Considering FC Studio Purchase & Need Some Info
by Mark Job
on
Oct 11, 2008 at 6:29:27 pm
Hi Editors:
I am an Avid editor who is seriously considering the purchase of a MAC computer and running Final Cut Studio on it. I need to get some serious feedback from experienced final cut pro editors on a few points.
1. Some editors have commented on there being too much rendering required to apply effects and modifications to the time line. Is this in fact true ? One editor refered to FCP as "render cut pro." Is this really fair ?
2. Can I run FC Studio on the top new iMAC computer ? (Top model has Intel Core 2 Duo @ 3.06 Ghz with 4 GB DDR 2 800 MHz RAM all running on 1066 Mhz system bus speed and 1 Terrabyte HDD with Nvidia 512 MB GDDR 3 RAM power graphics card)
Re: Considering FC Studio Purchase & Need Some Info by Arnie Schlissel on Oct 11, 2008 at 7:27:08 pm
[Mark Job]"1. Some editors have commented on there being too much rendering required to apply effects and modifications to the time line. Is this in fact true ? One editor refered to FCP as "render cut pro." Is this really fair ?"
This is largely a matter of how your system is set up and your work practices.
A faster Mac with a better graphics card & faster drive array can play a lot of effects at medium or better quality in real time. If that's OK by you, then you can work very quickly, and let FCP render on bathroom/lunch breaks or overnight.
If you're in a client driven situation, however, you may need to render much more often to show the client what the real quality looks like. This may help some (not all) clients make up their minds faster, especially if they're paying by the hour! ;)
Arnie
Post production is not an afterthought!
http://www.arniepix.com/
Re: Considering FC Studio Purchase & Need Some Info by Mark Job on Oct 11, 2008 at 8:04:43 pm
Hi Arnie:
I'll tell you what - I really like the iMAC design, but only the new top model. I am a hard core PC person who has worked all my professional career (so far) on desktops and PC power laptops. I have never even used a MAC once ! There seems to be so many advantages from first glance of design, flexibility and total integration of multiple applications talking to each other, that I have been considering a move to MAC and FCP. I have been reading all the threads on the Avid website (Their user forums)about how bad FCP is and how terribly long the rendering times are, etc, etc. Many Avid users also have FCP now.
Perhaps the single greatest aspect of FCP which intriques me is its interface. I built my post production company on a fast drag & drop DPS realtime editing system. I was as fast as a gedi on the old DPS timeline ! Over two years back we were hit with a bad storm, which caused a slow brown out, then power out (The surge protectors didn't porotect my system). My system was totally fried right in the middle of a major project for my biggest industrial video client ! I then went out and purchased Avid Xpress Pro 5.6.0 at the time. Using the new editing interface of Avid was like hitting a brick wall ! - Talk about a non-intuitive interface ! Holy smokes was it ever hard for me to not try and use my Avid like a drag & drop interface ! I'm not saying Avid isn't a great application, because it is ! I upgraded to Media Composer and it was much better, but I really miss using a drag & drop interface.
You wrote, "let FCP render on bathroom/lunch breaks or overnight." Now what you wrote here kind of scares me away. I don't have time to wait all night for stuff. I was looking at an all dressed Mac Pro, but then again, we're starting to put out some real dollars. I'm not saying this isn't a worth while investment either. This is especially true if it will make us some bigger bucks later.
Re: Considering FC Studio Purchase & Need Some Info by Shane Ross on Oct 11, 2008 at 8:18:37 pm
Well, consider this...
Your Avid is running on a high end machine with a high end Avid card like the Adrenaline or Mojo. And the storage is nice fast drives. You are talking about getting FCP on a consumer that at most can power firewire drives. FCP will perform OK on that, but not stellar. If you had a full on high end FCP setup with good RAID drives, it will mix formats very well.
Put the Avid software on your iMac and see how that performs...not as well as the Avid's at work, I guarantee.
Re: Considering FC Studio Purchase & Need Some Info by Mark Job on Oct 11, 2008 at 11:35:12 pm
@ Shane:
Well, this would tend to put to rest the suggestion which some have made claiming FCP is not good enough to do Network TV post with. I'm really glad to hear this :-)
Re: Considering FC Studio Purchase & Need Some Info by Frank Philip on Oct 11, 2008 at 8:29:23 pm
I've been editing DV25 material on a iMac 2.0ghz with 2gigs of ram and the standard graphics card that came with it. Motion and color runs fine for me for wedding and small corporate stuff. The reason I mentioned those programs are because they are the most taking on the graphic card. Rendering in final cut using the dynamic button is fine for me, but maybe not when a client is expecting close to 100% quality at all times.
