adobe is inviting me to buy CS4 because they've fixed all the problems we pointed out. So it actually works now.
If Apple doesn't want to support BluRay right now, that's fine by me. We now have NetBlender's DoStudio which does work as advertised and we're authoring multiple titles. When Apple is finally ready, I hope they learn the lesson from Adobe and ensure they actually can make a properly working authoring tool BEFORE they release it to the public. It's a LOT more complex than creating a DVD Authoring tool.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Andrew Kimery on Oct 16, 2008 at 9:20:36 pm
Rennie,
I was just using Roxio as an example. There are other companies that offer BR capabilities on some level (playback movies, author movies, or just burn files onto BR discs) and if they can do it so can Apple. I wouldn't be surprised though if Apple did wait until a BR software company was ripe for the picking as Apples MO leans more towards acquisition than in-house development.
Walter,
I'm very aware of your struggles w/Encore (although I can't remember if the PC version is as problematic as the Mac version) and I'm glad you've found a better solution. The more trails you blaze the easier you make it on the rest of us. :)
My point w/the Blu-Ray rant was that Apple refusing to support BR on any level (playback, authoring, data storage, etc.,) isn't because they can't it's because they don't want to. And, IMO, a big reason they don't want to is to protect their net-based media distribution efforts.
Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Jeremy Garchow on Oct 16, 2008 at 10:07:26 pm
[Andrew Kimery]"And, IMO, a big reason they don't want to is to protect their net-based media distribution efforts. "
What does this have to do with anything? If I made a BluRay disc in DVDSP (if it was possible) or Encore, what does that have to do with Apple's download service from iTunes? Nothing at all, really. All major movie studios are going to release their movies on BluRay anyway. Not ramping up to support BluRay right now is not going to help or hurt iTunes movie sales. Also, as of right now, there's exactly one BluRay burner that I know of for a Mac. In order to get that integrated into the OS, Apple has to license the BluRay tech from Sony. Not sure if that's something they want to do and it will do nothing but drive the cost of their computers up. Not only do they have to pay for the burner, but they have build in the software capable of burning to BluRay to make it as easy as it is to do right now with the OS's finder (i.e., no other software needed). Sure, maybe they could make a build to order option, but I bet people would balk at the cost. Also, I doubt you could have a BluRay player that is also the equivalent of the SuperDrive (meaning able to burn regular DVDs and CDs). It's an in between time right now and we have to wait it out.
I truly believe the Steve Jobs is right. The licensing to produce BluRay DVDs is very very complex. Have you tried to get a BluRay professionally replicated (not copied but professionally replicated and stamped)? It's not easy and it certainly isn't cheap and a lot of that cost is the licensing of the BluRay name, not to mention the fact it's hard to find places that will do it for you.
I bet it could be done today, but it couldn't be done the way Apple wants it. It's a fact of life that that's the way the company is run and I am surprised people still bitch about it. They do things Apple's way, and that's it. Take it or leave it. There's always Linux or windows.
Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by walter biscardi on Oct 16, 2008 at 10:35:33 pm
[Jeremy Garchow]"Also, as of right now, there's exactly one BluRay burner that I know of for a Mac. "
There's at least two that I know of, not including the external LaCie.
[Jeremy Garchow]"In order to get that integrated into the OS, Apple has to license the BluRay tech from Sony. Not sure if that's something they want to do and it will do nothing but drive the cost of their computers up."
It can't be that expensive. Our fully loaded HP Workstation with the BluRay burner included was only $1,700. I don't think you have to license anything from Sony for the BluRay player, it's the authoring software. Our BluRay burner for the Mac was only $540.
[Jeremy Garchow]"Not only do they have to pay for the burner, but they have build in the software capable of burning to BluRay to make it as easy as it is to do right now with the OS's finder (i.e., no other software needed)"
They really don't even need to do that. Roxio Toast has been able to burn to BluRay disc for two years now. It just shows up as a 25 or 50GB BluRay disc and you can burn data to it just like you do any CD or DVD.
[Jeremy Garchow]"I truly believe the Steve Jobs is right. The licensing to produce BluRay DVDs is very very complex. Have you tried to get a BluRay professionally replicated (not copied but professionally replicated and stamped)? It's not easy and it certainly isn't cheap and a lot of that cost is the licensing of the BluRay name, not to mention the fact it's hard to find places that will do it for you. "
The licensing is not complex. The actual authoring software is complex. DoStudio does allow you to get professionally replicatable discs for only $250 per month to license, on a month to month license. In fact we got a call from one of the commercial BluRay replication houses to let us know about this software. They had tested it and it actually works to spec. It's a great low cost option for boutique shops like mine.
