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FCX and VIDEO PLAYBACK options...

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Shane RossFCX and VIDEO PLAYBACK options...
by on May 10, 2012 at 1:51:49 am

It started here...

http://forums.adobe.com/thread/999865

With someone noticing that they could only play back the format their sequence was set to. Unlike in Legacy FCP, where we could choose the VIDEO PLAYBACK options we wanted. Well, I found that this was a BMD issue, as it worked for my AJA Kona 3:

http://lfhd.net/2012/05/09/video-out-of-ppro-cs6-switching-monitoring-forma...

I know that no matter what card you use with Avid MC6/Symphony 6, playback is locked to the project settings...PERIOD! No outputting 23.98 as 29.97 at all.

Question is...does FCX 10.0.3 offer this ability?

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Oliver PetersRe: FCX and VIDEO PLAYBACK options...
by on May 10, 2012 at 2:45:07 am

[Shane Ross] "I know that no matter what card you use with Avid MC6/Symphony 6, playback is locked to the project settings...PERIOD! No outputting 23.98 as 29.97 at all. Question is...does FCX 10.0.3 offer this ability?"

The card setting in FCP X's broadcast monitoring is set by the default format setting in the card's preference pane (BMD) or control panel (AJA). That has to be set to match the project setting. If you have projects with mixed settings, you have to exit and relaunch FCP X when going between the projects if you want them to show up properly through the AV output.

And correct, no 23.98 as 29.97. In fact, this never worked correctly in "legacy" either. It was always only the software doing the cadence correction. So in the case of FCP 7 with a Kona or Decklink, FCP 7 would add pulldown on-the-fly in software and present the hardware with a 29.97 video signal. I think only a 23.98 HD downconversion to NTSC actually had hardware-assisted pulldown insertion.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bret WilliamsRe: FCX and VIDEO PLAYBACK options...
by on May 10, 2012 at 5:45:33 am

In FCP 7 and Matrox mxo2 mini, it was matrox that added pulldown to a 23.98 sequence. If you set the matrox to output 720p24 as 1080i it simply adds pulldown (you actually have a couple pulldown options) and spits out that signal. Simeultaneously it will down convert to 29.97i standard def and send that out component, video, or composite. You could also take a 720p60 sequence and output as interlaced 1080i and 29.97i SD at the same time. I don't think Legacy does any pulldown. it's in the settings, but it doesn't do anything. 24p in a 29.97i sequence does not have interlaced pulldown. Just repeats every 4th frame.

The same holds true with the matrox and FCP X. I've just finished 2 24p 5D pieces. I can set the output of the Blackmagic or Mini to 1080i and have the pulldown added or cross convert or down convert. The Black Magic Intensity extreme is a bit less powerful as it can only do one thing at a time like cross convert or down convert. If you want to send out SD you can't send out HD too. You can however, send out anamorphic HD to both the HDMI and Analog at the same time in case you needed to power 2 monitors during a client session. The Extreme doesn't do center cut which the Matrox would do. It was great when I was working on a show to be broadcast center cut on the SD station, and 1080i on the HD station. They took their center cut from the HD feed, so I had to make sure graphics and content all worked as 4:3.

I can't talk for AJA. But between Matrox and BMD, you want BMD for FCP X. From what I can tell, they have one driver that powers everything. It works for CS6, CS5, FCP 7, FCP X, and as far as I know Avid. Their newest driver has issues with static, but the previous version works fine.

I've found that in X, you can place a 24p clip in a 29.97 sequence and interlaced pulldown is correctly added. Everything works as it should. h264 plays back beautifully and there's no need to transcode to proves and quadruple or more the file size. 10.0.4 really turned it into a workable machine. One that doesn't play nice with others, but it's color correction and audio tools definitely surpass FCP 7. It's real time is amazing. Not the fx mind you, but working in real time. You don't have to stop to do pretty much anything. As long as you don't click on a clip in the event, FCP X never stops. You can move audio tracks to the left and right to get them in sync WHILE the clip is playing. Turn clips on and off. Adjust the volume, adjust color correction, apply filters, etc. It's nuts.

The timeline still kinda ticks me off. But like anything else you get used to it. Adding audio tracks, a source window, and the option to turn magnetics off will make it a pretty nice system. Make it play nice with others on networks and via omf, etc. and it's got something.