The reason I choose the iMac was for cost versus Mac Pro, but also a trial run to work with FCP, and I must say that the interface is much cleaner and intuitive.
I come from about seven years working on a custom made pc running Premiere Pro 1.5 on a Matrox RTX100 system. My main reason for leaving PC was the constant crashes, blue screen of death.
Re: Considering FC Studio Purchase & Need Some Info by Mark Raudonis on Oct 11, 2008 at 9:19:13 pm
[Mark Job]" I have been reading all the threads on the Avid website (Their user forums)about how bad FCP is and how terribly long the rendering times are, etc, etc. Many Avid users also have FCP now. "
I have to give you credit for coming here to get a second opinion... but if you're relying on an Avid website for an opinion about FCP, what did you expect to hear?
If you have a valid reason to switch, then go ahead and do it, but only YOU can decide if FCP's gonna work for your workflow/clientbase/format etc. You can collect multiple opinions and research all you want, but there is no substitute for trying FCP out in your own, unique environment.
And... if you do try it out, please don't fall into that trap of comparing twenty years of Avid experience to twenty minutes of FCP. It takes awhile to learn the differences and how to apply the strengths of the FCP interface to your advantage rather than your frustration.
Re: Considering FC Studio Purchase & Need Some Info by Mark Job on Oct 11, 2008 at 9:52:01 pm
@ Mark:
Thank you. I understand what you mean about getting advice on how good or bad FCP really is. Don't forget many users on the Avid forum also have FCP now. We do industrial-kiosk and narative work. (Much less now in this present economy) We also do allot of delivery on WMV and now in Flash as well as DVD. I find media composer excellent as a cutting machine, but next to useless as a finishing machine ! It would seem Adobe CS3 & 4 and FCP have a total solution for cutting and finishing. Our delivery on DVD is not in AC3. It would be nice to be able to cut in Avid MC, then export a QT Ref or a QT Movie and import into FC Studio and author a nice Dolby Digital AC3 5.1 audio SD DVD or a BlueRay DVD. The grand majority of our stuff is shot on HDV. We also produce a web Tv show called Please Stand By, which is now being shot in 1080i HDV with our Canon XL H1. (Episode One was shot in AVI 720p 30 on a tiny TX1 Power Shot camera)
I think I need to go try out FCP on a demo machine to see how I like it. If it's drag and drop, then I'm sure will at least like that !
Re: Considering FC Studio Purchase & Need Some Info by david soriano on Nov 5, 2008 at 3:46:31 pm
I too use a SD DPS system, 8.0. Love it, but am looking to move to HD editing with my EX-1. I am looking into the Mac FCP system. Is there a big change between the two? Any thoughts?
Re: Considering FC Studio Purchase & Need Some Info by Mark Job on Nov 5, 2008 at 4:11:00 pm
Hi David:
At this point I'm certainly no expert on Final Cut Pro (But hope to learn it and use it). I do know the DPS systems quite well, since I used my DPS Perception RT for over 11 years. The biggest difference you will see compared to DPS is the absence of really quick realtime cutting and transitions on the timeline. Also, DPS is hardware accelerated allowing you to use it in a relatively slow PC system and get total realtime performance, while FCP runs only on MACS. The greatest advantage of the DPS Paradigm is you are never at the mercy of the system bus ! I understand version 10 of Velocity HD will allow the user to take advantage of both when it comes to rendering with a choice to go hardware based, or use software based rendering.
Re: Considering FC Studio Purchase & Need Some Info by david soriano on Nov 5, 2008 at 5:13:47 pm
i hear ya. I have the Velocity, and love the stability of it. I thought about going proprietary HD, like another DPS system, but i need to get trained up ona more broadly used format, for my career purposes. I have 5K to spend on a mac, and will probably get a Mac Pro.
I see myself being a bit dissapointed with performance, considering we have been using a hardware based system. I just want to at least know that i can do real time cut and dissolves with FCP in a Mac Pro environment.
Re: rendering by John Pale on Oct 11, 2008 at 8:57:10 pm
I'm a big supporter of FCP, but I will say with certain types of programming you will have to render a great deal more types of things that will happily play in real time on an Avid.
