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An NLE change from FCP poll results

COW Forums : Apple FCPX or Not: The Debate

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Richard CardonnaAn NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 12, 2013 at 5:48:27 pm

Looks like adobe is making a killing.

http://poll.pollcode.com/d36m_result?v


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John FishbackRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 12, 2013 at 6:25:16 pm

Not surprising. The first editor I used was Premiere - sometime in the early to mid 90s. That didn't last long. Then came Media100. When they started having problems, we switched to FCP. When X was introduced, we stuck with FCP7. Only recently did we move to FCPX. I couldn't be happier. It's speeded up our workflow and it was fun wrapping my head around FCPX. Can't say it's totally wrapped, yet. I love this forum. There isn't a day that goes by I don't learn something new here.

John

MacPro 8-core 2.8GHz, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.7.4, QT10.1, Kona 3, Dual Cinema 23, ATI Radeon HD 5870, 24" TV-Logic Monitor, ATTO ExpressSAS R380 RAID Adapter, PDE enclosure with 8-drive 6TB RAID 5
FCS 3 (FCP 7.0.3, Motion 4.0.3, Comp 3.5.3, DVDSP 4.2.2, Color 1.5.3)
FCP-X 10.0.7, Motion 5.0.6, Compressor 4.0.6

Pro Tools HD 10 w SYNC IO & 192 Digital I/O, Yamaha DM1000, Millennia Media HV-3C, Neumann U87, Schoeps Mk41 mics, Genelec DSP Monitors, Prima CDQ120 ISDN


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Oliver PetersRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 12, 2013 at 6:38:06 pm

While numbers might be valid, there's nothing to demonstrate that this poll has any statistical validity whatsoever.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Lance BachelderRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 12, 2013 at 7:32:17 pm

Well if you're going to switch it's painless and free - if you already have the Adobe Suite because you use Photoshop and After Effects you just click that icon you refused to even look at before X was released and open Premiere...

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Chris KennyRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 12, 2013 at 9:13:31 pm

We-based polls with self-selected samples are entirely meaningless. Passing this link around a couple of forums with a skeptical bent toward FCP X could trivially produce these results.

As a post house, I think we get a pretty good idea of what indie projects in the New York market are edited on, and you know what? We're still seeing the same mix of FCP 7 and Avid projects we were before FCP X was ever announced. Out of probably 100 projects we've had some level of contact with over the last year exactly two were edited in Premiere — nether of them features. We've also come into contact with one short film edited in FCP X. We seem to get more inquiries about FCP X than Premiere, interestingly, although I don't know if this is because there are more people considering it or because, with all of the noise the Internet has made about it, people want reassurance that a post house can handle projects from it. For the record, we can handle them just fine. In fact, an X-to-Resolve workflow is our standard choice for internal projects now.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Aindreas GallagherRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 12, 2013 at 9:50:28 pm

there is no way that Premiere is not getting a much more serious industry look than FCPX. It absolutely definitely is in London. There is concerted road testing going on. The bottom line is that there is a gigantic FCP7 shaped hole in the market - Avid can't really fill it, something needs to - and there really is damn all visible short to mid term likelihood of X doing so. The transition to PPro is reasonably painless. Even X's biggest boosters speak candidly about long periods of transition, and some odd workflows.

Let's just see what happens when PPro 7 is released. One way or another something has to give. I say the industry breaks decisively for PPro as the broad based FCP7 style second to Avid. With collapsing disciplines - The AE PS asset integration alone is hard to ignore.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Steve ConnorRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 12, 2013 at 10:03:00 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Let's just see what happens when PPro 7 is released. One way or another something has to give. I say the industry breaks decisively for PPro as the broad based FCP7 style second to Avid. With collapsing disciplines - The AE PS asset integration alone is hard to ignore"

I think PPro 7 is going to be an important release for Adobe, they've had the time to properly digest and act on the fallout from the FCPX launch, if they get it right then your prediction may come true.

Unless Apple drop a bomb with FCPX 10.1 of course :)

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Keith KobyRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 12, 2013 at 10:09:49 pm

I wouldn't count out anything. The only thing I know for sure is that Aindreas will be here telling us exactly how dead is fcpx.


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Aindreas GallagherRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 12, 2013 at 10:23:42 pm

unless its the sabbath. stay - try the veal.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Dennis RadekeRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 12, 2013 at 10:16:05 pm

[Steve Connor] "I think PPro 7 is going to be an important release for Adobe, they've had the time to properly digest and act on the fallout from the FCPX launch, if they get it right then your prediction may come true."

I would actually say that CS6 was more the release post FCP X. CS6 was shipped in early May 2012 and the release date of FCP X was June 21, 2011.

However, I hope that our next release will delight some more of you. If not, we'll still have a friendly conversation on this and other forums. ;-)

Dennis - Adobe


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Steve ConnorRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 12, 2013 at 10:27:03 pm

[Dennis Radeke] "I would actually say that CS6 was more the release post FCP X. CS6 was shipped in early May 2012 and the release date of FCP X was June 21, 2011.
"


That's true, but personally I would judge it on this release, a two year timeframe should have given your programmers enough time to address most of the concerns of potential FCP switchers. There's still a LOT of holdouts out there and Apple have been adding features rapidly - If FCPX 10.1 suddenly offered a track based option (for the "creative" editors) then you might have a fight on your hands!

Either way the users win!

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Chris HarlanRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 12, 2013 at 10:27:42 pm

[Dennis Radeke] "I would actually say that CS6 was more the release post FCP X. CS6 was shipped in early May 2012 and the release date of FCP X was June 21, 2011.

However, I hope that our next release will delight some more of you. If not, we'll still have a friendly conversation on this and other forums. ;-)"


Six was pretty convincing, Dennis. Here's to a lucky number 7!


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Chris KennyRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 12, 2013 at 10:21:18 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "there is no way that Premiere is not getting a much more serious industry look than FCPX. It absolutely definitely is in London. There is concerted road testing going on. The bottom line is that there is a gigantic FCP7 shaped hole in the market - Avid can't really fill it, something needs to - and there really is damn all visible short to mid term likelihood of X doing so. The transition to PPro is reasonably painless. Even X's biggest boosters speak candidly about long periods of transition, and some odd workflows."

FCP X now meets the fundamental technical requirements for broadcast/feature work. A 'Cold Mountain' moment for FCP X could change the narrative in a hurry — though as I keep emphasizing, this industry moves slowly, so changing the narrative wouldn't have a very immediate effect on adoption.

The other thing to keep in mind about FCP X is the price/accessibility thing. Before FCP started gaining mainstream adoption, it was used by outsiders, mostly young people, doing cool things at the edges of the market. Some of those people subsequently moved into more established organizations, or graduated to more 'serious' projects, and took their tools with them. The key question with respect to FCP X's long-term success is whether a similar dynamic is playing out there. The fact that FCP X installs had passed FCP installs by March of last year, the fact that it has sat near the stop of the App Store charts since its introduction, suggests perhaps it is. There are apparently a very large number of FCP X seats out there. And they're not soccer moms — contrary to the narrative some people attempted to push in the wake of FCP X's announcement, actual 'consumers' don't buy $300 content creation software.

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Let's just see what happens when PPro 7 is released. One way or another something has to give. I say the industry breaks decisively for PPro as the broad based FCP7 style second to Avid. With collapsing disciplines - The AE PS asset integration alone is hard to ignore."

It completely depends on what kinds of projects you're working on. For a lot of narrative work it's pretty easy to ignore, honestly. For the indie features we work on, for instance, you might spend a day on title elements, you might drop in half a dozen VFX shots done by an outside contractor... and meanwhile you'll probably spend six months just cutting, cutting, cutting. You're going to pick an NLE based on what makes it easiest to organize lots of footage and try out lots of different things on a timeline, not based on some workflow conveniences that might come into play for a couple of days at the end of the project.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Aindreas GallagherRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 12, 2013 at 10:55:52 pm

[Chris Kenny] "The other thing to keep in mind about FCP X is the price/accessibility thing."

you add in the plug-ins required to restore functionality, (and some of them have sticker shock), and that argument goes away fast.
Also, given it sits currently in the production suite - PPro is, in very many cases, free at the point of delivery.

bottom line you're right: this is going to move at a deliberative pace. God know it has so far. But the idea that the industry swing goes to a company that just burned a lot of houses, two and three times over including colour and fcp server, and then made exactly the curio one off they felt like at the time -
that is a little hard to swallow.

people like to know the software vendor is not likely to go - year zero flush everything - market crazy. Adobe has never looked crazy to me.

They seem to run a tight iterative ship, and PPro is pretty well tooled. have you tried the warp stabiliser? Isn't that ridiculous? Dropping avchd onto the timeline - on three year old hardware for the cut? The real time JKL trimming? You should really check out JKL trimming in PPro - it seems pretty well implemented to my limited understanding, and makes a complete joke of FCPX's trimming tools.

Here's a basic outline that outlines the methodology for you, FCP classic never got near this - rock and roll JKL was generally considered the domain of Avid really?

http://tv.adobe.com/watch/learn-premiere-pro-cs6/jkl-trimming/

Isn't that immensely useful? - of course the skimming behaviour in X, indeed the entire timeline model itself kills this kind of functionality. But the filmstrip mode is great fun to look at, and click and drag on repeatedly. The filmstrips can be horribly slow to redraw though. Still.

Also - aren't native curves nice? Proper keyframing tools?
Also Magic Bullet actually works in PPro. so there's that.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chris KennyRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 13, 2013 at 1:18:21 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "you add in the plug-ins required to restore functionality, (and some of them have sticker shock), and that argument goes away fast. "

It doesn't particularly seem to me that the median user requires any plug-ins.

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Also, given it sits currently in the production suite - PPro is, in very many cases, free at the point of delivery."

True for people who are already in the industry and already own $1500+ software packages (or already paying $50/month, I suppose). Not so much for folks just entering the field, and capturing those folks is critical for long-term success.

