Avid and FCP
by Daniel Stone
on
May 19, 2008 at 6:43:34 pm
Hey guys!
Need some honest advice.
I'm a mac guy, been editing in Final Cut Pro since I started. Ever since the release of Final Cut Studio 2 I have been spending more time diagnosing problems and finding workarounds than actually editing. That's what I tell people: "Editing is something I do in my spare time when I'm not busy diagnosing problems". My fellow FCP guys agree with me.
Is an Avid any better or is this aggravation just part of the job, no matter what system you use?
Re: Avid and FCP by Terence Curren on May 19, 2008 at 7:36:06 pm
This has to be a setup.
I'll bite. I have both systems and I experience exactly what you are mentioning with FCP. Avid is far more stable. That comes at the price of flexibility. FCP is far more flexible.
There are plenty of folks who claim they have no problems with FCP. I think they are using the system in exactly the same way day after day and have long since figured out the workarounds for the bugs in the system.
Re: Avid and FCP by Michael Todd on May 19, 2008 at 7:43:27 pm
I know most people will think it's opinion, but I think it's fact. You will get more editing done on an Avid verses FCP. In the early days of DNA hardware on Mac's that wasn't true. Especially in the past year it has been very solid. Avid on PC has been pretty rock solid for several years, minus a few little glitches along the way.
Find a local reseller who is willing to let you use the software for a few days/weeks, if you do like it, make sure you buy from them, it's only fair. Or rent the dongle from them or someone else. Take it for an extended test drive. Make sure you have access to someone that can get you started. The way the timeline works is a little different than FCP. In the end that difference makes you faster.
Check this out:
http://www99.epinions.com/reviews/Avid_SOFTWARE_MEDIA_COMPOSER_7500_20000_0...
Re: Avid and FCP by Dylan Reeve on May 19, 2008 at 8:10:33 pm
I'd say yes, definitely Avid is a lot better at just working.
However, for someone with an FCP background that's probably going to be a false economy at first, as while you might be able to spend more time just editing, there is going to be a fair bit of adjusting to do, which will slow you down (although once you get used to it, I'm certainly you'd be faster).
It will also depend on what you're doing. FCP is probably better suited to some types of work. Personally I feel confident that I can do just about anything I want in Avid, but I've been using it for years and learned a huge amount, and a lot of things may be more intuitive in FCP.
For my money, FCP doesn't come close to Avid in terms of pure efficiency for cutting footage. Just editing. It is also much better tuned for offline/online workflow, with really powerful media management and good batch capture tools. But outside this paradigm things can sometime be a little tricky. While Avid is getting better, FCP still has some advantages in some file-based workflows.
What Avid lacks that FCP offers is format flexibility. With a Decklink HD Extreme card we are able to capture uncompressed HD into our FCP suite, something we can't do in any of our Avid suites (and won't be able to do until we get a Mojo DX at a significantly higher price than the BM card).
Re: Avid and FCP by Daniel Stone on May 20, 2008 at 3:18:23 pm
Thanks guys for the responses. Excellent information and very much along the lines of what I've heard and experienced.
I think I've gotten to the point where I've outgrown Final Cut Studio. There are so many problems that the 'convenience features' are actually not very convenient at all. I need something rock solid and reliable.
Re: Avid and FCP by Scott Thomas on May 20, 2008 at 4:22:53 pm
It doesn't appear that you've asked many questions in the FCP forum. Are you sure you haven't exhausted all avenues of figuring out your problems? I know those with the exact opposite situation as yours.
You should educate yourself about other products, and see what Avid offers. You should also ask your question in the FCP forum.
Re: Avid and FCP by Dylan Reeve on May 20, 2008 at 8:10:34 pm
I don't think I've met anyone with the opposite problem. Most Avid users are perfect happy with the stability and usability of their system (assuming it's a supported configuration etc) - but look to FCP for it's extra features and lower cost-of-entry for HD work (certainly why we dropped cash on an FCP setup).
If your work doesn't call for those things, or if that stuff exists further down the production workflow (in an online for example) then Avid tends to be rock solid.