If you do sports or news programming with lots of lower thirds, clocks, popups and other keyed items, you will quickly want to throw your FCP system out the window. Basically all Avid systems can do at least one layer of real time keying (matte keying in Avid lingo)...most sold today can do more than one. FCP cannot at present do ANY realtime keying (okay...low resolution Unlimited setting aside)...and since the rendering involves creating a new media file from the top down, you may also chew through tons more disk space. Its rather odd, considering even a relatively inexpensive FCP system can do multiple layers of picture in picture...but a fully decked out FCP system cannot play a simple keyed lower third in real time. Apple has simply not designed their RT Extreme engine to handle this type of material in real time....I'm pretty sure the hardware can handle it (as Avid runs on Mac and happily does it)...its just the software has not been optimized for this purpose.
If you do more narrative work, with only a few lower thirds....or conversely more intensive layering, that would need to be rendered on both Avid and FCP...the difference in platforms may not be that significant to you.
Re: Considering FC Studio Purchase & Need Some Info by Mark Job on Oct 12, 2008 at 12:23:23 am
If I understood you correctly, Walter, you're using FCP with a MAC Pro and a hardware video accelerator card (Kona 3), and you don't have to render to playback and trim and drop effects onto your timeline ?
Re: Considering FC Studio Purchase & Need Some Info by walter biscardi on Oct 12, 2008 at 12:34:13 am
[Mark Job]"If I understood you correctly, Walter, you're using FCP with a MAC Pro and a hardware video accelerator card (Kona 3), and you don't have to render to playback and trim and drop effects onto your timeline ?"
The Kona card is not a video accelerator. It's a high end video I/O card that allows me to work all the way up to 2K resolution. It also converts just about anything to anything. SD to HD. 720 to 1080. 1080 to 720. HD to SD. All in realtime at full broadcast quality.
The Kona also allows a bit more realtime funationality running DVCPro HD and HDV due to the realtime scaling handled by the card allowing the processors to bypass that function.
Where we really get more realtime functionality are very fast SATA Arrays. Running up to and beyond 500MB/s that's what really gives us the most realtime functionality. High speed processors, AJA Kona 3 and very high speed arrays, it's the entire package that gives you the most realtime functionality.
If you click on my Profile, you can see exactly what we run in all three suites.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: Considering FC Studio Purchase & Need Some Info by Shane Ross on Oct 12, 2008 at 12:49:09 am
TONS of broadcast shows edit with FCP...and a few network shows too, like SCRUBS.
But FCP doesn't do everything, it does fit every workflow. Avid excels in areas where FCP chokes. And FCP excels in areas where Avid chokes. It all depends on the workflow you have and what you need done.
Re: Considering FC Studio Purchase & Need Some Info by walter biscardi on Oct 12, 2008 at 12:56:02 am
[Shane Ross]"But FCP doesn't do everything, it does fit every workflow. Avid excels in areas where FCP chokes. And FCP excels in areas where Avid chokes. It all depends on the workflow you have and what you need done. "
Very well said. The big difference between FCP and Avid is FCP is infinitely configurable. Avid you have to follow a very strict set of configurations. That's how Avid can guarantee performance and FCP's performance is wholly based on how you set it up.
FCP on an iMac is not nearly as strong as FCP on a Mac Pro with an AJA Kona 3 and a fast SATA or Fibre array.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: Considering FC Studio Purchase & Need Some Info by David Roth Weiss on Oct 12, 2008 at 12:30:16 am
Mark[Mark Job]"I am an Avid editor who is seriously considering the purchase of a MAC computer and running Final Cut Studio on it. I need to get some serious feedback from experienced final cut pro editors on a few points."
Mark,
Since March, when you asked pretty much the same questions not much has changed, except you said back then that you edited on Avid Xpress Pro. You received a number of answers about FCP on the iMac in March, so I'm wondering what happened, why the need to ask the same questions?
David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™
A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, and Indie Film & Documentary forums.
Re: Considering FC Studio Purchase & Need Some Info by Mark Job on Oct 12, 2008 at 1:59:22 am
@ David:
Several things have changed. One, you already mentioned. Now I run on Avid MC.
2. Apple has upgraded their top model of iMAC, and I wanted to know if any FCP users were cutting on an iMAC without problems. I wantede to know what FCP editors thought about using the strongest model. One FCP user responded that he was cutting on an iMAC and it worked well for him.
