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Speaking of tipping points...

COW Forums : Apple FCPX or Not: The Debate

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David LawrenceSpeaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 8:11:23 am

There's this:
The next version of Adobe video tools has been developed with features created
in direct response to the needs of filmmakers, broadcasters and video
professionals. In fact, the multiple Academy Award winning Coen brothers have
been working directly with the Adobe Premiere Pro product team and are switching
to Adobe Premiere Pro for their next feature film slated for late 2013.
From this Adobe Press release:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/04/ca-adobe-systems-idUSnBw47wjVwa+1...

(HT to David Cherniack who posted about this in the thread below)

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
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Andrew KimeryRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 8:45:32 am

Coen Brothers using it on their next film... interesting. Coen Brothers using it on their next, next film... impressive statement.

If PPro gets on the 'Hollywood track' before FCPX does that could put PPro on a similar trajectory that FCP Legend took. Avid, unfortunately, gets the short end of the stick here because it's just assumed that big budget projects will use Avid MC. No one bats an eye when a movie cut on Avid wins an Oscar but it's front page news when someone picks an NLE besides Avid to use on their Hollywood picture.

I think time and improvements are beginning to soften once stalwart attitudes against FCPX. I've heard a number of primarily TV editors in LA lament, for lack of a better word, that they'll probably have to learn FCPX eventually and these are some of the same people that used to say they'd never touch FCPX with a 10 foot pole.

Looks like things are shaping up for a nice 3 dog race.




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Mark DobsonRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 11:35:28 am

woof woof


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Oliver PetersRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 1:13:37 pm

For a bit of insight into how the Coens work:

http://digitalfilms.wordpress.com/2007/12/16/no-country-for-old-men-coen-br...

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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+3

Michael PhillipsRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 3:05:01 pm

That's a pretty straightforward workflow (film always is... ;) ) with the lab creating all the dailies with syncing and logging for the editorial. What gets interesting is the processes during editorial with change management, audio delivery and such.

I wonder what will change in their workflow with Premiere Pro - seeing as they are writer/director/editor - I always thought that ScriptSync or in this case, the script integration with Adobe Story would be a place to start. I wonder if they are writing the screenplay for the film in Adobe Story, or if they opened a Final Draft and then took advantages of the Adobe Story feature set.

Michael


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Aindreas GallagherRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 11:04:36 am

That my friends, is just a huge, gigantic, gargantuan vote of confidence, head turner biggie right there.

Meanwhile Apple is posting profile FCPX user stories from a newspaper in Canada.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mduzh2pot41rxmai6o1_500.gif

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Marcus MooreRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 2:38:18 pm

Yes. Canada's LARGEST newspaper.

...and feature director Tsui Hark.

But let's not let facts get in the way...



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Aindreas GallagherRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 2:50:32 pm

right of course. well - FCPX is slaying it in the canadian newspaper scene then. man thats a headline.

tee hee.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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+1

Post removed.


David CherniackRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 2:52:18 pm

[Marcus Moore] "es. Canada's LARGEST newspaper.

...and feature director Tsui Hark.

But let's not let facts get in the way..."


All I see is Tina Fey mugging (shamelessly but charmingly). Not much facts there :) Must be a removed link or something.

Seriously? Canada's largest newspaper? Tsui Hark? I'm Canadian, and I've heard of Tina Fey but not of Tsui Hark.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Marcus MooreRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 2:56:04 pm

Tina Fey? What are you talking about?

http://www.apple.com/finalcutpro/in-action/



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David CherniackRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 3:21:40 pm

[Marcus Moore] "Tina Fey? What are you talking about?"

See my other post.

Oh, that Tsui Hark. I thought the reference was to a Canadian director. I think from the article they're using it to piece together dailies at this stage....It'll be interesting if they try do do the whole film in it.

As far as the Globe and Mail being Canada's largest national circulation newspaper well being first out of two is definitely true. But giving it to their reporters that's not exactly a ringing endorsement of its editorial prowess. And God forbid, they try to turn any more of their print journalists into on-camera personalities. That experiment has been just an exercise in advanced awkward.

