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Henry Ford on FCP X

COW Forums : Apple FCPX or Not: The Debate

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Michael SandersHenry Ford on FCP X
by on Nov 30, 2012 at 8:26:05 pm

I'd be amazed if someone hadn't used this quote before in relation to FCP X but I heard it today for the first time:

"If I'd listened to what my customers wanted, I would have given them faster horses"

Sometimes you've got to make that leap of faith...

Michael Sanders
London Based DP/Editor


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Franz BieberkopfRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Nov 30, 2012 at 8:32:51 pm

Previously:
http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/23810

“The myth that customers cannot articulate their needs is perpetuated by innovation success stories such as the microwave, the Sony Walkman and (more recently) the Apple iPod and iPhone. The story goes something like this: “If you had asked customers, they couldn’t have told you they needed the iPhone. Therefore, it must be true that customers cannot articulate what they need.” But there’s the rub: However brilliant it may be, the iPhone is not a customer need. The iPhone – like the microwave and Walkman before it – is a solution to a customer need. When companies get solutions and customer needs confused, it confuses the role of the customer and the company in the innovation process. Customers articulate their needs; it is up to the company to create a solution. … When customer needs are defined in a manner that distinguishes them from solutions, not only can customers articulate their needs, but those needs become the valued foundation of the innovation process requires.”

Franz.


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Aindreas GallagherRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Nov 30, 2012 at 9:38:06 pm

"it's important to note that Apple seems to have approached both FCP and FCPX in terms of cost - they offer them as cheap alternatives to what is out there."

quoting from within your link there.

I made this point a while ago, but I wonder at Apple's pricing here, and whether the new 299 figure represents a realisation that they can take an amazon style approach to the market. In that they are engaged in market decimation through pricing, simply because they can.

Amazon are pretty rightly seen as highly destructive to publishing houses in the UK - they are pretty unbearable opposition given they don't seem to need to turn a profit in the business of publishing. They are market players, they just don't need to make any money. they want the market for their larger media goals. So they decimate it through pricing.

they have wrecked any number of small, valuable, and important publishing houses in the UK.

I would be curious if, hived off, the apple FCPX team could sustain itself off that 299 pricing in staffing, basic research and general carry on over the mid term - maybe yes, but unlikely given that FCPX is to some degree an expression of OSX (iOS really? at least the new video architecture?) components. The entire weight of apple is behind the architecture of the software.

But never mind the damage the pricing is doing to Avid say, what damage is it doing to potential market entrants? hardcore software in 3D, compositing, and video has a price tag - the go to market is limited and the research to produce breakthroughs in 3D visualisation, video processing etc is steep.

try the siggraph papers over the years, on say sub surface light scattering - the stuff doesn't appear overnight. it's not an iPhone app.

My question would be not whether Apple is Ford, but rather, is Apple, currently the largest corporation by market cap on earth, in effect a national basic research lab happily taking a buzz saw to the minnow that is the editing market?

Apple, if they wanted, could price FCPX at nineteen dollars and see a tiny hiccup in the third decimal point of their earnings.

No other current or future editing market entrant is in this position. Its the future part that would worry you.

they are not plucky young Ford - they are a behemoth looking to dominate, and to some degree, decimate, what is by nature a smallish open market software pool.

yes, they are broadening it, but they are using massive financial, research and marketing tools available to no other market entrant in order to do so.

At the very least you could argue that apple are, as giants playing in the puddle of editing, fundamentally distorting the market here.
And I'm really not sure its a great thing in the mid term.

whatever is happening, it's not a ford model-T comparison.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Marcus MooreRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 1:44:28 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "I wonder at Apple's pricing here, and whether the new 299 figure represents a realisation that they can take an amazon style approach to the market. In that they are engaged in market decimation through pricing, simply because they can. "

You're absolutely correct, but this shouldn't come as any surprise- Apple's recent history is centered around commoditizing software as an incentive to push their hardware.

iTunes by sheer volume generates a decent income at this point, but through most of the '00s it was referred to as a "break-even" business- at that point primarily as an inroad to sell iPods.

Final Cut was a fraction of the cost of most of it's competitors when it launched, even if it's feature set wasn't comparable to the incumbents at the very start (that's sounds familiar, doesn't it?)

Apple's bundling of quality iLife apps on Macs for no added cost was long seen as an advantage for the platform.

Recently, both the iOS and OSX appStores have generally lead to a push down on the pricing of software. Again, with the goal being to drive the purchase of iPhones, iPads, and Macs respectively.

FCPX only continues this trend.

