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General question about how people are logging and organizing footage

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Michael GarberGeneral question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on Apr 30, 2012 at 6:22:09 am

Hi everyone,

I'm just now starting to log a small side project it got me thinking about best logging and organizing practices in X. Wondering what people are settling on and what has been working for others who are working on long form projects.

Currently, I'm finding it best to add favorites and give them specific names - "CU person doing thing with object," etc... Then I'll add the favorites to more general Keywords like "John office BROLL." What I don't like with this is that you have to twirl down to see the names of the favorites. Otherwise it just looks like a bunch of clips with the same name. I wanted to batch rename the clips to the favorite names, but it doesn't seem possible.

I'm finding it a bit cumbersome to log specifics on the favorites and wondering if there is a better way? And also, feels like it's not necessarily the way FCP "wants" you to log.

I'm especially wondering how people are logging and organizing interviews?

Maybe it's just late on Sunday and I'd rather write posts on the Cow than actually log footage. Make sense, right? :D.

Michael Garber
5th Wall - a post production company


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Tony SarafoskiRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on Apr 30, 2012 at 10:04:34 am

[Michael Garber] "What I don't like with this is that you have to twirl down to see the names of the favorites."

Oh I feel your pain Michel. I just completed a project which involved long testimonial interviews, and all I wanted to do was be able to rename my favourites and drop them in a keyword collection. Unfortunately all I got was the original clip name, and had to toggel to see the amended favourite name. You should have heard the colourful words come out of my mouth :-/

what's worst, I though ha... I can get around this, I'll just add that custom name to a note which each clips should hold it's own custom notes. We'll exactly, "each clip" holds notes not each favourite. Try it, add a few favourites to one clip, drop this in a keyword collection and try adding some notes... POW.. right in the kisser. So much for metadata! Sorry I'm just having a blond moment :-)

Actually come to think of it, I recently had another issue with the same project where I'd already built my project, but then needed to change the file names of the clips in the timeline to reflect the clip name in the event. This was possible in 7 but not in X :-( I did manage to manually make changes clip by clip, but let me tell you it wasn't fun. Hopefully Apple see name change as a worthy need and maybe, just maybe add this on a future update :-/



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Tony SarafoskiRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on Apr 30, 2012 at 10:11:27 am

Doh! I'll correct myself, you can add custom notes to favourites and keywords, but you have to toggle the clip to see them. I guess renaming the favourite is easier in this case.

Hey btw, not sure you know this shortcut, but if you select a bunch of clips in a keyword collection, press the right arrow key, which will toggle all clips to show favourites/keywords added.



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Michael GarberRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on Apr 30, 2012 at 10:14:20 am

Hey Tony,

Thanks for your insight. Yes I am aware of the right to untwirl. But you have to select all and do it each time you select a keyword "folder". Grumble.

Michael Garber
5th Wall - a post production company


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Tony SarafoskiRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on Apr 30, 2012 at 10:22:34 am

Hmm... interesting, didn't realise that either... Oh FCPX is so fun at times :-/



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Jeffrey CarterRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on Apr 30, 2012 at 1:41:54 pm

To tag interviews, I've been using markers and naming them (use option + m and you can go straight to typing in info). It's faster because I've found trying to type anything in the notes or other columns to be slow and fiddly. If you use the inspector, as soon as you click in it 'nothing selected' appears. Sometimes it works, sometimes not.

Granted there's no range markers, but it seems a quicker way to add info.


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Michael GarberRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on Apr 30, 2012 at 6:42:40 pm

Thanks, Jeffrey. Much agreed on the limitations. Good to know that I'm not crazy and that the issues I am experiencing seem to be echoed in the responses so far. ;)

Michael Garber
5th Wall - a post production company


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Jeremy GarchowRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on Apr 30, 2012 at 7:32:41 pm

I use favorites for marking ranges.

It used to be that renaming favorites meant that the text wasn't searchable. This has changed in 10.0.4 it seems. The text that you enter for favorites is now searchable. I have 10.0.1 installed on a test machine, and the favorites text is not searchable.

I do agree with the marker statement, it is much easier to start typing right away. With favorites, you can select the favorite in the browser and hit enter and it allow you to change the name. The problem is the favorite isn't selected for you right after you hit f. I have requested this to Apple.

If I know that I want a more descriptive name and don't want to modify the favorite name, I add a marker in that range. What's nice about markers is that the get transferred to the Project. "mm" will also allow you to type in the marker, in case option-m isn't convent enough, but the playhead must be stopped when hitting mm. Option-m will stop the playhead for you.