Nothing to do with FCPX and its future but it's still mostly a fanboy thing. I think Apple has the design in place to bring it up to par with Avid/Adobe but I'm not sure the management powers that be have the will. If they do it will still take another few years.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Steve ConnorRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 3:25:19 pm

[David Cherniack] "Nothing to do with FCPX and its future but it's still mostly a fanboy thing. I think Apple has the design in place to bring it up to par with Avid/Adobe but I'm not sure the management powers that be have the will. If they do it will still take another few years.
"


Of course some of us fanboys would disagree, especially when some of Adobe's new features are just playing catchup with FCP7/X

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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David CherniackRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 3:30:06 pm

[Steve Connor] "Of course some of us fanboys would disagree, especially when some of Adobe's new features are just playing catchup with FCP7/X"

As FCPX's features are playing catch up with Adobe's. As Adobe has had a head start of a few years in the 64 bit ingest and play any media I don't think it would be fair to compare head to head :)

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Steve ConnorRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 3:36:57 pm

[David Cherniack] "As Adobe has had a head start of a few years in the 64 bit ingest and play any media I don't think it would be fair to compare head to head :)
"


Maybe not, as some of us prefer the option of the stability and speed of use of a good quality intermediate codec. Ingesting native media is great and very useful a lot of the time but there is a price to pay for it.

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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David CherniackRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 3:46:10 pm

[Steve Connor] "Maybe not, as some of us prefer the option of the stability and speed of use of a good quality intermediate codec. Ingesting native media is great and very useful a lot of the time but there is a price to pay for it."

Steve, Adobe has said DNxHD mezzanine support in the next version. That to me means DNxHD as an intermediate codec.

http://broadcastengineering.com/blog/adobe-anywhere-updates-nab

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Michael PhillipsRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 3:50:40 pm

I think that adding native MXF/DNxHD is the start of adding flexibility to many more workflows. I agree with Steve that a proxy editorial workflow is many times preferred due to amount of footage, performance (multicam and such), ability to quickly copy to a cheap small drive and go edit on set, etc.

Michael


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Steve ConnorRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 3:50:46 pm

[David Cherniack] "That to me means DNxHD as an intermediate codec.
"


I hadn't understood it as that, but if it's true it would be a big step

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Shawn MillerRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 4:06:10 pm

[Steve Connor] "[David Cherniack] "That to me means DNxHD as an intermediate codec.
"

I hadn't understood it as that, but if it's true it would be a big step"


It's in Adobe's NAB 2013 Premiere Pro preview document.

"Mezzanine codecs, native formats
Industry-standard mezzanine codecs are built right in with Adobe Premiere Pro. Edit across platforms
using Apple® ProRes (encode on Mac OS X 10.8 only). Support for encoding and decoding MXFwrapped
Avid DNxHD files is available on both Mac and Windows. Natively edit even more formats
thanks to new support for Sony XAVC, Panasonic AVC-Intra 200, and others."

http://success.adobe.com/assets/en/downloads/events/nab-2013/Preview_Premie...

Shawn



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Aindreas GallagherRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 4:10:07 pm

thats a bit of a deal really - mostly in terms of people's perception of the software, but thats a biggie - so presumably that means if we're pro res on the timeline, and pro res on export, we don't get the render hit.. and the sequence can be parcelled off to resolve nicely?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Shawn MillerRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 4:24:51 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "thats a bit of a deal really - mostly in terms of people's perception of the software, but thats a biggie - so presumably that means if we're pro res on the timeline, and pro res on export, we don't get the render hit.. and the sequence can be parcelled off to resolve nicely?"

Hopefully, I'm always in favor of faster renders. I also like the native support for DNxHD in MXF, it should make footage from the Black Magic Shuttle easier to work with.

Truthfully though, I'm a lot more ecxited about the new AE/Cinema 4D intergration... C4D Lite now bundled with AE... AE now uses the C4D render engine... HOLY CRAP! This makes the Creative Suite ridiculously powerful.

http://landingpage.maxon.net/?lang=en

Shawn



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Aindreas GallagherRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 4:43:04 pm

[Shawn Miller] "C4D Lite now bundled with AE... AE now uses the C4D render engine... HOLY CRAP! This makes the Creative Suite ridiculously powerful. "


I know THAT IS INSANE. hey look - you know what? here - just have a copy of cinema 4D and a full native pipeline.

beautiful, beautiful mindboggling overkill on feature delivery.

AMAZEBALLS.

lots of nice little touches too.

https://vimeo.com/63091546#

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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+1

David McGavranRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 4:27:42 pm

Yes that is what it means :)

Cheers

Dvae

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David McGavran, Adobe Systems Incorporated
Senior Engineering Manager Adobe Premiere Pro
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Aindreas GallagherRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 4:48:40 pm

Ha! thats mental. - er, hello Premiere Pro Senior Engineer Person who just apparated onto the forum to answer questions.

we are sitting in a pile of christmas wrapping paper. Pure savage release of the suite, congrats.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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David McGavranRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 5:15:28 pm

Hello,

There are many Premiere people lurking on these forums. We poke our heads out every once in a while when we aren't cranking out all the good stuff ;) Many of us will be at NAB so come out and say hi.