There are always solutions (same is true of Avid problems) but there often comes a point (like Daniel said in his first post) where it no longer seems worth the time and effort to consistently be working around things when another option may offer a more suitable solution.
That said, you don't have to choose... Avid will run happily on the same system (although Avid does not yet support Leopard) and the cost of entry for Avid has dropped significantly recently, and there's a pretty good second-hand market for Avid Mojo hardware if you want to go that way.
Right now I am using Avid MC 2.8 on our Mac Pro, later today I'll be using FCP 6.0.2 on the same system.
Re: Avid and FCP by Scott Thomas on May 21, 2008 at 6:19:29 am
By opposite, I didn't mean that my contacts were having problems with Avid, just that they weren't having serious issues, keeping them from being productive in FCP.
Perhaps if Daniel had posted some of his issues in the FCP forum, people there could help him out. Also, if there are particular issues in FCP that are obviated by moving to Avid, I think that would be helpful to know. I just thought Daniel was kind of "leading the witness" with his line of questioning. What specific issue(s)?
Re: Avid and FCP by todd obernolte on May 21, 2008 at 1:57:40 pm
Dan,
I am curious as to what "work arounds" your writing about?
To answer your original question
"Is an Avid any better or is this aggravation just part of the job, no matter what system you use?"
I work at a station that has been using Avid for awhile but upon my hiring, purchased a MAC pro and the FCP Studio 2 bundle, and Adobe CS3 premium bundle. I spent sometime using the Avid until the FCP system came in. In short, I found the Avid system to be very cumbersome to use with a lot of "restsrictions" in its work flow, integration with AE and other adobe products I use regularly. I service 2 stations at once as the commercial producer and handle about 20 to 30 account reps everyday. So I don't have time for that "aggravation" your talking about. For me expedition and integration are key to my daily success and that is something that in my experience Avid doesn't deliver on. I have had trouble shooting issues from both systems, however when both are operating without the "aggravation" my money is on FCP.
Re: Avid and FCP by Kevin Monahan on May 21, 2008 at 5:48:06 pm
"Is an Avid any better or is this aggravation just part of the job, no matter what system you use?"
Short answer: Yes
However, you really should learn both systems so you can use the best each system has to offer. Also, so you won't turn down any editing jobs.
I like Avid a lot, especially the Trim Edit function, Dig Tool and Media Management. The big 3, I call 'em. For a feature, I'd probably cut it on Avid. As far as speed, I can cut just as fast, if not faster on FCP. You just have to know all the shortcuts and you can operate FCP 100% from the keyboard (much more deep than Avid shortcuts).
If you come from learning the Avid first, FCP is very liberating and fairly intuitive (though the first two weeks are total HELL). If you try it the other way 'round (learning FCP first), it's going to be much more difficult. Avid has a lot more rules, but if you abide by them and take advantage of them, you can really cruise. Especially with narrative.
Two different tools. Two different workflows. My advice, "Don't Think Avid will work the same way as FCP". Find the FCP way, and just do it that way rather than saying, "But in the Avid we can...". You're wasting your own time. Best thing is to hire one on one training from someone that can edit on both programs.
The problem with FCP is too many formats and too many goofballs setting up FCP the wrong way for the intended format. I've even gotten burned by this. Too many options is the cry of most post-houses. Fortunately, there is now ProRes, so like DNxHD, there is a good format for conforming. This should reduce a lot of problems.
Re: Avid and FCP by Daniel Stone on May 22, 2008 at 1:40:53 am
I didn't post in the FCP forum because I didn't want to start an Avid vs. FCP debate over there. Asking this question over here was really just my own way of seeking final confirmation of what I already believe to be true. And I got some excellent information on the major differences between the two from here.
When I have issues with Final Cut Studio I usually call my network of editing buddies. My FCP buddies give me some awesome workarounds, while my Avid buddies say things like, "Wow, I've never run into that problem before". I want to be one of those "never run into that problem before" guys!
Just to give you an example of today's adventure:
- I open a project this morning only to find out that, for some reason, my file reverted to a version I saved a week ago. Consensus among my FCP buddies: It just does that sometimes.
