Output to DVCPro HD
by William Martin
on
Sep 18, 2008 at 2:18:39 pm
I'm trying to output from Final Cut to DVCPro HD. I can output, but the output creates its own timecode. (ie: I can't output from Final Cut with a specific timecode to DVCPro HD).
I've tried pre-striping the tape. It will output, but the final output is always 2.5-3 minutes short.
Re: Output to DVCPro HD by Shane Ross on Sep 18, 2008 at 3:24:09 pm
Wait...is this a 23.98 timeline? That rate is non-drop only. So if you output to tape, which runs at 29.97 (drop frame), then the timing will not match your sequence. You need to adjust your non-drop sequence time to account for this different.
Re: Output to DVCPro HD by Dave LaRonde on Sep 18, 2008 at 6:15:25 pm
[William Martin]"I think the issue seems to be drop-frame...
(which renders the final output 2.5-3 seconds shorter than the original 47:14 master being output).
Is there a setting I've neglected to change?"
No, you just need to keep the differences between DF and NDF in mind.
NDF simply counts frames, displaying them as if the frame rate was 30 instead of 29.97.
DF is a measure of time, and alters he time code to keep it close to the actual passage of time. It DOES NOT get rid of certain video frames. If only alters the time code, dropping certain time code values, following a strict algorithm for altering the time code.
If you have two files -- one DF, the other NDF -- reading the exact same time code of 00:01:00:00 -- the NDF file will be 108 frames longer than the DF file.
Conversely, let's consider the case of an NDF file that's 00:01:00:00 in length. If a DF file is precisely the same duration as this NDF file, its time code will read 00:01:03:18.
Your perceived difference in length would be consistent with this variation in DF and NDF. Your FCP timeline and the video recorded on tape are precisely the same length.
Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA
Whoops! by Dave LaRonde on Sep 18, 2008 at 6:52:07 pm
Sorry, my time codes are off on the post above. Here it is again:
[William Martin] "I think the issue seems to be drop-frame...
(which renders the final output 2.5-3 seconds shorter than the original 47:14 master being output).
Is there a setting I've neglected to change?"
No, you just need to keep the differences between DF and NDF in mind.
NDF simply counts frames, displaying them as if the frame rate was 30 instead of 29.97.
DF is a measure of time, and alters he time code to keep it close to the actual passage of time. It DOES NOT get rid of certain video frames. If only alters the time code, dropping certain time code values, following a strict algorithm for altering the time code.
If you have two files -- one DF, the other NDF -- reading the exact same time code of 01:00:00:00 -- the NDF file will be 108 frames longer than the DF file.
Conversely, let's consider the case of an NDF file that's 01:00:00:00 in length. If a DF file is precisely the same duration as this NDF file, its time code will read 01:00:03:18.
Your perceived difference in length would be consistent with this variation in DF and NDF. Your FCP timeline and the video recorded on tape are precisely the same length.
There.
Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA
Re: Whoops! by William Martin on Sep 18, 2008 at 8:04:36 pm
The final timecode on the DVCPro HD output, though, is about 3 seconds shorter than the final timecode on the FCP project. And when the new output is digitized and opened in FCP, it's also about 3 seconds shorter.
Re: Whoops! by Shane Ross on Sep 18, 2008 at 8:17:46 pm
Yes...and it will be. You have to understand the difference between drop frame timecode and non-drop. You do know that non-drop code isn't an exact measure of time...it isn't accurate. It is just a frame count basically. ONly non-drop gets you accurate to clock time.
Re: Whoops! by Dave LaRonde on Sep 18, 2008 at 8:27:32 pm
[Shane Ross]"Only non-drop gets you accurate to clock time. "
Or vice-versa. :)
When you get used to using one kind of time code, it's a right royal pain to think in terms of the other kind of time code. It REALLY makes you wish that when they developed HDTV they specified a 30fps frame rate instead of sticking with 29.97.
We could have been rid of this DF-NDF nonsense.
Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA
Re: Whoops! by Dave LaRonde on Sep 18, 2008 at 8:18:58 pm
Once you get into a DF-NDF mixup, it can get really confusing. And now I'm confused too.
In your original post, you wrote, "It will output, but the final output is always 2.5-3 minutes short."
In your latest post, you wrote, "The final timecode on the DVCPro HD output, though, is about 3 seconds shorter than the final timecode on the FCP project."
There's a big difference between an error of minutes and one of seconds. One implies a frame rate mismatch, which Shane thinks it is. The other implies a DF-NDF mixup, which I think it is.
Which error is the right error?
Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA
Re: Whoops! by William Martin on Sep 18, 2008 at 8:25:37 pm
Sorry! It's 2.5-3 SECONDS off, not minutes.