In short, personally, I use favorites to generically mark ranges (and also hold on to those ranges in case I move on to another clip), and markers to enter descriptive text mostly because those markers will travel with the clips as I edit.

You might find that another way works better, it's just the way I seem to have been doing things.

Jeremy


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Jeremy GarchowRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on Apr 30, 2012 at 7:49:34 pm

I should also add that I sometime clear my favorites from a clip, so I don't put much "weight" in naming them.

Again, it's just my method and not the "only" method, obviously.

Jeremy


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Michael GarberRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on Apr 30, 2012 at 7:53:24 pm

You bring up a good point about favorites. It's very easy to hit U to deselect them. It feels like the software doesn't really "want" you to name them. I always feel uneasy about spending a lot of time adding specific info to favorites since they can easy be deleted and you might not be able to bring them back if you didn't realize you hit U.

Michael Garber
5th Wall - a post production company


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Jeremy GarchowRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on Apr 30, 2012 at 8:36:07 pm

[Michael Garber] "It feels like the software doesn't really "want" you to name them. "

I agree. As I mentioned in earlier versions of the software, you couldn't search the favorite names. I did leave feedback about that, and apparently it changed so I must not have been the only one. It's a good thing as the more you can search the better, I say, as well as flexibility and more than one way of working.

I do use favorites in a more transitory method, but that's just me. I use them like I used in/outs in FCP7, but then again, i have the choice on whether to keep them or not, and of course I can have multiple sets of ins and outs per clip. For interviews/dialogue, I usually keep them. For broll/cutaways, perhaps not.

Also, you cannot overlap favorite ranges, so sometimes clearing them is necessary.

I find that markers give me a better descriptor, and they follow along in the edit as well (timeline index, et al).

Jeremy


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Michael GarberRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on Apr 30, 2012 at 8:44:58 pm

Agreed. I'll look back into using markers. My reason for staying away from them was because of the lack of an out point. But it really does seem like it's the best way to keep it all together. Perhaps a combo of marker and favorite might do the trick for soundbites i know i'm going to use.

Michael Garber
5th Wall - a post production company


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Jeremy GarchowRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on Apr 30, 2012 at 9:21:07 pm

[Michael Garber] "Perhaps a combo of marker and favorite might do the trick for soundbites i know i'm going to use."

That's exactly how I use it. The marker becomes the descriptor, and the favorite is the range I want to chose from. Most of the time, I usually end up cutting down/modifying that range in the timeline, anyway.

Typically, I use keywords for "bucket" type of organization, and use the favorites and markers for more granular separation of the material.

But, I also find that the Event is very flexible and can accommodate all kinds of different organizational methods, especially when you start adding smart collections.

Jeremy


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Bill DavisRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on May 1, 2012 at 2:19:12 am

Sigh.

Back up.

Rethink.

Tags (keywords) are universal, flexible, and as specific or general - as targeted or broad as you wish.

The "interface tags" (favorite, rejected, etc) are just a convenience. "Favorite" could be labeled "blue" and it would have exactly the same weight and function the same as every other keyword.

What does this mean?

It means that if you stop thinking of tags (and markers) as being only what they were in software prior to X - you are very much short circuiting your X learning..

The central reality of X is that nearly all of the work you do in the timeline is just modifiers for the more permanent data that lives in its Events. This is so very unlike Legacy that until you understand it, you're actually not working "in" FCP-X- you're working kinda on top of it.

I can't emphasize this enough.

Until you study how X actually works. How the modules like the Input module, the Event Browesr, Keyword Collections, and the export conventions like the Project Library, and the Share menu - function in concert with their connected Primary storylines - you're going to be stuck trying to use it like it's "Legacy with new stuff."

It is not. My advice is honestly for new X editors to try to spend at least 70% of their time working in places OTHER than the timeline. The timeline is easy. And it's not where the big power of editing in X lives.

It's a suite of deeply integrated new approaches, all working together in a new approach to overall editorial flow.

Look, I'm a 20 year editor who's been working with it nearly every day since day 1. And I'm still discovering interesting new things about the software.

It's not simple. At all. It requires effort and time to understand.

And the worst thing you can do, IMO, is to try to drive it like you used to drive any other NLE..

FWIW.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Tony SarafoskiRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on May 1, 2012 at 2:26:23 am

Bill, what would your approach be in a situation like this?