- Then I try to capture some behind-the-scenes footage from a firewire deck. It's a no-go, so I have to do that 'close FCP, hunt down the presets files, delete them and restart' thing. Problem solved.
- I then spent an hour trying to figure out why FCP was ignoring my audio rubber band adjustments in certain areas of my project. Only certain areas. Workaround: replace all audio fades with transitions.
- I then realize that some text overlays are changing the background brightness as they appear and disappear. Again, only in some places. So we go onto a portable drive and to another machine. Problem 2 solved.
- I then spent 2 hours exporting 4 sections of a timeline via Compressor only to find out that only about half of 2 of the sections exported video. Audio is fine. Workaround: export manually to a self-contained file which I then place onto another timeline and export with Compressor. It worked except...
- Despite the fact that I exported 16:9, my output video is still 4:3. I call a buddy who walks me through a way to "trick" FCP into exporting the way it should. Problem solved except...
- My audio is off when I import into DVD Studio Pro. We go back onto the portable drive and back to the old machine. Audio is fine here on 2 of the 4 clips. So I adjust the audio by hand until it matches. Ugh.
- Then a client comes over to record a scratch VO directly onto a FCP timeline. Audio isn't recognized. I mess around with it for 45 minutes, apologizing repeatedly (I've gotten used to that during an editing session). Other programs are recognizing the audio so I restart FCP... nothing. Restart again... nothing. Restart a third time and bingo... it suddenly works! Settings are the same as they were before. Not sure why it just started, but I'll take it!
And these problems aren't even counting my usual little headaches that I don't have time to fix, like why my FCP 'recent projects' folder clears every time I reboot and why my Soundtrack Pro only closes with a 'Force Quit'. And I can't even begin to understand why sometimes my audio lags when I capture DVCPro via my Kona - the solution to which is uninstalling and reinstalling my Kona drivers. The guy who told me this advised that I should get familiar to this process. Greeeeat. And I should mention that the 'Home' and 'End' buttons don't work in FCP when I'm editing text.
Re: Avid and FCP by Scott Thomas on May 22, 2008 at 5:11:48 am
I didn't say that you should start an FCP Vs. Avid thread. The problems you're having are not normal, and you are doing yourself a disservice by not asking about your issues in the FCP forum.
If your FCP system is in such a condition now that makes it unusable, I would imagine that your Avid system would eventually fall into the same state of disrepair. They are both based on computers and both need preventive maintenance.
Even when I have been forced to rely on editing systems that I've not been keen on, I have always gone out of my way to make sure they perform as best they can.
I have used both FCP and Avid. They are both good editing systems. I have even been a champion of Avid where I work.
Re: Avid and FCP by Dylan Reeve on May 22, 2008 at 11:36:28 am
I dunno, that's been a favourite video of mine for a long time.
Everyone has their own prejudices and ideas, but the advice I've seen in this thread has generally seemed pretty reasonable.
Avid has weaknesses for sure, but certainly the types of errors he's been talking about are things I see more in FCP forums than Avid ones. I think Avid is more powerful as a editing workhorse, while perhaps FCP has a stronger creative bent?
Avid certainly has been designed a lot more rigidly, which is both an advantage and a disadvantage (although once you get past the initial learning curve that swings much more toward the advantage side I think).
Re: Avid and FCP by Daniel Stone on May 22, 2008 at 2:46:30 pm
Scott, that's pretty much what I said in my last post... that I came here to verify what I already believed to be true. I would love to have time to come here every time I have a problem in FCP (which could be several times a day), post and wait for a response that may or may not be helpful - but I just don't.
I simply wanted to reach out beyond my circle of editor friends to see if other pros had the same opinion. And it seems they do. I had dinner with a fellow FCP editor last night. What did we discuss the whole night? Workarounds and crazy issues we've been having. That seems wrong to me.
All 3 of our FCP systems are less than a year old. When we got them I went to my computer guy and said, "Give me the most powerful Macs I can get and put Final Cut Studio 2 on them." Many people say that an occasional reinstall clears up many issues for a while. Again, I don't have time to do a reinstall every 3 months. I don't mean to put down FCP because it's an awesome tool - and I whole heartedly prefer mac over PC (which is why I'm glad there's a mac option to Avid) - I just feel I need something more solid and reliable at this point.