It's now quite easy to find BluRay replication houses. Certainly much easier than it was 14 months ago when we started authoring BluRay discs here.
[Jeremy Garchow]"I bet it could be done today, but it couldn't be done the way Apple wants it."
THAT is something I will absolutely agree with you on. Our 14 month journey into BluRay has put me in touch with some amazing folks who are authoring BluRay discs for the major studios. What I have learned is that creating BluRay authoring software is incredibly complex. As one engineer explained to me, "A 16 year old can write DVD authoring software. BluRay is incredibly complicated."
Adobe Encore has shown me what happens when you bring out a product with not much understanding of what the product has to do in order to work. Even DoStudio is a very very young software and there are growing pains with it. But NetBlender has been very responsive and quick to produce updates.
I believe Apple is looking at things like Scenarist, BluIt, Encore and DoStudio to see what they do and how they do it. When they are ready to release a BluRay authoring software or add it to DVDSP, they will want it to work pretty much like DVDSP, just pick and template and drag and drop. This is VERY complicated in BluRay. There are tons of conditions and now with BluRay 2.0, there are all sorts of additional java functionality that can be added, especially if the unit is connected to your internet network. But nobody knows how much of this functionality will actually be desired and used by the general public, or if they will even figure out how to use it.
So my belief is that Apple is simple biding its time to see what the BluRay market wants, taking its time to engineer something that actually works, and then it will release the product to market in due time. Not sure if we'll see anything in 2009, but I would suspect by 2010 Apple would have something out unless BluRay has already been replaced by something else.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Jeremy Garchow on Oct 16, 2008 at 11:16:38 pm
[walter biscardi]"It can't be that expensive."
You are forgetting Apple's markup. So the cost of a BluRay burner for a Mac right now is $540 and then $99 for Toast? Even if it was that much, imagine the throwback you'd get from raising the cost of every Apple computer by that much, or more.
[walter biscardi]"They really don't even need to do that. Roxio Toast has been able to burn to BluRay disc for two years now. It just shows up as a 25 or 50GB BluRay disc and you can burn data to it just like you do any CD or DVD. "
Any do you really think Apple would sell a computer and tell you to go buy Toast to increase its functionality? No way. People are going to want to burn BluRays of their kids soccer games from IMovie without buying an extra add on.
[walter biscardi]"The licensing is not complex. The actual authoring software is complex."
And when you go to replicate, it's a $4,500 licensing fee just to get started. At least it was last time I called around.
[walter biscardi]"It's now quite easy to find BluRay replication houses. Certainly much easier than it was 14 months ago when we started authoring BluRay discs here. "
Oh yeah? Where? I am curious as I have not been successful in my area (Chicago). If anyone knows of one in the area, I am all ears.
[walter biscardi] "A 16 year old can write DVD authoring software. BluRay is incredibly complicated." "
And that, I'm sure, is what is holding Mac development back and what Jobs is referring to.
[walter biscardi]"Not sure if we'll see anything in 2009, but I would suspect by 2010 Apple would have something out unless BluRay has already been replaced by something else. "
And that's the waiting period I mentioned earlier. I guess I am just tired of all the complaining is all. I also think the argument about Apple wanting to protect its download service is invalid. I don't know if anyone remembers, but it took a VERY long time until the Mac was able to basically incorporate DVD into it's OS in a way that was available to every person that picked up a Mac. They aren't going to go backwards at this point and release hardware without software. It's not their way. Also, once Bluray player reach $150, then we will see a huge demand for BluRay.
BluRay is not an option on the Mac right now. Walter, you seemed to have found a decently priced solution on the PC. As of today, that's what people need to know. Apple will get around to it when they feel like it.
Just curious, how many people on this thread have had their clients actually ask for BluRay? In my 5 years of HD production, I have had exactly 2. Also, if you don't own a Sony PS3, how many of you own BluRay players? Walter, I know your answers already.
Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by walter biscardi on Oct 16, 2008 at 11:57:49 pm
[Jeremy Garchow]"And when you go to replicate, it's a $4,500 licensing fee just to get started. At least it was last time I called around. "
That's the licensing fee for Commercial Replication. NOT to install a BluRay drive inside your machine. Those are two different things.
i'm sure there's a licensing fee to add BluRay authoring to software, but not just to install the drive.
[Jeremy Garchow]"Oh yeah? Where? I am curious as I have not been successful in my area (Chicago). If anyone knows of one in the area, I am all ears. "
The folks we talk to are out of Phoenix. I didn't say they were all around, they're just easier to find now. When we looked 14 months ago we had two choice. Do a Google search for Blu Ray Replication and you'll get some options.