Cheers

Dave

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David McGavran, Adobe Systems Incorporated
Senior Engineering Manager Adobe Premiere Pro
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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+6

Chris HarlanRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 4:50:23 pm

[David McGavran] "Yes that is what it means :)

Cheers
"


The other delightful thing it means, with DNx, is a codec that will move easily between OS X and Win8.


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Aindreas GallagherRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 4:58:45 pm

tell me this doesn't look like a winner. I want to edit in that thing. more than I want to edit in 7. Its the first ime i could honestly flat out say that.

also apparently timeline interaction is just lightning quick now. one early reviewer said it was noticeably faster even on his older hardware. not a trace of lag anywhere.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chris HarlanRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 5:18:28 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "tell me this doesn't look like a winner. I want to edit in that thing. more than I want to edit in 7. Its the first ime i could honestly flat out say that. "

I agree. And the DNx thing is huge for me. Means I can AFF between MC and Pr like nobody's business.


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Steve ConnorRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 4:14:18 pm

[Shawn Miller] "Industry-standard mezzanine codecs are built right in with Adobe Premiere Pro. Edit across platforms
using Apple® ProRes (encode on Mac OS X 10.8 only). Support for encoding and decoding MXFwrapped
Avid DNxHD files is available on both Mac and Windows."


I can't find any detail on how this is implemented, whether you can transcode on import or in the project.

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Aindreas GallagherRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 4:20:43 pm

its generally rather exciting though isn't it?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Shawn MillerRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 4:27:46 pm

[Steve Connor] "I can't find any detail on how this is implemented, whether you can transcode on import or in the project."

Good question. I assume this done through Prelude... but I guess we'll have to see.

Shawn



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Mark DobsonRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 3:56:44 pm

It's a bit like a game of ping-pong here sometimes.

Surely the reality is that different NLEs are more suitable for certain jobs than others. Having seen screen grabs of Walter Murch's film editing work with FCP7 there is no easy way he could replicate that in FCPX whereas you could see him working with PP.

It's still early days for FCPX and its far more suitable for Camera/Editors and small production houses than larger projects.


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Oliver PetersRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 4:02:29 pm

[Mark Dobson] "Having seen screen grabs of Walter Murch's film editing work with FCP7 there is no easy way he could replicate that in FCPX whereas you could see him working with PP."

While that's completely true, you need to remember that some of that complexity is due to the nature of tracks. I've done some film class editing instruction where we used double-system sound on a scene I had the students cut in X. Synched clips (what would be merged clips in FCP 7) had a total of 12 channels of audio. In a track-based paradigm, that means dragging around clips for all of those channels or using something like Sync-N-Link later. With X, this is simply collapsed into a single clip "capsule".

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Dennis RadekeRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 7:41:14 pm

[Steve Connor] "when some of Adobe's new features are just playing catchup with FCP7/X"

Steve, to be completely fair, I would argue that every NLE has 'caught up' with some features to every other NLE that's out there. Great ideas do not work in a vacuum or at a single place. Case in point - Apple's skimming feature and Adobe's hover scrub feature. Pretty similar idea but coming at the same time from different companies.

Also, I'm proud to say that FCP/X has caught up to Premiere Pro and every other NLE by adding a source monitor...Teasing!

Dennis - Adobe guy


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Steve ConnorRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 7:44:10 pm

[Dennis Radeke] "Steve, to be completely fair, I would argue that every NLE has 'caught up' with some features to every other NLE that's out there. Great ideas do not work in a vacuum or at a single place."

Of course that is true, I'm just responding to the comment that FCPX is years behind. It's great for all of us that Adobe are taking ever bigger strides forward, now tell us when it's released!

I know, you have to save something for NAB

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Ty VannRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 8, 2013 at 8:14:42 pm

Seriously?? The "pro" editors of this forum don't know who Tsui Hark the pioneering director of HK is? This is a great forum, but y'all gotta get out once in a while. :)

The hey day of HK saw some great films, including some by Tsui Hark. My personal favorite for best editing has got to be Ashes of Time by Wong Kar-wai.

My guesstimate is that Apple/FCP has more users in Asia than PPro.


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Aindreas GallagherRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 3:06:54 pm

Tina Fey was a representation of me laughing horribly at the sorry state of FCPX up in the Canadian newspaper wilderness, as PPro is embraced by the foremost editing directorial auteurs of our time - namely the Coens.

you just read the two lines, then click on the gif - and that's me laughing there, a little manically.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Marcus MooreRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 4:04:43 pm

Are you really as myopic and deluded as you make out?

