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Apple is at NAB!!!

COW Forums : Apple FCPX or Not: The Debate

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Lance BachelderApple is at NAB!!!
by on Apr 11, 2013 at 4:09:38 am

Apple actually breaking their no-tradeshow EVER AGAIN rule and have a single, solitary iMac pod inside the Sony booth! It's true, I actually met both Apple FCPX team members and they even talked to me! They're there to show native Sony XAVC support inside FCPX in 4K and it looks great and plays like butter. They were both actually very receptive to input (though forced to be somewhere between the Queens Guard and the CIA) but very open and know there's still a lot of work to be done and very aware of critical features on the radar.

The sad thing was, there was more interest in Lightworks at NAB than FCPX - because I may be the only person who knew they were there!

For you Premiere lovers it's a sight to behold - whenever Premiere is up on the big screen in the Adobe theater the hundreds of seats are packed and there literally hundreds more standing and watching - every time. Reminds me of the Apple booth many years ago...

I have to admit, after meeting some of the managers at Adobe - they really do care and are really trying hard to make the entire suite great.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Craig ShieldsRe: Apple is at NAB!!!
by on Apr 11, 2013 at 5:23:48 am

Yep, that's what it used to be like at an Apple booth. I remember at my first NAB I had no plan. I just showed up and before I knew it, I had wasted my whole 1st day watching all the Apple demos.



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Oliver PetersRe: Apple is at NAB!!!
by on Apr 11, 2013 at 6:24:55 am

That hallowed booth position has long been replaced by Blackmagic Design.

And Lance is correct. Spoke to the same folks myself, however, they are wearing Sony badges, as are other third party demo folks.

FWIW - there are plenty of instances of FCP X through the show in various booths. Another interesting thing to note. There are various press folks covering the show in video. Just about everyone that I've seen in the press room has been cutting their pieces on FCP X on MBPs.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Nicholas KleczewskiRe: Apple is at NAB!!!
by on Apr 12, 2013 at 3:04:56 pm

Yeah, people were a little over doing it with the whole FCPX is no where to be found thing. It was all over the place. Shared Storage company, DAM software, ingest, filters, etc. just not actually Apple.

But he is absolutely right about Adobe. They were so passionate about what they are doing it was hard to not be impressed. I have an entire company to turn over to a new system soon, locations in NYC, LA, Vegas, Richmond, VA Beach, and Adobe just made the decision more difficult for me!

Director, Editor, Colorist
http://www.trsociety.com


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Greg AndonianRe: Apple is at NAB!!!
by on Apr 11, 2013 at 6:23:33 am

[Lance Bachelder] I actually met both Apple FCPX team members

Wow, you met BOTH members? I have a little more respect for FCPX now- I mean, if there's only two guys working on that thing, what they've done is pretty impressive... ;)

[Lance Bachelder] For you Premiere lovers it's a sight to behold - whenever Premiere is up on the big screen in the Adobe theater the hundreds of seats are packed and there literally hundreds more standing and watching - every time.

That's really cool. Sounds like this release is really going to be amazing...

______________________________________________
"Up until here, we still have enough track to stop the locomotive before it plunges into the ravine... But after this windmill it's the future or bust."


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Lance BachelderRe: Apple is at NAB!!!
by on Apr 11, 2013 at 6:52:52 am

Yeah I have a few hours off tomorrow before we close :( and plan to hit the Adobe demos and Avid.

Oliver is right though - FCPX is actually alive and well in many booths throughout the show - we have it running on several pods in the AJA booth too - along with the new Adobe suite of course. But generally wherever you see some sort of Thunderbolt device running on a Mac FCPX is there...

As far as Thunderbolt goes though - amazing that this year HP and others are really selling Thunderbolt hard - but on PC's - not Macs.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Eric SantiagoRe: Apple is at NAB!!!
by on Apr 11, 2013 at 10:47:21 am

