Premiere Pro gets an update - where's ours?

[Steve Connor] "Anyone else a bit nervous? "

Nope. You know as well as the rest of us, Apple will not announce zip until they are ready. Adobe is a software only company so they have to get the interest out there to sell software.

Adobe also claims that Encore can seamlessly author BluRay discs. Go read my blog and all my posts in the Encore forum to see how well that's working out. 12 months of wasted time with that software on our part.



Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.

STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now!
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[Mike Schrengohst] "At least with Encore you can make a basic "Blu-Ray" disc. I have successfully been
making 1080p HD content that I can burn on a regular DVD-R that will play
in PS3's. I wish DVDSP could at least do this."

For $1,500 I want to be able to do more than just a "basic" blu-ray disc. If you look at all their marketing, I'm supposed to be able to create fully authored blu-ray titles. Absolutely and utterly false on the Mac. Adobe even stopped contacting us because they have absolutely zero answers and this was working directly with the head of the Encore team, Nathan Gentner who has the quotes on the Encore page praising how easy it is to create an authored BluRay disc.

For a 'basic blu-ray' disc you can get Toast for under $100 and have at it. Our client wants more than basic, hence NetBlender DoStudio.

I think Apple would not want to release something that is limited to a "Play only" button.

As for burning on a regular DVD-R, we have tried that using our standard BluRay compression scheme and all we get is stuttering playback. We have to cut the compression back so far that it's not worth doing that, so we burn directly to BluRay disc to maintain the high quality playback.



Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.

STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now!
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Just curiously, what sector of the media market uses Premiere? All I see in my world (LA, Hollywood...da BIZ) is Avid and FCP. And then higher up ad world stuff ads FLAME and QUANTEL systems. Is this more used by corporate and industrial folks? In the world where Media 100 used to reside (and still does)? Or are there smaller markets using this for broadcast work?

I know that After Effects is a main app in my world, but curious about Premiere. All this talk about what it can do, yet it isn't used for what I do. Don't mean to sound all hoity-toity...just curious.

Thanks,


Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def

I have to agree. I know that a lot of "professionals" don't use Premiere, but I honestly think it's due more from perception on the product than its actual merits. Yes, there were some things with the software that maybe held it back from being in a professional environment, but from the previews I've seen of CS4 and the changes I've read that they made, it looks incredibly kick a**. Virtually every problem I had with CS3 has been resolved.

We work with Media Composers, Symphony's, and DS's here where I work, and it really makes me wish we could work with Premiere.

And Walter, I don't work on a Mac so I've never come across the problems you did with Encore, but that was their first port back over to the Mac. Even Premiere had a bunch of functionality missing and a few bugs on CS3 for Mac. I'm guessing those types of things got ironed out with this new release...but that's just a guess.

I haven't personally pressed the buttons in the program to create it, but I was there when they were bring created, and they came out fine...again, not on a Mac though.

It had menus, but that's about the extent of my knowledge on what went on. I'm not sure on how many menus and all the details on it. Sorry I don't have more in depth information. I've just seen it done twice, and both had menus.

I always heard the they were on an 18 month cycle. If that's true then something should drop next month right? Unless they are just going to hold it for NAB (if they participate).

Exactly. Like I said, I work at an Avid shop, but every suite here has a copy of the production studio because things like AE, Photoshop, Encore, Illustrator, etc., are indispensible for us. But with this new release of Premiere, it took all the features I wanted to see from FCP and Avid and included them all. For example, I much prefer the way Avid patches source and record on the timeline much more than Final Cut or Premiere did, but now Premiere basically does it exactly how Avid does it. I liked the way FCP had blend modes available for every clip, which required a separate effect for Premiere...but not anymore. I liked how in Avid I could have a floating timecode box that I could set up to show me all the source timecodes of every clip on every layer in my sequence...now Premiere has that as well. I absolutely hate the way Avid deals with effects, and Premiere works just like AE and FCP, with awesome integration with AE that I use all the time anyway. There just seems to be hundreds of little improvements that may not seem like a lot, but add up to a much better experience...removing effects on multiple clips at once, adding multiple transitions at once, improvements to their nesting, improvements to PS layer imports, etc.

Anyway, sorry to spew all that at you guys. Here I am, an Avid guy, gushing about Premiere, on the Final Cut board. What can I say...slow day here at work!

[Jeremy Garchow] "I think all these converstaions are good. no reason to be sorry."

Absolutely. Premiere getting better means Apple has to at least answer the bell with improvements. Adobe has come a VERY long way with Premiere since it debuted and their Mac user base would probably have been quite strong had they not abandoned Mac a few years ago.