Or is this wonderful performance art?



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Aindreas GallagherRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 4:11:22 pm

I don't know marcus - I'm pretty sure you're a welsh farmer posing as an editor, but nothing is certain online..

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Sandeep SajeevRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 5:41:02 pm

Tsui Hark is a f**king legend. One of the few guys who's still pushing the envelope in Asian cinema. Look him up, some of his stuff is insane. That Time and Tide shot were they threw film cameras and stuntment down the skyscraper is pretty much representative of his approach to film making - a breathless, irreverent, imaginative, indie approach to what are pretty big budget Hong Kong films.

He's looking way too dignified for my liking in that photo though, I remember him scruffy and wild eyed setting up an action shot as a action director (in the behind the scenes of some martial arts movie) where the hero was going to crash into a small underground tunnel where he'd continue to kick ass while the tunnel collapsed around them. All real, no cg. I think it was a Jet Li film from back in the day, but not sure.

Basically, my point is, don't dismiss him or his body of work.


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Aindreas GallagherRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 5:51:05 pm

hey I'm not - I never mentioned him. I went for the canadian newspaper gag is all - nice little kick in the nuts for FCPX on the day the Coen brothers announce for PPro is all.

I watched the trailer - his stuff looks incredible.

[Sandeep Sajeev] "That Time and Tide shot were they threw film cameras and stuntment down the skyscraper is pretty much representative of his approach to film making"

that sounds pure mental.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Sandeep SajeevRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 6:18:24 pm

nice little kick in the nuts for FCPX on the day the Coen brothers announce for PPro is all.

Ha!

Nice to see Premiere looking so good. This new release really seems to have got a lot of the things that put me off when I was looking for FCP 7 alternatives, right.

The C4D integration will be a kick in the gut for Autodesk - Full 3D app, 3D Camera Tracker, next gen Roto ? Smoke needs to step up.


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Aindreas GallagherRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 6:32:04 pm

yeah, after effects is just a beast at this point.

And stuff like the 3D camera tracker - I mean that thing just works. Seriously powerful and it took me ten minutes to figure out how to use it.
The AE team is monstering it the last few releases.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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David CherniackRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 2:58:12 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "That my friends, is just a huge, gigantic, gargantuan vote of confidence, head turner biggie right there.

Meanwhile Apple is posting profile FCPX user stories from a newspaper in Canada.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mduzh2pot41rxmai6o1_500.gif"


That's the link showing in Aindreas' post

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Aindreas GallagherRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 3:10:50 pm

again people - that is a representation of my manic laughter at the sorry bedraggled state of FCPX in comparison to the one true PPro, soon to be put through its paces by two of the finest editors alive.

And then Meanwhile in a canadian newspaper....
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mduzh2pot41rxmai6o1_500.gif

see?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Oliver PetersRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 3:15:29 pm

If you look at the past films done by the Hong Kong director, you'll see that the films are quite a bit more ambitious that any Coens' film. Not to take away from them, but the workflow is pretty intense on these Kung Fu films.







- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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David CherniackRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 3:26:43 pm

[Oliver Peters] "If you look at the past films done by the Hong Kong director, you'll see that the films are quite a bit more ambitious that any Coens' film. Not to take away from them, but the workflow is pretty intense on these Kung Fu films."

See my post http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/50783

I'm familiar with his work which is heavily CGI laden. That's why I think that it will be interesting to see how far they use it down the post chain. My guess is that the editor brought it in as his fave to assemble dailies...but that's just a complete guess.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Oliver PetersRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 3:37:23 pm

[David Cherniack] "That's why I think that it will be interesting to see how far they use it down the post chain. My guess is that the editor brought it in as his fave to assemble dailies...but that's just a complete guess."

Well, I have suspicions, too. But, did you actually read the "in action" story?

http://www.apple.com/finalcutpro/in-action/detective-dee/

It does go into the post workflow details, including using SGO Mistika for final grade, conform and S3D adjustments.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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tony westRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 5:14:19 pm

Hark and Yu's credentials are greater than most so you would think their thoughts would carry more weight.


I wonder why they don't. hummmmmm


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Oliver PetersRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 5:16:51 pm

[tony west] "I wonder why they don't. hummmmmm"

Because this forum, like most, is west-centric. Their films haven't made it into the standard Hollywood-distribution circuit. So they are largely unknown.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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tony westRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 5:21:19 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Because this forum, like most, is west-centric. Their films haven't made it into the standard Hollywood-distribution circuit. So they are largely unknown."