It is really, truly, interesting that we have these companies with entirely different business models intersecting now. Both Amazon and Google are happy to sell their hardware at break even prices to drive the adoption of Amazon sales and Google search respectively. While Apple is on the other end, looking to make a profit on hardware while making small margins on content.

It remains to be seen which model can stand the test of time- though a look a quarterly results leads me to believe that Apple is certainly winning by sheer profits. Pure marketshare can only sustain you so long if you're not making any money.



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Richard HerdRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 2:46:49 am

Well said. You need to broaden your position, Aindreas. In epochs past, societies moved from speech to script, from script to press, from press to typewriter. Where are we now? From zoetrope to motion film, from film to video, from video to YouTube/vimeo/instagram?

This is a real question.


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Aindreas GallagherRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 3:41:35 pm

What time is it? It's Andy time baby. I would have thought that was obvious.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Michael SandersRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Nov 30, 2012 at 9:53:15 pm

That statement denigrates the great work done by inventors and engineers...

The development of the microwave was basically an accident. Percy Spencer was standing in front of a magnetron, testing out his new efficient design for RADAR when he noticed his the chocolate bar in his pocket melted. He then put some popcorn in front of the microwave and saw it popped all over the room. These observations lead to the discovery that microwave are a) dangerous and b) good for cooking.

Visicalc was invented after its inventor saw his professor having to re-write an equation on a board and realised he could do it on a computer. He wasn't responding to his professor saying "Oh could someone invent a computer progamme to do this for me".

The point is, the customer doesn't know what they want because the don't know what's possible. When it Edison created the lightbulb it was as a result of experimentation. It wasn't the solution to a problem.

Michael Sanders
London Based DP/Editor


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Franz BieberkopfRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Nov 30, 2012 at 10:07:00 pm

[Michael Sanders] "The point is, the customer doesn't know what they want because the don't know what's possible."

Michael,

It seems to me in the examples you've cited that some clever people managed to apply some new technological knowledge to well articulated needs. Obfuscating those two things may lead to a pithy quote that feeds a hero narrative, but doesn't do much else.

Not everyone is articulate or insightful about needs, but if you trace back through this forum there's lots of good examples of people who are. (In less politicized times, they may have been called "professionals" - I think their referred to as "niche specialists" now.)

If you haven't already, read the linked material.

Franz.


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Richard HerdRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 2:58:01 am

[Franz Bieberkopf] "(In less politicized times, they may have been called "professionals" - I think their referred to as "niche specialists" now.)
"


Standing ovation.
Thunderous applause.

You're one smart dude, Franz -- pithy too.


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Chris HarlanRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Nov 30, 2012 at 10:41:10 pm

[Michael Sanders] "he point is, the customer doesn't know what they want because the don't know what's possible. When it Edison created the lightbulb it was as a result of experimentation. It wasn't the solution to a problem.
"


I mention this below, but: ...the fallacy is that X is a car. Even if you love it to pieces and find not a single flaw, the reality is that it is still just a faster horse.


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Bill DavisRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Nov 30, 2012 at 11:16:52 pm

[Chris Harlan] " the reality is that it is still just a faster horse."

No, not AT ALL.

Once upon a time, video editing was done by VERY few people (unlike personal transportation which is a need by virtually everyone.)

Once upon a time, database management via computer was ONLY done by specialists.

Once upon a time, dozens of other sub-specialties like typesetting, design, and sound editing - were tasks that a VERY, VERY TINY subset of human beings cared about or practiced.

Because they didn't have access to the tools required to benefit from skills in those areas.

The digital revolution has comprehensively and permanently changed ALL that.

When the whole game changes and things that were once RARE become tremendously more common - that's precisely where the paradigms MUST change to remain relevant.

AVID made editing software for a tiny fraction of the world's computer users.

Apple is making editing software for a massive swath of the human race who are awakening to the power of the manipulation of motion video content as something useful, desirable, and worth some of their time.

In doing so they stand to create a cash flow that can support the robust creation of tools that not only serve the needs of basic editors, but can equally grow to serve the needs of MOST video editors - amateurs and pros alike.

X evolved because DATA accessibility and transmission has evolved. SEARCH has evolved. VIDEO DISTRIBUTION has evolved. And because the very tools that everyone uses to CAPTURE video have evolved.

Getting from point A to point B has NEVER evolved except to the extent that horseshoes and wagon wheels gave way to asphalt and rubber for moving people around - a universal task across all cultures.

That's vastly different from the rise of video from an entertainment medium to a general business and personal communications medium driven by technology.