Sorry to go so off topic, but it all kinda seemed to relate to what happens to 24p in legacy vs X with the output cards installed. In any case, any edit system should be able to play 24 as 30i perfect with any of the 3 major cards.


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Bill DavisRe: FCX and VIDEO PLAYBACK options...
by on May 10, 2012 at 7:11:26 am

[Bret Williams] " I've just finished 2 24p 5D pieces."

Bret,

I'm curious why you're shooting 24p.

Is it going to film? Are you seeking for smaller web files? Are you looking for time effects by mapping 24p to 30i for NTSC playback? Is there something about the film cadence that you like aesthetically?

Just genuinely curious as to why non-film destination producers (and I have no idea if that describes you or not!) keep working at 24p so much when so little content actually gets transferred onto celluloid these days.

Seems odd, but I realize that there are a wide variety of reasons possible from client specifications to personal preferences, and was just interested in which of the many yours might be?

And for anyone else reading this and similarly working in 24p - why was that your choice?

Thanks.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Shane RossRe: FCX and VIDEO PLAYBACK options...
by on May 10, 2012 at 7:17:41 am

[Bill Davis] "Just genuinely curious as to why non-film destination producers (and I have no idea if that describes you or not!) keep working at 24p so much when so little content actually gets transferred onto celluloid these days."

Because we like the way it looks. Cinematic. 30fps...especially interlaced...is "newsy." Or looks like a soap opera. It's fine for sports and news, but really, ANYTHING narrative...24p. Even the docs I work on...24p. Have been for years.

24p either as 24p over 30. Or as we more commonly do, 23.98 from the start. Shoot 23.98, edit 23.98...and often deliver 23.98. A lot of shows I deliver require 23.98 masters. Because of overseas distribution. 23.98 is a universal mastering format. Easily converts to 29.97...and very easily to 25fps.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Oliver PetersRe: FCX and VIDEO PLAYBACK options...
by on May 10, 2012 at 12:15:10 pm

[Bill Davis] "Just genuinely curious as to why non-film destination producers (and I have no idea if that describes you or not!) keep working at 24p so much when so little content actually gets transferred onto celluloid these days."

I'm a big advocate of 24P (actually 23.98 or 23.976fps). Most modern displays - plasma, LCD, projection - are inherently progressive-scan. Depending on how they process interlaced, sometimes it looks OK, sometimes it looks awful, with visible fields and split-field cuts, even when properly posted. So in the modern world, there's little excuse to work with interlaced video. That leaves 24p, 25p (PAL countries), 30p, 50p (PAL countries) or 60p. Due to their inherent lag, most LCD and plasma screens look about the same for 24p or 30p (this wasn't true for CRTs - but those are long dead). 60p can look OK, but again, depending on the display, there may be very little visible benefit. 1080p/60 production isn't very practical, so you then have to work in the spatially lower-resolution 720p/60.

Today, 1080p/23.98 is the highest quality, least taxing format any system can work with. It compresses extremely well and is almost universally convertible to 25fps, DVD, Blu-ray, broadcast (1080i, 720p, NTSC or PAL), etc. And if the need arises, you can go theatrical with it, even if that's only a closed venue, like a corporate meeting, a theme park attraction, etc.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Steve ConnorRe: FCX and VIDEO PLAYBACK options...
by on May 10, 2012 at 12:32:20 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Today, 1080p/23.98 is the highest quality, least taxing format any system can work with. It compresses extremely well and is almost universally convertible to 25fps, DVD, Blu-ray, broadcast (1080i, 720p, NTSC or PAL), etc. And if the need arises, you can go theatrical with it, even if that's only a closed venue, like a corporate meeting, a theme park attraction, etc."

I was very happy to say goodbye to interlace, we've been shooting almost all 25P now for quite some time, however now we have 50/60P to think about.

Steve Connor
"FCPX Professional"
Adrenalin Television


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Oliver PetersRe: FCX and VIDEO PLAYBACK options...
by on May 10, 2012 at 12:40:27 pm

[Steve Connor] "however now we have 50/60P to think about."