OK, but you posted their work and a link to what they had to say on Apple's site now let's see if it changes.


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Chris HarlanRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 5:24:32 pm

[tony west] "OK, but you posted their work and a link to what they had to say on Apple's site now let's see if it changes.
"


Changes what?


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tony westRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 5:27:30 pm

[Chris Harlan] "Changes what?"



The amount of respect they get


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Chris HarlanRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 5:49:45 pm

[tony west] "[Chris Harlan] "Changes what?"



The amount of respect they get"


I'm not a kung fu movie fan, so I'm not particularly drawn to their movies, but I certainly don't disrespect them.

Does this have something to do with the "Cold Mountain moment" meme? Whoa--look at the Coen Bros. using Pr, but nobody's all who-ha about X and these guys? I think the whole "Cold Mountain" thing as a mark of "software on the rise to some sort of heavenly dominance" is a little over-done. As Tim beautifully pointed out in another recent post, things have changed greatly since Cold Mountain clawed its way into existence.


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Charlie AustinRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 6:30:33 pm

[Chris Harlan] "Does this have something to do with the "Cold Mountain moment" meme? Whoa--look at the Coen Bros. using Pr, but nobody's all who-ha about X and these guys? I think the whole "Cold Mountain" thing as a mark of "software on the rise to some sort of heavenly dominance" is a little over-done."

Agreed. However, I do think that there is a not so subtle undertone of condescension from some of the voices in these new "Premiere Pro or Not: the Foregone Conclusion" threads. ;-)

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~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Aindreas GallagherRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 6:36:37 pm

hey hey come on - I respect Canadian newspapers as much as the next man.

I think its great that FCPX is carving out a new role there. In canadian newspapers.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mduzh2pot41rxmai6o1_500.gif

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Charlie AustinRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 6:57:44 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "hey hey come on - I respect Canadian newspapers as much as the next man.

I think its great that FCPX is carving out a new role there. In canadian newspapers.
"


Speaking of newspapers and Canadians...







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~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Marcus MooreRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 8:11:40 pm

So there's only one workflow and one type customers that's worth talking about?



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Aindreas GallagherRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 8:22:49 pm

Absolutely not Marcus - Canadian newspapers, belgian trade magazines, why they need a short form rough cut editing system as much as the Coen brothers need to express the highest level of the editing art. In Premiere Pro.

But the point is FCPX is right there - on point and ready to go. for that canadian newspaper.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mduzh2pot41rxmai6o1_500.gif

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Marcus MooreRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 8:53:57 pm

Yup. It's truly foreboding. Just like when the Cohen's started editing on Final Cut almost a decade ago. That was the final nail in the coffin for AVID...



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Aindreas GallagherRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 10:03:38 pm

Ah no marcus - sure Avid's fine, Premiere is fine, and you know what - FCPX is fine too man - its up there, plugging those gaps in unlikely spots like say, some canadian newspaper - and its honest work you know? someone's got to do it, and its great that FCPX is out there doing it.

seriously - fair play to FCPX - its... like the little engine that could.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mduzh2pot41rxmai6o1_500.gif

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chris HarlanRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 10:58:34 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "seriously - fair play to FCPX - its... like the little engine that could."

Oh, no. Aindreas is being a very naughty engine:







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Aindreas GallagherRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 11:14:10 pm

hey - christmas comes but once a year - you've got to grab it with both hands and a tina fey gif.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chris HarlanRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 6:58:24 pm

[Charlie Austin] "I do think that there is a not so subtle undertone of condescension from some of the voices in these new "Premiere Pro or Not: the Foregone Conclusion" threads"

Undertones of condescension? No, it's pure raucous gloating. Don't mess with the honey badger. Smiley emoticon goes here.

But, that's today. Yesterday was all about how X had reached its tipping point. Tomorrow is about how Avid... Well, actually nobody is going to say anything about Avid tomorrow (other than Craig detailing another lawsuit) and yet, weirdly, its the only one of these NLEs I'm going to get certification on. Go figure.


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Charlie AustinRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 6:59:57 pm

[Chris Harlan] "Undertones of condescension? No, it's pure raucous gloating. Don't mess with the honey badger. Smiley emoticon goes here.

But, that's today. Yesterday was all about how X had reached its tipping point. Tomorrow is about how Avid... Well, actually nobody is going to say anything about Avid tomorrow (other than Craig detailing another lawsuit) and yet, weirdly, its the only one of these NLEs I'm going to get certification on. Go figure."


lol... True.