3. I never asked about rendering times or amount of rendering required in FCP, and this was the subject of some controversey on the Avid user forum (Avid website) for a while. When somebody trashes something as bad as it got trashed, then I get suspicious and want to revisit my initial inquireries and do a little more research. The FCP editors here have been very kind to update me and give me a little more specific information on a subject I did not ask about before.
What's the matter David ? Did I do something wrong ? I haven't been here since March, and now I'm back. Did I break some forum rule or something ? You make it sound like I shouldn't be here. :-(
Re: Considering FC Studio Purchase & Need Some Info by John Pale on Oct 12, 2008 at 2:52:34 am
Mark,
The limitation I mention in my post above probably contributes more to the rendering criticisms that you have heard more than anything else. It's a clear difference in performance from Avid and one that a lot of people making the switch are shocked about...since its something an Avid could do for many years, they just assume FCP can do it... and are stunned and annoyed at all the rendering they have to do on a fully decked out, Kona 3 equipped FCP system. I do a great deal of work on sports programming, so I run into people who are frustrated with this limitation all the time. However, not every show has the same needs. If you don't need keyable graphics all over your show, you will probably never notice or care about this limitation. If you are doing complex layered graphics, using lots of plugins, that always need renders on both Avid and FCP you will also probably not notice the difference. I have delivered network shows on both platforms. You need to do your homework about the strengths and weaknesses of both (which you are doing!) and think hard about what your needs are.
Re: Considering FC Studio Purchase & Need Some Info by Mark Job on Oct 12, 2008 at 3:33:13 am
Hey John:
As it has already been pointed out, I've been doing my homework (As you have acknowledged) since about March now :-) I don't want to rush into another NLE purchase too quickly. I did so with Avid for reasons I already explained earlier in this thread.
Regarding the big render issue. I seriously question wether this would be so big for me ? Perhaps I would feel it more on an industrial video, where one needs lower thirds and title overlay much more. You already mentioned sports as another contract where you might get bit if you're against a deadline. I work on a power laptop PC plugged into a docking station, so I'm used to waiting to render stuff out in Avid before it can be exported to DVD or to Squeeze for encoding.
Like you said, I really need to do my homework here. Frankly, who wouldn't be willing to trade off a little time in rendering for what looks like a great set of color corecting and audio post finishing tools ! :-) I don't know of any other DVD authoring package which allows DD AC3 5.1 from inside the authoring app. Avid's application to create DVD titles is a total abortion in my opinion. Yes, it gets the job done, but that's about all you can say. I don't think you can get the professional quality resuts with Avid DVD unless you build custom splash screens in Photoshop and encode your audio to AC3 5.1 in a third party app and then import those assets. There's alot of screwing around and it's a very klunky workflow if you need AC3 5.1.
It makes sense if you throw a huge honking Mac Pro with eight cores and 4 + Gigs of Ram and a screaming nVidia GPU, and a big Raid 0 array at FCP, then you will get a much different level of performance than with an iMAC.
Re: Considering FC Studio Purchase & Need Some Info by todd reid on Oct 12, 2008 at 3:04:49 pm
I used to be a self proclaimed AVID snob. I would gladly tell people that if you wanted to cut your sister's wedding or a birthday party, Final Cut is great, but I work on an AVID, why would I even want to look at FCP. I thought I was so clever.
Then it happened...I started messing around with FCP, it took a while cause it works quite a bit different than my beloved AVID. I got better with it, cut a few projects (broadcast on ABC affiliate in Dallas), and started to like it. Soon I was cutting only on FCP and I haven't missed that other edit system at all.
I eventually took the plunge, due to the inexpensive nature of FCP, and started my own freelance business using an iMac, then a MacBook Pro. I was able to complete several projects over the two or three years, but I quickly learned that as a professional, I wanted a much more beefier system. I now am running on a 2x3ghz quad-core xeon, Lacie RAID, panasonic lh1700 and AJA IOHD. I do mostly HD (dvcpro hd 720p, via P2 cards) and I love it.
I say this only to illustrate what has already been mentioned here...
the best iMac will work with relatively few troubles, but I would guess that you will
soon want to be pushing buttons on a Mac Pro with a third party I/O and storage faster than firewire 800.
As far as the render issue goes...
I think way too much time and effort is given to this.
An experienced editor will develop a workflow that includes the needed render time.
I have to render stuff all the time, guess what....its ok!
It forces me to not look at a computer screen for several hours at a time.
