de interlace filter sucks !!!

	Re: de interlace filter sucks !!! by Andy Mees on Aug 19, 2008 at 12:37:23 pm RE:Vision Effects Fields Kit http://www.revisionfx.com/products/fieldskit/ Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: de interlace filter sucks !!! by Jeremy Garchow on Aug 19, 2008 at 3:19:04 pm [Andy Mees] "RE:Vision Effects Fields Kit " Another vote for this one. Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: de interlace filter sucks !!! by Dave LaRonde on Aug 19, 2008 at 3:16:20 pm [Rajarshi Basu] "I am editing a feature length documentary and I need to deinterlace my footage... what are the good 3rd party deinterlace filters available for FCP ? " Well, let's ask the more fundamental questions first. At what frame rate did you shoot this footage? Using what kind of camera? What's the frame rate of your FCP timeline? And most importantly, how must you DELIVER this project -- how is it intended to be shown? Dave LaRonde Sr. Promotion Producer KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: de interlace filter sucks !!! by Dave LaRonde on Aug 20, 2008 at 12:03:39 am [Rajarshi Basu] "The footage has been shot in Sony Pd 170 and Z1P in DVCam mode. Its 25fps. I will be broadcasting it from Digi Beta." Whew. Then you won't have any frame rate problems. And you know, you don't HAVE to turn the footage into progressive... it's not like it's an obligation or anything. And you're also working in standard-definition, because Digibeta's standard-definition. Which is nice. "I will be doing my final color correction on Quantel or Smoke where I will scale up the footage to make the film 16:9 and then transferring it to Digi Beta. " How come? I don't understand why you're jumping through all those extra hoops. For one thing, if you get good using Color, you can do all the color grading right on your own machine, without incurring the expense of rented hardware boxes. And here's something else -- how about if you simply letterbox the footage in FCP, thus making the image 16x9 in a 4x3 frame, and simply adjust the shots' vertical positions? Your images lose no quality. Otherwise, here's what you're proposing to do: you'd scale it up (losing picture quality) and make it anamorphic (losing more picture quality-- remember that Digibeta is 4x3)... so they can do what? So they can show it in standard-definition, which is 4x3, not 16x9. In order to make your anamorphic 16x9 TV picture play in standard-definition, they would have to do WHAT to it? Why, they'd have to letterbox it: they'd have to fit your 16x9 image into a 4x3 frame. If you ask me, that's a lot of extra work -- plus time and MONEY -- on a Smoke or a Flame or a Whatever-It-Is for images that will in the end degrade in picture quality. And after all that hard work you will have put into the color grading, too. That's a shame. Dave LaRonde Sr. Promotion Producer KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: de interlace filter sucks !!! by Dave LaRonde on Aug 20, 2008 at 3:24:24 pm Now what I'm aware of your delivery requirements, your workflow makes sense. Dave LaRonde Sr. Promotion Producer KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: de interlace filter sucks !!! by Andy Mees on Aug 20, 2008 at 3:35:44 pm am assuming you shot Anamorphic 16:9 right? if thay are asking for a 16:9 delivery on digibeta then they are almost certainly intending that you deliver as Anamorphic 16:9 .. recheck your deliverables if you shot interlaced anamorphic 16:9 and your delivery format is interlaced anamorphic 16:9 then there should be no need for a deinterlacer, third party or otherwise, nor should there be any need for upscaling, resizing, letterboxing etc ie no extra loss of quality beyond the capture format Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: de interlace filter sucks !!! by Sean ONeil on Aug 19, 2008 at 6:30:52 pm Simplest solution of all. Change field dominance to None. This will work in certain scenarios. As Dave mentioned, without knowing what kind of footage your dealing with it's impossible to say what the best solution is. Sean Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: de interlace filter sucks !!! by Zach Rutledge on Sep 29, 2008 at 7:38:44 pm I am having the same problems with my footage. I shoot on a SDX900 in the 24P mode. Capturing SDI in uncompressed 8 bit using a Kona LHe card from a AJ-SD93 Deck. I have two images to show. The first is of the original footage without using the de-interlace feature in FCP. The Second is after the de-interlace is applied. As you can see the artifacting going on is extremely bad and after playing with other plugins to try to fix this, I am getting no better results. Could this be my capture set up or an in camera problem? Any help is appreciated. Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: de interlace filter sucks !!! by Jeremy Garchow on Sep 29, 2008 at 8:01:05 pm It's hard to tell here as you aren't including much footage with movement. Look at the top picture, it looks progressive. Jeremy Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: de interlace filter sucks !!! by Jeremy Garchow on Sep 29, 2008 at 9:15:31 pm Please show me an interlaced frame, or post a couple frames of video. Jeremy Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: de interlace filter sucks !!! by Jeremy Garchow on Sep 29, 2008 at 8:43:11 pm Yeah, when you deinterlace a progressive image, that's what you get as you are throwing away half the resolution. Prove to me that your footage is interlaced and I might have some ideas. The image of your original footage looks progressive to me. Jeremy Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: de interlace filter sucks !!! by Zach Rutledge on Sep 29, 2008 at 9:17:15 pm Uh, do you believe me now?? Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: de interlace filter sucks !!! by Jeremy Garchow on Sep 29, 2008 at 9:30:37 pm Yep, thank you. When you deinterlace the footage, have you set your timeline to a field dominance of none? Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: de interlace filter sucks !!! by Jeremy Garchow on Sep 29, 2008 at 9:57:30 pm Can you post a few frames of video in whatever codec you're working in? Hvae you tried any plug ins? FCPs deinterlacer sucks. Have you tried Compressor? Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: de interlace filter sucks !!! by Jeremy Garchow on Sep 29, 2008 at 10:22:34 pm Wait a minute. I just reread your initial post and I missed the part about being shot in 24p. What you are seeing is pulldown and not traditional interlacing. That's why I bet that first shot looks progressive, because it is. If you are delivering to NTSC tape, then what you are doing is futile as the motion characteristics will be totally messed up (deinterlacing pulldown will result in unnatural looking footage). And if you remove the pulldown, it will just get added again when you go back to tape and even monitor your footage. What are your delivery requirements? Jeremy Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: de interlace filter sucks !!! by Dave LaRonde on Sep 29, 2008 at 11:40:35 pm [Zach Rutledge] "A colleague of mine, once I told him about your post and question, said he did not believe 24p had a pulldown but that the 24pa mode was the one with the pulldown. Is this not the case?" To put it mildly, your colleague is full of prunes. Both 24p AND 24pa contain pulldown. The difference between the two lies in the pulldown cadence. And if you're going to do ANY of the following: • A film-out • A 24p dvd • Web video • Motion graphics whose motion absolutely, positively has to match the motion of the video You have to remove the pulldown and edit at a frame rate of 23.976, aka 23.98 in some circles. Here's a good reference: http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/fcp_homepage_index.html#hd_hdv_24p Read Graeme Nattress' article on 24p and the DVX 100. While it may not be not your particular type of camera, there's a good section on the difference between 24p and 24pa, and the principles still apply. Dave LaRonde Sr. Promotion Producer KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: de interlace filter sucks !!! by Jeremy Garchow on Sep 29, 2008 at 11:43:12 pm All SD NTSC camera that record 24p record with pulldown. 24p and 24PA both have pulldown, just different cadences. Have your colleague read the FCP manual or this for more info: http://www.adamwilt.com/24p/#24pRecording Now, since you are delivering to Beta, you don't really have to remove the pulldown as your tape is 29.97 and so is your sequence. For the web, you can remove the pulldown, but it's not that easy to do and I am not sure if you have the time or budget. It is easiest to remove pulldown before you begin editing. You can try compressor, but I am not sure how it'd do on cadence breaks, and if you have been editing 29.97, all of your graphics have rendered interlaced anyway, so it's going to look weird. This time, don't worry about it. Next time, you should start this process much earlier. Jeremy Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: de interlace filter sucks !!! by Jeremy Garchow on Sep 30, 2008 at 12:17:30 am [Zach Rutledge] "We shot footage on the same camera, the SDX900, using the 60i mode having the same effect as the 24p footage when deinterlaced. " Zach, I don't know why you don't believe what I am telling you. Did you shoot 60i or 24p? Did you read that link I sent? Did you read it carefully? I am now confused if you have shot 60i or 24p (which is still recorded in a 60i stream) because you have now said both. You have a Kona card. Please, step through your footage frame by frame. If you truly shot 24p, you will see 3 whole frames (or progressive), then 2 segmented (or interlaced) frames. If you can, please post 1 second of the video so I can see it. [Zach Rutledge] "And as you can see, around heads and shoulders you see some kind of jagged edges that are formed. " If you shot 24p, then you have progressive frames AND interlaced frames (please read that article I sent). When you try and deinterlace a progressive frame, those