There was NO time when cars were exclusively a niche business tool.

There clearly WAS such a time for video.

Ford was correct and the general lesson can be applied downstream. But saying that an idiom like Fords can work both ways and mean that something designed for new conditions is simply a "faster horse" is reductive and silly, IMO.

VWIW.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Chris HarlanRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 12:17:56 am

Sorry, Bill. Its just a faster--your millage may vary--horse. Yippie-kai-yeah.


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Richard HerdRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 3:01:39 am

And one should also research how long it took them to stop saying "horseless carriage."

Seriously.

Why am I calling this iPhone a phone?

(Bill, I'd like to read your screenplay(s).)


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Chris HarlanRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Nov 30, 2012 at 8:40:31 pm

[Michael Sanders] "I'd be amazed if someone hadn't used this quote before in relation to FCP X "

Yes, people have been using that tired chestnut for a very long time.


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Bill MarcellusRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Nov 30, 2012 at 9:48:16 pm

And then there was the Edsel..,



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TImothy AuldRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Nov 30, 2012 at 9:53:42 pm

And the Edsel came how many years after Ford being a ridiculously profitable company? 70 , 75 years? What precisely is your point here?

Tim


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Bill MarcellusRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Nov 30, 2012 at 10:02:26 pm

My point is simply that companies that try to innovate by creating things that "the customer doesn't even know they want" are not always successful in that endeavor. The Model T was a success- created by the same company that creates the Edsel. The jury is still out on X.



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TImothy AuldRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Nov 30, 2012 at 10:09:32 pm

Indeed it is.

Tim


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TImothy AuldRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Nov 30, 2012 at 9:46:21 pm

Henry Ford also said in response to all those who said he would go broke when he doubled his employees wages to an unheard of five dollars an hour: No, I won't. They will buy Fords.

Tim


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TImothy AuldRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Nov 30, 2012 at 9:50:25 pm

Oops. FIve dollars a day. But the message remains the same.

Tim


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Chris HarlanRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Nov 30, 2012 at 10:10:28 pm

[TImothy Auld] "Henry Ford also said in response to all those who said he would go broke when he doubled his employees wages to an unheard of five dollars a day: No, I won't. They will buy Fords."

He also built an experimental town, Fordlandia, in the middle of the Brazilian rainforest to produce rubber for tires. He believed this particular vision would produce a better life for the local plantation workers, but unfamiliarity with the actual process rubber tree farming and an overzealous enforcement of what appeared to the natives to be overly rigid and arbitrary rules led to disaster. The natives, who had been farming rubber trees for a very long time, found Ford's idiosyncratic approach both overbearing and ineffectual. The whole thing ended up in open revolt, and what's left of the town lies rotting in the forest. The whole venture was sold off as a loss. Maybe, in this instance, if he had just given them faster horses, he might actually have gotten some rubber.


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TImothy AuldRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Nov 30, 2012 at 10:22:05 pm

I am certainly not holding Henry Ford up as a paragon of wisdom, courage, decency and visionary compassion. If were looking to get into 19th rich folk who did very, very bad things, and then very good things - well, that's probably an anthology in the making.

Tim


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Chris HarlanRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Nov 30, 2012 at 10:37:49 pm

[TImothy Auld] "I am certainly not holding Henry Ford up as a paragon of wisdom, courage, decency and visionary compassion. If were looking to get into 19th rich folk who did very, very bad things, and then very good things - well, that's probably an anthology in the making.
"


I'm not arguing with you, I'm just enjoying the comparison. I figure that if someone can state "horses=all other NLEs, Cars=X" than its equally fare to state "X=Fordlandia, all other NLEs=working rubber plants."

Of course the fallacy is that X is a car. Even if you love it to pieces and find not a single flaw, it is still just a faster horse.


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TImothy AuldRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Nov 30, 2012 at 10:45:14 pm

I see what you mean. But he speed of a horse does depend a good deal on the rider.

Tim


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Chris HarlanRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Nov 30, 2012 at 10:56:46 pm

[TImothy Auld] "I see what you mean. But he speed of a horse does depend a good deal on the rider.
"


Indeed. Yippie-kai-yeah!


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Aindreas GallagherRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Nov 30, 2012 at 10:39:02 pm

I was at this above - but is this really a ford example? are apple as editing market entrants, given their scale compared to every other conceivable editing software provider, Ford?