It really has never been an issue for me, and I've been editing since the olden days of linear editing on a grass valley system (no rendering, but would you ever want to go back to that?).
So my advice is to work with what you have until you can justify buying a macpro based edit system. I bought mine with a business loan, and it has payed for itself many times over with the added ummph that I got. Don't listen to the AVID folks (I won't call them snobs) talk about render time. That is just one of the things the AVID does better than FCP. They both are great edit systems. In my opinion, FCP has a better set of resources to complete the task of creating finished video projects.
Re: Considering FC Studio Purchase & Need Some Info by Chuck Brown on Oct 12, 2008 at 5:45:37 pm
Hi Todd, good reply. I haven't read all the responces to this post, so forgive me if this has been mentioned. I've worked on several systems and can say that there are only 2 things I miss on most of them that the AVID has. The trim window and marking on input. That's about it. FCP trim window is close, seems a bit clunky though in comparison. The ability to drop markers on clips as they come in is the most missed for me. You should also consideer the market you're in. Moving material between systems (if thats what you need to do alot) can be a lot easier and might justify continued use of AVID. I don't see them going away, the film cutters love 'em. Everything else, you'll get used to. And I agree with Todd on the render time. It's probibly something you deal with already anyway. Build the time in. Just my observation.
Re: Considering FC Studio Purchase & Need Some Info by Mark Job on Oct 12, 2008 at 5:58:56 pm
Thank you Todd for your post. I think I'm getting a much more qualified and ballanced opinion of some of the ins and outs of FCP versus Avid. Like on the official Avid user group, some FCP editors also have an Avid and work on either one or both as their needs of the job dictate. It is nice to get some straight talk,(You good American folk are also in election mode down there)if I may dare to use this phrase, on what has become a rather contentious point- Too contentious most likely.
I think we're all kinda spoiled on the realtime function issue. Back in the day when I first opened shop in 1998, pretty much every editing application required some amount of rendering to be able to push out video to a VTR. I was very fortunate to get a hold of what was then bleeding edge technology, with the DPS hardware accelerated realtime boardset. You got two streams of realtime SD video with realtime transitions and one channel realtime keyed overlay of titles and lower thirds !
I can't help but wonder how well FCP would run on the top iMAC 3.06 GHz nVidia machine with an AJA IO HD box hooked onto one of the FW 800 channels ? I would think the AJA box would do some of the heavy lifting. This IO HD device reminds me of a non $20K Avid Adrenaline, except the Adranaline worked well on a FW 400 MB connection and the AJA box gets to have twice the bandwidth.
Re: Considering FC Studio Purchase & Need Some Info by Shane Ross on Oct 12, 2008 at 6:24:32 pm
[Mark Job]"would think the AJA box would do some of the heavy lifting. "
IT won't. All this box does is capture and output. Not sure if it takes on the image scaling like the Kona cards do (and the Mojo and Adrenaline DX), but it....like all the other capture cards...does not add any RT to effects, nor boost performance. All the Mojo and Adrenaline did was take on the scaling so that the machine was free to handle the RT better...just like the Kona cards do.
PLUS...this is where the iMac is limiting...you only have one firewire bus, even though you have multiple firewire ports. So once you connect the AJA, you cannot reliably capture to any drive...as the drive only connect via firewire and they can't share the bus. USB is not reliable for capture drives either. If you had a Mac Pro, or a MacBook pro, then you have expansion slots that you can use for this.
Re: Considering FC Studio Purchase & Need Some Info by walter biscardi on Oct 12, 2008 at 10:19:59 pm
[Mark Job]"I would think the AJA box would do some of the heavy lifting. "
Nope, it's an I/O device. The only "heavy lifting" it does is to encode ProRes on the box because the iMac processors would not be able to do this on their own (same with the MacBook Pro.
The Io HD does not assist the computer in any other way.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: Considering FC Studio Purchase & Need Some Info by Mark Job on Oct 12, 2008 at 11:26:49 pm
OK thanks for the clarification on the AJA IO HD box Walter. I am now leaning towards some possible experimentation in the very near future with final cut pro. First, I will see about contacting Apple to find out if I could arrange an in suite hands on demo of the FC Studio product in my area (Montreal, Canada). I would like to be able to spernd 2 or even 3 days with an experienced FCP editor to see if I like it.
