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Multigroup in FCPX like you can in Avid?

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Uli KunkelMultigroup in FCPX like you can in Avid?
by on Apr 5, 2013 at 6:57:23 pm

Does anyone know if this is possible? I'm talking about multi-grouping, where you make a sync map on your timeline, subclip all your audio/video with aux timecode and group it all into one big clip. Thanks for your input. I'm new to FCPX.


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Bill DavisRe: Multigroup in FCPX like you can in Avid?
by on Apr 5, 2013 at 7:45:16 pm

The Angle Editor in X has a version of what you seem to be looking for - but like most of X, if you expect it to be a direct transfer of processes that you're accustomed to in another editing app, you're in for a lot of disappointment.

It's really important to learn the way X does things - rather than trying to do the same things you do in another NLE - in X.

At first, the approach might look a bit similar - but underneath things, X is a very different beast.

For example, the Angle Editor essentially lives between the Event Browser and the Timeline as a separate stage workspace. It's "upstream" of the timeline. So if you start behind it, it's harder to understand where it fits.

Too many folks new to X dive into it by trying to build a timeline first - and that's closer to the END of the X editing workflow - not so much near the beginning.

It's about the worst way you can learn about X. Start with clip Import - and concentrate on learning and mastering the Event Browser first - learn about range editing and keywords - if you do that before you start hacking around in the timeline, you'll be WAY ahead of the game of getting how X functions.

Good luck.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Uli KunkelRe: Multigroup in FCPX like you can in Avid?
by on Apr 5, 2013 at 8:21:27 pm

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate your candor.

I think I understand the Event browser. It's sort of like your "Source" window in Avid, only it shows all of your clips, right? The fundamentals here are still the same. Set IN point. Set OUT point. Put clips into timeline. Correct?

I asked about MultiGrouping bc I work in reality TV. We have to have it in our workflow. Big shows can't live without it. So if there is some way to emulate that in FCPX that would be amazing.

I take it from your response that there isn't a way to do that?


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Bill DavisRe: Multigroup in FCPX like you can in Avid?
by on Apr 5, 2013 at 8:49:06 pm

[Uli Kunkel] " think I understand the Event browser. It's sort of like your "Source" window in Avid, only it shows all of your clips, right? The fundamentals here are still the same. Set IN point. Set OUT point. Put clips into timeline. Correct?"

Sorta, but it's also understating the way the Event Browser works. It's really the front end of X's relational database. Yes, you can trim and do other pre-edit work there using multi-tiered tags like Reject and Favorite - but the attached keyword database is pretty powerful. Using it you can "bucket" and cross-connect clips and parts of clips to a customized keyword system that makes search and sort very agile.

Directly from the Event Browser, when you get to the timeline, single keystroke commands can pop whole or partial clips you've "range defined" onto the timeline in various connected states such as inserts, overwrites, connected clips, etc. It's a whole system of clip attachment to the magnetic base of X's storylines. Then in the storyline, you can further attach, compound and connect clips to each other or other assets. It's a system.


[Uli Kunkel] "I asked about MultiGrouping bc I work in reality TV. We have to have it in our workflow. Big shows can't live without it. So if there is some way to emulate that in FCPX that would be amazing.

I take it from your response that there isn't a way to do that?"


The multi-clip process in X is designed to syncronize lots of video takes in time and let the editor "live post switch" between those angles visually.

Not knowing what you need, I'm hesitant to say it will do what you want, but it's pretty flexible right now and developing fast via the X Roles functions.

I did a presentation at the LAFCPUG meeting back in January that went into some of the Multicam attributes built into X. You can watch it on YouTube and that might give you a better idea.

Sorry I can't describe more, but I'm in prep mode for NAB.

Good luck.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Charlie AustinRe: Multigroup in FCPX like you can in Avid?
by on Apr 5, 2013 at 9:47:48 pm

[Uli Kunkel] "I asked about MultiGrouping bc I work in reality TV. We have to have it in our workflow. Big shows can't live without it. So if there is some way to emulate that in FCPX that would be amazing.

I take it from your response that there isn't a way to do that?"


