Decklink HD Extreme vs AJA Kona 3
by Greg Verspohl
on
Sep 16, 2008 at 5:41:35 pm
Hello all.
I am looking to buy an SDI board for FCP. Has anyone used the new DeckLink HD Extreme (by Black Magic) and how do you all think it compares to the AJA Kona 3? (I know it is cheaper, but is it better?)
Re: Decklink HD Extreme vs AJA Kona 3 by Chris Poisson on Sep 16, 2008 at 6:05:36 pm
You really should just read the specs on each carefully, I see the Decklink card as capable of cross conversion of HD formats, while I believe the Kona can do full blown upconversion. Don't know if you need that, but Blackmagic make great products, I've owned both, and I prefer AJA products. The support is unbelievable. Plus, the HDMI scheme on the BM card is ridiculous, takes up an extra slot FCOL.
Re: Decklink HD Extreme vs AJA Kona 3 by Herb Sevush on Sep 16, 2008 at 6:48:12 pm
Greg -
You want cheaper AND better? How abuot cheaper and it does a good job as what it does. The Kona3 has more features - in this case you get what you pay for - you just have to figure out what it is you need.
Re: Decklink HD Extreme vs AJA Kona 3 by Lu Nelson on Sep 17, 2008 at 7:59:10 am
From what I've read, editors seem to also like the AJA boards better because they have a faster response time. Blackmagic has a 4 frame response lag that is very annoying during editing, when you are shuttling around -- although it must be said that most cards have *some* lag.
Also Blackmagic has a history of unfortunate long-standing software issues, like when certain cards would cause systems with more than 2GB of RAM to crash, or the persistent system slow-down that happened with the Decklink Extreme (you can search this on the BM forum), and these took many months, even more than a year to be resolved, and were rarely properly acknowledged or documented.
Re: Decklink HD Extreme vs AJA Kona 3 by walter biscardi on Sep 17, 2008 at 8:15:40 am
First do a search on this forum for Kona 3 and for Decklink. There have been a ton of questions just like this in the past.
I tested BlackMagic products in the past and they simply didn't deliver. We own three Kona 3's and an Io LA. They cost more, but they work and they work as promised.
Not sure on the Decklink, but the Kona boards can also be set up as a stand alone converter to work independently of the computer. this is an awesome feature when you want to make dubs or do some sort of deck to deck or deck to DVD recorder transfer.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: Decklink HD Extreme vs AJA Kona 3 by Mark Raudonis on Sep 19, 2008 at 12:15:10 pm
[walter biscardi]"the Kona boards can also be set up as a stand alone converter to work independently of the computer. this is an awesome feature when you want to make dubs or do some sort of deck to deck or deck to DVD recorder transfer."
This feature recently saved us twenty THOUSAND dollars!
The comparable "conversion" board set for a SONY HDCAMsr deck is around $10k. Two decks? $20K.
We had to convert from 23.97 (on tape) to 29.97(on DVD) and just used the Kona 3 as a stand alone converter. In my mind, this feature alone justifies the cost of the Kona 3.
I agree with everyone else on feature set, company service, and reliability.
Re: Decklink HD Extreme vs AJA Kona 3 by gary adcock on Sep 17, 2008 at 8:20:48 am
greg
the big differences depend on your workflow, at IBC for AJA, I had maybe 25 people come up and ask about switching to Kona 3's due to limited functionality for DPX, 444, and RED workflows when working with the Decklink cards.
Mainly due to the Kona's handling all conversions in hardware as opposed to BMD's use of CPU power for the many of those same conversions, but I was really surprised how many people were willing to tear apart their systems to put Kona's in them so they would work.
gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD
Re: Decklink HD Extreme vs AJA Kona 3 by John Magin on Sep 17, 2008 at 4:05:43 pm
Personally and professionally, I skew towards Aja. Primarily it's their ease of use, intuitive control panels ( you can see when a signal is active, upconverting, etc) Their driver development s on-point and their tech support has been a boon to me when I have been on site. I have yet to RMA-check an AJA card. I have done 3 for Blackmagic within the past year.
I think BMD is good, but Aja is better, fwiw.
Go for the LHe if you're not planning Dual link/massive rez projects.
Re: Decklink HD Extreme vs AJA Kona 3 by Jason Porthouse on Sep 17, 2008 at 6:09:16 pm
Just to redress the balance a little - I have a Multibridge Pro 2 from BM and it's so far been great. I'm not sure where Lu got his info on the lag from - I certainly haven't experienced it from any BM products and I wouldn't tolerate it if it did. It's a very snappy editing experience in SD and HD. IQ is excellent too.
I'm not a BM fanboy, I just happen to think their products offer good value and (so far) good reliability. I like AJA too - for me it came down to cost. I'm happy with my decision, and I think you'd be happy with either - as long as they fulfil your needs.
Jason
_________________________________
Before you criticise a man, walk a mile in his shoes.
Then when you do criticise him, you'll be a mile away. And have his shoes.
Re: Decklink HD Extreme vs AJA Kona 3 by Neil Sadwelkar on Sep 22, 2008 at 12:32:11 pm
I would agree with Jason. At our post facility in we have 3 BM HD Pro cards working about 12-16 hours a day in FCP systems since Jan 2005. We had HDPlus cards which BM swapped out for free when we had some issues with genlock.
We also have BM Extreme and HD Extreme cards, MBridge Pros, BM HDLinks, about 15 BM products in operation here.
Check in your area who's support is better. That might be a deal-breaker.
There have been opinions expressed about why AJA is better quality than BM - AJA are more expensive - but ask to see a comparison that proves this in a quantitative and repeatable way.