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Michael GarberRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on May 1, 2012 at 5:37:30 am

Bill, I'd like to echo Tony. What are your methods? I have a fairly decent grasp of X and have been studying it since day 1, as well. That said, I see that that there is not one right way to get the job done. By that same token, if you are not careful, I see potential for a project/show/library/etc... getting horribly messed up.

I think that, with 7, Avid and Premiere, people are using time-tested, proven workflow methods. Those methods are currently in formation with X and I'm just trying to get a general consensus from the pros and those who've had success with it, such as yourself.

Looking forward to you response and thanks!

Michael Garber
5th Wall - a post production company


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Jeremy GarchowRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on May 1, 2012 at 2:47:35 am

[Bill Davis] "The "interface tags" (favorite, rejected, etc) are just a convenience. "Favorite" could be labeled "blue" and it would have exactly the same weight and function the same as every other keyword."

To each their own, but I disagree.

You cannot overlap favorite ranges, you can however overlap keyword ranges.

Also, you can sort individual collections or the entire Event by favorites (or rejected, or unmarked, love the unmarked option).

Favorites and keywords work very differently and should be noted as such. Favorites don't have their own dynamic collections like keywords.

Markers, for me, work very well as I can add metadata searchable text to the marker, and those markers travel with the edit.

I find that the level of detail that I like to put in markers is way too much or specific for a keyword, and favorites are transitory. I can also have multiple markers with information on a clip, and not have multiple keywords of the same clip. It's just the way I work, and perhaps it's not that way for everyone.


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Loren RiskerRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on May 1, 2012 at 12:03:12 am

I rarely use markers, I use keywords for everything. I pretty much just use markers to identify problems or to make notes on the edit.

I've done a few similar short formed docs on bands/musicians recently and I've come down to this workflow:

I make an event titled something similar to a project. That way when I archive I have one event folder and one project folder.

Every clip gets a keyword based on date or location, so that way I have a 4-5 location bins based on when/where I shot that has everything in it.

I find each project has like 3-4 broad keywords that I'll come back to - usually interviews, b-roll, performance, graphics. I think having very few broad categories as a starting point is essential. Sometimes I'll even start editing after I've divided it into just these broad categories. It's very easy to go back and continue to break it down, and if I've started a scratch edit it informs what keywords I'll use for subjects later on.

Then I'll go through the interviews and make a keyword for every answer I'm given called "answer." If a subject is talking to the camera, it's called an answer. I also keyword it with whomever's name is in the shot. If it's an obvious subject I know I'll want a segment on, I'll add that too. I favorite my favorite quotes, but I know in my "answer" bin I'll have everything everyone has said broken down into bites. So for example I might call one "answer" clip - "the knockout san francisco, answer, steve, tony, record release" and I know I'll find it when I look through the location, the answers, the members, or the subject.

Then I go through everything except the stuff I've already identified as b-roll and keyword anything that could also be b-roll, so like fiddling around in between performances, actions happening during interviews, etc.

Then I go through all the b-roll and keyword it as much as I can. I keep in mind the keywords I used for the "answers" and try to use a keyword relevant to any "answer" I also favorited. For example if they talk a lot about a particular show, I make sure to label any b-roll from that location/show.

Then it's all smart collections from there on out. Smart collections are the main reason I use FCPX. When I start editing, there will be some theme that will be an obvious one to work on. So let's say I know I want a segment on "record release," then all my interview answers and b-roll are there in a bin called "record release," and I'll start by only showing favorites. Or even better, if I've already put too much of one person in, I'll just only look for favorite answers from a band member that I haven't used much of yet. So smart collection that combines keyword "answers" "tony" "record release" and show only favorites.

I find if I've keyworded thoroughly, which usually takes 2-3 passes, then the edit goes very quickly. I'll generally take one of my favorite bits I caught, something funny, or a stunning shot, and then it's very easy to work backwards. It's because of the keywording that I actually dread going back to FCP7 for doc editing anymore.


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Michael GarberRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on May 1, 2012 at 4:42:00 pm

Hey Loren,

Thanks for that. Do you have some screen grabs or would you be interested in making a short screen recording tutorial? I'm curious to see your method in action.

Thx!

Michael Garber
5th Wall - a post production company


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Loren RiskerRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on May 2, 2012 at 5:57:35 pm

I can't think of a good way to show the method in screengrabs, so I'll try to do a screen recording session this weekend.