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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tony westRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 7:54:10 pm

[Chris Harlan] "Does this have something to do with the "Cold Mountain moment" meme?"


No, it's not really about the type of movies they make.

It's more about the level of production value and budget.

They do Top end films

Many have questioned if X could be used on that level.

That question should be answered by those two.

Unless……….they are seen by some as some what second level. If that is the case…..why is that?


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Aindreas GallagherRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 8:15:58 pm

to be fair Tony - its not exactly clear from the description what role FCPX is playing in the upcoming production - also I don't think he has any films in the can cut on it or does he? I only read it the once actually. I thought the idea was that he was working it on on his current project.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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tony westRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 8:33:31 pm

"the director recently took another step back to the future with Young Detective Dee: Rise of the Sea Dragon, a highly anticipated prequel shot with state-of-the-art 3D cameras and edited in Final Cut Pro X."

Am I missing it?



"I asked Tsui if he liked the new version and wanted to continue the project with it. He said yes, and at that point we completely migrated the movie to Final Cut Pro X.”

I don't know, seems pretty clear to me.


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Aindreas GallagherRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 8:49:44 pm

Oh sorry I'm an idiot - I should have checked before I replied. Yes that seems extremely clear - and his movies look like stunning - so if its good enough for him like..

Still - I'm basically in crowing mode here over PPro7 and the Coen endorsement - don't distract me with rationality.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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tony westRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 9:10:39 pm

hehehe ok : )


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Andrew KimeryRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 8:19:04 pm

[tony west] "Unless……….they are seen by some as some what second level. If that is the case…..why is that?"

I think someone else already mentioned it's basically about notoriety in a West-centric industry on a West-centric forum. It's not about talent level any more than saying Wayne Rooney is a second rate talent because in America he would be a less effective pitchman than Peyton Manning.




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Chris HarlanRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 8:33:46 pm

[tony west] "No, it's not really about the type of movies they make.

It's more about the level of production value and budget.

They do Top end films

Many have questioned if X could be used on that level.

That question should be answered by those two.

Unless……….they are seen by some as some what second level. If that is the case…..why is that?
"


First, I don't think the question is, anymore, CAN X do something; I think it is now, do you WANT to use X to do something. For the record, I have absolutely no doubt that it would be far easier to do a film the size of Cold Mountain on the current version of X, then it was at the time it was cut on FCP. Second, it is a matter of proximity--for me, at least--and not second level or second tier work. I work in LA. The Coen Bros. are much closer to my ecosystem than anyone in the Hong Kong film world, and the choices that they make may have some more immediate effect on my own work. If Warner Bros. announced tomorrow that they were going all X, I would be too. Immediately. Without question, I would drop everything and would be running X tutorials like mad. I work in an environment where I have freedom to choose much of what I want, but also have to pay serious heed to what others are doing. There is a bit of a flock or herd element to all of this.


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Franz BieberkopfRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 8:41:12 pm

[Chris Harlan] "I have absolutely no doubt that it would be far easier to do a film the size of Cold Mountain on the current version of X, then it was at the time it was cut on FCP"

Chris,

Easier in what way?

Franz.


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Chris HarlanRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 8:54:00 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "Chris,

Easier in what way?

Franz.
"


I don't have any links at hand, but from what I've read it was quite a troubled, arduous process that required a lot of intervention and, generally, invention. And, this was for an offline cut. There has just been so much development over the last decade, that we tend to forget how far we've come. Sure, you have to be inventive, but I don't think the challenges are quite as great as they once were. For me the question is, would I really want to?

In another post today about a potential "Cold Mountain Moment," Tim pithily replied:

If by Cold Mountain Moment you mean "the film with a hugely impractical workflow requiring the massive efforts of an international team, a workflow so bizarrely complicated that it took an entire book to explain how they crawled over the software's glaring shortcomings," then, well, we'll have to wait and see. LOL


I think that about captures it.


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Franz BieberkopfRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 9:22:44 pm

[Chris Harlan] " There has just been so much development over the last decade"

Chris,

I had to look it up - it was 2003 (release) so I assume they were on FCP3. I did my first FCP film finish on 4.5 I think, but I don't really remember what the difference would have been (3 years into it's short 9 year release life ...)

The thing is that it still comes down to work preferences - I can't imagine X being easier to do my mixes in, for example, and that's even assuming that FCP3 didn't have support for control surfaces (which I think may have come with 4). I'm deeply intrigued (and highly skeptical) at the thought of seeing Walter Murch transform the trackless timeline into one of his many-tracked database-timelines - which is another way of saying I'm not sure he'd find that aspect easier.