jagged lines are you effectively throwing your resolution in half as you are taking a progressive frame and knocking it down to one field. Also, if you are trying to deinterlace 60i material to make it look like 24p, there are better ways to do it. When you deinterlace 60i material, you are essentially turning it into 30p which does not look like 24p. [Zach Rutledge] "I was really thinking it was a set up problem either in the camera, deck, capture card, or Final Cut. " Well, if you shot 60i and meant to shoot 24p, that's the camera. It won't be the deck/capture card, and it could be FCP but I am now confused as to what you are trying to do. [Zach Rutledge] "I have tried using Compressor with no luck. " What did you try? [Zach Rutledge] "So if shooting on a SDX900 in the 24p mode, can anyone help me with the proper settings in the camera, Final Cut, Kona LHe card and deck to hopefully prevent this from happening?" We used to shoot 24p with the SDX all the time. If you want a truly progressive workflow for the web, you have to remove the pulldown. Please read the article since my advice seems to be filled with incredibility. Jeremy Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: de interlace filter sucks !!! by Jeremy Garchow on Sep 30, 2008 at 1:24:41 am Where did you post the pictures? And please read this. It's quick: http://www.adamwilt.com/24p/#24pRecording Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: de interlace filter sucks !!! by Jeremy Garchow on Sep 30, 2008 at 1:26:43 am [Zach Rutledge] "Still back to square one, if both 24p setting and 60i setting come out looking like the same after I deinterlace the footage, wouldn't one assume that the pulldown has no effect on my issue?" No. I still don't understand if you have 60i or 24p material and how much of each you have. If you can, please post what you think is 24p and what you think is 60i. www.yousendit.com Jeremy Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: de interlace filter sucks !!! by Jeremy Garchow on Sep 30, 2008 at 5:03:41 am [Zach Rutledge] "I have two separate tapes from two separate shoots. One shoot was recorded using 24p. One shoot was recorded using 60i. " You should have stated this in your very first post. You have posted here 13 times before giving this out. I now have more questions. Are you trying to get the 24p to look like 60i or the 60i to look like 24p? Why do you need to deinterlace? What is your ultimate goal? Strictly deinterlacing the 24p material will look like crap for reasons that I have already stated more than twice. If you have read that article and understood how 24p gets recorded to ntsc tape, you might know why it would like crap. Why deinterlace progressive footage? The 60i material will look much better deinterlaced if you get a plugin. You can also consider making the 60i material look like 24p with Nattress film effects. Your sequence needs to be set to a field dominance of none for deinterlacing to work. This is not magic, this is a lot of work and you need to treat the different kinds of footage in different ways if you are attempting to match the footage. They will never be identical, but you can get close. If you post a second or two of each kind of footage, I will gladly show you a deinterlace of 60i footage in a couple of different ways and a rev telecine (pulldown removal) of 24p footage. Jeremy Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: de interlace filter sucks !!! by Jeremy Garchow on Oct 1, 2008 at 5:27:08 am Yeah, I know. My stupid cheesing grin is at the top of this page and that by default, makes me an easy target for not knowing what I am doing. I get it, Seth. Thanks. For you, I will not dance around the issue, but straight in to it and with it. Hopefully I will be more clear this time as this issue is obviously very important to you. I hope I am not wasting any more of your time as my subpar knowledge is of no use, but I encourage you will read to the end of this post. Also, I don't think I danced around the issue as I answered every post. These forums are a two way street. Since I am now feeling that for a seemingly unnecessary reason I have to prove my self worth after the countless free hours I give to you and your colleagues about this type of information that has been disseminated through various websites books, and god forbid, manuals, I will do my very best to explain what is happening in a way that you will understand. I did not make this up, by the way. This is how video works. I am sorry, though, as there are no pictures with this lesson. Here you go and try to follow along. As always, if you get confused, ask again. I am here for you (as a volunteer at that) even after you called me out for your misunderstandings. Because Zach knows what menu to tweak in the SDX to get from 24p to 60i does not mean he knows what to do with the footage, or combine the two different kinds of footage (no offense, Zach, I am sure you're a bright guy). I asked Zach a few questions that he did not answer. That makes it hard to help, especially after I gave the answers more than twice in the same thread. I even offered to show Zach the difference with his own footage, but he did not respond. Zach also did not divulge if he was trying to mix 24p and 60i footage, only that he was trying to deinterlace 24p footage in the original post. If you look at his first two pictures he posted, you will see that the top original picture is progressive, which is why I questioned him in the first place. Just curious, Seth, but have you looked at 24p footage on a frame by frame basis before? Have you captured 24p NTSC video before? With a Kona? With a dv50 deck? Do you even know what settings could be changed on that deck? If so, why aren't you offering any advice? Like I said, just curious. Also, I help many people on the very forum all at varying degress of experince. Since I cannot see what Zach is seeing, it's best if i ask him to show me what his footage looks like to make sure we are on the same page. Getting even a seocnd of video helps. It makes it much much easier. I will say that I worked with and edited with an SDX900 for the better part of 3 years. I know it like the back of my hand. I know what 60i is and I know what 24p is as referred to the SDX900, and also what 24pA is when referred to the SDX900. I also know what you need to do in post, as I am an editor. You know the p in 24p? That stands for progressive which is to say without fields in a video world. However, when you shoot 24p on an NTSC camera, it gets recorded to a 60i stream (that i stands for interlaced) as NTSC tape cannot record 24 discreet progressive frames and ALWAYS records @ 29.97 (but you know that, right?). If you shoot in 24p mode (sometimes referred to as 24p Normal) there is a normal 3:2 pulldown cadence to spread the 24 frames across 30 frames to record to the SMPTE NTSC spec. That's three fields followed by two fields (3:2). This is commonly referred to in an ABCD pattern. So if 24p is ABCD with each frame being a progressive frame, recording to a 60i stream with 3 fields, 2 fields pulldown pattern would result in AA BB BC CD DD. Each one of those capital letters represents a field of video as in HALF of a frame of resolution. So, in Zach's case, he is trying to deinterlace footage in which 66% of it is already progressive. That corresponds to frames AA BB and DD above. Now, since the other two frames of the cadence are made up of part of the frame around it (B & D) and also have a two fields of another discreet frame (C) deinterlacing can get tricky as you will end up with a duplicate field or a bad combination of B&C or C&D which will end up as looking like unnatural motion. So, let's say you are going to deinterlace, that means you are taking a field from AA BB and DD and either duplicating it or most likely (as it's the fastest) blending it. That means you are now blending a field with itself to construct a full frame, which would result in Zach's mushy looking deinterlaced footage (that's why I asked why he'd want to deinterlace a progressive frame). For the other two frames, you can either throw away a field and duplicate it (so in the BC frame, you'd be left with BB, and the CD frame you'd be left with CC) so if you put that sequence together you'd have AA BB BB CC DD, that's a duplicated frame which will look like crap, that's right, crap. If you use a blend technique you'd have A blended with itself, B blended with itself, BC blended, CD blended and D blended with itself. Again, this will not look good or maintain optimal quality. Capturing 24p with pulldown and 60i material with a Kona card happens the exact same way, there are no differences in the way you capture it. It's all 60i to the Kona. You end up with 29.97 fps video. You can in fact remove 3:2 pulldown with a Kona card to extract the extra fields and leave you with 24p (23.98) video, but the process is fairly complicated and in no way automatic. Your deck and Kona card have to be precisely calibrated to the frame and your logging has to be ultra meticulous. So, back to Zach's case. What he needs to do is conform his 60i video to look more like 24p video with pulldown (I think, he won't tell me). This is also not an exact process. Nattress film effects will do this, It's a plug in and takes a long time to render. www.nattress.com The other thing Zach can do is use compressor for a reverse telecine process on his 24p video and receive 23.98 files for editing (that would remove those extra B and D fields and reconstruct the C frame which would leave ABCD), maintaining a progressive workflow (since that seem to be important to him as he's trying to deinterlace, but again, he won't tell me). He would then need to convert his 60i video to 23.98 video. Again, nattress has a plug in for this, or you can try and use compressor. It won't look like 24p video because it's not, but it will look less like 60i video and more like 24p video. Hopefully that helps. Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: de interlace filter sucks !!! by Jeremy Garchow on Oct 1, 2008 at 4:32:05 pm [Zach Rutledge] "Help if you want." Dude, I am here to help, I seriously want to help. Am I crazy? Yep. Does it matter? No, let's try and solve this issue. Please tell me why you said that footage was 24p? Here's your first post with the pictures quoted, can you see why I am fixated on 24p? [Zach Rutledge] "I am having the same problems with my footage. I shoot on a SDX900 in the 24P mode. Capturing SDI in uncompressed 8 bit using a Kona LHe card from a AJ-SD93 Deck. I have two images to show. The first is of the original footage without using the de-interlace feature in FCP. The Second is after the de-interlace is applied. As you can see the artifacting going on is extremely bad and after playing with other plugins to try to fix this, I am getting no better results. Could this be my capture set up or an in camera problem? Any help is appreciated." Now, since that first picture you sent (which I assuume is the footage you are trying to deinterlace, otherwise, why woudl you post it?) that picture, that orginial picture is progressive. The second pciture you posted in the other post (after I asked you to send me an interlaced frame) is interlaced, which is probably a pulldown frame. I know this brings us full circle, but in order to solve probelms we have to get to the root of the issue and both of us have to start from the same place, otherwise we will go in circles, and both of us have to start from the same place, otherwise we will go in circles, and both of us have to start from the same place otherwise.... Any chance you can post a second around that exact original frame that you posted? [Zach Rutledge] "So to make it simple, how should a piece of 60i footage be captured, what should the Kona LHe card bet set at, what should the sequence in FCP be set at. " When capturing 24p or 60i footage from NTSC, you simply use the 29.97 NTSC easy setups. Since you are cpatureing 8bit unc, you would use the AJA KonaLHe 525i 29.97 8 bit easy setup. You timeline should be set for NTSC 8bit, 29.97 frame rate and set for lower field first field domininace. You would use the exact settings for 24p material as well, unless you decide to remove the pulldown in wihch case you settings would be different. Jeremy Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: de interlace filter sucks !!! by gary adcock on Oct 1, 2008 at 2:34:20 pm [Seth Hancock] "My $.02! " and how completely worthless your $.02 is too... Since you are so wise and knowledgeable on this subject why have you only chimed in once? and some 300 posts in 4 years you have been on the COW - when guys like jeremy do that many in a week. You are not part of the solution you are part of the problem here. gary adcock Studio37 HD & Film Consultation Post and Production Workflows Inside look at the IoHD Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: de interlace filter sucks !!! by gary adcock on Oct 1, 2008 at 4:42:03 pm [Seth Hancock] "Now, I have not experienced this before so I cannot comment on this EXACT situation. However, I have had experience with capture settings, presets and Kona settings that have altered my footage. " So then why jump in and start bashing JG? either help -if you think you understand better than the posting or stay out, since you do not have knowledge on the subject why fill the existing bandwidth with noise. FYI- I can assure you that JG and I work just as much as you do, and rather than take an elitist attitude about assisting others in our own time here on the Cow, we actually try to help. / end of rant gary adcock Studio37 HD & Film Consultation Post and Production Workflows Inside look at the IoHD Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: de interlace filter sucks !!! by David Roth Weiss on Oct 1, 2008 at 4:49:52 pm [Seth Hancock] " would like to post more but I am extremely busy with work and shooting six days a week. I try to get here when I can and offer advice or ask questions when I can or have the time. If that makes me part of the problem then so be it. Although, I have no idea what you mean by that statement." Seth, your rude comments combined with absolutely zero help only add to the noise and provide no added value whatsoever to this thread, to this forum, or to the Creative Cow. Your contribution in no way advances the dialoge or collective wisdom of the group. It is less than worthless. That certainly qualifies you as "part of the problem," certainly not part of the solution. You'd do best to reserve your limited time to posts that actually achieve something. This channel has more than enough noise. David Roth Weiss Director/Editor David Weiss Productions, Inc. Los Angeles POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™ A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, and Indie Film & Documentary forums. Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: de interlace filter sucks !!! by Jeremy Garchow on Oct 21, 2008 at 5:56:26 pm You have to change both your CLIPS and your timeline to a field dominance of none as I have stated in your other post. Jeremy Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index