That's probably the main reason I would not consider switching to them because they left the platform once, who's to say they won't leave again if they can't get enough market share? But that doesn't mean they're not making a great product.



Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.

STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now!
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[David Frisk] "But in that same regard, who's to say Apple won't kill Final Cut? They killed Shake."

1,000,000 registered users is probably one reason you won't see them kill it anytime in the near future. How many people were using Shake? Even at $400 I don't know of many people who used it. It was a very niche software for a niche, high end market.

We have it here and have used it for exactly one project in two years and that was just for format conversion. Also remember Apple was supposed to be replacing Shake with another product. No clue what happened there, but Apple has a tough row to hoe getting into high end markets because everyone wants stuff cheap.

Look at the business model they used for Color. They took a $25,000 2K product called Final Touch 2K and rolled it into the $1,300 price of Studio 2. I still don't understand that to this day, but they know something I don't know.



Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.

STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now!
Read my Blog!

1 million registered users look good for FCP...but Premiere is the most used NLE ever....more users than FCP, Avid, etc, combined! So if you want to go by numbers, I'd think it's safe to say that Premiere isn't going anywhere anytime soon either.

It wasn't too long ago that many people were guessing that Apple WAS going to sell off ProApps...nobody was sure, but it was a possibility in people's minds, 1 million registered users and all.

I guess it all depends on whether ProApps is worth it compared to their iPhone and iPod sales...

Anyway, this is way off the point and I don't really want to get into a discussion as to whether Apple will or was going to sell ProApps. The whole point was that you can't trust that any company is going to continue on with any software. Previous big name players have died, or are dying, and low end players have risen up. Who knows where any software package is going to end up. And Premiere was killed from Mac before it was even a pro app. It was back before it even became Premiere Pro.

My point was that people still believed it could happen, irregardless of the 1 million registered users.

Anyway, like I said before, that was way beyond the point I was getting at anyway.

http://www.adobe.com/products/premiere/features/

If you look under the "exceptional editing control" section, it talks about multitrack targeting, source content control, and track sync locks.

Plus I saw some videos of the new setup. Basically there are now separate source and record side track targeting, and there are sync locks, just like Avid. From the videos I saw, you can have v1 and a1 active on the source side, for example, and v1 AND v2 and a1 active on the record side...so I'm assuming that in an example like that, it would splice in/overwrite on v1 and a1 (if you have it patched v1 to v1 and a1 to a1) and then splice in/overwrite filler on v2 since it's active but is not being patched with anything. And I'm assuming the sync locks would work the same way they did in Avid.

Just to make clear, although I saw the setup, I never saw anyone actually use it to make an edit...but I don't see how it would work any differently quite honestly.

Haha, that is very strange.

But you're right, it is indeed there in the final version. Here's some video I just came across that show it in there. One of them is even for the sync locks.

http://premierepro.wikia.com/wiki/Category:CS4

They also show up on the Premiere videos on the Adobe TV website.

I definitely like it better this way now. I'm used to it working like that in Avid, and I like having the control over which tracks move when I trim.

I'm sorry, as far as the keyboard shortcuts go, I can't say I'm exactly sure what you're talking about as I don't work with Premiere all that often and don't know the keyboard shortcuts.

As far as the whole part about why you would want the whole track selection layout that is now featured...I guess that's more of a preference on how you work. I find most people that come from a Premiere/FCP upbringing like to click and drag whole clips to the timeline and pick which parts of the video they want from the timeline. I find most people who come from an Avid background work more in the way of loading a clip into the source monitor, making in and out points, and using the keyboard to splice-in/overwrite. (Although it doesn't help that Apple decided to make those two keys, probably two of the most important keys, some asinine keyboard command like cmd-F11 or something weird like that if I'm not mistaken). With the track functionality the way it is in Avid and the way it seems Premiere has changed to, it makes it much easier and much more predictable to know which tracks are going to be shifted and which tracks are going to stay put. The way it is in Final Cut now and the way it was in Premiere, unless you locked a track, it was being shifted when you spliced-in (sorry, not sure what the FCP term is...ripple edit? insert edit?). Here you have more control. It's just a much more logical approach to me, as I can get any result I want because I know exactly what's going to happen at any given time.

If I had a sequence with video on v1 and audio on a1-4, and I had a new clip I wanted to use to overwrite a portion of v1, a1, and a2, and at the same time delete the audio on a3 and a4, it would be a two step process in FCP...overwrite v1, a1, and a2, and then delete a3, and a4. With the "Avid setup" you just activate V1, A1, and A2 on the source side with it patched to V1, A1, and A2 on the sequence side, but also activate A3 and A4 on the record side, which in essence will tell the timeline "okay, I also want to do something to these tracks". It will look over at the record side and find nothing patched to it, so it will overwrite that "nothing" over whatever audio was on A3 and A4 into my timeline...therefore, deleting that section.