I took in most of the courses at NAB and found a few things that irked me.
Even though the speakers and trainers were great people, I found Adobe's marketing machine a bit too heavy during the courses.
What was laid out as informative course in some specific fashion turned out to be a demo of mostly their new software that students in the class found interesting but felt (after talking to most of them) that sitting there watching them show it off turned into a small room demo.
All the Adobe classes were full but just as much as the popular FCPX ones with the likes of Mr. Greenberg, Adam and Steve, etc..
The only sad site was a few of the Avid classes seemed dead and listless.
The information given was good and helpful but my feeling was that MC at its present state is dying interest with the new users.
I got to see the new version of everything and enjoyed learning about them.
My favourite has to be Resolve but Im biased since I love using that app.
Back to Apple.
They were everywhere as far as their desktop offerings and almost 95% of the students were holding some type of Apple product during classes.
Please this was my experience at this years NAB.
I took in a lot since I got here last Friday.
Slept on average of 3 hours and on site from 8am till 6pm.
As usual the SuperMeet was a blast :)


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Brett ShermanRe: Apple is at NAB!!!
by on Apr 11, 2013 at 1:32:32 pm

Interesting. I'm beginning to wonder if Premiere is more of a threat to Avid than FCP X. I can see Premiere taking more and more of the high end market. And regardless of the negative opinions of FCP X that people like to espouse on this board, I think there will always be a place for FCP X at the low to mid-level.

I also think eventually there will be a place at the high end once project sharing is improved in FCP X. But it may take awhile for FCP X to gain footholds there as it has been too slow in coming.



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Steve ConnorRe: Apple is at NAB!!!
by on Apr 11, 2013 at 1:34:54 pm

[Brett Sherman] "Interesting. I'm beginning to wonder if Premiere is more of a threat to Avid than FCP X."

I would imagine it is, add to that a second front from Lightworks and Avid are going to have a battle on their hands in the coming months and years.

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Craig SeemanRe: Apple is at NAB!!!
by on Apr 11, 2013 at 2:07:16 pm

[Brett Sherman] "Interesting. I'm beginning to wonder if Premiere is more of a threat to Avid than FCP X. "

Toss Lighworks on that list as well. An NLE (free/low cost) with some Hollywood cred by a company that also has a high end storage product.



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Lance BachelderRe: Apple is at NAB!!!
by on Apr 11, 2013 at 2:24:45 pm

Totally agree - I got a demo of the OSX version and it's really looking solid - total parity across three different operating systems along with insanely low cost could be formidable in the near future.

One blogging team that stopped by AJA booth to shoot an interview mentioned that in all their meetings the feeling was that high-end pro's were staying Avid, indie studios were going Premiere but the web producers and one-man-bands were going FCPX. The debate rages on...

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Oliver PetersRe: Apple is at NAB!!!
by on Apr 11, 2013 at 3:24:54 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "that high-end pro's were staying Avid, indie studios were going Premiere but the web producers and one-man-bands were going FCPX."

I would agree. Right now, there is still nothing that competes with ISIS/Interplay/MC as a single-sourced, supported, enterprise-grade solution. EditShare and GV are the next closest.

Avid intro'ed some bundles that start this package at under $50K (with 3 MC licenses), which is in the range for even smaller facilities or stations. While still a premium, it's no longer 2x or 3x of what a similar solution of competing "parts" would be, when cobbled together by a reseller. Long-in-the-tooth or not, MC as an editor is still the most robust (proven) solution, given almost any type of production. ISIS/Interplay/MC is the "you won't get fired for buying IBM" answer.

Remember that now for $2500, you get Symphony, BCC filters, AvidFX (Boris RED), Avid DVD and Squeeze. This cost is what MC alone was last month (with the last 3 apps). But I don't see it as the app to attract hords of new users, which is their challenge. However, traditional film schools are still installing and teaching MC.

Adobe Premiere Pro "next" is more nimble, but the appeal is still as the FCP7-replacement and the NLE to use for heavy AE users. Adobe Anywhere is a complete unknown and ultimately will land you in the Avid-enterprise range when it comes to cost. It's a solution for large shops and broadcasters, just like ISIS/Interplay.

This leaves FCP X as the light, flawed, fast editor that hopefully will grow. In my travels, I heard plenty of developers - especially for plug-ins - complain about X and its market. Despite people on this forum telling me that users will still buy expensive plug-ins, I am hearing quite the opposite. X users who pay $299 for the host app, simply are not investing in large numbers in plug-in packages that cost a lot more than the host. So a plug-in like Baselight Editions at $1K isn't going to get many X users, which in turn means an X version might never make it out of the lab. And the architecture hampers developers like Red Giant and GenArts, as well.