I have a mentor who got me into this business and we constantly debate over tools. Whenever I would say something like, "why would we shoot with the Panavision Genesis ($6k/day) when the SDX-900 ($600/day) looks just like film?" Rather than arguing specs he always says, "Dan, there's a reason why they shoot national commercials on the Genesis and not the SDX". I think that translates into all aspects of production and post - and, throughout the process of maturing in this business, I've come to realize that there's a very good reason Avid is still the choice of pros when it comes to editing movies and national spots.
I feel like I just rambled, but does that make sense?
Re: Avid and FCP by Paul Harb on Jun 3, 2008 at 4:48:13 pm
FINALLY A VOICE OF REASON......YOU HIT IT ON THE HEAD....THIS IS A STROKE JOB AND THIS FORUM EATS THAT STUFF UP......YEAH.....WE USE AVID, IT IS THE BEST, WE ARE SMARTER......blah blah blah.......I use both regularly, they both have pluses and minuses, are we not editors here? Do you guys own stock in Avid or something??? I have learned not to be a slave to ANY editing platform and worry about knowing ALL the tools, and getting better at my CRAFT is my only motive.......I can write you a HUGE list of things that are lame about both Avid and FCP......a HUGE list, and anyone that uses both (really uses them in a professional enviroment, and is honest, knows the same thing.....these are computer programs you guys.....period.....learn your craft.....rant over.....
Re: Avid and FCP by Gabe Cotto on May 23, 2008 at 9:01:28 pm
Mr. Stone,
I'm sorry to hear about your FCP problems. I've personally been editing on a Mac using FCP for five years, and I have recently started using Avid at my new place of employment. And I have to say that my experience with Final Cut Pro has been far more pleasurable then Avid. To me it seems that a majority of "seasoned" editors have grown up using Avid since its "hay-day" and are simply more accustomed to how it works. It's like that old dependable truck in the drive way the old man doesn't want to get rid of. Its out dated, running on old technology, and isn't a comfortable ride. I find Avid to be less flexible, less economical, and more of a "cutting" machine, then a creative tool. Especially if you run it on a PC. I read in an earlier thread that Avid on PC has been rock solid over the past few years. That is simply not true:
-- On a PC Avid has RAM limitations because it cannot run on Microsofts's 64 bit OS.
-- PC's have a well known problem with memory leakage, which can cause your machine to freeze, or starting having seizures if your run multiple programs at once, i.e. Avid, After Effects, or Photo Shop.
--PC's are more prone to virus's, files becoming corrupted at random, and hardware failure in general
I don't know what's going between you and FCP, whether you need to upgrade your Mac, put in more RAM, or do a complete wipe of your hard drive(S) and do a clean install of FCP Studio, but I've never heard of someone having as many frequent problems as you are. I feel for you, no editor likes to hear of one of his peers struggling, but switching to Avid will no solve your problems.
Here is what problems my shop has run into after switching to Avid Media Composer Adrenaline in January of 2008.
--Random media files in projects unlinking from their clips. Avid support was UNABLE to diagnose the problem. This is not a chronic problem, but this has happened on two different machines more then once.
--While working in projects Avid will loose connection with its Dongle and shut-down. Upon reopening the project everything is fine. But its still a time killer.
-- (on PC with 4gb of RAM)If you are rendering a project in AE, or have Photoshop open for an extended period of time, plan on Avid not being able to allocate enough memory to continue to buffer video for playback.
-- Avid MC does not allow you to change project formats, or inter-mix SD, HD, 16x9, or 4x4 video in a timeline. Why is this a problem? Try explaining to client why you have to charge them more money so you can have a FCP editor do something they thought you could do.
-- Shared media: Simply put unless you have enough money to buy Unity ($40,000+), good look being able to move projects around or allow them to be accessible to more then on editor at a time. Without Unity its a long time consuming process.