(And sorry I'm not 100% up on all the technical info behind all this. I'm a production manager trying to sort this out while the editor is in the suite cutting the next show to try to keep to schedule).
So it's a drop-frame vs non-drop frame issue?
Is there any way to get it to output to have the same timecode as the original final cut project?
As I mentioned, right now it'll output (with the few seconds difference in timecode) and when it's digitized and opened in final cut, it is still a few seconds short.
Where is the drop-fram vs non drop-frame issue occurring? And where can that be changed so the output and the original FC project file match?
Re: Whoops! by Shane Ross on Sep 18, 2008 at 8:31:20 pm
YOu can't output it and have it just match up. The issue is that your show time was cut to an NDF timeline, which isn't TO CLOCK accurate. You need to figure out what your timing needs to be in an NDF timeline, add those seconds to the cut (add footage, make moments last longer...editing tricks), so your output will be of the proper time.
Re: Whoops! by Dave LaRonde on Sep 18, 2008 at 8:54:34 pm
[William Martin]"So it's a drop-frame vs non-drop frame issue? "
It sure sounds like it to me! I've got five whole American Dollars that say it's a timecode mixup.
"Is there any way to get it to output to have the same timecode as the original final cut project"
Yes: make sure that the time code type of both your FCP timeline AND your tape deck match. On what kind of time code has your facility standardized: DF or NDF? Use it.
And for your future sanity, find out how the discrepancy occurred in the first place, and make sure it doesn't happen again.
"As I mentioned, right now it'll output (with the few seconds difference in timecode) and when it's digitized and opened in final cut, it is still a few seconds short. "
Let's see if I've got this straight:
� You cut together a program in FCP, and it tells you that the duration is 47:14:00.
� You lay the program to tape, and now the program's duration has become something like 47:11:00.
� Just to see what's happening, you re-capture the program off the recording you JUST made as a single clip, but NOW its duration is something like 47:08:00, instead of either 47:11:00 or 47:14:00!!!!!
Well, that's just time-warp nonsense. Try this:
� Duplicate your original timeline for the program.
� Trim up the in & out points of the re-captured program so that it matches the beginning and end of the program in the timeline.
� On newly-created video layers in the duplicated timeline, add the recaptured program clip at the point where the program edit begins.
Does the duration of the program clip now match the duration of the edited program? You got yourself a DF-NDF mixup goin' on.
Is the duration of the program clip a few seconds off from the duration of the edited program? You've got something else going on that approaches the physically impossible.
And listen to Shane's advice.
Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA
Re: Whoops! by William Martin on Sep 18, 2008 at 9:02:35 pm
Thanks so much guys!
So it's definitely a DF/NDF issue. (Editor's confirmed that, too). Now, I understand we could alter the timeline in FCP to make it 47:14;00 NDF and output that and it should come out with perfect time code.
Is there a way to change the settings on the deck so that it could be DF? We need to deliver masters in DF, so just changing everything to be 47:14;00 in NDF won't really help much in that regard.
And Dave: no. The output is, say, 47:11;00. When that is digitized and opened in Final Cut, it's still 47:11;00... not an additional few seconds short. (Just a few seconds shorter than the original project - because, I'm guessing, of this whole NDF/DF thing). If it was an additional few seconds short it would certainly be a whole other issue!
Re: Whoops! by Dave LaRonde on Sep 18, 2008 at 9:07:26 pm
[William Martin]"Is there a way to change the settings on the deck so that it could be DF? "
If there isn't, you need a new deck. It shouldn't be too tough to change the DF-NDF setting in whatever menu or submenu it hides. Operator's manuals are great.
Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA
Re: Whoops! by William Martin on Sep 18, 2008 at 9:18:39 pm
So a little more detail:
It's a Panasonic AJ-HD1400 DVCPro HD deck.
Opened the menu, went to Time Code (500) and made sure it was set to DF (511), which it was.
Are there any other settings that would influence DF vs NDF?
Re: Whoops! by Shane Ross on Sep 18, 2008 at 9:22:03 pm
No...what you need to do is make your NDF sequence LONGER, so that when it is laid back as DF, the timing matches. I lay out a workflow on how to get that timing in that link to my blog I provided.
So if your show is 44:14:00, then your NDF sequence will have to be something like 44:17:12...or something. I show you how to figure this out.
Re: Whoops! by Dave LaRonde on Sep 18, 2008 at 9:26:00 pm
It would appear that you did it correctly, but I'm not familiar with the deck. Someone else will need to confirm this.
It's also possible that this particular editing job was cut in a timeline using the wrong sort of timecode, and that the entire FCP project was set up that way.
Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA