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Isn't that immensely useful? - of course the skimming behaviour in X, indeed the entire timeline model itself kills this kind of functionality.

This is not quite as unambiguously better as you seem to think it is. You can achieve something not too different in FCP X's trim tool using the 'extend edit' (shift-x) command, plus you also have the option of skimming the clips on both sides of the edit (and just clicking to trim). The trim tool, like that tool, can also be quickly advanced from one edit point to the next using up/down arrows.

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Also - aren't native curves nice? Proper keyframing tools? "

FCP X just prefers keyframing on the canvas for things like transforming. I'm not sure this is 'improper' so much as merely different — and a lot more sensible, objectively. Why adjust one-dimmentional keyframes to control 2D movement? Or were you talking about some other issue?

If by curves you mean for color adjustment, sure, those would be nice, but FCP X has pretty decent built-in color tools, and for added bonus points primary grades automatically transfer into Resolve — it embeds CDL information in XML files. This is handy for projects where you might want to do some grading in the NLE so you can spit out decent looking rough cuts, but you plan to finish through a DI workflow and you don't want to throw out your existing work.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Shawn MillerRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 13, 2013 at 1:38:12 am

[Chris Kenny] "[Aindreas Gallagher] "Also, given it sits currently in the production suite - PPro is, in very many cases, free at the point of delivery."

True for people who are already in the industry and already own $1500+ software packages (or already paying $50/month, I suppose). Not so much for folks just entering the field, and capturing those folks is critical for long-term success."


$19.99 a month seems very attractive.

https://www.adobe.com/education/products/creativecloud.html?promoid=ITKJK&s...

Let's not overlook the fact that Adobe has 30 day free trials of it's software and all of their creative applications are cross platform. For many of the people you're describing, FCPX isn't even an option because it's only available on Apple hardware.

Shawn



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Chris KennyRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 13, 2013 at 2:33:56 am

[Shawn Miller] "$19.99 a month seems very attractive."

If you qualify. Still ends up being more money in the long run. And while FCP X doesn't have an individual educational discount, it is $150 with volume purchasing.

[Shawn Miller] "Let's not overlook the fact that Adobe has 30 day free trials of it's software and all of their creative applications are cross platform. For many of the people you're describing, FCPX isn't even an option because it's only available on Apple hardware."

Macs are more popular now, particularly with e.g. college students, than they were when classic FCP was on the way up, so I don't really see this as a major barrier.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Shawn MillerRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 13, 2013 at 7:27:04 am

[Chris Kenny] "[Shawn Miller] "$19.99 a month seems very attractive."

If you qualify. Still ends up being more money in the long run. And while FCP X doesn't have an individual educational discount, it is $150 with volume purchasing."


I think it's hard to make a value argument against the Creative Cloud subscription in favor of FCPX. The CCS is more expensive over the long run, but it's also a LOT more powerful.

[Chris Kenny] "[Shawn Miller] "Let's not overlook the fact that Adobe has 30 day free trials of it's software and all of their creative applications are cross platform. For many of the people you're describing, FCPX isn't even an option because it's only available on Apple hardware."

Macs are more popular now, particularly with e.g. college students, than they were when classic FCP was on the way up, so I don't really see this as a major barrier."


Sure, Macs are more popular than they were before... that doesn't change my point. Adobe is interested in creative professionals, PC and Mac users alike. You said that it was important to capture folks just entering the field... I agree. I think Adobe's platform agnosticism and diverse product/capability offerings puts them in a better position to do that.

Shawn



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Chris KennyRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 13, 2013 at 2:16:26 pm

[Shawn Miller] "Sure, Macs are more popular than they were before... that doesn't change my point. Adobe is interested in creative professionals, PC and Mac users alike. You said that it was important to capture folks just entering the field... I agree. I think Adobe's platform agnosticism and diverse product/capability offerings puts them in a better position to do that. "

I simply think that if you're sitting there with a new Mac (and most folks in this industry, including those who are still just aspiring, do seem to use Macs), clicking a button in the Mac App Store and installing a slick self-contained app that performs the task you're interested in learning how to do is a lot less daunting than signing up for an Adobe subscription plan, running what is, let's face it, not one of the world's better executed installation procedures, and ending up with half a dozen complicated and (and I mean this in the nicest possible terms, as a regular user of Adobe products) often fairly buggy products that sometimes make very questionable UI decisions.

It's not perfect, but the car/truck analogy Jobs used to explain the relationship between the iPad and traditional PCs seems relevant. It's honestly not easy to put into words, but FCP X feels to me like it's part of the future of 'lighter', more focused computing, that emphasizes things like responsiveness and usability. As in other areas where such shifts are happening, some existing 'power users' are highly skeptical of the whole prospect. But I think it resonates with a lot of people. Sometimes less really is more, especially when you want your tools to stay out of the way of a creative process.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Shawn MillerRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 13, 2013 at 6:23:17 pm

[Chris Kenny] "I simply think that if you're sitting there with a new Mac (and most folks in this industry, including those who are still just aspiring, do seem to use Macs),"

I think you may be overestimating the proportion of Mac users in the larger creative community (senior and aspiring). If there weren't millions of folks doing creative work on Windows, there would be a lot less cross platform software.

[Chris Kenny] " clicking a button in the Mac App Store and installing a slick self-contained app that performs the task you're interested in learning how to do is a lot less daunting than signing up for an Adobe subscription plan..."

Perhaps, but (again) only if you're on a Mac. My point continues to be that companies offering cross platform solutions have a greater chance of capturing and retaining new and aspiring artists. I see this with VFX, 3D and motion graphics artists especially, they seem to be much more platform agnostic than editors and graphic designers. Although, FCPX seems to have encouraged a number of editors to seriously explore other OS, software and hardware vendors.

[Chris Kenny] "....and ending up with half a dozen complicated and (and I mean this in the nicest possible terms, as a regular user of Adobe products..."

Adobe applications are complicated compared to...

[Chris Kenny] "....often fairly buggy products that sometimes make very questionable UI decisions."

I guess this is a case of YMMV, I have multiple installations of the Creative Suite across a half dozen machines, and I've never had installation issues. All of my machines are also rock solid with very rare instances of crashing or instability (and I push these machines hard).

[Chris Kenny] "It's not perfect, but the car/truck analogy Jobs used to explain the relationship between the iPad and traditional PCs seems relevant."

What if you actually NEED a truck?

[Chris Kenny] " FCP X feels to me like it's part of the future of 'lighter', more focused computing, that emphasizes things like responsiveness and usability."

I think this is subjective, plenty of people seem to be moving away from FCPX because of usability issues. Some switchers are even reporting that Edius is the most responsive NLE that they've ever used.

[Chris Kenny] "As in other areas where such shifts are happening, some existing 'power users' are highly skeptical of the whole prospect. But I think it resonates with a lot of people. Sometimes less really is more, especially when you want your tools to stay out of the way of a creative process."

Let me ask you this then. Do you think that FCPX alone can meet the needs of an aspiring motion graphics or VFX artist?

Shawn



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Charlie AustinRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 13, 2013 at 6:38:42 pm

[Shawn Miller] "What if you actually NEED a truck? "

I hate to belabor the point, but X *is* a truck, if you need it to be. This is not to say it does everything other NLE's do. Yet. It's a moving target, for better or worse.


[Shawn Miller] "plenty of people seem to be moving away from FCPX because of usability issues. "

Really? Other than UI responsiveness on my Mac Pro, now that I've used it for a while I find it to be extremely usable. And I use it in anger as Aindreas is fond of saying. :-) I've also noticed that the X UI responsiveness on my Macbook Air is way way better than on the Mac Pro I use at work. I'd guess that most "switchers" are running on towers as well. X, not surprisingly, seems to want a newer computer to run it's best. FWIW, MC 6.5 is pretty snappy on the MB Air as well. ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~


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Shawn MillerRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 13, 2013 at 7:31:49 pm

[Charlie Austin] "[Shawn Miller] "What if you actually NEED a truck? "

I hate to belabor the point, but X *is* a truck, if you need it to be. This is not to say it does everything other NLE's do. Yet. It's a moving target, for better or worse."


I was referring to hardware... I thought that was what Chris was talking about. I don't deny that FCPX is powerful.

[Charlie Austin] "[Shawn Miller] "plenty of people seem to be moving away from FCPX because of usability issues. "

Really? Other than UI responsiveness on my Mac Pro, now that I've used it for a while I find it to be extremely usable. And I use it in anger as Aindreas is fond of saying. :-) I've also noticed that the X UI responsiveness on my Macbook Air is way way better than on the Mac Pro I use at work. I'd guess that most "switchers" are running on towers as well. X, not surprisingly, seems to want a newer computer to run it's best. FWIW, MC 6.5 is pretty snappy on the MB Air as well. ;-)"


I wasn't making the case that FCPX is not responsive. My point is that usability wise, some people find FCPX's UI less desirable than a traditional NLE. Of course, I also think this is a completely subjective preference. People should use the applications that get them where they need to go with the least amount of angst. :-)

Shawn



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Steve ConnorRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 13, 2013 at 7:33:17 pm

[Shawn Miller] " People should use the applications that get them where they need to go with the least amount of angst. :-) "

Amen to that!

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Charlie AustinRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 13, 2013 at 7:35:22 pm

[Shawn Miller] I was referring to hardware... I thought that was what Chris was talking about. I don't deny that FCPX is powerful.


Gotcha. :-)


[Shawn Miller]I wasn't making the case that FCPX is not responsive. My point is that usability wise, some people find FCPX's UI less desirable than a traditional NLE. Of course, I also think this is a completely subjective preference. People should use the applications that get them where they need to go with the least amount of angst. :-)

Shawn"

Well then, we agree. ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~


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Chris KennyRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 13, 2013 at 6:54:45 pm

[Shawn Miller] "I think you may be overestimating the proportion of Mac users in the larger creative community (senior and aspiring). If there weren't millions of folks doing creative work on Windows, there would be a lot less cross platform software."