As my mentor use to tell me, "Sometimes Gabe its not the computer, its the editor." And to this day that's been the best advice I've ever been given. If I had a choice between using FCP and Avid in my shop, I would go with FCP Studio. Both systems have their problems, but when it comes down to what's causing them, its usually the editor who's making innocent mistake, after innocent mistake, that begin to pile up. To me your problems really sound like a maintenance problem with your Mac. If you go Avid, go Avid on a Mac, avoid PC's. But if you really want complete creative control of your projects stick with FCP.
Re: Avid and FCP by Andrew Kimery on May 24, 2008 at 2:03:41 am
I think a couple of the reasons people are seeing a plethora of FCP users looking for help is because the number of FCP users is growing so there are an increasing number of "newbs" all running into the same problems. One of the great things about FCP is that it is inexpensive enough so almost anyone can afford it. One of the bad things about FCP is that it is inexpensive enough so that almost anyone can afford it. "Back in the day" (and I'm not that old, honest) you had to work your way up at a production or post house before you got to play w/the big toys and in the process of working your way up you learned the right way to do things, proper terminology, how to avoid common problems, etc.,. Thats becoming less and less true. While the dropping prices of tech have removed monetary barriers they have also removed a great learning opportunity.
Both systems are capable editors, IMO, but I wouldn't switch to Avid and expect it to be a complete walk in the part. I've been thru things like the infamous "domain copyin" error (on 3 different gigs no less), bin corruption that spread through a multi-editor TV show like a virus, file-shuffling workarounds to keep the OMFI folders from getting too large, an Adrenaline bug that caused duplicate frames to randomly happen when laying back to tape, bins that refused to "unlock" (not a big deal, but just irritating), one gig where the graphic elements never properly translated from offline which meant we had to always cut them into the online by hand (adding about 10 man hours to the online per show), and other random quirks that can sometimes be solved by trashing the user, site, and project settings files (Avid version of FCP preference files).
As always, YMMV, but speaking in generalities I haven't noticed a large difference in operational up time between Avid and FCP systems that are properly maintained and don't have any malfunctioning hardware.
Re: Avid and FCP by Michael Hancock on May 24, 2008 at 2:37:30 am
This has been a great discussion so far, but there are some misconceptions that should be cleared.
[Gabe Cotto]"-- On a PC Avid has RAM limitations because it cannot run on Microsofts's 64 bit OS."
It's a 32-bit app. Even if it ran on a 64-bit Windows OS (which it will in version 3.0) it would have a RAM usage limitation. That's a coding issue with the program, not an OS issue.
[Gabe Cotto]"-- PC's have a well known problem with memory leakage, which can cause your machine to freeze, or starting having seizures if your run multiple programs at once, i.e. Avid, After Effects, or Photo Shop."
Personally, I've never had memory leak issues on a PC unless using Firefox, which is well documented. I've never had the issue with Avid, and haven't had my system "freeze" since Windows 2000.
[Gabe Cotto]"--PC's are more prone to virus's, files becoming corrupted at random, and hardware failure in general"
Viruses, yes, but your editing system shouldn't be online. If it has to be, take the proper precautions. Files becoming corrupted at random? I've had a few corrupt render files, but that's no different than FCP preferences being corrupted. Things happen on computers, but I don't believe PCs anymore than Macs. Hardware failure? Macs and PCs are built with the same hardware. The OS is the only difference. If you're using an e-machine, you'll likely have more failures because it's built with cheap parts. Go with a quality machine and they're all the same inside.
As far as your Avid problems--some of your issues aren't really issues. For example, mixing 16:9 with 4:3--absolutely possible. Mixing SD and HD--absolutely possible. You can't mix framerates, but you can definitely mix HD and SD if they're the same framerate. Check the help files for more on this.
If your Avid is losing track of the dongle you have a bigger issue. I've never seen this happen, ever. You might have a bad USB port. Switch it to another one and see if it happens, or call Avid and request a new dongle.
Sharing media is expensive with an Avid, but you can just consolidate it to external drives, cut away, then email the project back. It will relink without issue. Very, very simple and one reason why so many people use Avid.
Otherwise, if you've only been using Avid since January, give it more time, and don't try to drive it like FCP, because it's a vastly different workflow. You may never like it, but it has it's place and it is hardly outdated or uncomfortable. For many, it's the perfect tool for their workflow.