I'll jump in here... Bill knows way more about multicam than i do, but I just watched a "how to make an AVID multigroup for reality TV" tutorial... After I put my exploded head back together, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say. Yes, you absolutely can do this in X, and much more easily. To do what he did in 20 minute tutorial, I'd just highlight all the clips (which have matching TC) and click one button to sync them (using TC) and make a multiclip. Clips with no TC can be synced manually or with markers. Again, not an expert here so don't take my word for it! The Aux Timecode thing I'm not sure about, is that needed for post, or do you need to add it so MC can sync the clips... If it's the latter, it's not needed in X. Be interested to hear if it works...


Oh... here's Bill's thing... but this:

http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/fcp_x_multicam_basics_stone.html

might be more help getting started...








-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Multigroup in FCPX like you can in Avid?
by on Apr 6, 2013 at 12:30:47 am

Is this aux timecode you assign? Or does the tc follow clip tc?

Sorry, I haven't worked on Avid with Multigrouping.

X has a number of ways to group clips, so just making sure all capabilities you need are there.


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Charlie AustinRe: Multigroup in FCPX like you can in Avid?
by on Apr 6, 2013 at 12:42:06 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Is this aux timecode you assign? Or does the tc follow clip tc?

Sorry, I haven't worked on Avid with Multigrouping.

X has a number of ways to group clips, so just making sure all capabilities you need are there."


Not sure of that either... FWIW, to compare and contrast with X, check this avid multigroup tutorial:






-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Andy NeilRe: Multigroup in FCPX like you can in Avid?
by on Apr 6, 2013 at 6:29:18 am

Aux TC in Avid multigrouping is assigned TC as I recall. In reality, most times I've seen it, the various cameras shoot TOD (time of day) TC to get them all in the neighborhood, but none of the cameras are typically jam synched because they need to float around and can't be tethered.

The AE takes the TOD TC and drops the camera angles into a 24 hour timeline, manually synching the angles with each other and the audio (if shot separately). This can be automated somewhat by finding the synch points on each camera (slates or clap slates) and assigning aux TC to the other angles and then creating the multigroup from the aux TC.

Basically, it's an archaic method for synching footage. FCPX can sync the angles without the need for all the extra steps that they take in Avid.

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


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Marcus Samuel-GaskinRe: Multigroup in FCPX like you can in Avid?
by on Apr 6, 2013 at 9:00:14 am

You cannot do what the OP is asking in FCPX. Like Bill alluded to, the Angle viewer shows a tantalising glimpse of what coulda been if FCPX had tracks, but try as you might you cannot access that sync-map/layup in the timeline. It's too much to explain, but I too work in Reality TV everyday, on Avid, and for the life of me I have not been able to repeat the kind of workflow that you can do in Avid or even FCP 7 for reality TV. The way I see that X is built precludes it.

The workflow goes something like this. You have bins with say ALL CAM A tapes shot for that day and their clips. ALL CAM B, ALL CAM C etc.

You would then select all clips in that bin and AUTOSEQUENCE the clips. This lays all the clips with their vision and camera-recorded audio from beginning to end in their correct TOD position.

So you will end up with a sequence at the top of the bin called CAMERA A-ALL, CAMERA B-ALL , CAMERA C-ALL, CAMERA D-ALL etc

You would then do the same with your field-recorded audio: CARD1-ALL, CARD2-ALL, CARD3-ALL, CARD4-ALL etc.
Your sound guy will record the same characters on the same audio tracks for the duration of the shoot/series

You would then create a new sequence ("project" in FCPX Parlance) starting at the earliest TC occurrence of your auto sequenced video or Audio card and cut in the field audio at that point. Do the same for the camera vision-only.

What you end up with is something like this:


Instead of that green camera audio, it would be say, 8, hour-long chunks of field audio. So that's a timeline that's 8 hours long (or more).
CAM E Vision on Track 5
CAM D Vision on Track 4
CAM C Vision on Track 3
CAM B Vision on Track 2
CAM A Vision on Track 1
PETER ---- audio track 1
JANE ----- audio track 2
CANDI---- audio track 3
DAVID---- audio track 4
OLIVIA---- audio track 5
MARTY----audio track 6
HOST1----audio track 7
HOST2----audio track 8

We're just getting started. You now go through each and every clip on the time line and create a grouped-clip version whereby the vision and its content is" grouped to" its audio content. It is then either overwritten over it's timeline original or cut in over it on "Lines" above the main vision content. So PETER&JANE would be one "line" CAND&DAVID would be another, OLIVIA&MARTY would be another, and lastly, HOST1&HOST2 would be another.