FCP is still, according to the SCRI survey over 50% of the NLE market, despite being Mac-only. And most of the Avid deployments I come into contact with are Mac-based as well. It doesn't seem that implausible that the Mac is 75% or more of the video editing market.

[Shawn Miller] "Although, FCPX seems to have encouraged a number of editors to seriously explore other OS, software and hardware vendors."

People constantly make statements like this here, but there is, as far as I'm aware, absolutely zero systematic data to show anything of the kind. Nor does it particularly make sense — there's no reason for an NLE switch (evidence for which is also pretty thin on the ground) to entail a platform switch.

[Shawn Miller] "I guess this is a case of YMMV, I have multiple installations of the Creative Suite across a half dozen machines, and I've never had installation issues. All of my machines are also rock solid with very rare instances of crashing or instability (and I push these machines hard). "

Meh. There are entire web sites dedicated to gripes about Creative Suite. It's very, very common to hear such complaints in venues where there isn't active advocacy of Adobe's products going on.

[Shawn Miller] "What if you actually NEED a truck? "

Then you use a truck. But in any given market, a majority of people don't need that. And the analogy doesn't entirely map, because higher end video workflows often involve the use of multiple tools, so you don't necessarily need a 'heavy' tool that does everything. There's a slightly more accurate if less accessible analogy — FCP X adopts the traditional Unix philosophy of building small, focused tools that do one thing well, and performing more complicated tasks by combining them.

[Shawn Miller] "I think this is subjective, plenty of people seem to be moving away from FCPX because of usability issues. "

Again, there's no evidence for widespread switching at all. In the year or so after FCP X was released, Apple's feature/broadcast NLE market share was down all of three percentage points. And we know that as of April of last year, there were more FCP X installs than FCP installs. It is not at all impossible that Apple has actually gained share in the overall NLE market. People can't just keep using the assumption that Apple is losing users to justify their opinions about FCP X.

To address your point more directly, some people don't like the magnetic timeline. This is a matter of personal preference; it's not, strictly speaking, a 'usability' issue. There's no general usability principle that prefers tracks over clips relationships or bins over metadata, and it's not at all clear that the magnetic time e.g. makes editing tasks slower. The reverse may well be true.

[Shawn Miller] "Let me ask you this then. Do you think that FCPX alone can meet the needs of an aspiring motion graphics or VFX artist? "

No. Why should it?

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Shawn MillerRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 13, 2013 at 9:40:07 pm

[Chris Kenny] "[Shawn Miller] "I think you may be overestimating the proportion of Mac users in the larger creative community (senior and aspiring). If there weren't millions of folks doing creative work on Windows, there would be a lot less cross platform software."

FCP is still, according to the SCRI survey over 50% of the NLE market, despite being Mac-only. And most of the Avid deployments I come into contact with are Mac-based as well."


First, you'll note that I said "the larger creative community". And that was in response to your statement that "... most folks in this industry, including those who are still just aspiring, do seem to use Macs" You didn't limit your comments to editors.

[Chris Kenny]It doesn't seem that implausible that the Mac is 75% or more of the video editing market."

It does if you include all professional editors. Can you provide a link to the SCRI report, please?

[Chris Kenny] "[Shawn Miller] "Although, FCPX seems to have encouraged a number of editors to seriously explore other OS, software and hardware vendors."

People constantly make statements like this here, but there is, as far as I'm aware, absolutely zero systematic data to show anything of the kind. Nor does it particularly make sense — there's no reason for an NLE switch (evidence for which is also pretty thin on the ground) to entail a platform switch."


I didn't make an absolute statement, Chris. Just as I never said that switching NLE's necessarily means switching OS's. I said a number of editors (not all) are exploring their choices; OS, applications and hardware. As for evidence, may I suggest the following articles?

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http://magazine.creativecow.net/article/larger-than-4k-larger-than-life

"The launch of FCPX gave me the opportunity to re-evaluate my workflow. I realized that the software packages I was working with most -- Adobe's Creative Suite and MAXON's CINEMA 4D -- are cross-platform. Final Cut Pro 7 was the only thing I was using that I absolutely needed a Mac for, and when it reached the end of its life as we knew it, I would eventually need to replace FCP7 with another NLE like Premiere Pro, anyway."

http://magazine.creativecow.net/article/alphadogs-editorial-a-cross-platfor...

"I began to see a pattern with Apple products, and I didn't have a warm and fuzzy feeling about it. I saw that everyone would wait and wait for the new Mac Pro, and when it came, there was really nothing new about it."

http://magazine.creativecow.net/article/no-time-to-waste

"When Apple neglected to upgrade the Mac Pro, for me the future of workstations became only HP. It's not that HP is the only company making workstations, but of the things I've used to do this job, Apple and HP provided the products. Apple doesn't seem to want to do that anymore, but HP does. I've been very happy with HP workstations, and they clearly want to continue making them for this market."
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"[Shawn Miller] I guess this is a case of YMMV, I have multiple installations of the Creative Suite across a half dozen machines, and I've never had installation issues. All of my machines are also rock solid with very rare instances of crashing or instability (and I push these machines hard)."

[Chris Kenny] Meh. There are entire web sites dedicated to gripes about Creative Suite. It's very, very common to hear such complaints in venues where there isn't active advocacy of Adobe's products going on."

So... are you calling me a liar then? Not sure what this comment is about.

[Chris Kenny][Shawn Miller] "What if you actually NEED a truck? "

...And the analogy doesn't entirely map, because higher end video workflows often involve the use of multiple tools, so you don't necessarily need a 'heavy' tool that does everything."


Honestly, I thought you were talking about hardware, since your reference was to Steve Jobs talking about the iPad and traditional PCs. However, if you're talking about FCPX in relation to the Creative Suite, then you're making a case for the Creative Suite.

[Chris Kenny][Shawn Miller] "I think this is subjective, plenty of people seem to be moving away from FCPX because of usability issues. "

Again, there's no evidence for widespread switching at all. In the year or so after FCP X was released, Apple's feature/broadcast NLE market share was down all of three percentage points. And we know that as of April of last year, there were more FCP X installs than FCP installs. It is not at all impossible that Apple has actually gained share in the overall NLE market. People can't just keep using the assumption that Apple is losing users to justify their opinions about FCP X."


And where did I say that there was widespread switching? Are you seriously meaning to imply that no one is switching from FCPX?

[Chris Kenny]To address your point more directly, some people don't like the magnetic timeline. This is a matter of personal preference; it's not, strictly speaking, a 'usability' issue. There's no general usability principle that prefers tracks over clips relationships or bins over metadata, and it's not at all clear that the magnetic time e.g. makes editing tasks slower. The reverse may well be true."

Agree to disagree, usability is a matter personal taste. I'll say it again, people should use what allows them to be most productive. My usable, time tested timeline is your clunky, backward looking UI.

[Chris Kenny][Shawn Miller] "Let me ask you this then. Do you think that FCPX alone can meet the needs of an aspiring motion graphics or VFX artist? "

No. Why should it?"


Let's bring this whole thing back to the original point (see original comments below). Aindreas made a comment about the relative value of the Creative Cloud subscription vs. FCPX. You disagreed, implying that, for people just entering the field, FCPX was the better value. My question relates to that same question about the CCS' value proposition vs FCPX's. For the aspiring artist who wants to explore motion graphics, VFX and editing, can FCPX match the same capability/value as the Creative Cloud subscription?

[Chris Kenny][Aindreas Gallagher] "Also, given it sits currently in the production suite - PPro is, in very many cases, free at the point of delivery."

True for people who are already in the industry and already own $1500+ software packages (or already paying $50/month, I suppose). Not so much for folks just entering the field, and capturing those folks is critical for long-term success."


Shawn



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Chris KennyRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 13, 2013 at 9:54:51 pm

[Shawn Miller] "First, you'll note that I said "the larger creative community". And that was in response to your statement that "... most folks in this industry, including those who are still just aspiring, do seem to use Macs" You didn't limit your comments to editors."

Honestly, I meet a fair number of people in the industry, I see what personal machines interns and students own, etc. and it's very rare to see anything other than a Mac. Maybe it's different outside of New York or something, but unless you're talking mostly about 3D guys or something, the Mac seems to be overwhelmingly dominant.

[Shawn Miller] "I didn't make an absolute statement, Chris. Just as I never said that switching NLE's necessarily means switching OS's. I said a number of editors (not all) are exploring their choices; OS, applications and hardware. As for evidence, may I suggest the following articles?"

I was already aware that there are some people on the Internet who don't like FCP X.

[Shawn Miller] "So... are you calling me a liar then? Not sure what this comment is about."

I think you're advocating a particular position.

[Shawn Miller] "However, if you're talking about FCPX in relation to the Creative Suite, then you're making a case for the Creative Suite. "

Only if you think Jobs was making a case for traditional PCs.

[Shawn Miller] "And where did I say that there was widespread switching? Are you seriously meaning to imply that no one is switching from FCPX?"

Some people are switching. It's not clear that the FCP universe (comprising both classic FCP and X) is suffering a non-negligible net loss of users.

[Shawn Miller] "For the aspiring artist who wants to explore motion graphics, VFX and editing, can FCPX match the same capability/value as the Creative Cloud subscription? "

The question is stacking the deck.

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Shawn MillerRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 13, 2013 at 10:55:28 pm

[Chris Kenny] "[Shawn Miller] "So... are you calling me a liar then? Not sure what this comment is about."

I think you're advocating a particular position."


By sharing my experiences of installing the Creative Suite on multiple machines? What on Earth would I have to gain from lying about that?

[Chris Kenny] "[Shawn Miller] "However, if you're talking about FCPX in relation to the Creative Suite, then you're making a case for the Creative Suite. "

Only if you think Jobs was making a case for traditional PCs."


I'm just pointing out that you made a good use case for the Creative Suite (see below).

[Chris Kenny] "...because higher end video workflows often involve the use of multiple tools, so you don't necessarily need a 'heavy' tool that does everything."