Look towards more synergy with FCP X and Resolve 10. In fact, Resolve uses the Open FX API, so you will likely see some interesting development of plug-ins for Resolve. Offline in FCP X and grade/conform/finish in Resolve 10. That's the theory anyway.

The wild cards are Autodesk Smoke and Lightworks Mac. I think they appeal to vastly different markets, but each company is trying to be very responsive to potential users. So it could be a very fun time ahead (insert Chinese curse here).

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Joseph W. BourkeRe: Apple is at NAB!!!
by on Apr 11, 2013 at 3:43:16 pm

The one thing missing from this discussion that I think could be important is the appearance of Adobe Anywhere. This brings to the market a way to compete with the AVID Interplay/ISIS/MC systems that became common in many of the broadcast facilities, due to the need to share projects and footage between News, Promotions, and often Production, which at our facility also produced a daily News magazine format show that relied on footage from all over our departments, as well as from our sister stations in Boston, Washington, DC, and a number of other markets (our parent company owned 28 stations).

The development of Adobe Anywhere certainly gives one pause for thought. If a corporate engineering department could make all the content from all 28 stations available at any given time, it would essentially make the AVID local file sharing systems obsolete. It appears that this is what CNN is doing, based on the video they've chosen to participate in:

http://tv.adobe.com/watch/adobe-at-nab-2013/adobe-anywhere-collaborate-with...

The other interesting thing is that the broadcast station I worked with when we had the AVID Interplay/ISIS storage and sharing system was so rife with problems, crashes, re-linking bugs, and other incidents requiring regular visits from Tewksbury - thank God they were just down the road, that our parent company decided to migrate from AVID to Adobe - the AVID workstations were relegated to nothing more than tape capture stations, and the real work was done with Adobe products. Adobe Anywhere puts an interesting light on some new possibilities. I'm glad I'm no longer there to work out the kinks...

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Erik LindahlRe: Apple is at NAB!!!
by on Apr 11, 2013 at 4:09:43 pm

Adobe Anywhere does feel very specialized. Cool product for some but really not for "most" if I dare say it that way.

In a small 2-4 people workgroup sitting locally (which I think could be the case for a lot of smaller companies) a shared solution in-app would be far more valid. Little - if anything - has happened on that front, has it?


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Joseph W. BourkeRe: Apple is at NAB!!!
by on Apr 11, 2013 at 4:29:46 pm

Erik -

I don't see any practical applications for Adobe Anywhere in the small shop, say a post facility with 6 edit stations. That said, it would be very cool if this turns out to be a scalable technology which will make that a reality. That said, I've seen some features in the new PPro which makes file sharing in the small shop situation way better than it has been to this point.

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Craig SeemanRe: Apple is at NAB!!!
by on Apr 11, 2013 at 3:55:22 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Despite people on this forum telling me that users will still buy expensive plug-ins, I am hearing quite the opposite. X users who pay $299 for the host app, simply are not investing in large numbers in plug-in packages that cost a lot more than the host. So a plug-in like Baselight Editions at $1K isn't going to get many X users, which in turn means an X version might never make it out of the lab. And the architecture hampers developers like Red Giant and GenArts, as well."

It may not be the price of the NLE so much as the market it's currently serving. If FCPX's main attraction is speed then such users may not be inclined to buy plugins with long render times. FXFactory Pro is about $400 although it's not necessary to buy that just to use the various third party plugins on that system.

Just a wild guess but I wouldn't be surprised if FXFactory at $399 sold more that Sapphire Edge at $299. If you look at price per plugin CoreMelt's SliceX with Mocha's planar tracking at $149 would be expensive but because it's utilitarian and speeds workflow I think it would sell well compared to the "pretty" sets which have a lower cost per plugin.

I'm not quite sure what metrics show that it's NLE price and not the market it's serving as the primary factor in sales of expensive plugins.



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Bernhard GriningerRe: Apple is at NAB!!!
by on Apr 11, 2013 at 5:11:22 pm

[Craig Seeman] "It may not be the price of the NLE so much as the market it's currently serving."

Hello,

I absolutely agree on that! But it's not only about money, but also about an app's philosophy:


FCP-X lives from it's very compact and effective design.

What makes FCP-X so attractive to me is it's promise
to provide 90% of the tools I need for 90% of my tasks at my finger tips.

While I'm very excited by the new SliceX, as FCP-X user I'd only be comfortable
if such a great and important feature was deeply integrated into the core of FCP-X,
not being 'just' a plugin. (Integrated in the kind of the current masking tools inside CC.)