Don't know of any in Chicago, but I work with folks all over the country.
[Jeremy Garchow]"Walter, I know your answers already. "
I will just add that we did NOT purchase any BluRay equipment until the first client asked for it. One thing we do own is a Version 1.0 player (Sony BDP-S1) and a Version 2.0 player (Samsung 1500) and I'm about to purchase another Version 2.0 player (Sony) because these discs have to be tested a LOT more than DVD discs.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Jeremy Garchow on Oct 17, 2008 at 12:28:43 am
[walter biscardi]"That's the licensing fee for Commercial Replication. NOT to install a BluRay drive inside your machine. Those are two different things. "
Agreed, but I am looking at the cost of the whole kit and kaboodle. Not just what it costs to get a burner.
[walter biscardi]"i'm sure there's a licensing fee to add BluRay authoring to software, but not just to install the drive. "
That license has been paid for when you buy the drive.
[walter biscardi]"The folks we talk to are out of Phoenix."
Who? I'd like to call them.
[walter biscardi]"I'm about to purchase another Version 2.0 player (Sony) because these discs have to be tested a LOT more than DVD discs."
Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by walter biscardi on Oct 17, 2008 at 12:52:12 am
[Jeremy Garchow]"[walter biscardi] "The folks we talk to are out of Phoenix."
Who? I'd like to call them.
"
I can't find their email, I'll pull it out of the files in the morning. Have you googled BluRay replication yet? That's what we did when we started. I just did it again, found 12 companies doing replication.
[Jeremy Garchow]"[walter biscardi] "I'm about to purchase another Version 2.0 player (Sony) because these discs have to be tested a LOT more than DVD discs."
Is that due to inconsistencies? "
Yep. The Samsung has some issues that the Sony doesn't show, and we know the LG machines are different too. Samsung just updated their machines due to two new BluRays coming out shortly and they had to be updated to run them. So with BluRay especially you have to make sure all the machines are updated. We had the same inconsistencies with Encore.
A lot of them are just weird stuff. Animated menus that don't animate on one machine, but does on another, etc...
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Jeremy Garchow on Oct 17, 2008 at 1:34:31 am
I did Google it and found one in Chicago, actually. It was no less than 1,000 discs made @ $3.25 a disc, which did not include a $1300 AACS fee plus $.04 per disc for the AACS. So, that means I can get 1,000 discs (no less) and that will cost me $4,590 plus tax and shipping. Cheaper than when I last checked, but still not cheap. It is also rare that I need a run of 1,000. That also was from a DLT master. It didn't mention anything from a BD-R master.
Anyway, sorry this got off topic, I just think that Apple does not deliberately hobble anything. Decisions needs to be made, business decisions, and you can't include everything in every release and expect to keep the same cost or lower. In my opinion, the macbook has not been a legit FCP editor for a while anyway. If you need to edit, you can spend the extra $600 for a real computer with real connectivity that will operate FCS without issue.
Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by walter biscardi on Oct 17, 2008 at 1:18:08 pm
[Jeremy Garchow]"I did Google it and found one in Chicago, actually. It was no less than 1,000 discs made @ $3.25 a disc, which did not include a $1300 AACS fee plus $.04 per disc for the AACS. So, that means I can get 1,000 discs (no less) and that will cost me $4,590 plus tax and shipping. Cheaper than when I last checked, but still not cheap."
One thing I NEVER said is that BluRay is cheap. I just said there are more BluRay replication options out there than 14 months ago.
These folks are actively touting DoStudio as an authoring option for folks like us and then we can send the master to them for replication. Not sure if they take a BD-R or a DLT, we never got that far in our discussions as we are self-publishing all our own work for now. We've run about 300 BluRays now out of our own equipment.
The price for all the equipment was less than a single run of BluRay discs at the time and I'm still glad we have all of this gear here. It's great for runs of 10 to 50 at a time.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Chris Borjis on Oct 17, 2008 at 4:34:58 pm
[Jeremy Garchow]"Just curious, how many people on this thread have had their clients actually ask for BluRay?"
I usually get a "gut feeling" when a client is about to ask about something new, so
I did all my homework (which drive and software to purchase) and sure
enough within a month I had my first client inquiry for Blu-Ray disc.
It was for a feature length film at a festival in L.A. Everyone else
brought in DVDs for playing on the projector, my client brought in a BD
disc and blew everyone else's presentation away in picture quality.
