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FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use

COW Forums : Apple FCPX or Not: The Debate

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Chad BrewerFCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 30, 2013 at 8:57:47 am

I've read everything in this forum you all have written and debated about since the forum's inception. I have come to respect the opinions and experiences of all voiced here. Really. (I have quite an article about FCP7/X from a broadcasting standpoint I hope to get out there)

I work at the only major broadcast/conversion/duplication/mastering house that exists between Los Angeles and New York City. We have had Premiere Pro in its iterations for years for certain purposes, but this has been a facility that has been built on and dependent on FCP versions 4-7. FCP 7 is still solid for what a mastering/online house like ours has been using for years. Videotape is VERY alive and will be for some time (I've wanted to say that here for years because I've been in top tier broadcaster's archives that house millions of tapes.)

Broadcast deliverables are still based on Network requirements. They want tapes. Our internet capabilites in the USA can't do 30 minute shows before the FedEx truck arrives in the morning.

FCP up through 7 had an acknowlegement to things being tape based. I think refuting tape-based content as far as ingest and device control are premature now for a company like Apple that has made many monies by many broadcast facilities that have built their structure on a solid base that has become tapeFULL to tapeLESS which is what FCP 7 evolved to.

I'm excited from what I gather from FCP 10 as a new NLE, I truly am, just as I'm excited what the next car I will drive will be like, but from a "get shit done" standpoint FCP served a larger market than just creative..That's the market trying to catch up or switch over - the broadcast operatives that put the things on TV that you watch at home.
I finally downloaded my free FCP 10 trial the other day at work, because I can't run the software at home..Got a G5 at home that works as well as my 12 year old car. They continue to make parts for it and service it, so I can keep driving it...Seems it's become an era of "What do you drive to work" amongst who uses what NLE.

So, this leads me to the true point of my post...
I find it ironic that Adobe is supporting a free upgrade for a CS2 product right now for existing customers, where Apple will not allow me to update my home edit from 6.0 to 6.0.6 as of today. There aren't that many feature upgrades between 6.0 and 6.0.6, but still, support your customer base in terms of longevity, right?


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Rafael AmadorRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 30, 2013 at 12:30:03 pm

[Chad Brewer] "There aren't that many feature upgrades between 6.0 and 6.0.6,"
Not operational features, Chad, but all the XDCAM supports comes from FC.6.2 on. So if you can't update you are missing support for one of the most widespread Broadcast formats (the format that SONY developed to substitute BETACAM).
But is it true that is not possible to update with "Software update"?
Incredible.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Mathieu GhekiereRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 30, 2013 at 12:55:36 pm

If you are on Mountain Lion, look for the update in Apple's archives, you can find it online, Pro-Apps updates.
Then download and install it manually.


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Rafael AmadorRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 30, 2013 at 3:51:56 pm

[Mathieu Ghekiere] " look for the update in Apple's archives, you can find it online, Pro-Apps updates. "
The Pro App Updates are not anymore available for manually download;
http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/8/1170421#1170425
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Mathieu GhekiereRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 31, 2013 at 9:13:50 am

Contact Apple Support? That's how some people have still been able to buy upgrades for FCP 7, if the rumor was/is correct. You can always try?


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Craig SeemanRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 30, 2013 at 6:01:37 pm

[Chad Brewer] "I find it ironic that Adobe is supporting a free upgrade for a CS2 product right now for existing customers, where Apple will not allow me to update my home edit from 6.0 to 6.0.6 as of today. "

Adobe sells software. Apple sells hardware. Apple wants you to buy a new computer. Adobe wants you to eventually upgrade your software. They're different business models.



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Chad BrewerRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 30, 2013 at 6:41:15 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Adobe sells software. Apple sells hardware. Apple wants you to buy a new computer. Adobe wants you to eventually upgrade your software. They're different business models."

True, but regardless of whether the product is software, hardware, or fresh cantaloupe, the common denominator of different business models is existence by having customers. Doesn't matter "what" they're buying, it's that you need to satisfy them in whatever way to buy whatever "it" is.

For all I know these days, robots are purchasing things online directly from computers and having them uploaded to their cloud, which would of course alter our ideas about business models all together.

Chad Brewer
Senior Videotape Operator
TeleVersions, LLC - Chicago


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Craig SeemanRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 30, 2013 at 7:00:28 pm

[Chad Brewer] "the common denominator of different business models is existence by having customers."

Some would say it's revenue. Customer is someone who buys something. Someone on FCP6 didn't pay for FCP7 and may not buy a new Mac to run 6 on.

The question is, is a future customer being alienated?
Someone using CS2 probably has a good likelihood of getting CS6 or a later version at some point.
Someone still on FCP6 may well fall into the category of "already looking elsewhere" for both an NLE and a possible move to Windows. I'm not sure if giving them an update to 6.0.6 encourages them to get a new Mac.

I'm not saying I like Apple's policy but I do think I understand their business model.

I actually think that people's ability to update the GPU on 2006-2008 MacPros to run FCPX hurt them. Radeon 5770 isn't officially supported pre 2010 (2009 GPU is supported). FCPX though, much to Apple's detriment, wasn't exactly a motivator for new system purchases for a time. At this point, fans of it, are moving to BTO iMacs but there's an issue with the iMac supply chain and the MacPro replacement is not on the table yet.



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Keith KobyRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 30, 2013 at 7:05:58 pm

There are better tools available for capturing and organizing materials from tape than fcp7. There are free ones too that come with your capture devices.