In my case, I'm as new to MAC computers as I am to FC Studio. I think my first purchase, will be an iMAC computer, and this will be only if I like what I see and hear and personally try in a FCP suite before I make any purchases. I know all but one editor on this thread has recommended to go straight for the MAC Pro all decked out to the max, but in my situation, I think an iMAC is the prudent move to make, if any at all. Of course I'll go for the maxed out iMAC and not the entry level one with the 3.06 GHz Core 2 Duo CPU and the max 4 GB of DDR 2 800 MHz Ram and the 1 TB HDD and the 8800 nVidia 512 MB GPU. I already use FW 800 external raid 0 drives on my Avid and they are fine for HDV.
Everything is all tentative until I have more personal contact with the app. I thank all of you for giving me your valuable feedback and for educating me more on FCP. I will say this - I'm intriqued about FC Studio bigtime ! :-)
Re: Considering FC Studio Purchase & Need Some Info by walter biscardi on Oct 13, 2008 at 1:29:41 am
[Mark Job]" First, I will see about contacting Apple to find out if I could arrange an in suite hands on demo of the FC Studio product in my area (Montreal, Canada). I would like to be able to spernd 2 or even 3 days with an experienced FCP editor to see if I like it. "
Contact a VAR (Value Added Reseller) in your area, not Apple. VAR's generally have demo units and a network of end users you can contact. I work pretty much exclusively with one VAR here in Atlanta primarily because I can demo equipment when necessary and he always takes care of me after the sale.
I still wouldn't go with an iMac, but that's just me. We have 4 iMacs we use at the shop, but none of them are for editing.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: Considering FC Studio Purchase & Need Some Info by Mark Job on Oct 13, 2008 at 1:36:37 am
Hi Walter. Yes, we will be checking out who's reselling, but the Apple head office in Canada might be able to direct me to the right one here in the greater Montreal area. Many folks are reselling Macs in town, but I think they don't specialize in FC Studio suite demos. Ill make some calls this week and see what I can find out.
Re: Considering FC Studio Purchase & Need Some Info by walter biscardi on Oct 13, 2008 at 2:16:04 am
[Mark Job]"Hi Walter. Yes, we will be checking out who's reselling, but the Apple head office in Canada might be able to direct me to the right one here in the greater Montreal area. Many folks are reselling Macs in town, but I think they don't specialize in FC Studio suite demos. Ill make some calls this week and see what I can find out."
Good luck with that. Quite honestly, Apple has a small business division and they will most likely try to sell you the suite themselves. They keep trying to get my business at the local Apple Stores here and call me about every three months, but they don't know diddly about a professional editing situation. They just know their own hardware and software.
Your better bet is to ask FCP users in your area who they purchase from and for a VAR recommendation.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: Considering FC Studio Purchase & Need Some Info by Kevin Monahan on Oct 13, 2008 at 1:33:53 am
Mark,
I don't think you will get Apple to give you a personal demo, but a VAR in your area would be happy to. On your own time, get an Apple Certified Trainer to sit with you (not just an editor), as they will be able to answer your questions and show you things some self-taught editor would never know. Not cheap, but worth the money. Even better is to take an Apple Certified Class, like for 3 days or more.
IMHO, it is short-sighted to run a professional video post operation on an iMac. If you only see doing HDV (a dying format) for the next 4 years, then go ahead. If you want a system that is flexible and will last you 3-5 years, then do yourself a favor and spend the extra money now.
Re: Considering FC Studio Purchase & Need Some Info by Mark Job on Oct 13, 2008 at 1:53:33 am
Hey Kevin. No, I don't think Apple will give me a demo either. I was planning on getting proper VAR direction from sales at head office. I think your suggestion to take the Final Cut Pro classes is an excellent idea as well.
Regarding the iMAC, you have to remember I'm totally new to MAC computers as well as FCP, and I simply don't have the cash in this current economy to put into a decked out MAC Pro if I get into FC Studio. I can always upgrade later. Don't forget, I already have the Avid as my main editing computer, and it is an Avid certified spec PC with excellent performance. I also have the possible option of running Avid on a MAC or a Mac Book Pro laptop and go that way. I'm not making any firm decisions at this point.
Your point is well taken about using a professional build to run a professional app.