I sure hear a lot of complaints about Encore (I don't use it as it was unstable enough with dvd authoring)
but I don't hear a lot about DVDITPRO-HD which is what I use. Sure it's a little quirky (all bd authoring is pretty much at this point), but
it works (menus actually do work) and as of 6.4 it is certified for BD replication as well
as dual layer functionality. It also accepts VC-1 and H.264 streams just like the big hollywood discs. It also rejects anything but compliant video streams and its made by the same company
that makes Scenarist.
I'm quite satisfied with it at this point. But If I needed all the bells and whistles of the
full spec, Do Studio is where I would go.
Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Jeremy Garchow on Oct 17, 2008 at 4:49:40 pm
[Chris Borjis]"It was for a feature length film at a festival in L.A. Everyone else
brought in DVDs for playing on the projector, my client brought in a BD
disc and blew everyone else's presentation away in picture quality. "
Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Ben Holmes on Oct 16, 2008 at 11:24:18 pm
Wow - this all went a little off-topic. Whilst we're at it though, I just cannot see what issues Apple have to overcome with Blu-Ray that have not been overcome by EVERY OTHER computer manufacturer. You give a Blu-Ray option, and you charge a price that covers the licencing. End of story. That's a completely seperate issue to making authoring software like, erm, Adobe and Roxio did.
If there was official Blu-Ray support on Macs, perhaps the 3rd party solutions wouldn't suck as hard as they do. Also, I have 2 Blu-Ray drives, one internal and one external, and both are recognised by OSX. Both are available for burning plug-and-play. I even get a nice little BD-R logo on my Apple desktop when I stick a BD-R in. So who are Apple trying to kid? All their attitude achieves is sub-standard Mac software like Encore. Way to go Apple!
So - to conclude: Apple hobbled the Macbook to protect it's Pro market and hobbles Pro machines with no Blu-Ray to protect it's ITMS market. Oh well - I guess they can have a bit less of my money in future.
Ben
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Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Jeremy Garchow on Oct 17, 2008 at 12:36:45 am
[Ben Holmes]"So - to conclude: Apple hobbled the Macbook to protect it's Pro market and hobbles Pro machines with no Blu-Ray to protect it's ITMS market. Oh well - I guess they can have a bit less of my money in future."
This is the logic that is silly. You don't think if Apple had a way to do BluRay, they woudn't sell MORE machines? If they could do it in a way they see fit, they would.
Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Ben Holmes on Oct 17, 2008 at 8:59:12 am
If Apple had a way to do Blu-Ray? I'm sorry, but I have not seen any reasoning why they can't include a Blu-Ray drive in their machines, the same as everyone else does. The costs and licencing issues of professional replication are well known, but they are not the issue here. As I said before, Apple could put these drives in machines to order, and cover the per-machine licence costs in the extra charges. Whether or not they chose to develop a proper authoring solution is a completely separate issue, surely?
I don't think it's any stretch to say that Blu-Ray players (and playback) do not appeal to Apple because it would be in direct competition to the iTMS, and that's why they have not taken the first steps towards proper Blu-Ray integration. In other words, because that first step is not in Apple's financial interests, it had directly effected their pro userbase. I'm not blaming Apple - that's the financial reality. It just means that the interests of myself and Apple have diverged, and the cosy little closed world I had in Apple-land doesn't look viable now in the long term.
Here's a Steve Jobs reply yesterday to a complaint about Firewire:
His response (and these responses are pretty well documented and checked) is that all new HD camcorders use USB. True. He fails to mention that (as someone else here pointed out) the iApps on Macbooks encode all those HD long-gop streams like AVCHD (I have an AVCHD camcorder) to AIC, which is now unplayable on Macbooks, as they no longer have ANY means of connecting media drives in a manner fast enough to play them. Apparently this irony is lost on Jobs. I think the article makes some interesting points, but adds near the end:
"Even so, many argue that Apple's move appears built to upsell any serious user to the MacBook Pro, which starts at $800 more than the entry level new MacBook, despite the fact that Apple continues to sell the previous-generation white MacBook, with FireWire intact, for $300 less than the new aluminum MacBooks."
Hmmm.
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Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Jeremy Garchow on Oct 17, 2008 at 9:39:27 am
All very good points, Ben. You caught me in a major case of jet leg so I am up extremely early, and extremely bored at the moment.
[Ben Holmes]"As I said before, Apple could put these drives in machines to order, and cover the per-machine licence costs in the extra charges. Whether or not they chose to develop a proper authoring solution is a completely separate issue, surely? "
And that is my point. As of right now, Apple cannot do BluRay in way that makes sense and that is 'Mac like', otherwise they would. As of right now, it's a bit too complex for the consumer and it sounds like it's pretty complex for professional application builders as well. I think that BluRay is still too new to simplify.