If you haven't detected a switch to digital delivery since the tsunami that affected Japan 2 years ago, then you certainly are working a lot in archival materials. We have been receiving HD feature length films as prores via aspera quicker than fedex for nearly two years now and lower bit rate mezzanines going back 5 years now.

Last year we stopped delivering promos on tape. We are done buying lots of video tape. LTO tape on the other hand we buy a lot of. But even that model is changing. All of this material is delivered over the internet and soon even big facilities with lots of video assets will be backing up offsite over the internet. It happens a lot already.

Yeah we still receive some materials on hdcam and digibeta. FCP 4- 7 and maybe before was great at letting you organize material in a capture scratch after capturing and then editing. It was a great app for the last, what, 10 years? What is exciting about fcpx is that it is a tool that has useful features and tons of potential for the next 10 years or so.

I can understand your hesitation to part with old familiar workflows, but you need to look at the reality of the situation.

Keith Koby
Sr. Director Post-Production Engineering
iNDEMAND
Howard TV!/Movies On Demand/iNDEMAND Pay-Per-View/iNDEMAND 3D


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Lance BachelderRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 30, 2013 at 8:03:48 pm

Yeah totally concur - sometimes I feel the only reason tape delivery still exists is because guys who are still running G5's refuse to give it up. I've delivered my last feature (90min.) via FTP in both HD and SD to various buyers as far away as Finland days quicker than courier. When FTP doesn't work we send a Pro RES file along with stems and key art on a USB drive - we will not send tape unless the client pays for it - amazing how many will give in and take a drive instead of paying hundreds for an SR.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Aindreas GallagherRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 31, 2013 at 12:07:20 am

[Lance Bachelder] "the only reason tape delivery still exists is because guys who are still running G5's refuse to give it up. "

hey look - some random guy drunk on merlot turned and decided to be bitchy. again.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Lance BachelderRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 31, 2013 at 3:02:59 am

Easy to get personal when you're thousands of miles away via the web. Why don't you stop wasting so much time bitching here and go take a design class or 2 you hack.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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-2


Jeremy GarchowRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 31, 2013 at 4:44:51 am

Hey lovebirds, can we keep this on topic?


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Aindreas GallagherRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 31, 2013 at 2:33:17 pm

well, you are pretty random, you are awfully bitchy, and you do like your merlot apparently. remember the one where you were screaming about jazz and calling people "pricks"? that one was genuinely embarrassing to read. I nearly felt bad for you there.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy GarchowRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 31, 2013 at 3:46:30 pm

On topic, please.


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Aindreas GallagherRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 31, 2013 at 4:58:44 pm

I think a G5 is ok to work with, and I don't think its right to make pointless snyde comments about it. that formed my reply to mr. merlot.

but as you say.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chad BrewerRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 31, 2013 at 7:26:11 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "I think a G5 is ok to work with"

I like that you picked up on what I was saying, Aindreas, and noted the "hardware snobbery" that was expressed in another post.
My post and thread title were stating I have a G5/FCP6 for home use. And yes, they aren't cutting edge any more, but still respectable machines nonetheless as you say.

I work with a whole big gang o' Mac Pros and the like at work, just can't afford one for myself.

Chad Brewer
Senior Videotape Operator
TeleVersions, LLC - Chicago


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Aindreas GallagherRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 31, 2013 at 8:35:19 pm

completely - I'm still mostly on a fairly ancient MBP rigged up to a monitor storage and speakers - and I was on 6 for the longest time - there really isn't that much in 7 at the end of the day - the speed re-timing fix was the only one you'd really truly hanker for.

If it works it works right?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chad BrewerRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 30, 2013 at 8:41:25 pm

[Keith Koby] "There are better tools available for capturing and organizing materials from tape than fcp7. There are free ones too that come with your capture devices."

Yeah, they are used here all the time as well.

[Keith Koby] "If you haven't detected a switch to digital delivery since the tsunami that affected Japan 2 years ago, then you certainly are working a lot in archival materials."

It's been a huge switch to digital delivery...For many years now and we've been on every wave of it...Working with lots of archival materials? But of course...What was the video storage/recording medium for the past 30 years? Brand new, created this morning type content still goes out on tape every day though. Digital delivery outweighs our tape delivery these days, no doubt, but tapes are around and will be for some time. That's all my point was. Networks still demand it because for now, it's the best way to limit the plethora of technical variables involved in video.

[Keith Koby] " All of this material is delivered over the internet and soon even big facilities with lots of video assets will be backing up offsite over the internet. It happens a lot already."

Back-up and delivery via the internet are two different situations at this point. Please upload a 4:4:4 RGB, feature length film with 12 channels of audio to Paris for a film festival this Friday. Good luck.

[Keith Koby] " What is exciting about fcpx is that it is a tool that has useful features and tons of potential for the next 10 years or so."

Agreed. It is exciting to see something new with years of potential and room for growth.

[Keith Koby] "I can understand your hesitation to part with old familiar workflows, but you need to look at the reality of the situation."

No hesitation at all, nor any adherence to old workflows. I develop new digital and videotape based workflows on a daily basis in a high demand broadcast environment. And to your last comment, I don't need to "look at the reality" of the situation." I live in the situation.

Chad Brewer
Senior Videotape Operator
TeleVersions, LLC - Chicago


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Craig SeemanRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 30, 2013 at 9:34:30 pm

[Chad Brewer] "Back-up and delivery via the internet are two different situations at this point. Please upload a 4:4:4 RGB, feature length film with 12 channels of audio to Paris for a film festival this Friday. Good luck."