I'm in the US and almost every TV spot I cut is 1080p/23.98 shot with anything from a Canon 5D to a RED. My SOP for deliverables is to create a 24p master (plus split-track textless). Then I generate 3 variations for broadcast using After Effects - 1080i/29.97, 720p/59.94 and 525i/29.97 (NTSC). I usually also create a 720p/23.98 5Mbps H264 QuickTime or MP4 for web distribution. Ironically most regional and local TV spot buys are still SD, so often the client's spot looks far better on the web than on TV. I cringe when the agency still asks for some dubs on BetaSP ;-)

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill DavisRe: FCX and VIDEO PLAYBACK options...
by on May 10, 2012 at 8:35:02 pm

Thank you one and all for the feedback.

I came to HD nearly exclusively via spot conversions for HDTV - so my orientation was always interlace domestic broadcast compatibility first and foremost and so I seldom set up a timeline for progressive.

Now that more and more of my work is migrating to the web, this is very useful workflow info.

Much appreciate everyone's sharing.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Bret WilliamsRe: FCX and VIDEO PLAYBACK options...
by on May 10, 2012 at 10:15:46 pm

Interesting thread. The reason we shot 24p? Because halfway into the shoot I asked the camera op "You've got it set to 30p, right?" and he said no, 24p. So, the next shoot had to be 24p for the second video too. :)

That said, 24p is pretty universal and saves bandwidth. It's completely compatible with 60i formats via simple pulldown. Speed it up a tad and it's ready for PAL. Not so true for 25p/i or 30p/i.

The look I can take or leave it. 30p seems just as well. Have you seen the Hobbit 48fps footage? Looks wonderful. But apparently the frame rate didn't jive with 3D viewers on some shots. Too real. Looks great on web in 2D.


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Bill DavisRe: FCX and VIDEO PLAYBACK options...
by on May 10, 2012 at 10:30:47 pm

[Bret Williams] "Interesting thread. The reason we shot 24p? Because halfway into the shoot I asked the camera op "You've got it set to 30p, right?" and he said no, 24p. So, the next shoot had to be 24p for the second video too. :)"

Now THATS a real world response I can totally relate to!

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Shane RossRe: FCX and VIDEO PLAYBACK options...
by on May 12, 2012 at 10:25:14 pm

HOw about this video to help explain.







1080i only shows half the resolution at any given time. Only the even fields...then only the odd. Only PROGRESSIVE formats show full resolution all of the time.

720p is higher resolution than 1080i...but just under 1080p. Plasma TVs, LCD TVs...those are progressive TVs that don't really show interlacing properly. So...we need everything to be shot and displayed progressive.

ABC network does 720p. They are higher resolution than the rest! So there.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Shane RossRe: FCX and VIDEO PLAYBACK options...
by on May 10, 2012 at 7:21:46 am

[Oliver Peters] "In fact, this never worked correctly in "legacy" either."

I beg to differ. Oddly, if you put 23.98 into a 29.97 timeline, FCP would just repeat the 5th frame. BUT...if you chose 29.97 output via VIDEO PLAYBACK...FCP would add the proper pulldown.

[Oliver Peters] "It was always only the software doing the cadence correction."

I know. That's what I said...FCP did it. Now Premiere is doing it. And in both cases, the pulldown is being properly added.

[Oliver Peters] "I think only a 23.98 HD downconversion to NTSC actually had hardware-assisted pulldown insertion."

That is true...that's where the HARDWARE DOWNCONVERSION took place. When we output 23.98 as 29.97...the software did that, and did it well. And I'm sure the drivers for the IO devices added to that...as they were they ones doing the output. I've mastered this way over a hundred times, with no QC kickback due to cadence.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Michael GarberRe: FCX and VIDEO PLAYBACK options...
by on May 11, 2012 at 1:02:05 am

Shane,

This is GREAT news. Thank you. I was trying to figure this out and was the one who originally asked Mike. So, I'm glad that this chain got started. Hate seeing my monitor change frequencies every time I click on a clip.

Question: does this convert video to whatever setting you want in the preview monitor, as well?

That is a huge plus knowing that it works with Premiere. Hoping that same workflow can get going in X, as well. I have a Kona 3 and playback through X is very bad.

Michael Garber
5th Wall - a post production company


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