[Chris Kenny] "[Shawn Miller] "For the aspiring artist who wants to explore motion graphics, VFX and editing, can FCPX match the same capability/value as the Creative Cloud subscription? "

The question is stacking the deck."


So the answer is no then. Although, your answer really should have been something like "The combination of FCPX and the Creative Cloud subscription can provide a powerful set of tools that aspiring and seasoned professionals can benefit from equally." or something like that.

Just so you understand, Chris. I'm not an advocate or a surrogate for Adobe, Microsoft, Maxon, Next Limit or anyone. I use excellent tools made by these companies, but I'm not a partisan. I think Apple makes fantastic products, and FCPX most likely has a bright future ahead of it.

Thanks,

Shawn



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Franz BieberkopfRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 14, 2013 at 12:43:40 am

[Chris Kenny] "FCP is still, according to the SCRI survey over 50% of the NLE market, despite being Mac-only. And most of the Avid deployments I come into contact with are Mac-based as well. It doesn't seem that implausible that the Mac is 75% or more of the video editing market."

Chris,

As you've insisted (more than once) on this "report" of "data" I'll provide the necessary references - this has been covered here before, as you well know - I'm surprised to see you treating these guesses as if they are real numbers.
http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/32115

I'm amazed how people will just repeat numbers as if they are data, regardless of their meaning or value.

Some highlights:
- The 54% figure you're quoting is FCP7 + FCPX.
- The comparison of "more FCPX seats" included free trials and was to FCP7 seats - significantly not including upgrades (surely the lion's share of FCP installs)
- The sample size is unknown - either 1874 or 2500 depending on which quote you want to pull, but that's the total for 6 different market segments of post (it's unknown if all segments report purchases of NLEs.)
- They extrapolate from their samples to represent "the market", but ...
- Their statistical methods are unstated and unknown.
- These fuzzy guesses are almost a year old.

If this is the source of your claim that they have "more seats of X installed than FCP" then you're reading the "data" incorrectly. If you have another source, please publish.

If you're just looking for pretend numbers to use - then use Tim's 10 million. It sounds more impressive.
http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/36504

Who is SCRI? I did a bit of a search (one name rounded back to the Cow, can't remember which) - are they a good source? I know they solicit participation in their surveys with iPad giveaways, ...

What are the FCPX numbers? Apple isn't telling. No one knows.

But really, I thought it was all about good tools for good work? Who cares how many are using it?

Franz.


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Oliver PetersRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 14, 2013 at 1:00:43 am

[Chris Kenny] "It doesn't seem that implausible that the Mac is 75% or more of the video editing market."

I'm with Franz on this one. The study is completely suspect. To say Mac is 75% of the video editing markets is completely implausible. The cross-platform suppliers (Avid, Adobe) generally admit to a 50/50 split between Mac and PC. Most broadcast installation (TV stations and networks) that are involved in news operations are almost always PC. Then factor in the the number (individuals and broadcasters) running Lightworks, Edius, Vegas, Quantel, Mistika and a few others. Or Smoke on Linux. Also think internationally, where Macs aren't necessary as strong as in LA or NYC.

I teach an annual editing class for a film program. The majority of students (some years all) come with PC and not Mac knowledge.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
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Chris KennyRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 14, 2013 at 1:37:30 am

[Oliver Peters] "The cross-platform suppliers (Avid, Adobe) generally admit to a 50/50 split between Mac and PC."

Err... you do realize that if FCP is (or at least was) half of the NLE market, and if Avid and Premiere are 50/50 Mac/Windows, that's 75% Mac right there, yes?

Also, I believe Adobe's Mac/PC revenue is about 50/50. Adobe makes products other than Creative Suite. The Mac's heavy use by creatives probably means Creative Suite is more Mac-oriented than the average Adobe product (like, say, their corporate document management tools). In other words, if it's 50/50 overall, it's almost certainly the case that more than 50% of Creative Suite sales are Mac-based. Adobe doesn't regularly release such numbers, but here's a 2007 source saying Creative Suite sales were 75% Mac — I see little reason to believe the Mac has substantially lost share in the general creative market since then.

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Oliver PetersRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 14, 2013 at 2:22:41 am

[Chris Kenny] "Err... you do realize that if FCP is (or at least was) half of the NLE market, and if Avid and Premiere are 50/50 Mac/Windows, that's 75% Mac right there, yes?"

No, you missed the point. Computer sales in the video world are roughly 50/50. So all Mac sales are no more than 50%. Some of those Macs are running ONLY Avid and some are running ONLY Premiere Pro. Naturally there's overlap with people running multiple applications. Quite a few Avid editors also have FCP installed on their Macs. A lot of editors work on a PC at work, but own a personal laptop that's a Mac. It's two units that are sold, but only 1 editor and 1 system used at any given time. How do you tally that? You simply can't add up the percentages the way you are doing. The picture isn't all that clear. Many companies have PCs for editing and Macs in their graphics departments.

[Chris Kenny] "The Mac's heavy use by creatives probably means Creative Suite is more Mac-oriented than the average Adobe product (like, say, their corporate document management tools)."

Based on what info? There are plenty of corporate, print and web users of CS that are only on PC. A quote from 2007 is ancient by this point in time.

- Oliver

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Chris KennyRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 14, 2013 at 2:43:14 am

[Oliver Peters] "Computer sales in the video world are roughly 50/50."

This number comes from where?

[Oliver Peters] "Based on what info? There are plenty of corporate, print and web users of CS that are only on PC. "

Based on the fact that Adobe's overall sales are 50/50, and you're crazy if you think e.g. corporate document management is as heavily Mac-based as Creative Suite.

[Oliver Peters] "A quote from 2007 is ancient by this point in time."

Only if there's some cognizable reason to believe Apple's share of the general creative market has been dropping over the last several years, despite the Mac's very good overall performance over that time period.

As far as the 'aspiring' market, Mac laptops have also become fairly ludicrously popular with college students — and again, you're crazy if you don't think that's higher among film students and lower among (say) accounting students.

Again, the point of comparison here is classic FCP. To believe that being Mac-only will be a significant barrier to FCP X, when it (apparently) wasn't to classic FCP, you'd need to show something like the Mac's share among relevant user groups declining. Available data, to the extent that we have it, seems to indicate the opposite.

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Oliver PetersRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 14, 2013 at 2:18:11 pm

[Chris Kenny] "This number comes from where?"

The same anecdotal comments from manufacturers as yours. ;-)

[Chris Kenny] "As far as the 'aspiring' market, Mac laptops have also become fairly ludicrously popular with college students — and again, you're crazy if you don't think that's higher among film students and lower among (say) accounting students."

Here you are referencing a very limited analysis based on intent, not actual purchases. Also only based on 3 vendors, not all vendors. I'm not saying that the cheapest ($999) MacBook hasn't been popular among students, but in reality I don't see 50% penetration among the film students I run across. The exceptions are the private film schools, where a Mac laptop (with installed Apple software) is often part of their purchased supplies. Obviously this discussion is limited to video editing and doesn't include other portions of the industry, like video game production, which is heavily skewed towards the PC world.

In any case, laptops are increasingly irrelevant. Probably too, the split between Mac OS and other OSs. New splits will emerge - iOS versus Chrome versus Android versus Windows 8. Apple's Q4 2012 numbers show a decline in Mac sales and my guess is that in a few years, the traditional laptop will be gone in favor of advanced tablets - both iPad and Surface variants. Most people who own laptops these days use them as desktop replacements.

[Chris Kenny] "To believe that being Mac-only will be a significant barrier to FCP X, when it (apparently) wasn't to classic FCP, you'd need to show something like the Mac's share among relevant user groups declining."

I don't believe I ever said anything about this being a barrier to FCP X. I do know that Apple's interpretation of the migration numbers is different than Adobe's. In fact, Apple pointed to the SCRI study a year ago and noted that where there had been migration, it was to Avid. I also personally know of some broadcast groups who no longer will accept bids with Apple products, thanks to recent history with Xserve, Xserve RAID and FCS. That may turn around, but at the enterprise level, people are open to other options.

- Oliver

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Chris KennyRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 14, 2013 at 2:34:51 pm

[Oliver Peters] "I'm not saying that the cheapest ($999) MacBook hasn't been popular among students, but in reality I don't see 50% penetration among the film students I run across."

I find this entirely baffling. I cannot recall running across a single instance of a film student using a non-Mac system in years — and again, if you combine the general data on FCP market share with Adobe's platform breakdown, it's really hard to come to the conclusion that the Mac isn't at 70%+. Maybe not in, say, 3D, but across video, graphic design, etc.

[Oliver Peters] "In any case, laptops are increasingly irrelevant. Probably too, the split between Mac OS and other OSs. New splits will emerge - iOS versus Chrome versus Android versus Windows 8. Apple's Q4 2012 numbers show a decline in Mac sales and my guess is that in a few years, the traditional laptop will be gone in favor of advanced tablets - both iPad and Surface variants. Most people who own laptops these days use them as desktop replacements."

This may be eventually (I think pro video will be one of the last holdouts on traditional desktop platforms for a while), but of course Apple is much stronger in the tablet market than the Mac ever was in the PC market, so it hardly represents an additional barrier to the adoption of software that only supports Apple platforms.

[Oliver Peters] "I don't believe I ever said anything about this being a barrier to FCP X."

That was the context of this discussion.

[Oliver Peters] "I also personally know of some broadcast groups who no longer will accept bids with Apple products, thanks to recent history with Xserve, Xserve RAID and FCS."

Perhaps, but this applies to a numerically tiny slice of the general creative market.

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Oliver PetersRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 14, 2013 at 2:44:02 pm

[Chris Kenny] "I find this entirely baffling. I cannot recall running across a single instance of a film student using a non-Mac system in years"

You need to get out more ;-) I actually run across quite a few who have come up from a high school media program that was running Premiere on PCs.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
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Chris KennyRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 14, 2013 at 1:24:08 am

[Franz Bieberkopf] "- The 54% figure you're quoting is FCP7 + FCPX."