Sorry for the lengthy explanation. It's kind of hard to explain unless you're used to working that way I guess. As much as I despise working on Avid because of it's completely outdated and idiotic way of dealing with effects, I still think no other editor even comes close to it for having the most refined EDITING interface and having the "fastest" interface. It does things the "right way" in my eyes. Many won't agree I'm sure, but that's my opinion. So it's cool to see that Premiere has adopted that kind of workflow.

I use patching to put edits on the track I want. Sure, I can drag an drop the clips into the appropriate track, but to use all keyboard shortcuts (i.e. F10 for Overwrite) is a stunningly faster way to edit. Most self taught guys are drag and droppers and get the job done just fine. It's just while they are still working, I'd already be home working on my first Sierra Nevada (given the same amount of edits to do). Once you see how much faster you can go, you'll never drag and drop again. Note: It's a HARD habit to break.

Not sure what you mean by trying to edit with CMD + E. I think what you are talking about is extend edit, which is just "E". Select the edit, move the playhead to where you want to extend to. Then, press "E". You do have to have enough handles however.

If you are self trained, it would be worth your while to take one "official" Apple Pro Training course to see how you are supposed to wrangle the software. Another option would be to contact an Apple Certified instructor and see if you can get a 4 hour block of one on one lessons. You can read these forums forever, but only an experienced FCP instructor, or a very experienced FCP user can show you how to connect the dots.

I like Premiere Sync Lock. Very cool. You can ripple multiple tracks in FCP, you just have to select all the edits on the cut line-then drag, or use the bracket keys to dial in your trim. You can also do this in the Trim Edit Window.

Kevin Monahan
http://www.fcpworld.com
Author - Motion Graphics and Effects in Final Cut Pro

Gee, Walter are you suggesting that Adobe isn't committed to the Mac? Whatever gave you that idea... Encore that doesn't work... CS4 with no 64bit support? (sarcasm intentional)

Let's see, we've had 64bit machines for years that actually work, while Windows only recently got them and most don't work. Yep, makes sense to put 64bit on Windows. As for their excuse, it's pathetic. They should have started writing in Cocoa in 2003 like everyone else, and not make excuses that things suddenly changed in 2007. The real topper is them treating us like we're stupid and saying that the lack of 64bit support on the Mac won't be an issue... yeah right... any more than a defective Encore and $1,200 updates aren't a problem... and don't get me started on their draconian registration system that can leave you hanging as a deadline approaches!

This is why we stopped using AE years ago, we no longer develop our website on Adobe products, and we're looking at alternatives to Photoshop. I'm not having my business be dependent on any company that shows such disdain for the Mac market...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.
mitch@insightproductions.com

Most of the people I know who where using Premiere including myself opted to go with FCS, and I'm here in the middle of the US in Missouri, not in LA or East Coast. Matter of fact I don't know anybody who is using Premiere anymore, it's either FCS or Avid.

Photoshop came out with some cool upgrades but Premiere still has some ways to go before they make me a believer.

I think part of the problem for Adobe is most editors have this really bad Premiere hang over from the old days (anyone remember Premiere 4 or 5?), and just don't want to even think about using it. They have Avid or FCP and they're happy. But I really think if they saw what PPro's like now, and played with it, things could change.

Adobe really has to reach that audience that lost faith in Premiere a long time ago. CS4 looks like a big step in trying to do just that.

---Eric

[Paul Del Vecchio] "I couldn't agree with you more, Eric. Premiere is a great editor. At this point, I believe Avid, FCP, and Premiere are all great editors. But yeah, Adobe has to somehow get people to look at Premiere again. I remember talking to a FCP editor and him saying, "I hate Premiere, everything you do, you have to render, render, render." Not the case anymore. Premiere just got a bad rep from before it was Premiere Pro."

The thing is, Premiere Pro has been comparable to FCP ever since it became Premiere PRO - back in 2004 or whatever. Four years later it's rep doesn't seem to have changed. They should have dumped the word "Premiere" from the name and called it something completely different.

Sean

Chris -

Well, I guess it's time you gave Premiere Pro CS4 a look since it's back on the Mac. Trust me - it's not at all what it once was...oh, thank God for that!

Even if you don't want it for your everyday editor, it still has some feaures that you can't get anywhere else.

Come on, Chris - let the resentment go....give it chance!



---Eric

Why? I have an entire shop and workflow built around Final Cut Pro and it works. A few new features on Premiere is not going to sway someone like me to drop FCP and switch to Premiere.