BM cards and converters are not cheap, but they cost less than AJA. But they deliver what they are supposed to. Their up/down conversions aren't too good, though, and maybe AJA's are better in this respect. If this feature matters to you, check for a side by side to take a fair decision.
And yes, I haven't come across the '4 frame lag'. I have however, come across bad 24-25 conversion when playing 24@25 timelines as PAL.
Re: Decklink HD Extreme vs AJA Kona 3 by walter biscardi on Sep 22, 2008 at 12:39:42 pm
[Neil Sadwelkar]"BM cards and converters are not cheap, but they cost less than AJA. But they deliver what they are supposed to. Their up/down conversions aren't too good, though, and maybe AJA's are better in this respect. If this feature matters to you, check for a side by side to take a fair decision. "
A question Neil since you have a lot of experience with the BM products. Do they operate as stand-alone converters, independent of FCP? Just curious because I've never heard anyone talk about that with BM products.
Essentially any Kona product can be put into Pass-Through Mode so it can operate as a stand alone A/D, HD to SD, SD to HD converter to allow deck to deck transfers independent of FCP. This is really handy for us when making HD to Beta dubs, making HD to DVD dubs and up-converting SD material to HD for clients without having to ingest anything.
Thanks!
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: Decklink HD Extreme vs AJA Kona 3 by Neil Sadwelkar on Sep 22, 2008 at 6:59:24 pm
[walter biscardi]"A question Neil since you have a lot of experience with the BM products. Do they operate as stand-alone converters, independent of FCP? Just curious because I've never heard anyone talk about that with BM products.
Essentially any Kona product can be put into Pass-Through Mode so it can operate as a stand alone A/D, HD to SD, SD to HD converter to allow deck to deck transfers independent of FCP. This is really handy for us when making HD to Beta dubs, making HD to DVD dubs and up-converting SD material to HD for clients without having to ingest anything. "
You know what. I've not had occasion to try this out, but I doubt if it would work that way with any of the BM cards. The Multibridge however does work as a standalone converter. And we use it to output/input from analog Beta or to drive speakers. We even have one system with MBridge Pro with a DVI display hooked up as external monitor.
In any case even if we had a Kona in pass-through we wouldn't use it for HD to SD dubs. For one thing, it would block an FCP suite, and wouldn't fetch any cash.
For another, we need to make dubs from HDCamSR, HDCam or D-5 to DigiBeta from a 1080p24 tape to a 25 fps DigiBeta. All the three named HD tape decks do this by speeding the tape 4%. This is not acceptable to our PAL film based materials as it changes the duration and could have revenue implications with channels.
So we have to capture to an FCP or Avid Uncompressed system. These are the only two systems (AFAIK) that can take a 24 fps timeline and output it as 25fps with a 1 frame repeat. In real time with no render.
Doesn't look too nice, but its what clients need. And this way they pay for FCP time too.
While the subject is BM Extreme HD or Aja Kona 3, two other issues I saw/heard of recently.
The Kona 3 doesn't recognize a dual link 4:4:4 signal from a Cintel telecine. This was at a client's place over a thousand km from where I live. I flew down and spent hours trying various settings in a Kona 3 and an iO HD.
Eventually the client (and reseller) gave up and I heard later they bought a BM card.
The same client also said he earlier had a requirement of capturing a live video feed with VITC and an iOHD couldn't resolve time code. I didn't see this for myself but I have managed such a capture from a BM card for a TV reality show.
Discalimer: I'm not proving that the Kona 3 or iOHD could not have been made to work in both situations, just that it proved difficult.
But to be fair, I know of one facility not too far from me where they have two FCP systems with a Kona 3 each. Let me check how they are faring.
Re: Decklink HD Extreme vs AJA Kona 3 by walter biscardi on Sep 22, 2008 at 7:13:24 pm
[Neil Sadwelkar]"In any case even if we had a Kona in pass-through we wouldn't use it for HD to SD dubs. For one thing, it would block an FCP suite, and wouldn't fetch any cash. "
No it doesn't. That's the point. You can continue to work in FCP, or use the machine for any other purpose. The Kona board works as an independent converter so I can make the dubs / transfers while still working on an edit, creating graphics, working in After Effects, authoring DVD's, etc... The machine itself is not tied to anything while you're using the Kona as a converter.
We do this fairly often where we'll use any of our three systems in pass-through mode while that same system is still being used for either editing or something else.
Thanks for the info!
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
Re: Decklink HD Extreme vs AJA Kona 3 by Neil Sadwelkar on Sep 23, 2008 at 6:53:22 am
Wow. That's amazing. I didn't know of this feature.
But if the Kona is being used as 'pass-through' and the system is used for editing, how can the editor monitor the edit on an external monitor, since (presumably) the output is being used for the convert output.
Re: Decklink HD Extreme vs AJA Kona 3 by walter biscardi on Sep 23, 2008 at 11:52:20 am
[Neil Sadwelkar]" how can the editor monitor the edit on an external monitor, since (presumably) the output is being used for the convert output. "
During this time, you would not view to the external video monitors. You would only cut with the Viewer / Canvas using the Apple audio playback. We have the output of our Macs connected to our Mackie 1202s so we can listen to the audio using our normal audio monitors.
So the only thing you're limited to is color grading. You can edit away and even perform a full sound mix as far as editing. But obviously if a show is ready for final color grading, we would not use that particular system for the Pass Through mode. That's one of the nice things about having three suites, generally one of them is always in a rough cut, sound sweetening, graphics, animation situation so we can use that room as needed.
it is a very cool feature and one that most people don't realize is there. Same rules apply as editing with FCP whereby you have total control of all three outputs and can lay off any combination of Up / Down / Cross conversion.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.