Yes, I know.

[Franz Bieberkopf] "The comparison of "more FCPX seats" included free trials and was to FCP7 seats - significantly not including upgrades (surely the lion's share of FCP installs)"

This comes from an Apple briefing; it's not clear it's from SCRI. Apple would presumably have independent methods of determining something like this. Where are you getting the information that it includes free trials and doesn't include upgrades?

FCP X is regularly the highest grossing app on the Mac App Store (excluding Mountain Lion, since, you know, it's not technically an app), which suggests it's probably doing reasonably well.

[Franz Bieberkopf] "- The sample size is unknown - either 1874 or 2500 depending on which quote you want to pull, but that's the total for 6 different market segments of post (it's unknown if all segments report purchases of NLEs.)
- They extrapolate from their samples to represent "the market", but ...
- Their statistical methods are unstated and unknown."


These are essentially generic objections that anyone could raise about essentially any survey data made available to the public. SCRI is pretty much the standard source for survey data in this industry. Apple, for one, has been citing their data for many years — I don't think this is a situation in which there are lots of surveys out there and Apple cherry-picked the one that happened to show what they wanted.

[Franz Bieberkopf] "- These fuzzy guesses are almost a year old."

This is the main limitation — but, of course, it cuts both ways. On the one hand, there has been more time for those who planned to move away from FCP to do so. On the other hand, FCP X's feature set has been quite substantially expanded over the last year, making it a much more plausible option for many folks.

I do wish we had more data. But in the absence of anything better, this is a hell of a lot more compelling than "I don't like FCP X and here are some people on the Internet who agree with me", which is practically a standard argument around here.

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Franz BieberkopfRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 14, 2013 at 1:41:13 am

[Chris Kenny] "This comes from an Apple briefing; it's not clear it's from SCRI. Apple would presumably have independent methods of determining something like this. Where are you getting the information that it includes free trials and doesn't include upgrades?"

Chris,

What's your source?

If you're referencing the Phillip Hodgetts / Larry Jordan discussion, then you should spend some time reading their blogs (and comments, including those from Craig Seeman) as well as the discussions here after.

But if I recall it was some Apple spokesperson, in a Las Vegas hotel room "pointing to" SCRI figures. So it wasn't a claim from Apple.

It's a good marketing strategy - because if you can get some "sciencey" sounding numbers in there, people will repeat them ...

Franz.


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Oliver PetersRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 14, 2013 at 2:24:05 am

[Franz Bieberkopf] "But if I recall it was some Apple spokesperson, in a Las Vegas hotel room "pointing to" SCRI figures. So it wasn't a claim from Apple."

I was in one of those, and yes, that's the case.

- Oliver

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Aindreas GallagherRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 13, 2013 at 1:47:32 am

[Chris Kenny] "It doesn't particularly seem to me that the median user requires any plug-ins."

thats a weird answer - flat out.

[Chris Kenny] "True for people who are already in the industry and already own $1500+ software packages (or already paying $50/month, I suppose). Not so much for folks just entering the field, and capturing those folks is critical for long-term success."

yes, thats fifty bucks a month, Chris.
For the full Adobe Suite. It *boasts* a skills transferable timeline.
As opposed to - wait - tilde key FCPX negation red stop - I don't want a secondary storyline delete off the primary total joke that no one ever took seriously anywhere paradigm.

The timeline. is. a. joke.


[Chris Kenny] "You can achieve something not too different in FCP X's trim tool using the 'extend edit' (shift-x) command, plus you also have the option of skimming the clips on both sides of the edit (and just clicking to trim). The trim tool, like that tool, can also be quickly advanced from one edit point to the next using up/down arrows."

no. not equivalent.

[Chris Kenny] "FCP X just prefers keyframing on the canvas for things like transforming. I'm not sure this is 'improper' so much as merely different — and a lot more sensible, objectively. Why adjust one-dimmentional keyframes to control 2D movement? Or were you talking about some other issue?
"


no. It's an idiotic keyframing system. It is hard to take you seriously.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chris KennyRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 13, 2013 at 2:25:52 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "no. It's an idiotic keyframing system. It is hard to take you seriously."

You're writing topic sentences and not supporting them. It is hard to take you seriously.

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David PowellRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 13, 2013 at 3:14:25 am

If the P-pro trim tools anything like Avid's, FCPX's is absolutely not equivalent. There is nothing close to dynamic trimming and Extend Edit only share name with what it means in Avid. The magnetic timeline makes an equivalent impossible because the Timeline indicator does not respond to track levels (since there aren't any tracks). This why you have to click on an edit point, set the position of the Timeline indicator, then hit shift X to do extend edit. Avid style extend means wherever the timeline indicator is you hit one command and the edit rolls there. Its a HUGE difference.

I can't believe that anyone who would compare dynamic/rock n roll trimming to trimming in X has actually used either of the former.


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Chris KennyRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 13, 2013 at 3:49:58 am

[David Powell] "I can't believe that anyone who would compare dynamic/rock n roll trimming to trimming in X has actually used either of the former."

I'm not an Avid editor, really. My experience with it is more with workflow than creative editing. If I understand what you're describing, you're saying there's a command that lets you move an edit point to the playhead location without selecting which edit point to move? And it just... what, moves the closest one? I guess that's handy. But it doesn't sound like the Premiere feature in question, and I'm not sure why it wouldn't in principle work, with a bit of tweaking, on a magnetic timeline.

It's also worth noting you don't have to click anything to select one side or the other of an edit point in FCP X. Park the playhead on the edit point, and hit [ or ]. Once one or the other is selected, you can switch between them with these keys without returning the playhead to the edit point.

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David PowellRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 13, 2013 at 4:57:26 am

I wasn't meaning to argue wich method is superior, I was just pointing out that there is no equivalent. An Avid extend pulls the edit point to the playhead without having to select the edit point. And of course you can do it on whichever track you are patched to. The reason it won't work on X is that there is no way to control which layer is responding to the playhead. Also you are restricted to the primary storyline for roll edits (unless I am mistaken please correct me).

As for rock n roll (I'm guessing thats PP's dynamic trimming?) there is also no equivalent. FCP 7 had a lousy version of dynamic trimming that noone ever used. In Avid and Premiere 6 you can trim the edit with JKL. Also in Avid (not sure in Premiere) one stroke selects the edit and trim mode. In X you must go next edit to get to the proper spot and then enter trim mode with [].

Again, not saying one is better than the other, though I clearly have my preference. Just pointing out that they are not equivalent.


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Neil GoodmanRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 13, 2013 at 6:41:56 am

[Chris Kenny] "[David Powell] "I can't believe that anyone who would compare dynamic/rock n roll trimming to trimming in X has actually used either of the former."

I'm not an Avid editor, really. My experience with it is more with workflow than creative editing. If I understand what you're describing, you're saying there's a command that lets you move an edit point to the playhead location without selecting which edit point to move? And it just... what, moves the closest one? I guess that's handy. But it doesn't sound like the Premiere feature in question, and I'm not sure why it wouldn't in principle work, with a bit of tweaking, on a magnetic timeline.

It's also worth noting you don't have to click anything to select one side or the other of an edit point in FCP X. Park the playhead on the edit point, and hit [ or ]. Once one or the other is selected, you can switch between them with these keys without returning the playhead to the edit point."


Trimming in X is one of its worst features, not like it was any good really in FCP 7 but thats one area they didnt improve on at all with X and i believe theyve backed themselves into a corner with the trackless timeline. I havent gotten a chance to get into PPRO 6 yet but if they copied Avids trim mode than all the better because it really is an elegant solution and you cant really argue its value. You can get in, make complicated trims across different tracks, slip, slide, and extend on stacks of video/audio and never have to touch the mouse.

Neil Goodman: Editor of New Media Production - NBC/Universal


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Chris KennyRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 13, 2013 at 2:02:12 pm

[Neil Goodman] "Trimming in X is one of its worst features, not like it was any good really in FCP 7 but thats one area they didnt improve on at all with X and i believe theyve backed themselves into a corner with the trackless timeline. I havent gotten a chance to get into PPRO 6 yet but if they copied Avids trim mode than all the better because it really is an elegant solution and you cant really argue its value. You can get in, make complicated trims across different tracks, slip, slide, and extend on stacks of video/audio and never have to touch the mouse."

I find trimming X to be a fair bit better than in 7, and I think statements to the effect that it's objectively worse than these other schemes are a little hard to buy. Keyboard control is not necessarily faster even if it feels that way — you have to actually measure to draw such conclusions. And the fact that FCP X's trim tool lets you easily scrub the clips (including the presently unused segments of them) on both sides of an edit point before making an edit is a rather powerful feature.

I'm also really not quite sure why people keep insisting more keyboard-oriented trim features are somehow prevented by the magnetic timeline. There appears to be no real connection. Some details might have to be tweaked, of course.

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Aindreas GallagherRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 13, 2013 at 3:12:00 pm

TL:DR - I like FCPX trimming its better than 7, I don't care what you say, I'm not primarily an editor, I don't understand how keyboard muscle memory works in this context, I've never used dynamic trimming anyway, or Avid.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Neil GoodmanRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 13, 2013 at 6:13:13 pm

I cant imagine its any faster with a mouse and it takesyou longer to click and drag to be exact. Having admitted your not familiar with Dynamic trimming your not really in a position to.comapre the two. Its almost night and day..

Neil Goodman: Editor of New Media Production - NBC/Universal


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Chris KennyRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 13, 2013 at 7:05:40 pm

[Neil Goodman] "I cant imagine its any faster with a mouse and it takesyou longer to click and drag to be exact. Having admitted your not familiar with Dynamic trimming your not really in a position to.comapre the two. Its almost night and day.."

It's entirely possible that you're right, but unless you've measured it, you really don't know. You literally cannot determine which of two (small) UI interactions is faster via your own subjective experience. Your brain lies to you. This is not really a controversial opinion in the UX world.