In the meantime, if anyone would like to describe a typical raw footage scenario you encounter I can help you break it down the way I would do it.


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Tony SarafoskiRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on May 3, 2012 at 12:28:58 am

Loren, appreciate you taken the time to run us through this.

I will attempt to replicate your workflow with screen grabs, let me know if I'm heading in the wrong direction.

First you start by giving your Event and Project a similar title.



This is a workflow I also follow, makes using Event Manager X really easy :-)

Next you add keywords to Audio, B-Rolls & Interviews



This is something I also do at the start of every project, and absolutely LOVE how FCPX handles this.

[Loren Risker] "Then I'll go through the interviews and make a keyword for every answer I'm given called "answer." If a subject is talking to the camera, it's called an answer. I also keyword it with whomever's name is in the shot."

I perfectly understand your project is a lot more involved than mine, especially being a documentary edit, where you have multiple interviews & loads of cutaways, however I'll try replicate this with the project I recently worked on, being testimonials.

Let's say the interviewing person is Rick. You start by placing Rick's interview in a Main Keyword Collection called "Interviews". Then you skim through and begin making your selects, and add keywords to break these up.

From what I understand, if the interview is directly at the camera, you add "answer" to the select, and if you want to detail it even further, then you'll add the name of the interviewing person, plus a short description

eg: Answer [Rick} - Hi my name is Rick

So if I've understood you correctly, your Event Library should look something like this?



Now from what I understand, if you come across a sound bit within that select, and you think you might use it as a quick drop shot, then you add a favourite!

[Loren Risker] " I favorite my favorite quotes, but I know in my "answer" bin I'll have everything everyone has said broken down into bites.



Am I on the right track..?



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Loren RiskerRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on May 3, 2012 at 1:15:34 am

Tony, that's nearly exactly how I do it. The one difference is how I tag "answers."

I would add 3 keywords where you made 1 long one. First tag would be answer. Second tag would be speakers name, and third tag would be the subject.

I like having everyone's "answers" in one answer bin, and then use a smart collection to combine answer, speaker, and subject.


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Tony SarafoskiRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on May 3, 2012 at 1:58:35 am

Hmm... ok let me try this again.

You create a folder and call it Interviews, and place "all" interviews in this folder.



You then create a new folder "Interview [Rick]" and drop Rick's "full length" interview in that folder.



Then you skim through Rick's interview and add "answer" to selects.



You then create a new folder (calling it bites) and go through a 3rd pass, which at this stage you give these a more descriptive keyword.



Am I understand this right?



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Tony SarafoskiRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on May 3, 2012 at 2:14:44 am

Loren,

Here is another screen grab with now a second interview added.



The problem I find is, let's say your working on a very long form documentary, and you now want to search for the words "what I love about AMEX", because a few of the people interviewed answered this perticular question.

From what I can see you can't...?

or am I missing something...?



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Loren RiskerRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on May 3, 2012 at 5:59:01 pm

Tony,

That's still not quite how I approach it.

I see no need to have a tag called "interview rick."

I would only have 2 tags, interview, rick.

That way in the Rick bin will be EVERYTHING related to Rick, not just interviews. And in the interviews there will be everything that's an interview, not just Rick interviews.

I'm including a screengrab. Notice this combo of Keyword collections and Smart Keyword collections. Now if I'm looking for a shot of Zach performing, I can make a smart keyword collection of Zach, b-roll, live. And if I want to narrow it down to b-roll from just one show, I can add 042412-NaturalChild-ElRrio. In the screengrab I have 2 smart collections so far, Seth Answers and Wes B-Roll.



So the idea is I do all the general broad sorting at the beginning, then narrow it down with smart collections as I'm editing and realize I want something specific.

Note that I'm not done sorting this project, but when I do, there will be subject keywords as well. So I'll probably have one for each venue ("Blue Lagoon," "El Rio," "Sugar Mountain"). I'll also have ones called "New album," "Touring," "Nashville."

Once I've gone through everything 2-3 times, and my keywording is thorough and as general as possible, I'll be able to do more specific smart collections. It won't take into account what they say, but as long as my keywording of subjects match up it will be easy enough to find say Zach talking about touring on the first day.

Does that make sense?


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Michael GarberRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on May 4, 2012 at 6:52:09 am

Loren-

when you keyword the answers, do you include the interviewer's question in the first range pass?