Maybe it won't sway you specifically, but I can see it definitely swaying people like you, or at the very least get them considering something like this. Switching to Premiere would offer some people more than just working with a new editor that has a few bells and whistles added...with integration with other Adobe apps like AE and Photoshop that many, many editors use anyway, it could greatly help out their workflow, speed it up, and streamline it. That's one reason I never really had the desire to switch over to FCP. It's just a different editor, when I'm perfectly happy with Avid. The added tools in the suite would mean nothing to me. I tried learning some motion, but didn't really care too much for it. I never needed a $25,000 coloring tool because I'm not a colorist and probably wouldn't get a whole lot more out of it than I do with built in tools. I don't need DVD studio pro because I find Encore gives me everything Studio Pro does, only more elegantly in the way it works with PS layers and whatnot (yes, I know, you don't like Encore...). But the added suite of Adobe would indeed mean something to me. The ability to work more seamlessly with AE and Photoshop and Encore, which I already use ALL the time, and even Illustrator occasionaly, it adds more than just a simple editor program change.

Sure, you have an established workflow that works fine for you. But some people with an established workflow sometimes look to change for an even better workflow.

But that is your particular case. Not everyone had Color or needs Color. And trust me when I say that having automatic duck is in no way the same as having a dynamically linked composition between Premiere, After Effects, Encore, and Soundbooth for that matter. Throw in Premiere's new even-deeper integration with Photoshop or that fact that it has continuous rasterization of vector layers, and there's a lot there to consider. Or what about if having the ability to do direct-to-disk recording would really be a timesaver? Again, maybe not for you personally, but maybe for someone else. I only bring this up because you act as though someone else shouldn't give this whole package a look just because you wouldn't or don't find it useful. I'm saying that there's plenty of reason for someone with a FCP shop to do it...they may find it useful in a way that you wouldn't because maybe they have different needs or wants than you do. The same way someone like you finds Final Cut Studio useful to you, but I find a waste of many apps if I were to adopt it.

I don't see it as any different than when all the Avid people made the switch over to FCP. I'm in no way saying that a switch would be for everyone, or that everyone should do it or would want to do it. Walter just questioned why someone should consider looking at Premiere when they already have FCP set up. I just gave reasons as to why someone would.

And for what it's worth, FCP and Premiere are incredibly close together as far as operating them. If you know FCP, picking up Premiere can be done in relatively no time, and vice versa. It's not like someone going from FCP to Avid, or Premiere to Quantel, or anything of that nature. They're the two most similar editors that I know of out of the bunch.

On a side note, at least Soundbooth is now multritrack. Meh, whatever :)

KC, you're right-on about Soundbooth. It's weak sauce. I've put two other posts in the Cow to try to "stir it up" a little, since what Adobe did, in arrogant Microsoft fashion, is FORCE me use SB in CS3. In other words, they denied me the ability to configure PP CS3 so that I could right-click on an audio track and see an "Edit in Audition" option that would allow me to "round-trip" edit audio tracks.

Adobe says they replaced Audition with SB in CS3 based on user feedback. And lots of users DO like SB. That's fine! But why FORCE us Audition veterans to use SB? That's why I think Adobe is in danger of becoming the Microsoft of creative software... they are presuming to know what's best for me, trying to think for me, instead of giving me the freedom to decide what works best for me. It really grinds my lights out when companies arrogantly do this. How hard is it to program it like CS2 so you DO have the "edit in Audition" option????

ADOBE, ARE YOU LISTENING???

"Come on, Chris - let the resentment go....give it chance! "

"Why? I have an entire shop and workflow built around Final Cut Pro and it works. A few new features on Premiere is not going to sway someone like me to drop FCP and switch to Premiere."

It was a suggestion for someone else to give it a chance, and you asked why. So I explained why someone else would give it a chance. You then went on to say you don't need to give it a chance because of whatever reasons. So I merely pointed out that your reasons for not giving it a chance doesn't necessarily coincide with everyone and therefore is no reason for someone else not to give it a chance...whether they've already got an established outfit or not.

I realize you don't recommend Premiere...but like you said, you don't use it. I respect the work you do, I love watching your tutorials when you make them (even though I don't use the products), and I'm confident that you're very good at the work you do. But just like I don't recommend Quantel or Edius or any of the other editing tools I don't touch., I don't see how you recommending or not recommending Premiere carries any weight. I'm not saying you tell people not to use it, but your lack of recommendation probably doesn't mean a whole lot when you don't use it in the first place to be able to recommend it.

"HOWEVER - it was also missing basic features like displaying a thumbnail in the bin in list view. That alone kills my workflow."

Click the Icon view button in the bottom left of the project panel - thumbnail view for all the clips in the bin.

---Eric