[Ben Holmes]"I don't think it's any stretch to say that Blu-Ray players (and playback) do not appeal to Apple because it would be in direct competition to the iTMS"
Perhaps, perhaps, but if this were the case, they wouldn't put DVD drives in their computers either as DVDs still outsell BluRays by far. I just don't believe that putting a BluRay burner in their computers would help or hurt iTunes sales, or the number would be so low due to the amount of new computers they would sell if BLuRay came standard and a user could author BluRay on the Mac that the number would be offset. To me, it's just two separate revenue streams that don't really converge. I could be wrong though.
So if you need firewire on a MacBook, it sounds like they just made it cheaper for you. And seriously, the Macbook shouldn't be used as an editor anyway (in my opinion). You can get the new 15" macbook Pro for $600 or $800 more and have a computer that really works instead of one that limps along. In the Pro market, I would call this the cost of doing business and also a smart thing to do if your business depends on owning the right tools to get the job done.
On a side note, if you want to see how bad the glossy screen reflection is, check out the keynote and watch the last video that starts a few minutes before the end of the entire presentation. Those glossy screens are rubbish.
Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Ben Holmes on Oct 17, 2008 at 11:51:11 am
[Jeremy Garchow]"As of right now, Apple cannot do BluRay in way that makes sense and that is 'Mac like', otherwise they would. As of right now, it's a bit too complex for the consumer and it sounds like it's pretty complex for professional application builders as well. I think that BluRay is still too new to simplify. "
Agreed - I think this makes a lot of sense - apart from the last part about it being too new - it's just not that new a format, it's so old in IT terms it's about to be superseded by iTMS downloads (hopes Apple). It's definitely a programming mess - ask Adobe. Still - this is the best argument right now for Apple's reluctance to join in. Still not sure I believe they don't already have this working in the labs however - Toast manages iDVD standard of Blu-Ray authoring already.
[Jeremy Garchow]"if this were the case, they wouldn't put DVD drives in their computers either as DVDs still outsell BluRays by far. I just don't believe that putting a BluRay burner in their computers would help or hurt iTunes sales"
Nice point - but misguided IMHO. The difference between Blu-Ray and DVD was the level of market penetration when this became an issue for Apple. When they started selling movies, DVD was already the default format for movies - and they had to support it. It also makes a great data format for software and archiving - which is what Blu-Ray could be - imagine the whole FCS install on ONE disk. Remember the piles of floppies we used to get before CD-ROM?
In the case of HD rentals/purchases, there is still a battle to be won. A much as Blu-Ray has won the HD-DISK war, downloading movies is rapidly becoming a viable alternative, which is why the likes of Netflix have also started offering a download service. Faster broadband will, eventually, render Blu-Ray disks pointless for movies IMHO, but it'll take a while. I think Apple would rather sit it out until this point in time - but at the moment it'll just take too long for this to happen. In the end, they will have to join the party.
[Jeremy Garchow]"And seriously, the Macbook shouldn't be used as an editor anyway (in my opinion). You can get the new 15" macbook Pro for $600 or $800 more and have a computer that really works instead of one that limps along"
Now, I was pretty clear at the start of the thread I didn't want this as a main machine - just a travel machine for work and a little prep etc. I'm typing this on a MBP I guess I will be working with for at least another 12 months. But that's not the point here: The new Macbook SHOULD (and - hey - this is only an educated guess) be able to run FCS just fine - even Motion. For many users, especially FC Express and iApps users, the MacBook is now a Pro spec machine, with one glaring omission....
Take a look at Gizmodo's unusually good review of both systems:
In one word, pros. (Suiting, we know.) Video professionals will need the MBP because the MB no longer has FireWire, still a big deal for video guys. USB is fast, but its speeds aren't sustained. Those who use FireWire require predictable transfer rates, a connection that won't drop during realtime video playback from an external hard drive or capture from a video deck.
Anyone who requires an ExpressCard, too, will need to spend the extra cash on a MBP. Many 3G peripherals use this slot—and some correct Apple's willful memory-card ignorance by filling it with an SD/MS reader—but there are just as many USB peripherals, so its omission in the MB probably isn't as damning as FireWire's.
And then, of course, there's the group that requires the MacBook Pro's discrete graphics card with a half-gig of dedicated RAM. Large textures and massive Photoshop files require a level of performance that the basic MacBook's integrated graphics, even Nvidia's most boastworthy—just can't replace.