Some of it is multi-cam like the cluster of clips you see at the beginning of the screen shot above. Some of it is GV's like the clips you see in succession on V7 then the main chunk might be the couples splitting off and doing their own thing across town somewhere and then converging in a big multi cam session later on with characters crossing over and all sorts going on.

Those 'Lines' are then parcelled off and packaged how the producers and editors want them, then it's job done.

X can kinda/sorta produce a sync-map/layup like the one in the screenshot above, BUT it's locked into the Angle Viewer and you can't do anything with it like you need to in the typical Reality TV workflow I just described.



How do you translate that tantalising sync map in the Angle Viewer to the regular FCPX timeline ?
How do you go through and create group-clips with field audio?

It is said that the audio components added in 10.0.6 might help with this and FCP X's batch renaming and multi cam sync might help with this, but i'm thinking you're gonna need Phil Hodgetts' Sync-n-Link software somewhere in the chain?

Anyway digest these two videos and tell me if FCP X is a goer or a non starter in the world of Reality TV





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David PowellRe: Multigroup in FCPX like you can in Avid?
by on Apr 6, 2013 at 11:11:16 am

I was brainstorming out an idea but looking back at marcus' post, it wasn't the right way to go about it.


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Multigroup in FCPX like you can in Avid?
by on Apr 6, 2013 at 6:47:00 pm

[Marcus Samuel-Gaskin] "You cannot do what the OP is asking in FCPX. Like Bill alluded to, the Angle viewer shows a tantalising glimpse of what coulda been if FCPX had tracks, but try as you might you cannot access that sync-map/layup in the timeline."

In the Avid video, it looks like the method used was a long way around to get what FCPX will do with a multi clip in the Angle Editor

In this sense, FCPX would allow this, and you'd simply scrub the multi-clip (or add it to your Project) with the tod tc.

You wouldn't necessarily need to create a sequence first, nor a bunch of subclips that end up getting deleted anyway.

One problem is that FCPX does not allow match framing back to the original clip from a multi-clip, it must be done from the Angle Editor. So you'd open the Angle editor, find the frame and then match back.

You would also have to figure out what you want to do with audio. You could make a synchronized clip of all audio, and add that clip to an angle and turn on and off the components as you need them. Or attached audio to the appropriate video clips.

Unfortunately, synchronized clips do NOT carry over orig. tc, so you'd sync by audio in the Angle Editor and then the clips would assume what is being used as "Aux TC" in the Avid video which is really just TOD tc in this case.

OP asks if you can sync everything together in FCPX and create a sync map, and then use that as one big clip.

Yes, you could do it and the setup would be fairly easy, but you should know there are a few limitations.


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Charlie AustinRe: Multigroup in FCPX like you can in Avid?
by on Apr 6, 2013 at 7:03:42 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "OP asks if you can sync everything together in FCPX and create a sync map, and then use that as one big clip.

Yes, you could do it and the setup would be fairly easy, but you should know there are a few limitations."


That was my initial thought based on the Avid video as well, but looking at Marcus' post, it seems the "reality" would be somewhat more complicated. Before you even went into the "main" timeline you could easily prep the multicam/full group bits, but when all the groups split off (assuming multiple cameras following each group) , you'd have another set of maybe 3 or 4 Multi clips you'd need as sources. Would secondaries work here? Or can you only switch a multi clip in the primary? It seems as though the syncing and prepping all the pieces would be fairly straight forward, but the assembly would need to be done differently than the avid/7 workflow. This isn't surprising, in fact I suspect it would necessarily be a totally different workflow. I'm just wondering what it would be...

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~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Multigroup in FCPX like you can in Avid?
by on Apr 7, 2013 at 2:18:10 am

[Charlie Austin] "you'd have another set of maybe 3 or 4 Multi clips you'd need as sources. Would secondaries work here? Or can you only switch a multi clip in the primary?"

You can switch a multiclip anywhere.

When you need a subset of the sync map, simply dupe the multiclip in the Event, and delete the Angles you don't need.

Or, use only the angles you do need.

Jeremy


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Marcus Samuel-GaskinRe: Multigroup in FCPX like you can in Avid?
by on Apr 7, 2013 at 1:12:07 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "In the Avid video, it looks like the method used was a long way around to get what FCPX will do with a multi clip in the Angle Editor

In this sense, FCPX would allow this, and you'd simply scrub the multi-clip (or add it to your Project) with the tod tc.