And the PC versus Mac debate--you can argue the OS till you're blue in the face, but the guts are the same. And the OS is a personal preference, that's it.
To the original poster, you really need to take a test drive on an Avid. Have someone who knows what they're doing show you around the interface, explain the strengths and definitely the weaknesses. There may be things you need in your workflow that Avid doesn't offer, or struggles with. If that's the case, then switching won't help you. But try it out to see how you like it.
Re: Avid and FCP by Gabe Cotto on May 27, 2008 at 3:22:32 pm
I just wanted to clear a couple things up here.
1. If you run the latest version of Avid MC on a PC there are RAM limitations.
Reason: The current version of Avid MC cannot run on 64bit versions of Window. Which means you can only run Avid MC on a 32bit Windows OS that only supports 4gigs of RAM, but only 3.5 is accessible. That can cause problems if your an editor who likes to go between Avid, After Effects, Photoshop, and Illustrator on any given day. All of the these programs are RAM mongers, and cause your PC to freeze or start acting because, because it doesn't have enough memory to complete the tasks your asking it to perform. Which also defeats the purpose of having a PC with dual core or quad core processors.
2.PC's have memory leakage problems.
Reason and Clarification Mac Pro logic boards, processors, and RAM configurations are not the same as PC's. Hardware manufacturers maybe the same in most instances, but the engineering is not the same as a PC. Nay sayers should attempt to build a Mac Pro, or even a PowerPC G5 if they disagree with what I'm saying. The parts are out there, but they are pricey. Window's operating systems do a poor job of managing applications that are RAM extensive, that's why PC users have to reset their machines several times a week. PC users have been reseting their machines for so long and so often, that they assume its normal and not a problem. Switch to a Mac and you'll see what I'm talking about. The latest Mac Pro's can utilize more than 30 gigs of RAM. Although, the average editor would never need to use that much. Since I crossed over from PC to a Mac, I have only had to reset my G5 three times in two and half years.
Thank you for offering suggestions to help my shop's Avid problems. We've already addressed most of them. I simply wanted to state that as far as FCP and Avid goes, both have their problems.
And as far as sharing Avid project files goes....
The process of consolidating and transferring files by using an external drive is extremely time consuming, non-cost effective, and defeats the purpose of having a highspeed network in your shop. FCP project sharing is fast, extremely easy to do, cost effective, and can be down over a network.
Re: Avid and FCP by Dylan Reeve on May 24, 2008 at 11:25:21 am
[Gabe Cotto]"PC's have a well known problem with memory leakage, which can cause your machine to freeze, or starting having seizures if your run multiple programs at once, i.e. Avid, After Effects, or Photo Shop."
There is no such overall problem with Windows or "PC's" - some applications have memory leaks, but there's certainly nothing endemic in the operating system. I very often run Avid and Photoshop together, and After Effects too at times, and very rarely have stability or memory issues (although with some large HD projects there just isn't enough memory for AE which can be very demanding).
[Gabe Cotto]"PC's are more prone to virus's, files becoming corrupted at random, and hardware failure in general"
That is perhaps true, but it's really not hard to avoid. I've not had a virus or trojan on any of my computers for at least 5 or 6 years.
[Gabe Cotto]"Random media files in projects unlinking from their clips. Avid support was UNABLE to diagnose the problem. This is not a chronic problem, but this has happened on two different machines more then once."
In more than 6 years of using Avid constantly and literally thousands of hours of footage, I've never seen anything like that. Even if there were an error like that, Avid robust media management would make it very easy to recover from something like this.
[Gabe Cotto]"While working in projects Avid will loose connection with its Dongle and shut-down. Upon reopening the project everything is fine. But its still a time killer."
Another very weird and definitely atypical error. I've used more that 30 different Avid edit suites and never had any dongle errors (aside from when there wasn't actually a dongle present).
[Gabe Cotto]"(on PC with 4gb of RAM)If you are rendering a project in AE, or have Photoshop open for an extended period of time, plan on Avid not being able to allocate enough memory to continue to buffer video for playback."
AE is a massive memory hog, that's true on Windows and OS X. With a large comp rendering in AE I can barely operate FCP.