2K ProRes4444 23.98fps 90 minute length is something like 230GB. That could fit on a small rugged HDD
FedEx can deliver it just as fast.
No need to add pull down either since it's not going back to tape. No one needs to buy or rent a deck either.

If you mean 16bit RGB it's still 1.73TB and 10bit is 1.15TB
4k ProRes 4444 is a little over 800GB
All of this works on HDD.

Granted the tape is an "archive" (more or less) whereas the file on an HDD is most decidedly not.



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Chris KennyRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Feb 1, 2013 at 3:44:19 am

[Craig Seeman] "2K ProRes4444 23.98fps 90 minute length is something like 230GB. That could fit on a small rugged HDD
FedEx can deliver it just as fast."


Alternatively, a 65 Mbps (upstream) FiOS connection (I pay $100/month for one here) can move 230 GB in less than nine hours.

As William Gibson said, the future is already here — it's just not evenly distributed.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Craig SeemanRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 30, 2013 at 7:58:12 pm

I don't think FCPX losses that much with regards to tape.
If you're ingesting with AJA or Blackmagic devices they have very capable tape handling.
While you don't have tape out from FCPX, going to ProRes and putting in the above I/O devices works just fine. What one losses by not going out from the timeline is the ability to do an insert edit, something I remember dreading anyway... even from Avid. Also batch capturing a timeline also isn't possible but there really shouldn't be a need for that except for older projects. Even if using tape sources it may make for sense to archive the ingested file.

On the whole, tape is still viable with FCPX as long as you don't mind the lose of insert editing back to tape.



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Michael GissingRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 30, 2013 at 10:04:01 pm

Bottom line for me is that broadcast docos that I work on still have HDCam(SR) and digi beta as deliverables. Most international distributors and broadcasters here in Australia and Europe insist on tape. In the US Discovery and Nat Geo still have it as a deliverable on their contracts so much as I would prefer to deliver via ftp or on a small drive, my client gives me a deliverable sheet with tape required.

I honestly thought that I would never get my money back on buying an HDCam deck six years ago. In a way I hoped that I would be off tape by now but it just isn't possible for me to go totally file based.

And Chad is right that there is work for capturing lots of tapes to files for future storage. My HDCam is about to be used for a week capturing in an underwater library shot on HDCam. I might use FCP7 or the Decklink capture software or I might go Pr as that is his preferred edit system.


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John HeagyRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 31, 2013 at 4:34:50 pm

[Craig Seeman] "I don't think FCPX losses that much with regards to tape."

I does if your doing an offline/online workflow and you have 100s of offline clips in the timeline that are from tape.

In FCP7 you could essentially capture directly to the timeline. Doing this in FCPX would mean somehow getting an in/out/reel list (EDL) of what's required and then capturing in a separate app. All these captured files would then need to be manually linked to the offline clips in the timeline.

Doing this in FCP7... easy... FCPX.. laborious!

John


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Craig SeemanRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 31, 2013 at 4:42:13 pm

[John Heagy] "I does if your doing an offline/online workflow and you have 100s of offline clips in the timeline that are from tape."

Assuming you brought them in ProRes, there's no reason to go back to tape. For Offline you can edit ProRes Proxy and go back to whatever higher rez ProRes master format you used. Once you bring in the tapes as master files you can/should archive that. It'll generally be a lot faster to retrieve that that trying to batch assemble from tape.



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John HeagyRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 31, 2013 at 4:50:56 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Assuming you brought them in ProRes, there's no reason to go back to tape."

The media required to fulfill the online timeline only exists on tape. It was never a file. This scenario is not a FCPX-FCPX offline/online but an Avid-FCPX.

John


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Craig SeemanRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 31, 2013 at 5:15:58 pm

[John Heagy] "The media required to fulfill the online timeline only exists on tape. It was never a file. This scenario is not a FCPX-FCPX offline/online but an Avid-FCPX. "

So you offlined in Avid and you're conforming in FCPX?
In any project one should have forethought about the entire workflow.
One could certainly digitize in ProRez (or DNxHD) and have file based source.

I must say I'm impressed that you thought FCPX would be more worthwhile to conform in than Avid. I guess that says something.



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John HeagyRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 31, 2013 at 5:32:57 pm

[Craig Seeman] "So you offlined in Avid and you're confirming in FCPX?"

The key word in my previous post is "scenario".

[Craig Seeman] "In any project one should have forethought about the entire workflow.
One could certainly digitize in ProRez (or DNxHD) and have file based source."


The whole benefit of offline/offline is to have access to far more media when working offline. The online conform is meant to only bring in what's necessary. What your suggesting really guts any offline/online efficiencies.

[Craig Seeman] "I must say I'm impressed that you thought FCPX would be more worthwhile to conform in than Avid. I guess that says something."

It's says don't want to replace our 1.2PB of Xsan with Issis!

John


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Craig SeemanRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 31, 2013 at 6:09:58 pm

[John Heagy] "The key word in my previous post is "scenario"."

Of course one can create illogical workflows and say "there, look, it doesn't work"


[John Heagy] "The whole benefit of offline/offline is to have access to far more media when working offline. The online conform is meant to only bring in what's necessary. What your suggesting really guts any offline/online efficiencies."

If you're talking 1999, yes. Generally Offline/Online means using some sort of proxy file and then relinking to a master file in 2013.


[John Heagy] "It's says don't want to replace our 1.2PB of Xsan with Issis!"

You don't have to change a facility to have an individual Avid work station for an individual job. That might have been an issue when an Avid MC cost $60,000 but the price is a bit lower now for the software and an appropriate Video Card with Deck Control. I'd say "rent an Avid" but I'm not sure if that's worthwhile given how low the software purchase price. Heck if you think Premiere Pro CS6 can do the job you can certainly "rent" the software and give that a go.

Sorry but coming up with, what I consider, a convoluted situation and blaming modern software for not being able to batch assemble something from another NLE using an old workflow, sounds like poor decision making. I can't read the EDLs from my 8" floppies either.



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John HeagyRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 31, 2013 at 10:32:45 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Of course one can create illogical workflows and say "there, look, it doesn't work""

If a workflow that works without issue in FCP7 but becomes laborious with FCPX means it's illogical... Ok.

[Craig Seeman] "You don't have to change a facility to have an individual Avid work station for an individual job."

Almost all our jobs require at least a few shots be brought in from tape. I see linking all the captured shots as a bigger issue than capturing.

[Craig Seeman] "Sorry but coming up with, what I consider, a convoluted situation and blaming modern software..."

FCP7 allowed creative solutions, sorry I mean "convoluted", that are wide spread and diverse in the large facility space. FCP7 dominates in this space because of this ability. Apple clearly geared FCPX to a smaller "one man band" or even "quartet" with really no regard to large facilities workflows. They really slammed the door on enabling custom solutions in favor of Apple "one size fits all" in a clear nod to Avid. Creating innovative workflows with FCP7 is like playing on a wide open field. Avid is like a straight jacket. FCPX is looking like a padded room.

We are certainly a big ship that turns slowly. Believe me I have the rudder full to port but it just doesn't turn fast enough.

You wrote FCPX doesn't lose much when it comes to tape... I respectfully disagree no matter what you think of our methods.

Seems I get dissed every time I describe how we're struggling with FCPX. Is this forum not interested in a large facility's persecutive?

John


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Walter SoykaRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 31, 2013 at 10:40:03 pm

[John Heagy] "Seems I get dissed every time I describe how we're struggling with FCPX. Is this forum not interested in a large facility's persecutive? "

That's all part of the fun here... right?

I, for one, am very interested in hearing about your facility perspective.

You fret about tape; I'll fret about image sequences. Here's to illogical workflows.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy GarchowRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 31, 2013 at 10:47:09 pm

[John Heagy] "Seems I get dissed every time I describe how we're struggling with FCPX. Is this forum not interested in a large facility's persecutive? "

I am.


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Keith KobyRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 31, 2013 at 11:08:04 pm

I too am interested.

The tape issue is difficult. John, I think you said "no mam" (media asset management system). We are looking to centralize here.

We are looking to overhaul our tape capture process to make it NLE or video app agnostic. The idea that we are leaning towards is using tools on air justin, the softron stuff or aja vtr exchange or even bmd media express and gleaning tape metadata from the app and keeping that in the mam. Then when or if the source asset has been deleted and we need it back, we are looking for a clever means of pushing that data back from the mam to the capture program for recap.

My thought process here is that we use assets in more than just the nle. IE after effects c4d etc. if a tape sourced asset is missing from AE and I used fcp7 or whatever to capture, but have no means to recollect which project was used, what good does it do? I recall that some reel metadata was stored in the QT, but I'm not certain that would be found in offline info in other apps outside of fcp7.

So we want the mam to look backwards and forwards. It should be able to say, this came from tape and here's the bar code, and this went to lto6, and here's that barcode...

Keith Koby
Sr. Director Post-Production Engineering
iNDEMAND
Howard TV!/Movies On Demand/iNDEMAND Pay-Per-View/iNDEMAND 3D


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John HeagyRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 31, 2013 at 11:48:43 pm

Hi Keith,

[Keith Koby] "I recall that some reel metadata was stored in the QT"

Ah... now your talking my language. Yes there is "reel" metadata that comes along with the timecode track. In the QT API it's call TCSource. This is the old FCP7 reel metadata that inexplicably is not read by FCPX. Hoping that will change in the next version. It's like reading history... never an excuse not to do that.

Luckily FCPX embraces QT's extended metadata model. The reel in FCPX is read from QT when it finds a com.Apple.ProApps.Reel key. Arri uses this model a well as the old TCSource. It supports custom keys which you can punch into QT with Digital Rebellions's QTEdit. FCPX will read any custom key if entered as a custom metadata field using the same com.xxx syntax.

CatDV excels at reading any an all com.xxx entries out of the box.

Interesting you are looking at Just:in we use B4M's Fork extensively but it does not include any embedded metadata. I've been meaning to try Just:in for this reason.

John


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Keith KobyRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 31, 2013 at 11:56:55 pm

[John Heagy] "Interesting you are looking at Just:in we use B4M's Fork extensively but it does not include any embedded metadata. I've been meaning to try Just:in for this reason.
"


We can talk off the record about this...

Keith Koby
Sr. Director Post-Production Engineering
iNDEMAND
Howard TV!/Movies On Demand/iNDEMAND Pay-Per-View/iNDEMAND 3D


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John HeagyRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Feb 1, 2013 at 12:04:38 am

Keith,

I sent you a LinkedIn message.


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Craig SeemanRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 31, 2013 at 10:50:59 pm

[John Heagy] "If a workflow that works without issue in FCP7 but becomes laborious with FCPX means it's illogical... Ok."

Because FCP7 is EOL and FCPX is new code. Yes as I said, at some point developers, hardware or software, cut off backward compatibility. All do it at different points for different reasons but it is inevitable.

I'd be surprised if Premiere Pro CS6 could open an old Premiere 6 project from 2001.

Avid probably keeps backward compatibility going very far back but even they had cutoffs with their hardware based codecs when they changed board technology.

Compatibility has a life span, Some longer. Some shorter. Every developer cuts off at some point. Everyone hitting that point in any software goes "ouch" at that point. Again, that's why people keep old computers, old software, old decks alive.

In most cases for most people Blackmagic and AJA have solutions that can handle tape for those who need to pull from that. Blackmagic Media Express can handle CMX EDL for example. That doesn't help if you don't have CMX EDL file from the old Avid project though.


[John Heagy] "CP7 dominates in this space because of this ability"

Good reason for keeping old software alive as I said above
Repeating again, every software drops backwards compatibility with some things at some point... unless the software itself dies... What would you do with an Discreet Edit project?

[John Heagy] "Seems I get dissed every time I describe how we're struggling with FCPX. Is this forum not interested in a large facility's persecutive? "

I spend many years at facilities like yours as I allude in some of my previous posts. It's very easy for a big facility to keep an old workstation going.



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John HeagyRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 31, 2013 at 11:25:05 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Because FCP7 is EOL and FCPX is new code. Yes as I said, at some point developers, hardware or software, cut off backward compatibility. All do it at different points for different reasons but it is inevitable."

I would argue that tape is far from EOL and Apple, as is typical, forced the issue. I swear Apple engineers must get bonuses based on cutting "legacy" tech from apps.

We'll find a way around it, but again, to say not much is lost as far as tape goes is not true from our stand point.

John


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Keith KobyRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 31, 2013 at 11:46:32 pm

[John Heagy] "I would argue that tape is far from EOL and Apple, as is typical, forced the issue. I swear Apple engineers must get bonuses based on cutting "legacy" tech from apps.

We'll find a way around it, but again, to say not much is lost as far as tape goes is not true from our stand point.
"


John,

See my other post with explanation. I don't want tape capture married to an NLE in the future. I want it separate in a centralized location and stored as metadata and exportable to other tape capture mediums in the future. Having said that you know as well as I that we have tons of old tape from the 80s and 90s that is rotting. Those need archived digitally. Further reason for me to want tape capture, and just as important, "tape capture metadata" stored outside of the nle. It's now clear that an NLE also has a "shelf life".

I'm actually seeing lack of tape capture inside of the app as a positive rather than a negative. (I know some people are cursing me saying to put the kool aid down.)

Keith

Keith Koby
Sr. Director Post-Production Engineering
iNDEMAND
Howard TV!/Movies On Demand/iNDEMAND Pay-Per-View/iNDEMAND 3D


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John HeagyRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Feb 1, 2013 at 12:03:52 am

[Keith Koby] "I don't want tape capture married to an NLE in the future. I want it separate in a centralized location and stored as metadata and exportable to other tape capture mediums in the future. "

Yes that is inevitable. The big issue for us is data granularity. If you digitize a 2 hr program, but you just need a 4 sec shot, are you willing to restore the entire 150GB file? We do historical shows that have hundreds of tape sources most only containing a single shot for the conform. Tape is great for capturing only want you need.

LTO partial store is a feature that is talked about but rarely implemented. It's really the holy grail of LTO but until it's bread and butter LTO tech I'm not willing to chase that unicorn. I'm breaking up large files prior to archive. That makes linking tricky but we have some clever rabbits here.

John


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Craig SeemanRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Feb 1, 2013 at 2:55:33 am

[John Heagy] " If you digitize a 2 hr program, but you just need a 4 sec shot, are you willing to restore the entire 150GB file? We do historical shows that have hundreds of tape sources most only containing a single shot for the conform. Tape is great for capturing only want you need. "

You can do that right now in Blackmagic and I believe AJA software. Independent of any NLE. Grab the 4 second clip and you have to file go into any NLE you'd like. You can even batch digitize a CMX EDL.



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John HeagyRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Feb 1, 2013 at 3:05:12 am

[Craig Seeman] "You can do that right now in Blackmagic and I believe AJA software. Independent of any NLE. "

I was talking about restoring the file from LTO not capturing from tape.


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Craig SeemanRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Feb 1, 2013 at 12:39:12 am

[John Heagy] "I would argue that tape is far from EOL"

Tape will be around a long time given all the old sources. The need to batch assemble a timeline from tape is getting scarce. Tape can easily be converted to file. There's little need for that kind of offline/online given proxy file workflows. With ProRes and DNxHD, once captured, it makes sense to stick to the files.



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Chad BrewerRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 31, 2013 at 6:04:33 pm

[Craig Seeman] "In any project one should have forethought about the entire workflow."

Well, yeah, in an ideal world or one in which one editor/one post-house/etc. is in sole control of the process and the decisions to be made from project start to finish.

A facility like ours or say Michael Gissing's in Australia have the variety of NLE's on the market sometimes playing somewhat different roles than simply for the creative work that is largely discussed here. We have the countless scenarios where a producer or director (not editor) comes to us with a project file from who knows when, from who knows where, and 5 boxes of videotapes that comprised the edit 10 years ago, and says, "Can you put this back together? I'm re-purposing some work...Or updating me reel...Or I have a gold-mine of valuable footage I shot in the 1980's - it's on 1" tape ONLY, but the content still has the ability to possibly generate hundreds of thousands of dollars in future revenue in some way, because it's footage for whatever reason that can never be re-created."