You wouldn't necessarily need to create a sequence first, nor a bunch of subclips that end up getting deleted anyway."


Yeah, that method in the video is a different one to the way we work. we don't create all those sublcips or use aux/tc. Its a red herring as far as I'm concerned.

The way we get the group clips that we then cut over on to 'lines' above is to match-frame the vision for the cameras which creates a mark-in with a TC, and do the same for the audio. We then sort the bin view by mark-in TC so the clips we want are at the bottom of the bin. We select them and group them by In-point. This creates our group clip which we cut in to its 'line' above. Rinse and repeat several hundred times.


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Multigroup in FCPX like you can in Avid?
by on Apr 7, 2013 at 2:20:15 am

[Marcus Samuel-Gaskin] "Rinse and repeat several hundred times."

The favorite part of everyone's day. ;)

Jeremy


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Andy NeilRe: Multigroup in FCPX like you can in Avid?
by on Apr 7, 2013 at 3:46:44 am

[Marcus Samuel-Gaskin] "we don't create all those sublcips or use aux/tc. Its a red herring as far as I'm concerned."

I don't get it. How can you use the Auto Sequence feature without AUX TC? You mentioned that your cameras shoot TOD which is never perfectly synched across multiple cameras. AUX TC helps to ensure that the offset from one camera matches the offset of another when TOD TC is in use.

I guess I feel like I'm missing a step in your workflow somewhere between your sync map and the finished multiclip.

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


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Sean LanderRe: Multigroup in FCPX like you can in Avid?
by on Apr 6, 2013 at 9:31:29 pm

Well I do a lot of work in reality TV.and occasionally use multicolor sequences, but I'm not a huge fan of them as you spend too much time juggling tracks.

I was asked to do a pilot for a new reality show which featured 3 cameras and 10 microphones all in sync.
When I heard this I asked if it could be cut in FCP X as it would be much much faster. And it was. I got the job done in about half the time it would have taken me in FCP 7.

The power comes from the way FCP X handles Camera Angles. It means that it will put all of one camera angle on one track in the multiclip. Something neither FCP 7 or Avid can do.

The powerful feature is the way you can expand any clip and isolate its audio by using clip skimming.
So the sound recordist who was using an 8 track recorder also used one of the cameras to capture the other two mics. In multicast it's super easy to designate which audio tracks are monitored. You can also name each track just for the multiclip. So I named each track with the person's name. Made everything super simple!

Oh and by the way there was NO JAM sync. Cameramen FORGOT. FCP X did all the sync just using its own methods.

The client was super impressed.

R E D N A I L - M E D I A
web: http://www.rednail.com.au
email: rednail@me.com


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Marcus Samuel-GaskinRe: Multigroup in FCPX like you can in Avid?
by on Apr 7, 2013 at 4:23:33 am

[Andy Neil] "I don't get it. How can you use the Auto Sequence feature without AUX TC? You mentioned that your cameras shoot TOD which is never perfectly synched across multiple cameras. AUX TC helps to ensure that the offset from one camera matches the offset of another when TOD TC is in use.

I guess I feel like I'm missing a step in your workflow somewhere between your sync map and the finished multiclip."


For the stuff that's 'on site', Lockit Boxes and a Sound Devices rig are used. Between the two they are rock solid TC wise. Only at the beginning of the production did we have TC issues while they were working out the kinks. Since then never more than a frame out here or there which can be easily adjusted for. Shooting XDCAM.


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Andy NeilRe: Multigroup in FCPX like you can in Avid?
by on Apr 7, 2013 at 6:31:25 am

[Marcus Samuel-Gaskin] "For the stuff that's 'on site', Lockit Boxes and a Sound Devices rig are used"

But for a Lockit Box to be of use, don't the cameras have to be within a certain radius of each other? In your earlier post you were talking about cameras breaking away from the main action to follow something else.

I suppose if you have two at one location and 2 out and about, you just need to worry about the cameras near each other maintaining sync in most cases. But I'm curious about the range of the Lockits if you're shooting on a large set like a mansion where the cameras could be hundreds of feet from each other upstairs or downstairs.

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


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Marcus Samuel-GaskinRe: Multigroup in FCPX like you can in Avid?
by on Apr 7, 2013 at 6:59:53 am

[Andy Neil] "But for a Lockit Box to be of use, don't the cameras have to be within a certain radius of each other? In your earlier post you were talking about cameras breaking away from the main action to follow something else.