For a very clear illustration of this, back when desktop computing platforms were still a big part of what people debated in platform wars, it was very common for Windows fans — who had presumably used Macs as well — to argue that in-window menu bars were superior because you didn't have to move the mouse as far. In reality the Mac's backstopped menu bar is, in testing dramatically faster. This is invisible in subjective experience — people's reasoning about what should be faster combines with the brain's inability to accurately measure small timespans, to cause people to experience what they expect, rather than what the clock shows.

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David LawrenceRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 13, 2013 at 9:08:28 pm

[Chris Kenny] "it's entirely possible that you're right, but unless you've measured it, you really don't know. You literally cannot determine which of two (small) UI interactions is faster via your own subjective experience. Your brain lies to you. This is not really a controversial opinion in the UX world."

The speed benefits of dynamic trimming have nothing to do with measured performance. Dynamic/rock 'n roll trimming allows the editor to make decisions in realtime, during playback, without ever touching the mouse.

Advanced editors don't cut by looking, they cut entirely by feel, looping playback and trimming until the cut feels right without ever lifting their fingers from the keyboard.

This, and rock-solid media management/sharing is why AVID remains the standard for Hollywood and large-scale productions. Premiere Pro CS6 has already caught up with trimming. As soon as Adobe works out media management, you can be sure Premiere will be a strong contender for the new industry standard bearer.

The best editors cut by feel, not by look. An edit is a time-based event and the most efficient way find that perfect cut is in time. There is simply no equivalent in FCPX.

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Chris KennyRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 13, 2013 at 9:33:35 pm

[David Lawrence] "The speed benefits of dynamic trimming have nothing to do with measured performance. Dynamic/rock 'n roll trimming allows the editor to make decisions in realtime, during playback, without ever touching the mouse.

Advanced editors don't cut by looking, they cut entirely by feel, looping playback and trimming until the cut feels right without ever lifting their fingers from the keyboard."


Look, I'm not a professional full-time creative editor, but I'm not a rube. You're seriously overselling this. The idea that most edits are made during live playback — and apparently Apple is as ignorant as I am about this fact — is a little implausible. You're also pushing this feature as a critical advantage when classic FCP — which captured more than 50% of the 'pro' market, as measured by SCRI's survey — never really had this either. Trimming in FCP X is pretty unambiguously better than it was in FCP 7.

Plus, the demo video of Premiere that started this subthread does not actually appear to show the Avid behavior you're describing.

--
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Charlie AustinRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 13, 2013 at 9:41:37 pm

[Chris Kenny] "[David Lawrence] "The speed benefits of dynamic trimming have nothing to do with measured performance. Dynamic/rock 'n roll trimming allows the editor to make decisions in realtime, during playback, without ever touching the mouse.

Advanced editors don't cut by looking, they cut entirely by feel, looping playback and trimming until the cut feels right without ever lifting their fingers from the keyboard."

Look, I'm not a professional full-time creative editor...


I am, and I found David's comments to be highly subjective at best, but mostly incredibly condescending. There are generations of "the best... advanced" film editors who would probably disagree.

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David LawrenceRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 15, 2013 at 12:21:57 am

[Charlie Austin] "I am, and I found David's comments to be highly subjective at best, but mostly incredibly condescending. There are generations of "the best... advanced" film editors who would probably disagree."

No condescension intended. We agree they're just tools. It's great we all have more choices and I respect everyone's choice. I just find it amusing when the folks who freely admit they don't know what they don't know chime in as the voice of authority around here. It's fun pushing back. Feel free to disagree anytime. It's all good.

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Charlie AustinRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 15, 2013 at 12:47:57 am

[David Lawrence] "It's fun pushing back. Feel free to disagree anytime. It's all good."

Fair enough. :-)

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Craig SeemanRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 13, 2013 at 9:47:58 pm

As someone who spent a decade plus on Avid before spending a decade on FCP and now using X, FCP7 still couldn't touch Avid's trimming from 10 years earlier.

I'd agree with Chris that FCPX trimming is very far ahead of FCP7 although not up to the immense power of Avid (and I haven't used Avid in years). FCPX is much closer though. PixelCorp did a trimming comparison between FCPX and Avid. They felt that with a few more tweaks FCPX trimming could be competitive. This was during a PixelCorp live stream.

It's nearly an hour and a half. Keep in mind the episode is now over a year old so things may have changed.








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Shawn MillerRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 13, 2013 at 9:50:12 pm

[Chris Kenny] "Plus, the demo video of Premiere that started this subthread does not actually appear to show the Avid behavior you're describing."

It's just how the demo was done - it could have been done without touching the mouse.


Shawn



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TImothy AuldRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 13, 2013 at 11:01:37 pm

[Chris Kenny] "The idea that most edits are made during live playback — and apparently Apple is as ignorant as I am about this fact — is a little implausible."


That is precisely how I edit whenever possible and how most others I know edit. It was the thing I missed most about Avid when working with FCP 7. Dynamic trimming saves a great deal of time and keystrokes. As to Apple being ignorant...

Tim


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David LawrenceRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 14, 2013 at 9:27:33 pm

[Chris Kenny] "You're seriously overselling this. "

Nope. There's a reason why rock 'n roll trim tools are considered Avid's crown jewels by the film industry. It's also a big factor in why the industry has been resistant to change. True, enterprise and large commercial post is generally slow to embrace new technologies, but up to now, there's been no viable alternative NLE with comparable trimming power. Pr CS6 is the first.

[Chris Kenny] "The idea that most edits are made during live playback — and apparently Apple is as ignorant as I am about this fact — is a little implausible."

I never said such a thing. We're talking about trimming - the fine, detail work - and trim tools.

Why do high-end colorists use control surfaces? Are you saying they'd be just as efficient if they were limited to working with a mouse and onscreen UI?

JKL dynamic trimming turns the keyboard into a control surface for trimming. It enables editors to manipulate and judge pacing and feel, on-the-fly in real time. The benefits are major and real.

BTW, I don't think Apple is ignorant, but I do think they have their own agenda and that agenda has everything to do with Apple, not industry standards or the needs of top-tier users.

[Chris Kenny] "You're also pushing this feature as a critical advantage when classic FCP — which captured more than 50% of the 'pro' market, as measured by SCRI's survey — never really had this either. Trimming in FCP X is pretty unambiguously better than it was in FCP 7."

Actually, FCP Legacy does have dynamic, keyboard trimming. I used the software for years before I discovered it. When in trim mode, pretty much everything is keyboard controllable. The problem is it switches to a modal window rather than operating on the timeline itself. And you sometimes do have to grab the mouse. But the basics are definitely there. Is it as good as Avid? No. It's not really as flexible. But I've demoed it plenty of times to Avid editors who were surprised it was even possible.

It's like subframe audio editing. A lot of folks around here claimed you couldn't do that in Legacy either. You can. Sometimes it pays to RTFM. I agree FCPX has some nice trimming features. I disagree it's unambiguously better than Legacy.

[Chris Kenny] "Plus, the demo video of Premiere that started this subthread does not actually appear to show the Avid behavior you're describing."

It's not in that particular demo, but it's entirely possible.

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Charlie AustinRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 14, 2013 at 10:10:37 pm

[David Lawrence] "It's like subframe audio editing. A lot of folks around here claimed you couldn't do that in Legacy either. You can. Sometimes it pays to RTFM. I agree FCPX has some nice trimming features. I disagree it's unambiguously better than Legacy."

FWIW, in addition to keyframing, you can also slip audio tracks by subframes in FCP 7. However, you do need to go to the viewer to do it. The great thing about X s you can do it in the timeline, which is really nice. In this instance X really is unambiguously better than Legacy. Also FWIW, I rarely use the mouse to trim in X. Well, other than key framing and dragging fade handles... things like that. Also, contrary to popular belief, you can select, and trim edits on multiple (connected) clips at once if the cuts are on the same frame....

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David LawrenceRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 15, 2013 at 12:31:20 am

[Charlie Austin] "FWIW, in addition to keyframing, you can also slip audio tracks by subframes in FCP 7. However, you do need to go to the viewer to do it."

Yep, cool feature!

[Charlie Austin] "The great thing about X s you can do it in the timeline, which is really nice. In this instance X really is unambiguously better than Legacy."

I unambiguously agree. ;)

[Charlie Austin] "Also FWIW, I rarely use the mouse to trim in X. Well, other than key framing and dragging fade handles... things like that. Also, contrary to popular belief, you can select, and trim edits on multiple (connected) clips at once if the cuts are on the same frame...."

Cool. It's all about whatever works.

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Aindreas GallagherRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 15, 2013 at 9:25:04 pm

[David Lawrence] "JKL dynamic trimming turns the keyboard into a control surface for trimming. It enables editors to manipulate and judge pacing and feel, on-the-fly in real time. The benefits are major and real.
"


fear not - Chris will carefully avoid that one.

Also, er sorry for not actually putting up a better JKL trim example - i picked a google quickie - I do actually have a fairly revelatory run through I used to familiarise myself initially - buried somewhere in delicious bookmarks...

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jok DanielRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 18, 2013 at 10:26:21 am

Hi all, longtime lurker/first time poster here.

I think David is right. I edit primarily on Avid, but I like to keep an eye on developments in the other camps. And Premiere's new trim tools have definitely made me sit up and take notice.

What a lot of people don't realize is that the problems that the magnetic timeline is designed to solve hardly even exist in other NLE:s. Clip collisions, for instance, are almost never a problem on Avid or other NLE:s built around solid trim tools. Once you get used to setting up trims across multiple tracks (and in multiple directions), you can do in one operation what used to take several steps in FCP Legacy. There's no need to "open up space" or play "track tetris" - tracks ripple at the exact points I want them to, making space and/or extending clips wherever needed. And it's all real time, which means I can make my edit decisions while looking at the video monitor, and not the little rectangles in the timeline.