And then you would further refine with more keywords - general summations of the answer/topic the interviewee is discussing, correct?

Michael Garber
5th Wall - a post production company


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Jeremy GarchowRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on May 4, 2012 at 3:13:49 pm

Hi, Michael.

I know that you want Loren's opinion, but I will interject my own.

If you want to add searchable words to your clips like "this is what Rick says right here", I think markers are perfectly suited of this.

This way you don't have to clutter up the Event with more keywords just for one clip.

I, personally, like to keep keywords fairly general and save markers for more detailed text. The keywords (and subsequent smart collections) can organize larger groups together and the markers describe the clip in more detail.

Again, just my personal opinion.

Jeremy


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Michael GarberRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on May 4, 2012 at 5:47:17 pm

Hey Jeremy,

Agreed that markers are a good way log specific items on clips. It's just that, with interviews, I prefer to have ranges, so I can quickly add an entire bite to a timeline. In that scenario, my only choices are favorites or adding more keywords.

Michael Garber
5th Wall - a post production company


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Jeremy GarchowRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on May 4, 2012 at 6:07:40 pm

[Michael Garber] "Agreed that markers are a good way log specific items on clips. It's just that, with interviews, I prefer to have ranges, so I can quickly add an entire bite to a timeline. In that scenario, my only choices are favorites or adding more keywords"

You can make the range with a favorite and name it. Or you can simply mark the range with a favorite and stick a marker on it.

Jeremy


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Michael GarberRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on May 4, 2012 at 6:51:39 pm

Hey Jeremy. Thanks, and I was aware of that. Just wondering if Loren leaves the interviewer's question in when he keywords "answer" so that he can hear the original question - and then favorites or adds additional keywords to the answers.

I've been doing some tests with footage I shot the other day and I'll be doing some off-the-cuff tutorials that I'll put on Vimeo. Are you or anyone else aware of any tutorials online that go into the real nitty-gritty details of logging and keywords? I've seen some on Macprovideo and all the other major sites. But there doesn't seem to be anyone giving insight into how to log footage for, say, a cooking show as opposed to a documentary.

Michael Garber
5th Wall - a post production company


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Jeremy GarchowRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on May 4, 2012 at 7:16:00 pm

[Michael Garber] " But there doesn't seem to be anyone giving insight into how to log footage for, say, a cooking show as opposed to a documentary."

I haven't seen one.

In all honesty, since the Event structure is so diverse and open to interpretation, I'm not sure if there's any one way to do it. With bins, you had to put things in certain places. With keywords/data, you can sort it any which way you want.

I would say however you can best remember everything is how you should do it.

If lots of separate keyword ranges makes the most sense, then by all means, make a bunch of them.

It would also depend on your content. If you have a bunch of interviews and everyone was asked the same questions relatively, then you can sort the interviews by question.

For docs you could do it by location, or person, or BOTH. There's so many different ways it could go


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Tony SarafoskiRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on May 5, 2012 at 3:17:59 am

[Michael Garber] "I've been doing some tests with footage I shot the other day and I'll be doing some off-the-cuff tutorials that I'll put on Vimeo."

Michael, that's something I've been investigating as well, and had plans in recording different workflow scenarios. Would you be interested in iChating and shearing ideas and information?



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Michael GarberRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on May 5, 2012 at 4:38:06 am

...and together, we shall rule the galaxy... er, yes, sounds like a great idea!

i'm PM you with my contact info.

Michael Garber
5th Wall - a post production company


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Loren RiskerRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on May 4, 2012 at 8:54:01 pm

[Michael Garber] "when you keyword the answers, do you include the interviewer's question in the first range pass?"

I don't include the questions, but I could see how it would be helpful. The reason I don't is I never put the interviewer's questions in the edit. I personally don't care for a behind the camera voice. So the quote needs to stand on its own, and therefore I shouldn't need the context.

Also, for my style I never have a person talking for more than 30 seconds without chopping it up. So when I am finding "answers" I break up what they're talking wherever there's an opportunity to separate it.

This is another reason I like FCPX. I found FCP7 was too rigid once you made subclips. With keywords, you can always get back the media from outside of the range so it encourages tighter sorting.

[Michael Garber] "And then you would further refine with more keywords - general summations of the answer/topic the interviewee is discussing, correct?"

Exactly. I try to keep these subjects short. After reading this thread however, I'm going to experiment more with markers to put in more detailed descriptions. However, I find with the amount of footage I get and the amount of time I spend on the edit I can hold those details in my memory and it might not be worth it to me to get that detailed.