And I'm not sure how you would pull a neg cut list from X - probably by going through 7. But then, today they likely wouldn't be shooting film, and certainly not finishing on it, so that's not really a point of comparison.

Cutting in HD (or higher) would certainly be easier to achieve.

When you attempt to shift paradigms and habits, some things get easier, and some things get harder.

I'd be interested in reading more about it, if anyone has a historical link.

Primarily, though, we have many more options on many levels today - and that transcends any single NLE.

Franz.


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Andrew KimeryRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 9:51:54 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "I had to look it up - it was 2003 (release) so I assume they were on FCP3. I did my first FCP film finish on 4.5 I think, but I don't really remember what the difference would have been (3 years into it's short 9 year release life ...)"

It's been a while since I've read Murch's book about the ordeal, but from what I remember there were some new features in FCP 4 that would've been helpful but Apple wouldn't allow them access to the beta of 4. Apple actually didn't want anything to do with the project because they were afraid of failure and the resulting black eye it could give FCP. Digital Film Tree and Sean Cullen (Murch's long time AE) basically cobbled together a tedious workflow from scratch.




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Oliver PetersRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 10:08:46 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "It's been a while since I've read Murch's book about the ordeal, but from what I remember there were some new features in FCP 4 that would've been helpful but Apple wouldn't allow them access to the beta of 4. Apple actually didn't want anything to do with the project because they were afraid of failure and the resulting black eye it could give FCP. Digital Film Tree and Sean Cullen (Murch's long time AE) basically cobbled together a tedious workflow from scratch."

Let's not get all wrapped up in this. I've actually interviewed Murch, Cullen and Apple's managers at that time about this. Before "Cold Mountain", the Coens had already been using FCP and they had direct support in that endeavor from Apple. On "Cold Mountain" it would have required support long distance in another country, which Apple was not able to supply. So they were quite reluctant. Digital Film Tree stepped in to provide support.

"Cold Mountain" was shot on film, which added a wrinkle in those days, because film tracking and support for negative cutting didn't really exist in FCP (pre-Cinema Tools, I believe) the way it did with Avid. If you do a search for Murch's speech at the NAB SuperMeet several years back, Murch goes into some of the history as part of his workflow discussion of "Youth Without Youth". The reason he decided to go down the route of FCP, was due to Cullen's urging, sparked by less-than-satisfactory support of shared storage by Avid in Europe on "The Talented Mr. Ripley". So he felt it was time to look elsewhere.

It's a completely different time these days. So many films are shot and posted in a completely digital fashion, that the arcane arts of working with 35mm cut lists, etc. are almost entirely gone in Hollywood.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Franz BieberkopfRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 10:43:28 pm

[Oliver Peters] " film tracking and support for negative cutting didn't really exist in FCP (pre-Cinema Tools, I believe)"

Oliver,

Cinema Tools was purchased and released in (April?) 2002. It may not have been part of their workflow, but it predated the release if not the production and was before FCP4.

Also, was it compatible with FCP pre-purchase by Apple? Or was it unrelated?

Franz.


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Oliver PetersRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 10:44:55 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "Also, was it compatible with FCP pre-purchase by Apple? Or was it unrelated?"

I'm not sure. I think unrelated, because it tracked a key number database against an EDL for negative cutting.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Sandeep SajeevRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 5, 2013 at 6:03:43 am

Cinema Tools was around in 2003, and was compatible with FCP 3. I used it as an assistant on a feature then.


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 10:50:53 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "It's been a while since I've read Murch's book about the ordeal, but from what I remember there were some new features in FCP 4 that would've been helpful but Apple wouldn't allow them access to the beta of 4."

I think it was the advent of XML, wasn't it?


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Chris HarlanRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 10:19:55 pm

Hey, man, I'm not saying do it. That would NOT be my advice. From where I sit, there are far too many better alternatives. But if you gave me the choice of cutting a feature on X or FCP 2/3beta (remember that, at the time, there is no Cinema Tools, and program still lacks several basic list functions, which Apple had to write for them, and, no, no control surfaces, and comparatively weak hardware with very little available in the way of i/o), I'd choose X. Well, and ProTools.

It's hard to remember, but a lot has changed.


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Charlie AustinRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 10:35:28 pm

[Chris Harlan] "t's hard to remember, but a lot has changed."

Except for the reaction to the "new NLE on the block" by a large, vocal group of users of "established" NLE's. Including those who use an older product from the same company.