In this regard, we see the line drawn in the sand between the MacBook and the MacBook Pro. Similar processors, different graphics and FireWire and ExpressCard only if you pay up."
Yup - the gfx aren't as wiz-bang on the MB, but they're not far off the last-gen MBP, and for all I know they're better than the gfx on my own X1600 MBP. These 'integrated' gfx on the new MB are 'integrated' in system terms only - they suffer from nowhere near the same slowdowns as the old Intel integrated setup.
Look - Apple can do what they like. The world won't stop turning. Just realise that where they used to court Pro users (and I've spent over $20,000 with them in 2 years) they now have a different focus. I have to look a few years ahead - and barring an amazing FCS update, I'm worried about the future support I can expect to receive from the single manufacturer into whose basket I put all my eggs. I think the Blu-Ray and FW issues ARE symptomatic of a change of direction from Apple. The next 12 months will prove if I'm right.
Feeling your jetlag - I think 10 percent of me is still out in Kentucky from the Ryder, and another 10 percent is in Dublin from last week....
Kind regards
Ben
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Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Paul Dickin on Oct 17, 2008 at 12:44:22 pm
Hi
The music-fascinated teenager - of any age ;-) - who feels the urge to create their own music, rather than just consume=download someone else's, they're in a no-win situation.
They have no revenue stream - can't hope to have a revenue stream - because nowadays music is universally freely given-away. So they will spend their money with extreme caution.
Almost to a person they realise that Mac OS X's plug'n'play advantages when it cvomes to computer-based music creation are something to aspire to. :-)
Logic Studio is available at a price all can afford.
Yet the very few multi-channel audio I/O devices (4 or more channels, both ways simultaneously) that used USB have failed/been discontinued - because FireWire has overwhelming stability and performance advantages.
Whilst a few manufacturers have produced PCIe I/O systems, there are droves of manufacturers, big and specialist (Apple included in their partnership with Apogee) who are even now announcing newly specced FireWire music recording or processing devices.
Their isn't an alternative technology available - now of in the near future - to subsitute for these devices.
A lot of these youngsters, whilst aspiring to the simplicity of Mac OS X, are adept at manipulating Windows PC hardware. What better incentive could Steve Jobs give to the hackintosh community to get to it, and make it work... :-(
Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Paul Dickin on Oct 17, 2008 at 12:47:06 pm
Hi
The music-fascinated teenager - of any age ;-) - who feels the urge to create their own music, rather than just consume=download someone else's, they're in a no-win situation.
They have no revenue stream - can't hope to have a revenue stream - because nowadays music is universally freely given-away. So they will spend their money with extreme caution.
Almost to a person they realise that Mac OS X's plug'n'play advantages when it cvomes to computer-based music creation are something to aspire to. :-)
Logic Studio is available at a price all can afford.
Yet the very few multi-channel audio I/O devices (4 or more channels, both ways simultaneously) that used USB have failed/been discontinued - because FireWire has overwhelming stability and performance advantages.
Whilst a few manufacturers have produced PCIe I/O systems, there are droves of manufacturers, big and speshialist* (Apple included in their partnership with Apogee) who are even now announcing newly specced FireWire music recording or processing devices.
Their isn't an alternative technology available - now of in the near future - to subsitute for these devices.
A lot of these youngsters, whilst aspiring to the simplicity of Mac OS X, are adept at manipulating Windows PC hardware. What better incentive could Steve Jobs give to the hackintosh community to get to it, and make it work... :-(
Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Ben Holmes on Oct 17, 2008 at 1:58:47 pm
Actually this applies to all students - many of whom purchase FCS at considerable student discounts. At a single stroke, Apple have cut off a generation of laptop toting FCP learning students, who now have no way to connect a video drive or DV camera to their personal computer. Even if they're using a newer HD camera, they still have NO WAY to play the captured video reliably.
If you think this is hyperbole, then think again. If you were heartened as I have been by a new generation of students bought up in FCP at college, now making their way into production and post-production, helping in no small part to tip the balance in broadcast towards FCP away from AVID then wonder how many of them will buy a $2000 MBP. To say nothing of the film industry directly sourcing talent from film schools, using DV and HDV cameras. If you watched the Apple launch stream of the new laptops, you would have seen the emphasis they put on students - including the now famous shot of a lecture hall full of journalism students (I think it's from North Western) all toting Macbooks.
All this from the lack of a port? Yes - really. It's not good enough for Steve Jobs to make a glib response about HD camcorders using USB. Not only does it ignore DV users (still the vast majority) it totally ignores the storage issues removing the FW port causes. Many PC alternatives at LESS price than the MB have Expresscard other interface options.