[Gabe Cotto]"Avid MC does not allow you to change project formats, or inter-mix SD, HD, 16x9, or 4x4 video in a timeline. Why is this a problem? Try explaining to client why you have to charge them more money so you can have a FCP editor do something they thought you could do."
You might have to enlighten us a little more on this one, because Avid can definitely mix all those things. I've finished HD projects that include 16:9 and 4:3 standard def footage. I've had 4:3 and 16:9 standard definition projects that use HD footage. The only limitation is frame-rate. And while FCP can mix framerates, there seem to be a lot of caveats in doing so (the results can be pretty poor in some cases).
[Gabe Cotto]"Shared media: Simply put unless you have enough money to buy Unity ($40,000+), good look being able to move projects around or allow them to be accessible to more then on editor at a time. Without Unity its a long time consuming process."
There are a number of other options for shared media with Avid (EditShare and MetaLAN string to mind).
In practice we've had very good success with replicated media where media is consolidated to different suites. In one case the ingest process was to capture 1:1 footage on one suite and then make transcode 15:1 versions of that footage onto removable drives. The low-res media was copied to a number of edit suites. All that needed to be shared between the suites was the sequences. It was surprisingly simple really and pretty time-efficient.
[Gabe Cotto]"But if you really want complete creative control of your projects stick with FCP."
The 'creative' angle is one I hear a lot, but I don't really get it. There's very little I can do in FCP that I can't do in Avid really. The real creative aspect of video post is in the actual editing, and really in that case there's not practical difference in terms of what can be achieved.
For the offline/online workflow, or for multiple versioned projects I think Avid's media management alone makes it a better choice.
Re: Avid and FCP by Gabe Cotto on May 27, 2008 at 7:18:51 pm
I see what this has turned into, Avid vs FCP round one-million-and-one. And since alot Avid users run on PC's we have the classic, PC vs Mac battle. These are always fun.
The PC Memory Problem The problem here isn't the hardware, its the operating system. Despite being a memory resource hog, Windows 32 bit operating systems are limited in terms of the sheer amount of resources they can be fed. Couple that with the 4 GB of RAM 32 bit Window operating systems are limited too, and you have a major problem. Sure you can work between Avid, PS, and AE, for a period of time on a PC. But eventually Windows will become over-run with too much data and loose track of files it has loaded into RAM. That means those files won't be removed, and they'll sit there and bog down your computer. That's usually why people end up restarting their machines. Because its memory is bogged down with files that don't need to be processed. The best way to avoid this problem on a PC is to limit the number of applications you run at once. But as every editor knows, that is not productive and slows creativity.
Meanwhile, OSX can handle multiple streams of information without so much as hiccuping, largely because it has less processing going on in the background, and OSX on a Mac Pro isn't limited to just 3.5 GB of usable RAM. On a Mac Pro you can have up to 32 GB of RAM, although I'm sure we can all agree that's a bit much. Obviously HD files take longer to render in AE, but that should not effect your ability to use FCP at the same time. If you have enough RAM installed (I suggest 5 GB min) and your running a multi-core Mac, you should be able to do both without a problem.
Avid vs FCP Round 1,000,001 First I need to say that I was wrong when I said you couldn't mix formats. I was told this by one of my superiors, however he recently explained to me that he "does not want me to mix formats unless a client specifically asks for it." I've only been using Avid a few months, and never tried to mix HD and SD, or 16x9 and 4x3. I've been converting formats depending on what the client wants. I apologize for my ignorance on that issue.
With that said, both FCP and Avid have their issues. The ones I mentioned in my previous posts are some I've had with Avid. Its good to know that these aren't common, and are most likely isolated problems. I'm sure some are caused by user errors, and some are software/hardware related, But needless to say they are still problems unique to Avid and/or PC's. Now as far as Avid goes its been around along time and its showing its years.
The FCP graphical user interface is what makes it more of a creative editing tool, then a "cutting" tool like Avid MC. In Avid it takes one or two more steps to add an effect, trim or extend a clip, and select clips that need to be moved in a timeline then it does in FCP. Which is a lot of unneeded work.