Re: Considering FC Studio Purchase & Need Some Info by Dave Hardy on Oct 14, 2008 at 2:06:18 am
Hi Mark,
Moving to Mac a new NLE is a big decision if cash flow is tight. I think you are on the right track initially getting an iMac to run final cut. It's going to be awhile before you've adjusted to the new OS & FCP, never mind the other half dozen apps in the package. The souped up Mac Pro purchase is probably at least a year down the road. The iMac Final Cut Studio is your learner system & you're going to be working primarily with your Avid while you get acquainted with this new gear. Therefore you want to spend as little as possible up front. Who knows it may not be the system for you.
The cheapest way I can suggest is to buy a training DVD. Go to Ripple Training's website & pick up a copy of Steve Martin's Final Cut Pro 6 for $99 or go to lynda.com & spend $25 for a month's worth of online training on all the pro apps from Larry Jordan. Watching these movies should give you a fairly decent idea of whether these apps work in a manner that you would feel comfortable with.
The iMac works just fine with all the apps in the box if you are just working with HDV/DV/AVCHD. Aside from not having an express 34 slot, which the Macbook Pro has (& is nice because it gives you access to an eSata setup) . New Macbook Pros coming out tomorrow of course might be attractive. Buying a souped up machine for a learner system doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense IMO. I'd suggest going to Apple Canada's online Store & picking up a refurbished unit not bottom but not top of the line. The mid range 20" 2.4 will set you back $1,049 CDN with the hundreds of dollars you are going to save you can pick up a copy of Final Cut Express for $199 & still be ahead several hundred dollars. After all this is only a learning system which you will be selling at the end of the year when the warrantee expires.
Re: Considering FC Studio Purchase & Need Some Info by Mark Job on Oct 14, 2008 at 5:00:43 am
Hi Dave:
You have come pretty close to my own plan of action. I think I will be getting an iMAC. I may go for a cheaper refurbished unit, or I may simply go for the maxed out iMAC which will run FC Studio 2 fast enough that my rendering will not be an ultimate issue. I already have to render some stuff down in Avid before I export to DVD or web encode anyway, so these times of rendering can be built into my schedual of working. Like you already suggested, I have my Avid Media Composer 3.0 as my main machine for deadline projects, and I will learn FCP in my spare time. 90 % of my work is on HDV, with the rest coming in on DVC Pro 100 HD and BetaCam SP SD. I think I've been on the US Apple site, so I'll head over to the Canadian site to see what the prices are like. BTW, I have no interest in trying FC Express.
Re: Considering FC Studio Purchase & Need Some Info by Dave Hardy on Oct 14, 2008 at 9:42:04 am
Disregard what I said about the 20' 2.4 iMac that unit only has an ATI 2400 graphics card with 128 meg of Ram. Surprisingly the Nividia card with 512 meg of ram was less powerful than the ATI 2600 Pro. Apple later updated the Nividia drivers but that only brought them up to the same speed as the 2600 Pro.
Apple overcharges for hard drives & memory, but if you don't mind paying extra that's fine.
For a starter iMac system I would consider either a 20' 2.66 for $1399 CDN or a 24" 2.4 gig for $1399 CDN. Of course you could get the 24" 3.6 gig for $1999 CDN but why bother when the quad core iMacs are only a few months away.
Re: Considering FC Studio Purchase & Need Some Info by Arnie Schlissel on Oct 14, 2008 at 3:11:46 pm
[Mark Job]"I may go for a cheaper refurbished unit"
FWIW, I think that Apple's factory refurbs are a great value. They back them with the same 1 year warranty as the new ones, and give you a pretty good discount at the same time.
Arnie
Post production is not an afterthought!
http://www.arniepix.com/
Re: Considering FC Studio Purchase & Need Some Info by Mark Job on Oct 14, 2008 at 3:23:06 pm
Hi Arnie. No, no, this came from this thread and not from any rumour site. Someone here posted last night about the great deals to be had at the Canadian Apple site for refurbished units.
Mark
Re: Considering FC Studio Purchase & Need Some Info by Dave Hardy on Oct 14, 2008 at 7:05:46 pm
Who knows, the recession could throw a monkey wrench into everyones plans. Intel may not have the processors shipping in Dec. Until the development community lean how to adapt their software to access more than 2 processors & until the OS becomes totally 64 bit (Snow Leopard), having more than 6 gig of
Ram is not too great a concern. Final Cut max is 4.5 gig of ram. So any iMac should be fine for you as a learner system.
Buy what you need for your work today. 2009 providing the recession doesn't get in the way promises to be the largest leap forward in technology in the past 20 yrs. So buy what you need for the short term & plan for the major purchase when the warrantee run out.