I suppose if you have two at one location and 2 out and about, you just need to worry about the cameras near each other maintaining sync in most cases. But I'm curious about the range of the Lockits if you're shooting on a large set like a mansion where the cameras could be hundreds of feet from each other upstairs or downstairs.
"


Not sure about the exact on-site range but it's been certainly good enough for delivering 3 series of the show.
When the teams go out shopping for supplies, they are relying on the internal clock. I'm not in camera dept, but I assume they sync in the morning before they leave. When we get the rushes back and build the layup it's solid. No serious issues at all.

Unfortunately I can't test out FCPX at work as they are all on PC Avids.


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Andreas KielRe: Multigroup in FCPX like you can in Avid?
by on Apr 7, 2013 at 11:32:46 am

[Andy Neil] But for a Lockit Box to be of use, don't the cameras have to be within a certain radius of each other?

No. There can be any distance between them. So for fun you can meet at an airport with some friends, sync all the Lockits with a master one and fly to different places and shoot.
All videos will be in sync perfectly as long the cameras do have a TC in.
If they don't have you have to use LTC, which is also provided by a Lockit as well, on an audio channel.

I don't think that an AUX TC is ancient, it's more actual than ever with FCPX and it's options to sync multiple clips. Unfortunately FCPX doesn't support multiple TC tracks - and no TC handling/modification like FCP.

Here a link to movie how we did 5 years ago. The voice over track was damaged and so I deleted it. Therefore it is a silent movie with some funny mouse movements cause of missing comments.
http://www.spherico.com/filmtools/image_upload_folder/multiSync.mov

Sync options for multiclip handling on the one side are better on the other side are worse. Avid's option to use LTC always had been working fine.
LTC also is a really underestimated thing in these days.

- Andreas

Spherico
http://www.spherico.com/filmtools

"He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby
become a monster. And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will
also gaze into thee." - Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Multigroup in FCPX like you can in Avid?
by on Apr 7, 2013 at 12:49:12 pm

[Andreas Kiel] "No. There can be any distance between them. So for fun you can meet at an airport with some friends, sync all the Lockits with a master one and fly to different places and shoot."

That does sound like fun. Where do we sign up? ;)

[Andreas Kiel] "LTC also is a really underestimated thing in these days."

No kidding.

The role of LTC seems to be defaulting to recorded audio tracks these days.

Even the new version of Pr now has built in audio syncing.

LTC is, by far, more accurate, but plain audio is much more prevalent and convenient, and of course, it's cheaper.

On the latest round of spots that I completed on fcpx, I used FCPX's synchronize clips feature to sync double sound.

It did very well on almost everything. These were golf based spots and on several clips, the clap slate was synced to the hit of the golf ball. Watching it in real time was actually quite funny.

I think all smart slates should sound like a golf swing from now on.

:)


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Andreas KielRe: Multigroup in FCPX like you can in Avid?
by on Apr 7, 2013 at 2:15:44 pm

Jeremy,

When I was much younger than today I always thought this audio based LTC is the worst thing which can be done. Now I'm older, living in a new world of editing having the option to use any crap for recording video -- I love it.

Some other fun experiment I may do:
Hopefully some friends and me will go for boat tour either early or late summer. I did some nice private videos of some of those tours we did 2 years ago. But this year everything will be different. A friend of my friend does have a Quad-Copter. So we will install my GoPro to the copter and attach an iPod shuffle to the audio in of the GoPro. The iPod Shuffle will have a 24h LTC as the only song on it. The iPod has a pretty good constant playback rate - but battery performance is pretty short.
As the iPod also transmits via Bluetooth we could use (not tested yet) a Bluetooth audio receiver connected to the "on board" cam(s). There will be a transmitting delay, but it should be constant on the river, we have tested that on a free non winding road with the GoPro Black.

Anyway -- LTC is cool.
You can configure a Lockit in way that for example only the first 2 seconds of a clip will be covered by this crazy noise then the camera mic will take over. This way any cam with no TC-in but Audio-in can be used together with any cam with TC-in (and/or audio recorder) and they are jam synched. A customer of mine is doing that for several daily soaps.

- Andreas

P.S. If there is anybody who wants to sponsor the above mentioned holiday with the experiment -- let me know ;-)

Spherico
http://www.spherico.com/filmtools

"He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby
become a monster. And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will
also gaze into thee." - Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil


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