Effects:
In Avid you have to step in and out to apply more then one effect to a clip, plus you have to be in effect mode to do any keyframing. In FCP there is a filter tag on the preview window for the clip that lists all of the effects and its parameters. You don't have to enter a new mode to see what's there, just click on the tab and boom they're there.
Trimming:
Again you have to enter "trim mode" to extend or trim a clip, and make sure only the tracks you want to "trim" are selected. Absolutely pointless. In FCP you can do this right in the timeline without having to do anything but put the arrow on the clip you want to trim or extend, and then click and drag.
Moving Clips:
In Avid if you wan to select a clip and move it, you have to be in segment mode, click the top of the timeline (and no where else), and then drag from left to right only. If you drag from right to left, you enter "trim mode." All of these "rules" need to be followed just to move a clip. In FCP pro its very simple. Click anywhere in the timeline you want with arrow, and drag the direction you want, left, right it doesn't matter.
Those differences make FCP a more intuitive program to use, which really can make editing a lot more efficient and allows more time for creative thinking. Not hitting all of those buttons on your keyboard that you would have using Avid MC really adds up. It can be the difference between a good transition and a great transition.
Final Cut Studio: The Creative Edge Avid MC is an over-priced stand alone cutting software program with effect plug-ins. Final Cut Studio is a seamless editing, motion graphic design, sound mixing/editing, and color correcting package. Apple's Motion has a way to go before its anywhere near as good as After Effects, but its still a powerful program, and works seamlessly with FCP. Avid MC has the Marque Tool. If you have extensive audio mixing or recording to do. FCP Studio has Soundtrack Pro. Avid MC has nothing. A lot of Avid editors don't think of these other applications as part of FCP, because Avid is a stand alone program. But you can't think that way with FCP. Motion, Soundtrack Pro, and Color are all extensions of FCP and help make it a great creative tool. FCP is the foundation, while the other FCPS applications are the building blocks.
Okay, I think I've said my peace. I hope no one is offended by any of this. I know that everyone has their preference. I am obviously still learning the ropes with Avid, and have found it to be an expensive and stubborn program. But it does get the job done, and I am looking forward to getting to know it better.
Re: Avid and FCP by Paul Allman on May 27, 2008 at 4:58:23 pm
These problems are beyond abnormal. Why have you not posted your system specs during any part of this thread? Avoiding the FCP forum has not served you well either, as you might have found answers that go a little further than those coming from your friends. If you are at a facility, get an engineer to look at your system. If not, do it yourself. Your problems have nothing to do with editing styles, or editing software. Your problems are smack in the OS.
Re: Avid and FCP by Steve Clark on May 25, 2008 at 2:32:11 pm
Daniel,
I'm in broadcast & I havn't worked on a totally stable editor since the Sony BVE910. The BVE9100 had problems, the DNE2000's had problems, Avid MC Meridian had problems, Newscutter Adrenaline had lots of problems (but got better). Right now I work with PC NC Adrenaline X2, a NC Adrenaline HD and MC Adrenaline HD on Unity. Guess what, every now & then I still run into problems. But I know this, with Avid, there's never been a job I didn't think I could do, there's never been a job that I thought I could do better or faster on another editor (apart from in real time on a 9100), and I've never lost more than 20 min of work due to a crash, and nothing that was a show stopper. We used MC Adrenaline X5, Airspeed X2 on Unity with Interplay for the F1 GP this year - worked like a dream. File transferred our cut pieces to EVS Xfile for on-air replay. I don't even know if a setup like that is possible with FCP. Just finished work on a job where we recorded 12 camera ISO's on HDCAM. The production company got in a brand new HD FCP system for the project that we heard was dropping frames on capture, a wee bit frustrating for them with all that footage to get in. But to be fair, this comany has turned around some really nice high-end projects on FCP. Neither system is perfect, even with an expensive service contract. Both will bring times of utter frustration. So I think it comes down to what you want to do with it. If you're mainly working on one system in a small group, then until recently, I would have said maybe FCP has too big a cost advantage to overlook. But for really big scalable shared jobs and live production the choice has never been anything other than Avid. I also look at it this way, now that the competition is heating up, which one has the most to loose if they get it wrong.