Ford was not in a position to call any price number that entered his head for the model-T. He was not already the head of the most powerful, by market cap, corporation on earth.

ford was actually, competitively, in the game of automotives.

insofar as to realistic editing software providers in competition, now or in the future: Apple might as well be a day dreaming Zeus with a limitless credit card noodling with a can opener design no?

aren't those Gods capricious and a pain in the long run?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Joseph W. BourkeRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Nov 30, 2012 at 11:05:23 pm

Of course if Apple had listened to its customers, it would have given them FCP8, and this forum would not exist.

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Bill DavisRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Nov 30, 2012 at 11:30:33 pm

[Joseph W. Bourke] "Of course if Apple had listened to its customers, it would have given them FCP8, and this forum would not exist."

Earlier than that if Apple had listened to it's customers, somewhere around 1990 - the Mac OS would have become "PC compatible" and God knows where we video editors would be.

Possibly still in some command line hell using keystrokes to manipulate wire-frame "reels" on wireframe "decks?"

Or maybe everyone here would be ecstatic since by now we'd have IBM/Microsoft Video Virtual Flatbed V.73 with a virtual NAGRA suite, A virtual PhotoLab suite, and a Virtual Movie Theatre Simulator so you could drag and drop your virtual reels into your Virtual Projectors to make sure your virtual sprocket holes aligned properly.

And the COW would be reserved for a discussion of "projector sound effect skewmorphism" and endless debates on whether the Bell and Howell sound profile is more or less aesthetically satisfying than the Eiki sound profile.

Might have been kinda fun.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Aindreas GallagherRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Nov 30, 2012 at 11:37:50 pm

[Joseph W. Bourke] "Of course if Apple had listened to its customers, it would have given them FCP8, and this forum would not exist."

yep.

there are gigantic advances in X - near guaranteed audiopost level sweetening for docs - proper sync and VO compression output, (barring controllers as per harlan). 70+% of post level colour grading if you can work it. I feel I could sit in FCPX dodge and burn and crack most things out.

also footage interrogation and categorisation that half kills every other editing system. and brand elements published as live malleable components.

I do wonder if apple could have been driven to do any of that within an FCP studio update. they do like fundamental re-ordering.

basically, if we were going to get anything else from apple, it was going to be something in the order of this.

I throw dirt at them because you really are supposed to. They make it, but its our thing.

Even if they are a hegemony player, they are simply way more daring than MS with word. they will throw the baby, the bath water, the house, and an acre of the surrounding countryside to the wind if they feel it merits it.

It's impossible not to respect them for that.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Michael GissingRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 12:01:04 am

The quote, like the premise, is bullshit. Apple did listen to their customers. FCPX was not made for us so called broadcast professionals so why would they listen to us, the annoying demanding small end of the modern NLE market?

Truth is they then did listen to us. Look what they put back in in the past 18 months because we screamed for it. Meanwhile they have hit their real market and done something to placate their old customers.


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Aindreas GallagherRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 12:21:27 am

[Michael Gissing] "Apple did listen to their customers."

I'm... not completely sure thats true, unless they were travelling forward in christmas carol timeline terms?

- I think apple listened to an inner voice that was speaking in many tongues about video literacy, expanding their user base, file based adoption, a streamlined semantic workflow for first adopters -

I think apple were thinking about a scale of issue that very few editing providers have ever taken on board.
whether or not the brains in cupertino effectively exploded in delivery is another issue altogether.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Michael GissingRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 12:42:20 am

Aindreas, we are not the customers that matter. I am sure Apple were listening to the hordes of iMovie users who wanted something more and weighing that against the loud minority of professionals that wanted something different. When X shipped it was ready for the main market that they had been listening to for years. The changes they have made since are all about listening to the small noisy mob here.

I still contend that they made X after listening to the customers that matter most.


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Aindreas GallagherRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 12:53:42 am

[Michael Gissing] "Aindreas, we are not the customers that matter"

you are having a laugh mate.

editing isn't twittering.

It also isn't a future tense. It's chopping vast amounts of content. we pay the bills by editing, so do our employers.
It's a pay the gas bill profession from start to finish.

if apple cannot furnish an editing system that meets the market they are dead.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Michael GissingRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 1:15:22 am

[Aindreas]"if apple cannot furnish an editing system that meets the market they are dead."

If you think they aren't meeting their target market then I understand your ongoing frustration. The reason so many heated arguments happen around here stems from the fact that the old market of professional editors demanding a tool set are over. Apple are not an NLE company so they have no reason to listen to us.

Truth is they do seem to have hit a market, much bigger and long term more important (to them). I know that sounds like typical Bill speak, but prosumers are the market for Apple. Craig Seeman keeps reminding us of the sales figures. Apple are not dead and they are not listening to us as loudly as they once may have because every Tom, Dick & Harry wants to edit. We look around and see some pros loving the software but the penetration into our area is small as many have noted.