I was just looking at some of the old bug reports I submitted from my "classic" beta testing days (which were for version 2.5 up through v 4 or so), as well as some of my email exchanges with the FCP team at the time. Deja Vu all over again. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Oliver PetersRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 10:37:42 pm

[Chris Harlan] " But if you gave me the choice of cutting a feature on X or FCP 2/3beta"

Completely agree. I'd be willing to do it right now.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Aindreas GallagherRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 5:54:33 pm

hey - just to add, I am in no way dissing that dude - his stuff looks incredible -

I just wanted to make a snarky comparison between PPro and the Coen brothers and FCPX and a canadian newspaper, thats pretty hard to resist.
- I'm fairly sure I didn't mention that dude at all.

A

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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tony westRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 8:53:53 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "- I'm fairly sure I didn't mention that dude at all."

I know, that's why I asked about him. Seems like he would be a more interesting topic on this forum than some Canadian newspaper.

It least, it would seem that way to me.


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David CherniackRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 6:10:13 pm

[tony west] "The amount of respect they get"

Tony, I think you might keep in mind that Apple did a lot of hurt to a huge number of people with the way they released X. In clear terms it showed no respect for their editing community so to ask many in that community to have respect for X may be asking too much. I think it will take a lot of water under the bridge and a lot of fantastic things in X, for most of those people to forget what was done to them, if they ever can. I remember what Autodesk did to edit* users more than 10 years ago. The new Smoke may be a great product but it would have to leap tall buildings at a single bound while singing praises to Buddha, before I'd glance at it sideways. And I'm a forgiving person...but of people...companies who screw their customers, not so much. So Apple may have done themselves irreparable harm in the NLE field. You can't leave a bad taste in most people's mouths and expect them to happily taste your next meal.

Anyway that's my perspective on it, FWIW.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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tony westRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 8:48:42 pm

[David Cherniack] "to ask many in that community to have respect for X may be asking too much."

I wasn't really asking about respect for X

I was asking about respect for Hark and Yu

I was wondering if their opinions carried much weight and if not, why not?


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David CherniackRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 9:14:25 pm

[tony west] "I wasn't really asking about respect for X

I was asking about respect for Hark and Yu

I was wondering if their opinions carried much weight and if not, why not?"


Well you were really asking if their opinions about X merited respect. That's hard to judge from an Apple puff piece where it appears they're using to assemble dailies and send to Mistika for return of roughed-in CGI work. Just as hard as it is to judge what the Coens' opinion about Premiere Pro is from the Adobe announcement. I suppose it's just nice to hear about.

As to Hark and Yu getting respect anyone who's seen Flying Sword at Dragon's Gate would have to respect their use of CGI and superb use of 3D - best 3D I've seen in a dramatic movie though Pina is my all time best use of it in an artistic sense.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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tony westRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 9:35:45 pm

[David Cherniack] "Well you were really asking if their opinions about X merited respect. That's hard to judge from an Apple puff piece "

We both agree that they are very talented.

I think we can also agree that they really like using X (for whatever they are using it for)

I enjoyed reading about their experiences with it.


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Aindreas GallagherRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 9:51:27 pm

second vote for Pina. thought that was just utterly gorgeous. I was looking into a stage box with perfect little people dancing in it. beautiful.

actually the water splash dance just popped into my head - and that amazing chair dance. some really memorable stuff.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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David CherniackRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 10:09:04 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] " I was looking into a stage box with perfect little people dancing in it. beautiful"

It really was exactly that. Completely sold me on the possibilities of 3D...and educated me somewhat about the limits for its best use.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Aindreas GallagherRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 11:11:59 pm

me too absolutely - you really felt there was an ideal scale of figure and composition for 3D and he just hit it quite a lot.

there is definitely a sweet spot.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Bret WilliamsRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 3:27:15 pm

I always thought Crouching Tiger and those sort of films and the floating fighting stuff was just so bizarre and unbelievable. But then, I wonder what they think when they see Spider Man or the Matrix. :)


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Michael PhillipsRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 3:27:37 pm

That's what I was referring to - it would be good to see the case study of Premiere Pro being used in this type of postproduction workflow and management of all the elements that come and go from the cutting room. I am sure it is capable of doing so - just want to get more insight into how.

Great trailer - have to track that film down. I am looking forward to Stephen Chow's "Journey to the West" as I loved Kung Fu Hustle and Shaolin Soccer. Would love to work on a film with him as he blends in so many of the styles.


Michael


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Chris HarlanRe: Speaking of tipping points...
by on Apr 4, 2013 at 4:57:46 pm

[David Cherniack] "
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mduzh2pot41rxmai6o1_500.gif"

That's the link showing in Aindreas' post

"


Love it.


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