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Michael GarberRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on May 5, 2012 at 1:45:45 am

Thanks, Loren. I have been using a combo of your system as well as Jeremy's.

1st pass general keywording - names, location, etc...
2nd pass on interviews - marker for question, additional keywords for "answer". Add notes on the keyword for answer with subject's response.

Here's where I've come across a major hitch. Once you do all this, including adding a note for the response to the keyword, IF you add another keyword to further refine the answer, the detailed log note is ERASED.

This brings me back to my general frustration with FCPX (ok I could post this in the debate forum, but I'm not.) Every time I try to go through and give it another chance, I find all these niggling bugs and lacking features. I really feel like all of us on this forum are bug checking for Apple. Where's the check or reimbursement for our time? Grumble grumble.

Just in the past 2 hours of logging, I've sent Apple 5 consecutive feedback messages today with other niggling problems. I'm talking really specific workflow issues. Stuff that's just odd or strange.

I watched an interview with Michael Wohl the other day where he explained how much detail went into FCP. 4 years of development. And they were really able to program for the minutia of editing. I really feel like FCPX was, by comparison, slapped together. There is just sooo much missing. It's like they didn't fully think through a lot of the steps - or issues weren't fully troubleshooted in-house before features were released.

In this sense, I feel very limited by X. I want to drive the software at full throttle. But it just won't let me most of the time. Sorry for the rant - and now back to your regularly scheduled FCPX Techniques forum infotainment. ;)

Michael Garber
5th Wall - a post production company


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Jeremy GarchowRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on May 5, 2012 at 1:59:05 am

I would suggest sending feedback to Apple.

There are bugs.

So you are adding a keyword to a keyword and the notes erase?


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Michael GarberRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on May 5, 2012 at 2:02:31 am

In the last post, I said that I'm sending them feedback constantly. Been doing it since it came out last year. And have sent them 5 bug and feature requests just today.

Yes, notes go away if you add a keyword to a keyword.

Michael Garber
5th Wall - a post production company


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Tony SarafoskiRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on May 5, 2012 at 3:09:45 am

and I second that Jeremy.... very annoying indeed..!



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Tony SarafoskiRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on May 5, 2012 at 2:45:05 am

[Loren Risker] "That way in the Rick bin will be EVERYTHING related to Rick, not just interviews. And in the interviews there will be everything that's an interview, not just Rick interviews."

Ok now I understand Loren.

With my project (being the testimonials), each interview was a separate project.



This means B-Rolls from Alex, Joe or Michael are not mixed or used in Rick's project, therefore I separated Rick's material, only in a Rick folder.

In other words Rick's folder will only hold the 30min interview (which is uncut), The Answers, Bites, B-rolls, Music, and Graphics. Hope that make sense...?

I do however understand your workflow, especially the use of smart keyword collections, which is a great tool that I've been avoiding :-( and not sure why either..!

I guess what Michael and I would like to be able to do (which is working against the way Apple or Bill advise), is to be able to make smaller clips from a "main clip".

Let me try simplify this. Rather than using keywords or favorites to break up a 30min interview into smaller selects, I instead would like to be able to separate the 30min interview into "clips". This in return allows me to add custom notes, and also gives me the ability to search within that keyword.

I understand the only way to achieve this right now is to tag selects as favourites, then add your custom notes, which in return become searchable. However as Michael has mentioned, the problem is every time you click on a new keyword in the Event Library, then click back again, you need to re-toggle down to see your favorites, in other words it just doesn't stick..!

I guess favourites is the new "create new clip" feature, I would just like to be given more flexibility as per my screen grab below.



The other thing I'd like to add to this is, not every job I work on gives me the time to detail my material in the Event Browser prior building the story on the timeline, which means I have to be able to quickly drop clips and trim to build a story in a linear fashion. Though I've been able to do that now, and even faster in X than I was able to in 7, I still feel there are only a "minor" few missing features that I hope be brought back in a future version.

Having said that, keyword collection is a MASSIVE plus and could never see myself cutting the way I did 7.



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Bill DavisRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on May 2, 2012 at 5:34:49 am

[Loren Risker] "I find if I've keyworded thoroughly, which usually takes 2-3 passes, then the edit goes very quickly. I'll generally take one of my favorite bits I caught, something funny, or a stunning shot, and then it's very easy to work backwards. It's because of the keywording that I actually dread going back to FCP7 for doc editing anymore."