The poor trim tools are the number one reason I always disliked editing in Legacy, and while the magnetic timeline has some clever solutions to some of Legacy's shortcomings, I still prefer the control, precision and feedback that well implemented trimming offers. Sure, Apple's drag-and-drop style editing is very approachable even to new users. Advanced trimming techniques less so. But if you spend all day, every day in front of the machine, that should be of little consequence.

If you're interested in a more "trim centric" style of editing check out Lightworks, arguably the king of trimming.


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Charlie AustinRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 18, 2013 at 6:10:42 pm

[Jok Daniel] "What a lot of people don't realize is that the problems that the magnetic timeline is designed to solve hardly even exist in other NLE:s. Clip collisions, for instance, are almost never a problem on Avid or other NLE:s built around solid trim tools. Once you get used to setting up trims across multiple tracks (and in multiple directions), you can do in one operation what used to take several steps in FCP Legacy. There's no need to "open up space" or play "track tetris" - tracks ripple at the exact points I want them to, making space and/or extending clips wherever needed. And it's all real time, which means I can make my edit decisions while looking at the video monitor, and not the little rectangles in the timeline."

I may be splitting hairs here, but clip collisions do exist on other NLE's, and the trim tools that have eveloved over the years are the workaround to prevent them. X solves it differently, that's all. The implementation isn't perfect, but what solution is? your entire description above mostly describes FCP X as well. Just replace "setting up trims" with "checking your connections"

If you prefer the Avid style tools, that's cool. I'm not trying to say that X is the best thing ever, just that it can work with complicated edits quite well. I spend all day every day in front of the machine too, and to me, the more the machine can do for me, the better. That's the whole reason for NLE's at all right? Otherwise we'd all be sitting at flatbeds cutting film and and scraping mag. ;-)

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Jeremy GarchowRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 13, 2013 at 9:36:44 pm

[David Lawrence] "The best editors cut by feel, not by look. An edit is a time-based event and the most efficient way find that perfect cut is in time. There is simply no equivalent in FCPX."

I'm with Chris, there are tools. They might not be as good as Avid's or Freddie Mercury's Rock and Roll Trimming, but there are ways to trim, in real time while looping in FCPX (shift-/).

I know it's not perfect, and it is also limited, but there's the precision editor as well.

It could be better in FCPX, yes, other NLEs are better, but it's not like there's nothing.

I find trimming to be better in FCPX than in FCP7 as FCP7's "dynamic trimming" functions weren't very good either.

Plus, I seem to experience editors that don't need the speed do not muck with keyboard shortcuts, it is all mouse all the time and all menus all the time.

Editors that need to be fast use the shortcuts.

It has nothing to do with ability.


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Neil GoodmanRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 13, 2013 at 10:34:53 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Plus, I seem to experience editors that don't need the speed do not muck with keyboard shortcuts, it is all mouse all the time and all menus all the time.

Editors that need to be fast use the shortcuts.

It has nothing to do with ability.
"



I see people work this way too, whatever works for you in the long run. Using the key commands makes editing alot more fun for me, and makes me feel like im in control and not simply just clicking about on a computer screen.

If i was on the client side, and saw someone mousing and using menus all day, id probably look elsewhere on the next project to save time and money.

Can you trim more than edit point at once in FCP X? i didnt come across that in the ripple training?

Neil Goodman: Editor of New Media Production - NBC/Universal


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Jeremy GarchowRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 13, 2013 at 11:09:04 pm

[Neil Goodman] "Can you trim more than edit point at once in FCP X? i didnt come across that in the ripple training?"

You cannot.


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David LawrenceRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 15, 2013 at 1:11:26 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "It could be better in FCPX, yes, other NLEs are better, but it's not like there's nothing."

Not saying there's nothing, just that there's nothing equivalent.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Plus, I seem to experience editors that don't need the speed do not muck with keyboard shortcuts, it is all mouse all the time and all menus all the time.

Editors that need to be fast use the shortcuts."


Speed is one factor but I was talking more about a specific approach to trimming. I use the mouse all the time. I switch to the keyboard to trim because it's the only way I can get the control, precision, and realtime feedback I need.

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Jeremy GarchowRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 15, 2013 at 4:56:44 am

[David Lawrence] "Not saying there's nothing, just that there's nothing equivalent. "

Well, is there a tool just like Avid or, now Pr? No.

There's the precision editior, if thats your bag, and a big list of shortcuts. The timeline itself is dynamic.

Did you really use the dynamic otrim window in fcp7?


[David Lawrence] "
Speed is one factor but I was talking more about a specific approach to trimming. I use the mouse all the time. I switch to the keyboard to trim because it's the only way I can get the control, precision, and realtime feedback I need."


You can cut by feel with play and cut, you know, like the old days.

You don't, necessarily, need a dynamic trimmer to be a better editor, that's all I'm saying. I was going against the platitudes of "the best" editors using dynamic trimming.

There are other ways to cut by feel using nothing but super basic input controls.


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Herb SevushRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 15, 2013 at 4:41:01 pm

Hope you don't mind me jumping in to offer my perspective.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Did you really use the dynamic trim window in fcp7?"

Never

[Jeremy Garchow] "You can cut by feel with play and cut, you know, like the old days. You don't, necessarily, need a dynamic trimmer to be a better editor, that's all I'm saying. I was going against the platitudes of "the best" editors using dynamic trimming."

I've never used it, didn't care that PPro copied it. Perhaps that was why I was somewhat underwhelmed with PPro 6. Not saying I wouldn't grow to like it if I used an NLE that featured it, but for me it's simply another case of a solution to a problem I wasn't having.

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David LawrenceRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 16, 2013 at 10:11:24 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Well, is there a tool just like Avid or, now Pr? No. "

True, but I'm talking specifically about the trim tools. In Hollywood, Avid trim tools are the gold standard but with Pr CS6, Adobe has caught up. Avid editors I've talked to are impressed and paying attention.

[Jeremy Garchow] "There's the precision editior, if thats your bag, and a big list of shortcuts. The timeline itself is dynamic. "

If the trim tools in FCPX are so much better than Legacy, why is the "Precision Editor" even necessary? What specific problem does it solve? Do you use it much?

[Jeremy Garchow] "Did you really use the dynamic otrim window in fcp7?"

Once I discovered how it worked, absolutely. For every cut? Of course not -- most of the time I still use the mouse. But for precise, detail trimming where a single frame makes a difference in feel, it's great.

[Jeremy Garchow] "You don't, necessarily, need a dynamic trimmer to be a better editor, that's all I'm saying. I was going against the platitudes of "the best" editors using dynamic trimming. "

Agreed. I was just stating my experience and observations and pushing back against Chris's pronouncements about dynamic trim tools. Look, I do color correction on every single piece I work on, but it's not my main job or expertise. There's a reason I don't hang out in the DaVinci forums telling the experts there the future of their tools and workflows.

My point is that dynamic trim tools are popular with A-list editors for a reason. I didn't fully appreciate why until I started using them myself. My personal experience is that using them literally changed my perception as an editor. I could feel myself working at a different level and could see the better results in my finished work. That's just me. It doesn't mean it's true for everyone or that other types of tools can't do this as well. As always, YMMV.

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Jeremy GarchowRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 17, 2013 at 4:21:21 am

[David Lawrence] "True, but I'm talking specifically about the trim tools."

Wait. You are???

Just kidding, yes, I am fully aware that we are talking about trim tools.

[David Lawrence] "Avid editors I've talked to are impressed and paying attention. "

So they'd switch an entire system for a trim tool? Just curious.

[David Lawrence] "If the trim tools in FCPX are so much better than Legacy, why is the "Precision Editor" even necessary? What specific problem does it solve? Do you use it much? "

I did not use the 'dynamic trimming' in FCP7, I don't use the Precision Editor in FCPX. I use the keyboard shortcut trim tools in FCPX, along with the magnetic timeline specifically the ] [ ' ; . , play stop rewind skim mouse, also adding an option or shift key to some of those.

In FCP7, I'd double click the clip to load it in the viewer from the timeline (so that the clip has the little sprocket marks), play, and then hit out and the clip in the timeline would have the adjusted out (or in).

I would have to be careful and play track tetris before hand as FCP7 hates when I try and override clips due to the clip collision rules. If I don't, it tells me there's a media limit. I try and tell it, it has its limits. It doesn't respond, so I hit the out button a bunch of time to sound the warning bleep over and over in rapid succession. It makes me feel better, and then I go play track tetris and all is right with the world.

There is no equivalent for this in X either, which is really too bad as the magnetic non-collide rules would really help me out here.

So, I suffer for the art and deal with it.

Jeremy


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Steve ConnorRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 17, 2013 at 11:17:46 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "I don't use the Precision Editor in FCPX. I use the keyboard shortcut trim tools in FCPX, along with the magnetic timeline specifically the ] [ ' ; . , play stop rewind skim mouse, also adding an option or shift key to some of those."

Me too, dynamic trimming is useful, but when using FCPX with keyboard shortcuts it's not that different and it certainly isn't different enough to change the quality of my work.

As David said though YMMV

Steve Connor
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David LawrenceRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 18, 2013 at 6:47:32 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "So they'd switch an entire system for a trim tool? Just curious."

Not for the trim tool alone, but it's a bigger deal than I think some people realize. Premiere still has a way to go but everything's moving in the right direction. Once the big, well known issues are worked out, my gut says a lot of Avid editors will be *very* interested. From a few informal conversations with friends in LA, I get the sense everyone's paying close attention to Adobe's next move. I'm very curious to hear what DRW has to say from his year in the trenches.

[Jeremy Garchow] "I did not use the 'dynamic trimming' in FCP7, I don't use the Precision Editor in FCPX. I use the keyboard shortcut trim tools in FCPX, along with the magnetic timeline specifically the ] [ ' ; . , play stop rewind skim mouse, also adding an option or shift key to some of those."

Interesting that no one really seems to use the PE. Would love to hear from someone who does. I really am curious what people think it's good for.