That's part of the reason I wanted to introduce a discussion about FCPX and its future from a facility's standpoint, not just a creative editor's standpoint because FCP7 has had and still does have, entire facilities built around it - and of course it's EOL now, but still works like a charm....For now...But we can obviously only say "for now," right now.

It's quite possible John Heagy had no control of this particular project he was mentioning until it was handed to him from someone/somewhere else. These very common situations of having to "un-earth" or "repurpose" or "pick up on in the middle of" old or new projects and the necessity to be able to do so for many years is a point Jeremy Garchow talks about a lot here and is crucial for him and his clients and I'm sure is for many others. My guess is he still pulls one of his own DVCPRO HD shoot tapes now or then to get that one shot he knows they got years ago, but never needed until now. He's "got it like that." Jeremy has the very deserved power to have a lot of control of his entire workflows.

It would be ideal for every project's workflow to be determined at the start and then adhered to until completion, but for some editors and MOST of us video facilities, that's a luxury we are treated to like, only when there's a full moon, or the stars align, or we are having one of those "it can't be this easy" type days which aren't that often.

Chad Brewer
Senior Videotape Operator
TeleVersions, LLC - Chicago


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Craig SeemanRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 31, 2013 at 6:21:42 pm

[Chad Brewer] "have the variety of NLE's on the market"

And you can buy the software for each dirt cheap. You may not even need to buy a new computer. Petition the hard drive or have separate boot drives and you're good to go.

[Chad Brewer] "e have the countless scenarios where a producer or director (not editor) comes to us with a project file from who knows when, from who knows where, and 5 boxes of videotapes that comprised the edit 10 years ago, and says, "Can you put this back together?"

Good that you have a way to read an 8" floppy with an EDL on it or the punch tape going back a bit further. Of course you have a Quad machine around as well.

If you're expecting a variety of work you get the gear to support it. You don't expect modern gear to handle older formats and workflows beyond a point.

If you can capture off tape with time code and have an EDL you can even number match hand confirm. I've done it.

If you expect an Avid job coming in, the software is dirt cheap these days compared to the $60,000 plus it cost a decade or so ago.

Sometimes you need to keep old gear alive if that's something your facility needs to address. I've experienced this first hand since I've worked on 2" preservation projects (funny they how D2 looked like a good decision at the time!) and old 1/2" reel to reel video (what a bear given the number of formats and decks).



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Chad BrewerRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 31, 2013 at 8:12:37 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Of course you have a Quad machine around as well."

I got past your sarcasm, but how'd you know the one VTR we don't have? Honestly, we get calls twice a year, every year now from some poor souls desperately trying to find a Quad in service for some tape they hold to be precious still.

[Craig Seeman] "If you're expecting a variety of work you get the gear to support it. You don't expect modern gear to handle older formats and workflows beyond a point."

Yep. For a place like the one I work at, it's a must. We have to be ready every day for a very large client based with broadly disparate needs.
Everything here is in service and used everyday believe it or not:
http://www.televersions.com/formats

Archiving has become and will continue to be a really big deal in terms of videotape libraries and content. I've seen since the creation of the Apple Pro Res codec that due to it's efficiency and manageable file size it has been making many tape archiving jobs a reality, instead of an overwhelmingly complex and expensive wish.

Chad Brewer
Senior Videotape Operator
TeleVersions, LLC - Chicago


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Craig SeemanRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 31, 2013 at 8:49:38 pm

[Chad Brewer] "I got past your sarcasm, but how'd you know the one VTR we don't have?"

I've worked in very similar circumstances. I was the one who had to go out of house to a facility with a Quad machine (was one of the few who knew how to work one) and do D2 transfers. I've been involved with a number of preservations projects. Actually did have someone walk in with punch cards once and an 8" Floppy another time.

If you're a facility accepting that kind of work you have to know what to do. I wouldn't complain about a single NLE that couldn't handle something done from another NLE potentially using a years old workflow. I'd find a solution for the client. If the main issue is software compatibility, software is cheap these days. That's my point. If a new version of Avid MC can handle the batch than that's what you get. Jeremy pointed to another solution.

That Avid is backwards compatible with old projects and FCPX is not backwards compatible with old Avid projects as the latter never supported batch tape capture isn't really a serious flaw in FCPX. Avid is the tool for that job.

[Chad Brewer] "For a place like the one I work at, it's a must."

That's absolutely unrealistic. All modern equipment at some point limits or terminates backward compatibility in some areas and each developer does it at different times and for different reasons.

Just as one may have to maintain an old Quad machine (you can't buy a new one) you're going to run into the same thing with software.

Even Avid had file issues when they switched boards and formats. Of course the answer at the time was batch digitize.



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Michael GissingRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Feb 1, 2013 at 12:17:10 am

[Craig Seeman] "If you're expecting a variety of work you get the gear to support it. You don't expect modern gear to handle older formats and workflows beyond a point."

I do expect software to be able to open older projects. That was my experience in the past with a range of DAWs and NLEs. The fact that Pr can open FCP7 projects and FCPX needs third party software is evidence that cross platform alternate NLE designers consider this to be important.

Today I am attempting to reload a ten year old audio project to send an OMF of tracks & stems for a reversion. If I can find a DDS3 tape drive that works amongst my collection then I can do this because systems and formats, although on EOL systems, are cross and backwards compatible.