Well done Loren.

This exposes the central theme I've been talking about.

Loren didn't approach key wording as if it was just an extension of "markers." He spent time thinking about what the database in X might do - and developed a strategy for using that flexibility to serve his particular style of working.

I'll do things a bit differently - but certainly no better.

That's the point. A database - any database - is an incredibly flexible tool. It's as powerful as you wish to make it. You can make it behave like "power markers" if you like. Or you can ignore it and bemoan the fact that "favorites" don't work the way you might, at first blush think they should OR - you can explore what this system does allow you to do and maybe surprise yourself with capabilities that the old software simply didn't feature.

To me "Favorite" is actually "initial temporary tag." It's my tool of "first sort" to narrow a range down for each pass. Then I add the tag I actually WANT for that keyword collection, remove "Favorite" and free it up to use for the next temporary sort.

I don't view "favorite" it as a TAG in itself. For me it's more a "sorter" to mark out the group I'm interested in at that moment - just until I can change that groups tag to something more meaningful.

And the point of working tags in the Event Browser before you move to the timeline is that TOTALLY unlike "markers" in Legacy - tags set in the EB stick to the assets in the EB and are therefore available for ALL projects, not just your current timeline.

It's another good example of why, if you try to use X like Legacy and go right to the timeline for all your editing, you're missing a chance to build a persistent, powerful library of edit decisions in the EB that grows in usefulness the more work you do in the software over time.

Again, nice description, Loren. I can see you're truly understanding the fundamentals of how the database in X can enable some useful new thinking about clips in the more "connected" state they can reside in inside the X interface.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Michael GarberRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on May 3, 2012 at 5:30:35 am

Say I've created my interview keywords and favorites. I'm watching an interview select and for whatever reason, I want to go back to the original full clip. Shift-F doesn't do it. Is there another way to go back up a "level?"

Also, is there an easy way to increase the range length of the keyword in a clip without having to go back to the original clip?

Michael Garber
5th Wall - a post production company


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Tony SarafoskiRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on May 3, 2012 at 6:54:41 am

[Michael Garber] "I'm watching an interview select and for whatever reason, I want to go back to the original full clip"

Michael once you add your selects to a timeline, there is no reason why you can't extend or trim the in/out points.

Unless your trying to do this in the browser instead?



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Jeremy GarchowRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on May 3, 2012 at 4:52:11 pm

[Michael Garber] "Say I've created my interview keywords and favorites. I'm watching an interview select and for whatever reason, I want to go back to the original full clip. Shift-F doesn't do it. Is there another way to go back up a "level?""

Click on the Event itself, not just the keyword collection. When you click on the event, the keyword range will be selected.

From the timeline, if you shift-f, it take you back to the clip w/keyword on it in the event (basically, the whole clip) and not the range based keyword collection.

Make sense?

[Michael Garber] "Also, is there an easy way to increase the range length of the keyword in a clip without having to go back to the original clip?"

Not within the Event, but on the timeline, the range can extend beyond you have marked it the Event.


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Richard JacanaRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on Apr 25, 2013 at 5:14:24 am

Did any of you guys put together a little video of what's being talked about? Love to see an actual video of someone logging footage and adding keywords ranges and favorites etc. Still a little confused.


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Michael GarberRe: General question about how people are logging and organizing footage
by on Apr 25, 2013 at 5:05:19 pm

There are tons of videos out there. I'm writing an article about my methods which will hopefully be up in the next week or two.

I think you'll find that it's different for various kinds of productions and we're all in a bit of a trial and error mode. What I'm finding similar between everyones methods is that the process can be done in 3-4 stages. This does not cover syncing dailies, which should be done first and would involve some additional metadata tagging.

1. Start with general keywords (b-roll, interview, name, location)
2. Add roles to audio, if necessary. If you need to output to Protools or a multitrack QT, then I find it's best to get this out of the way before you start complex logging.
3. Go back for a second, more complex keyword pass. (question, answer, topics, frame size if working in 4k, etc...) This where it depends on the type of production you're working on, 1080, 2k, 4k, whatever-k...
4. Then go back and favorite clips in your keyword collections. This way you can filter out all the stuff you don't want to see.

I'm sure there are more things (or less things) other people are doing between passes, but it seems this is generally the way it's going.

Michael Garber
5th Wall - a post production company
Blog: GARBERSHOP


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