I suspect Apple will either u-turn on this on pay a heavy price a few years down the line.
Ben
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I don't think your student argument is very good either. They get heavily discounted equipment and from the sounds of it, there are more and more students buying macs. Macs and students are not going anywhere.
Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Ben Holmes on Oct 17, 2008 at 3:15:10 pm
I like this discussion! Have at it....
[Jeremy Garchow]"Like I said before, it is now cheaper to get a Macbook with firewire. It's $999:"
Yup - a Macbook that won't run FCS. That's why they hobbled the new ones - it's essentially a lot closer to a MBP in terms of power, as I said before. Why haven't Apple updated the tech specs on FCS to state whether or not the new MBs will run it?
[Jeremy Garchow]"They get heavily discounted equipment and from the sounds of it, there are more and more students buying macs"
They get heavily discounted SOFTWARE - on the Apple education store, a MBP is $100 cheaper at $1899, the basic Macbook $50 cheaper at $949. Or $1245 for the new MacBook 'Bricked'. Wow. More students have Macs because a) they can use all the cool software on them (or at least they could...) and b) because colleges now require students to have a laptop for their courses and c) because Mac is a cool brand.
Final Cut Studio is listed on the UK Apple store for £548.73, £400/$700 less than the normal retail price (for some reason I couldn't see it on the US store). I imagine institutional prices will be a lot lower - it's still not going to mean they stump up for MBPs. iMacs all round I guess, until FW disappears on those, or they bring out an iMac Pro.
Honestly Jeremy, it's hard to say what the impact of Apple's new direction will be - but you cannot convince me that producing what every reviewer so far has referred to as a 13" MBP, then equipping it with nothing more useful than USB2 is anything other than a cynical and calculated move by Apple. I imagine they have costed the impact of this decision, and made it for the best business reasons possible, but I think they underestimated the value of the goodwill already lost by their actions.
Ben
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Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Jeremy Garchow on Oct 17, 2008 at 3:47:36 pm
[Ben Holmes]"Why haven't Apple updated the tech specs on FCS to state whether or not the new MBs will run it? "
I don't know.
[Ben Holmes]"then equipping it with nothing more useful than USB2 is anything other than a cynical and calculated move by Apple. I imagine they have costed the impact of this decision, and made it for the best business reasons possible, but I think they underestimated the value of the goodwill already lost by their actions. "
Yeah maybe. They did it with fw800 and the first 15" Macbook Pro with intel. Remember that fiasco? That didn't go down so well either. There's a reason they are leaving the white MacBook out there dangling. At least it's still an option.
Also, the NEW 13" MacBook is not a MacBook Pro. It's a MacBook. I don't think it should run FCP.
Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Ben Holmes on Oct 17, 2008 at 4:13:34 pm
[Jeremy Garchow]" I don't think it should run FCP."
Ah - Betcha it will. And - neatly wrapping up this thread - betcha that's why they dropped the FW....
Ben
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Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Andrew Kimery on Oct 17, 2008 at 4:05:59 pm
[Jeremy Garchow]"So if you need firewire on a MacBook, it sounds like they just made it cheaper for you. And seriously, the Macbook shouldn't be used as an editor anyway (in my opinion). You can get the new 15" macbook Pro for $600 or $800 more and have a computer that really works instead of one that limps along. In the Pro market, I would call this the cost of doing business and also a smart thing to do if your business depends on owning the right tools to get the job done. " Like I've said before, the lack of FW hampers the new MacBooks for everyone, not just Pros budget on-the-go machine. Jobs' statement of, "Actually, all of the new HD camcorders of the past few years use USB 2" is just flat out wrong. In fact, the most popular consumer HD camera over the past few years have either been Sony or Canon HDV cameras. If someone wants to cut together their vacation videos should their only laptop option be a MacBook Pro? Would you recommend editing a 100Mbit codec on a laptop's interal 5400 RPM drive or via a USB 2.0 HDD? The iMacs and iBooks/MacBooks have been a capable consumer editing machines for years and this revision is a major step backwards.
Given the amount of disappointment on this board, and others like it, that the new MacBooks don't have FW I think there were a number of people who used MacBooks 'beyond' what Apple intended and they felt it was cutting into their MacBook Pro sales too much. As long as you have fast enough storage (i.e. FW based) and a way to connect the camera there is no reason why a MacBook can't easily handle DV, HDV, AIC, or DVCPro HD. CPU speeds have increased so much that consumer laptops today are faster than pro towers of just a few years ago so there is plenty of 'muscle' in the MacBook and that's the 'problem' Apple faced. Overall system speed didn't put enough distance between the MB and the MBP in their minds so they pulled FW (which have been on their consumer laptops since '01).