I agree with the observation that Apple deliberately breaks such compatibilities and interchange formats on a cycle that is frustrating to anyone other than the isolated editor who lets facilities deal with that crap. If Apple decide the backwards compatibility 'point' is two years then sorry, they can cop some well deserved flack.

If you think the facility model is EOL then good luck working on anything that requires archived footage.


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+2


Aindreas GallagherRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Feb 1, 2013 at 1:24:00 am

[Michael Gissing] "I agree with the observation that Apple deliberately breaks such compatibilities and interchange formats on a cycle that is frustrating to anyone other than the isolated editor who lets facilities deal with that crap. If Apple decide the backwards compatibility 'point' is two years then sorry, they can cop some well deserved flack.

If you think the facility model is EOL then good luck working on anything that requires archived footage.
"


Isn't this, on some level, a point regarding Apple's future potential role in editing going forward?
If the software produced by them is, and lately it is, deliberately designed to exclude older hardware and historical interconnects -what is the basis of trust?

why do you go with software from a mobile devices company running 48 month cut off points?
why are we pretending that this is a long term core professional pro software provider? Given that they aren't?

FCPX software earns them .001% of (argue it) earnings . but pro level hardware, that FCPX is meant to leverage, maybe earns them 3/5% of total revenue - thats the good MBPS and the good iMacs.

all mac sales just fell 20% in the last call.

Part of me likes FCPX - but the idea that the software, or its pro hardware maker are in anyway stable over a 4-8 year horizon is sheer madness. they just lost their core executive. no one knows where apple is going.

bottom line: this is not, by any classical definition, an editing system provider.
it's just not. magical thinking might let you think it is so. but that is magical thinking.

as a very large PS:
has anyone really worked Premiere through? I quite like it: because it would be very nice to have an industry recognised alternative to the late nineties early naughts avid hegemony. This one is coming from a company directly, shareholder value style, invested in its success.

bottom line: the idea that the craft of editing holds on to the coat tails of a company bigger than Exxon three days a week - that has literally no onus to continue what is a historical vanity project, is sheer madness.

Apple are not an editing system provider. Some small part of them might still like to think they are, but they just are not.

proceed at your peril.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Michael GissingRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Feb 1, 2013 at 1:53:42 am

Totally agreed Aindreas. Trust and the fact that FCPX doesn't suit my needs means I have voted with my feet and built a new PC with CS6 and da Vinci. Do I trust Adobe and Blackmagic? Compared to Apple yes I do.


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Jeremy GarchowRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Feb 1, 2013 at 3:08:54 am

I don't mean to start conflicts here, but have you really knocked on Adobe interchange with any heft? I'm genuinely curious because it creeps me out how weird it can be.

And how often Pr crashes, but maybe that's just my system.

I know it's new, but round trips to/fro Resolve were working better from fcpx on the first day of FCPXML's public existence than I have been able to get out of Pr, and there's the issue of native media management?

I'm sure it'll get better, but I am curious on how you plan on handling all of this?

Going faster means you hit the wall with more force.

Apple deserves a ribbing, it's true. In 2 years, any legacy fcp projects that we need to restore are going to become a big pain in the ass to manage. Clients don't know, and certainly won't care, to hear a sob story of my 4 year old software getting cancelled. They just want it done.


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Michael GissingRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Feb 1, 2013 at 4:00:13 am

Early days for me Jeremy and totally fair questions. So far stability has been good. I found one thing that made the system crash but otherwise the first testing has had me import a DSLR H264 folder, do a basic edit, XML round trip with Resolve and back with only one wipe effect being swapped to a dissolve. Immediately noticed the improved real time performance and da Vinci grade speeds thanks to a GTX680 card grunting away for both apps.

That said I am on a Win 7 machine that I have just built and it seems rock solid so far. FCP7 would also have the odd crash. I have the legacy MacPro system available if I need ProRes and managing FCP7 projects to deal with any weirds. Autoduck is also there as a fallback for AAF weirdness.

As I stress test I will report on any issues. Lots of searching various da Vinci & Adobe forums has me intrigued if I can reproduce some of the reported issues. Given the need to do a lot of management of FCP7 projects before grading, I just wonder if many of the XML round trip issues are not management issues and false expectations rather than real bugs. Just as I learned to deal with getting editors to strip out plugins that weren't common or warn me what font they used before FCP7 just changed all the text fonts without warning, I will have to develop notes for editors to avoid the querks of CS6 & da Vinci. But so far it seems a step up and also many clients are either converting to Pr or at least have Cs6 in house anyway so they can pretest in house before coming to me which is something the AVID editors couldn't do in the past.


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Jeremy GarchowRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Feb 1, 2013 at 4:47:59 am

I'd be curious about the results of your stress tests.

Be sure to throw dynamic links in there as part of your tests.


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Michael GissingRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Feb 1, 2013 at 4:54:16 am

Certainly will. To be fair, the amount of plugin, speed and codec management that was required to round trip FCP and Color means I don't just expect complex layered highly effected XMLs to work perfectly anyway. I am encouraged that Wes from Autoduck is in house at Adobe so I do expect it will get better.


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Jeremy GarchowRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Feb 1, 2013 at 5:05:00 am

I say the same about fcpx, hope some things get better.

See, we all have our wishes! ;)


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Jeremy GarchowRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Jan 31, 2013 at 7:39:04 pm

[John Heagy] "Doing this in FCP7... easy... FCPX.. laborious!"