[Jeremy Garchow] "In FCP7, I'd double click the clip to load it in the viewer from the timeline (so that the clip has the little sprocket marks), play, and then hit out and the clip in the timeline would have the adjusted out (or in).

I would have to be careful and play track tetris before hand as FCP7 hates when I try and override clips due to the clip collision rules. If I don't, it tells me there's a media limit. I try and tell it, it has its limits. It doesn't respond, so I hit the out button a bunch of time to sound the warning bleep over and over in rapid succession. It makes me feel better, and then I go play track tetris and all is right with the world."


Wait, you do your trimming in FCP7 in the viewer? Really? I'm surprised. I'm sure you know the other ways. Why not on the timeline like you're doing now in X?

I never trim in the viewer. I sometimes use it to set up IO points before adding a clip to the timeline, but I'm more likely to just drop a clip onto the timeline and set IO there. Most often, I use viewer to manipulate effects or motion settings, or do super-precise subframe audio key framing. I think the viewer kinda sucks for trimming so I trim directly in the timeline or in trim mode when I need to tweak critical pacing. If you're doing most of your trimming in the viewer, I understand why you might be underwhelmed by the Legacy's trim tools.

Maybe I'm weird or just used to it, but track Tetris isn't something I even think about. I do it when needed before trimming and rarely get any clip collision warnings. It's just part of the process. I'm with Aindreas on this. I like my fragile timeline and I like deciding for myself what to open up and move.

On a complex timeline like Charlie's example, I'm not sure how much you really gain in FCPX. Instead of playing Tetris, you have to think about clip connection points. You may have to unscramble the vertical stacking of connected clips and/or re-trim audio. You still have to think about whether anything's messed up downstream outside the window view. It's still work. I prefer doing the set-up work first, knowing I'm making every decision, rather than figuring out what the timeline just did to my edit and fixing it afterwards.

[Jeremy Garchow] "There is no equivalent for this in X either, which is really too bad as the magnetic non-collide rules would really help me out here."

So in X, clip collisions can still happen when trimming? Yikes!

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Charlie AustinRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 18, 2013 at 5:42:45 pm

[David Lawrence] "On a complex timeline like Charlie's example, I'm not sure how much you really gain in FCPX. Instead of playing Tetris, you have to think about clip connection points. You may have to unscramble the vertical stacking of connected clips and/or re-trim audio. You still have to think about whether anything's messed up downstream outside the window view. It's still work. I prefer doing the set-up work first, knowing I'm making every decision, rather than figuring out what the timeline just did to my edit and fixing it afterwards.

True, but not to the extent you lay out above. You need to check the connections to the clip on either side of the edit you're about to make, maybe some post edit fine trimming, but that's about it. Not saying it's *no* work, but you can do the setup work first and anything outside your view will be just fine. I mean, It's not uncommon to miss a track trim setting on MC as well, especially with a sequence with lots of tracks. X is just like any other NLE in the sense that, if you know your way around the timeline, everything does just what you want it to. The timeline won't screw anything up on its own. :-)

[Jeremy Garchow] "There is no equivalent for this in X either, which is really too bad as the magnetic non-collide rules would really help me out here."

So in X, clip collisions can still happen when trimming? Yikes!"

Not sure what the reference here is to but no, they can't.

-------------------------------------------------------------


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Jeremy GarchowRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 19, 2013 at 3:38:09 am

[David Lawrence] "Wait, you do your trimming in FCP7 in the viewer? Really? I'm surprised. I'm sure you know the other ways. Why not on the timeline like you're doing now in X?"

It depends. If I am adjusting frames, I do it in the timeline, but if I need more than a coule of frame adjustments and need to watch a clip beyond the out point, loading in the viewer works.

I don't do all my trimming in the viewer.


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Jeremy GarchowRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 19, 2013 at 3:40:33 am

[David Lawrence] "I never trim in the viewer. I sometimes use it to set up IO points before adding a clip to the timeline, but I'm more likely to just drop a clip onto the timeline and set IO there. Most often, I use viewer to manipulate effects or motion settings, or do super-precise subframe audio key framing. I think the viewer kinda sucks for trimming so I trim directly in the timeline or in trim mode when I need to tweak critical pacing. If you're doing most of your trimming in the viewer, I understand why you might be underwhelmed by the Legacy's trim tools."

Did you understand what I was saying in that post? Maybe I didn't explain clearly enough.



[David Lawrence] "So in X, clip collisions can still happen when trimming? Yikes!"

No. That's not what I was saying. I'd have to show you what I meant for trimming in the viewer. It's a direct relationship to the timeline.


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David LawrenceRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 19, 2013 at 3:48:06 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Did you understand what I was saying in that post? Maybe I didn't explain clearly enough."

Maybe not.

[Jeremy Garchow] "In FCP7, I'd double click the clip to load it in the viewer from the timeline (so that the clip has the little sprocket marks), play, and then hit out and the clip in the timeline would have the adjusted out (or in)."

To me this reads like you normally trim in the viewer. Am I missing something?

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Jeremy GarchowRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 19, 2013 at 4:05:55 am

[David Lawrence] "To me this reads like you normally trim in the viewer. Am I missing something?
"


We were talking about cutting by feel and how dynamic trimming may play a role in that.

In 7, there's a clip already in the timeline. I want to adjust the out point by more than a few frames.

I load the clip from the timeline, watch the clip, hit out. That clip in the timeline is now longer.

I don't do this for frames, I do this for larger adjustments.


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David LawrenceRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 19, 2013 at 4:56:01 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "We were talking about cutting by feel and how dynamic trimming may play a role in that.

In 7, there's a clip already in the timeline. I want to adjust the out point by more than a few frames.

I load the clip from the timeline, watch the clip, hit out. That clip in the timeline is now longer.

I don't do this for frames, I do this for larger adjustments."


I understand but I'm still not following. It seems like more work and less context. What does this buy you that's better than trimming directly in the timeline or in trim mode?

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Jeremy GarchowRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 19, 2013 at 2:11:43 pm

[David Lawrence] "I understand but I'm still not following. It seems like more work and less context. What does this buy you that's better than trimming directly in the timeline or in trim mode?"

Because I can't play a clip beyond the outpoint in the timeline.

Loading in to the viewer from the timeline is trimming in the timeline, essentially, just one clip at a time.

I do trim on the timeline as well.


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Kevin MonahanRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 13, 2013 at 12:42:35 am

[Chris Kenny] "It completely depends on what kinds of projects you're working on. For a lot of narrative work it's pretty easy to ignore, honestly. "

Check out the opinions of the Sundance Festival's feature film directors and editors: http://blogs.adobe.com/creativelayer/adobe-sundance-2013-recap/

A number of features at the festival were edited in Premiere Pro.

Kevin Monahan
Sr. Content and Community Lead
Adobe After Effects
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Adobe Systems, Inc.
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Jeremy GarchowRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 12, 2013 at 11:01:29 pm

[Chris Kenny] "For the record, we can handle them just fine. In fact, an X-to-Resolve workflow is our standard choice for internal projects now."

I really really really want to make a super snarky remark here, that would be funny only to certain people.

But I'll refrain knowing full well that this is some sort of allusion;

to the land of confusion.

There's not...much....love....to go 'round.

Now I'm singing.


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Steve ConnorRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 12, 2013 at 11:04:04 pm

Go on Jeremy, out with it!

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Jeremy GarchowRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 13, 2013 at 12:14:50 am

[Steve Connor] "Go on Jeremy, out with it!"

I was going to jokingly make fun of a professional outfit using air-quoted "unprofessional" tools for professional work, knowing full well the level of professionalism that is required to make such a professional endeavor a reality, and then I thought, it's not very professional of me even though I was going to write it up with the ever present professional's cynicism.

Or something like that.


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Keith KobyRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 12, 2013 at 9:49:39 pm

Dude! Because I viewed those poll results, I was chosen as a possible winner for a mac book air!!!!


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Jeremy GarchowRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 12, 2013 at 10:34:27 pm

[Keith Koby] "Dude! Because I viewed those poll results, I was chosen as a possible winner for a mac book air!!!!"

Wait. I thought I was the winner??????


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Craig SeemanRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 13, 2013 at 6:05:49 am

Ahh, so the winner gets a system they can use FCPX on.



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Charlie AustinRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 13, 2013 at 6:09:07 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Ahh, so the winner gets a system they can use FCPX on."

LOL... Hey, I'm running MC 6.5 on a MB Air too, and I can run Pr on it as well.

As an aside... Just for giggles I DL'd trials of both MC and Pr. Hadn't cut on Avid in a while, and never really used Pr, I figured I'd see where they were at. Gotta stay current right? ;-)

MC has been easier for me to get back into the swing of, having used it for years in the past. I like the smart tools... And I realized FCP X Storyline editing feels very MC-like. Honestly... X is more like MC than Pr in a lot of ways.

Pr is way better than I remembered it being, based on my limited past experience. Very similar to FCP 7, for good or ill. Entirely too many buttons and disclosure triangles etc for my taste. This is true of all of 'em I guess, 7, MC, Pr...

The other thing those all have is tracks. Did I mentionI really hate tracks now? Having gotten fairly proficient cutting in X, I feel hamstrung on "traditional" NLE's. Oh well...

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~


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Oliver PetersRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 14, 2013 at 8:24:57 pm

And speaking of Premiere Pro, these guys are an Avid DS house:

http://tv.adobe.com/watch/customer-stories-video-film-and-audio/kappa-studi...

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Shawn MillerRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 14, 2013 at 9:02:23 pm

[Oliver Peters] "And speaking of Premiere Pro, these guys are an Avid DS house:

http://tv.adobe.com/watch/customer-stories-video-film-and-audio/kappa-studi....."


That was just cool... I always love to see people do amazing work with relatively simple, off the shelf tools. 1.3 billion views online... wow.

Shawn



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Chris HarlanRe: An NLE change from FCP poll results
by on Feb 18, 2013 at 6:53:57 pm

I wonder if the little Apple moment inside the video was specifically chosen for the piece.


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