I don't own a laptop nor am I planning on buying a laptop in the near future so I don't have a horse in this race I just think it's unfortunate that Apple crippled the new MB in this fashion.
Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Jeremy Garchow on Oct 17, 2008 at 4:47:54 pm
[Andrew Kimery]"The iMacs and iBooks/MacBooks have been a capable consumer editing machines for years and this revision is a major step backwards. "
The MacBook with firewire is still out there if you need it. Macbooks were not recommended with FCP due to the integrated instead of dedicated graphics chip.
[Andrew Kimery]"Would you recommend editing a 100Mbit codec on a laptop's interal 5400 RPM drive or via a USB 2.0 HDD?"
Nope, but I bet 95% of consumers do just this. Consumers, not Pros.
[Andrew Kimery]"I don't own a laptop nor am I planning on buying a laptop in the near future so I don't have a horse in this race I just think it's unfortunate that Apple crippled the new MB in this fashion. "
Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Andrew Kimery on Oct 17, 2008 at 12:49:37 am
[Jeremy Garchow]"What does this have to do with anything? If I made a BluRay disc in DVDSP (if it was possible) or Encore, what does that have to do with Apple's download service from iTunes?"
Nothing. Which is why, IMO, it's unfortunate that Apple is limiting its offerings to try and 'protect' the iTMS and AppleTV from Blu-Ray. When DVD SP 4 was released Apple was touting it's ability to author an HD-DVD. Even though it was very basic and limited they were still like, "Hey look what we can do first." That was in 2005. What's changed? Why is Apple backing away from being a leader in desktop authoring?
I know Apple is booming in the consumer electronics sector and that's good for them and I'm not saying I want to them turn their back on that big money maker. It's just kinda irritating that over the past couple of years there have been consumer-centric decisions that have effected Apple's professional base and Apple doesn't seem to mind. The delays due to the iPhone, the QT 7.4 fiasco, etc.,. The early partnership w/Red looked exciting but that seemed to fizzle into nothing. I look at Adobe and Avid comin' out swinging and I wonder what happened to the full head of steam Apple's ProApps used to have.
But who knows... If Apple sticks to the 2 year update cycle a new FC suite will be shown at NAB and maybe we'll all be happy campers again.
I'm not a fanboy nor a hater but I do think I should be able to give criticism every now and then w/o being told love it or leave it.
Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Tom Wolsky on Oct 17, 2008 at 12:59:42 am
According to Jobs the Blu-ray licensing requirements are a world of hurt he doesn't want Apple to get into. Said he would reconsider if and when things settle down, but now it's just too much of a headache, and probably a great of money as well.
All the best,
Tom
Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP6," "Basic Training for FCS2" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Author: "Final Cut Pro 5 Editing Essentials" and "Final Cut Express 4 Editing Workshop"
Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Paul Dickin on Oct 16, 2008 at 9:37:29 pm
[Winston A. Cely]"Apple no longer cares about us! " Hi
Don't kid yourself. They never did care (about us).
But this week we were supposed to be in awe of the strikingly simple unibody design elegance - and a huge proportion of the core user-base are distinctly not, over the design-over-function no-FW issue...
That maybe is making a dent in the laser-tooled aluminium-smooth Apple corporate consciousness.
Next year we will no doubt be expected to be in awe of how Snow Leopard will make full use of the new MacBook Pro's 9600M GT graphics processor for increased render power, whilst the native 9400M chipset will handle the GUI display.
...maybe we will. Maybe not.
Maybe we'll be more concerned that the legacy codebase of FCS and QuickTime will still be creaking under the demands of providing the required functionality of a 21st century pro app editing suite.
Apple have everything to prove at this point in time. ;-)
Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Winston A. Cely on Oct 16, 2008 at 11:12:57 pm
Paul, I hate to disagree, but I do think Apple cares about us. They just have their own plans, and typically (not all the time) they've not let us down - even when our plans don't exactly match up. :)
Winston A. Cely
Editor/Owner | Della St. Media, LLC
Sound it out: Nu-clear, not nu-cu-lar.
Mac Pro 3GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon
4 GB RAM | Final Cut Studio 5.1.4 | Aja Kona LHe
Re: New Macbook - Deliberately hobbled? by Bob Cole on Oct 31, 2008 at 12:25:24 am
David Pogue's review in the NY Times quotes Jobs and says that Apple is simply adjusting to the facts of life: FW will at some point be dead and is already archaic.