Once you get the EDL or batch list, or whatever it is, AJA VTR Xchange v5.2 will capture that straight to an Event.

Still not quite seamless, but it is less laborious!

Jeremy


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Keith KobyRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Feb 3, 2013 at 5:14:59 am

Jeremy,

Is there a way to export an XML out of x with offline info and feed that back to Aja vtr xchange so that files get captured back to where they were deleted? It would require that reel info made the trip into fcpx initially and then came back out through the XML. Also, it would require a means of parsing the XML and presenting the relevant info to Aja vtr xchange.



kk


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Jeremy GarchowRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Feb 3, 2013 at 7:06:37 pm

[Keith Koby] "Is there a way to export an XML out of x with offline info and feed that back to Aja vtr xchange so that files get captured back to where they were deleted?"

Not super easily.

With X, relinking files has to be the exact same length as the original, at least for now.

AJA VTR Xchnage doesn't seem to work with inputting FCPXML quite yet, and the software AJA announced a while ago called Control Room, seems to be MIA.

I haven't tried it, but I'd bet using the third party EDL exporter (http://xmil.biz/EDL-X/EDL-X.shtml), you might be able to open that with VTR Xchnage.

Alternatively (and this is probably obvious), you could use the Xto7, import the FCPXML and export a batch list from FCP7 for VTR Xchange or just use FCP7 to capture.

Also, reel numbers are currently strange in fcpx.


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John HeagyRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Feb 4, 2013 at 10:13:27 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "With X, relinking files has to be the exact same length as the original, at least for now."

This really needs to change in order to support not only truncated video tape captured clips but LTO partial restores. I'd like to see metadata determine linking not just UUID/filename/path. This would be user selectable. One guess what I'd select :)

[Jeremy Garchow] "Also, reel numbers are currently strange in fcpx."

Not strange, just myopic as is typical with Apple.

FCP7, and another apps that see "reel" in QT, see the TC reel ID referred to as TCSource in the QT API. It's is literally the name of the timecode track in the QT movie.

Apple decided nobody needs to read this metadata present in every file captured from tape over the past decade and still created by many third party apps. Instead they adopted the newer extended metadata QT model, not sure what it's official name is, and excluded TCSource. The best place to see this is in Arri ProRes files. The only confusing part is Arri puts the reel number in both the extended and TCSource metadata.

John


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Keith KobyRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Feb 5, 2013 at 12:12:20 am

[John Heagy] "This really needs to change in order to support not only truncated video tape captured clips but LTO partial restores. I'd like to see metadata determine linking not just UUID/filename/path. This would be user selectable. One guess what I'd select :) "

Not only for restore, but for archive. It needs to be able to export a media managed project with used media and handles. Our long form projects which come from live ingest media have clips that are about 5 hours long. With LTO6, we are getting closer to being able to save those files forever, but still it is a ways off. Maybe LTO8... When one show references over a TB of media, but uses only 50 or 60 GB of that, it is impractical to media manage everything. It's cleaner, but impractical. If I'm able to back up the complete file elsewhere, then perhaps the media manager just isn't necessary.

None the less, a method to media manage ala fcp7 "used media with handles" is needed and seems to be related to an ability to recapture with just used media.

If you could create a new project that would only reference used media. Even if that media was offline, then you could create an offline xml of that with offline children, and then go about the recap from the xml. It needs the reel info though as stated by you above.

Keith Koby
Sr. Director Post-Production Engineering
iNDEMAND
Howard TV!/Movies On Demand/iNDEMAND Pay-Per-View/iNDEMAND 3D


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Trevor AsquerthianRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Feb 3, 2013 at 10:00:01 am

"an insert edit, something I remember dreading anyway... even from Avid"

Hmm NEVER had an issue with insert editing from avid.

FCP yes (underlying QT inherently incapable as the quantising to frame edge was 50:50)



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Craig SeemanRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Feb 3, 2013 at 2:26:39 pm

[Trevor Asquerthian] "Hmm NEVER had an issue with insert editing from avid."

I've seen it. Not common but often enough. Sometimes it was user error at the facilities I worked at but it did happen.

[Trevor Asquerthian] "CP yes (underlying QT inherently incapable as the quantising to frame edge was 50:50)"

Amazing how some people complain about no direct tape in/out in FCPX when this was something Apple never could get right. I think it's smart they left it to third parties.



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Chad BrewerRe: FCP Legend/FCP 10/Personal Use/Facility Use
by on Feb 4, 2013 at 6:07:53 pm

[Craig Seeman] "[Trevor Asquerthian] "FCP yes (underlying QT inherently incapable as the quantising to frame edge was 50:50)"

Amazing how some people complain about no direct tape in/out in FCPX when this was something Apple never could get right. I think it's smart they left it to third parties."


Hey Craig, is what you guys are talking about here with frame edges basically referring to the same thing as "frame accuracy" in terms of editing with machine control?

I ask because if so, it's perhaps the issue I've been dealing with for years regarding device control with FCP being sketchy - as in edits to tape can be dead on frame accurate over and over and then without changing anything to the same VTR they can be randomly 1 frame early or late. I was over this many times with AJA and Blackmagic over the years and finally thought it was probably an FCP issue that was never developed properly. I have never used AVID, but heard it had more reliable device control than FCP.

Is frame accuracy (or lack thereof) essentially what you guys are talking about here and how Apple could never get it right or is this a completely different discussion than the issues I've had that I was describing?

Chad Brewer
Senior Videotape Operator
TeleVersions, LLC - Chicago


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