The more plugins I need for everyday tasks, the less attractive FCP-X is to me.

Best regards,
Bernhard


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Craig SeemanRe: Apple is at NAB!!!
by on Apr 11, 2013 at 5:37:55 pm

I agree it's possible it can become a patch quilt of plugins to add bits of functionality that one would prefer were built in. This can get even more complex when you need to use multiple systems.

There's a lot of little things missing. The more I bump into them the more I think it's going to take Apple more than a year between some major feature additions and a lot of minor things that might not be the highest priority.

I think another thing impacting the sale of some plugins are that some people might be concerned about buying a specific purpose expensive plugin only to find Apple adds the feature three months later.



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Thomas FrankRe: Apple is at NAB!!!
by on Apr 12, 2013 at 9:36:48 pm

I find the Slice-X with Mocha also cool but way overdue!
We should have seen something like this already in Motion and FCPX.

Also where the hell are the painting tools from Shake in Motion???



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Oliver PetersRe: Apple is at NAB!!!
by on Apr 12, 2013 at 11:03:53 pm

[Thomas Frank] "I find the Slice-X with Mocha also cool but way overdue!
We should have seen something like this already in Motion and FCPX.
Also where the hell are the painting tools from Shake in Motion???"


Don't expect X to ever be a powerhouse effects tool. It has the edge with transitions over other NLEs. Performance with internal color-correction-based looks and styles is quite good. Other effects take a big back seat to other NLEs. Motion is a great tool in its own right that few editors ever touch. The future of X in high-end workflows is as a great offline editing tool (maybe).

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Andy FieldRe: Apple is at NAB!!!
by on Apr 11, 2013 at 4:22:29 pm

Nice overview, Oliver. Agree -- we've transitioned from FCP 7 to PP6 and tested 7 (great improvements) We use AVID when client calls for it (delivered AVID Timelines to post to longer shows)

After two years and so many flame wars, many FCP X fans often forget that most, if not all FCP 7 editors WANTED to love X -- but had a tough time changing many conventions to fit Apple's idea of what editors should do and how they should think.

The lack of a real time keyframable audio mixer stops us from doing long form work with FCP X - also not thrilled about the locked in place window nature of the program on one monitor.

Overall, there have never been better, more robust choices for editors. FCP X is great for quick and dirty fast turn around work for us and we've used it for that. Premiere Pro has become are main NLE for it's integration with AE and Audition and ease of use. Avid is our least favorite NLE -- feels creaky and last decade.

Wish I could have been at the Las Vegas toy store with the folks who went.

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Lance BachelderRe: Apple is at NAB!!!
by on Apr 12, 2013 at 7:30:13 pm

One thing I'll say after 4 days in the AJA booth and walking the show - of all the NLE companies at the show - Adobe seems to be the most aggressive, frank and open in it's efforts to make their products better. They know they've been 90% there with Premiere for a while and are earnestly trying to get that last 10%., especially for FCP 7 users. The simple little things we used daily in FCP 7 like moving a clip up or down on the timeline etc are the things they're trying to get right. I got to spend a little time with one of the Product Managers at my station Thursday and the "next" version really looks good. This doesn't mean I'm ready to abandon FCPX but I will give it s fair shake on a paying gig and see.

While I'm a big fan of Resolve the big surprise for me was Speedgrade - the new version looks great and finally has hardware monitoring via all the AJA products. This is good news for AJA fans who were forced to buy Black Magic gear just for for Resolve. I spent 2 days at the AJA Speedgrade station with a Tangent Element controller and it's very sweet - actually easier and faster than Resolve. Round-tripping from Premiere is still a work-in-progress and will only get better.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Oliver PetersRe: Apple is at NAB!!!
by on Apr 12, 2013 at 11:00:33 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "of all the NLE companies at the show - Adobe seems to be the most aggressive, frank and open in it's efforts to make their products better."

Completely agreed. They have a good story to tell and a good team and seem to really feed off of the interaction with customers.

[Lance Bachelder] "I spent 2 days at the AJA Speedgrade station with a Tangent Element controller and it's very sweet - actually easier and faster than Resolve."

My experience with the current SG versus Resolve, is that real-time performance is much better with several layers in SG versus several nodes in Resolve. No need for additional GPU cards.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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