But X is not made for us and the sooner we realise and move on the better.


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Aindreas GallagherRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 1:30:28 am

[Michael Gissing] " the old market of professional editors demanding a tool set are over."

you just said that.

I leave this open to anyone.

anyone at all - who wants to jump in on the provision of professional tools.

is editing a profession?

why are architects still looking for auto-cad?

why is photoshop complex?

how self denigrating and stupid is the first statement above?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Oliver PetersRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 2:26:22 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "is editing a profession?
why are architects still looking for auto-cad?
why is photoshop complex?"


Isn't it a little ironic that the features and interfaces of FCP 7, Premiere Pro and Media Composer are viewed by many here as antiquated? Yet, in the same breath Autodesk Smoke is praised, even though it's essentially the same thing. In fact, if you factor in nodal compositing in 3D space, it's the poster child for complex tools.

I agree that it's good that Apple has offered a choice. But it's not the ONLY nor BEST choice for the future. Sometimes complexity and the need to put in effort to LEARN your tools is a good thing. I'm sure most of the Nuke compositors are chomping at the bit to chuck it and use Motion instead.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Walter SoykaRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 2:40:53 am

[Oliver Peters] "Isn't it a little ironic that the features and interfaces of FCP 7, Premiere Pro and Media Composer are viewed by many here as antiquated? Yet, in the same breath Autodesk Smoke is praised, even though it's essentially the same thing. In fact, if you factor in nodal compositing in 3D space, it's the poster child for complex tools."

In fairness, though, the overlap between the folks excited about FCPX and the folks excited about Smoke is pretty small.

The best lesson of FCP7: there's no one perfect NLE.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Richard HerdRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 8:15:16 am

[Walter Soyka] "The best lesson of FCP7: there's no one perfect NLE."

Bone to pick here too:
ok if that's actually true, then you need to stop trying to "fix" what you don't like about X. Just live with its failings and move on. A final kiss goodnight. X goes that way <-- you go that way -->. You don't have to hate each other or sue for child support. Just break up. Move on. Find a new one. Plenty of fish in the sea. Other cliches to type.
The speculation you posited proved false, ergo PIOPs are impossible because of the code. Well, apple proved you wrong and screwed up my workflow. I use X. You don't. Easy peesy: move on.

Not trying to be a dick (though my name is Richard) just pointing out the obvious.


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Walter SoykaRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 12:55:06 pm

[Walter Soyka] "The best lesson of FCP7: there's no one perfect NLE.""

[Richard Herd] "Bone to pick here too: ok if that's actually true, then you need to stop trying to "fix" what you don't like about X. Just live with its failings and move on. A final kiss goodnight. X goes that way <-- you go that way -->. You don't have to hate each other or sue for child support. Just break up. Move on. Find a new one. Plenty of fish in the sea. Other cliches to type."

As I said, there's no one perfect NLE. There are things in every one of them I'd like to see improved.

I have been very critical of elements of FCPX, but I've always liked FCPX's metadata-driven log/search approach, I think it's effects architecture is wonderful, and I've even been making the case for why the parent/child timeline is a valid approach. If I were doing the interview-driven corporates today that I did 10 years ago, I think I would be a major FCPX cheerleader. As it stands, it's a bit less useful for my work now, as all the really good stuff benefits other workflows. I don't want to change FCPX to FCP8, but I do think there's room for improvement within its current paradigm.

If you'd like to talk about the lists of things I don't like in Premiere or Smoke and want to see improved, we can do that, too! (Sorry, MC. I know we haven't seen each other much lately. It's not you, it's me.)


[Richard Herd] "The speculation you posited proved false, ergo PIOPs are impossible because of the code. Well, apple proved you wrong and screwed up my workflow. I use X. You don't. Easy peesy: move on."

You are really mad at me for PIOPs, aren't you? You bring it up in every thread. I am sorry if my Internet rants about data fragility carry such incredible influence in Cupertino that they caused Apple to break your workflow. (Or just maybe a lot of other editors were frustrated by fragile ranges, too.)

Phillip H. and Jeremy G. gave excellent reasons to think PIOPs couldn't happen (because there is more than one entry point to the same piece of media, raising both database and UI issues), and I bought into it. Obviously, I was wrong. Further, I agree with you that the implementation is poor and takes away something that was very good about FCPX. I'd rather drop PIOPs (10.0.5) than have the implementation we have now (10.0.6).

I think I pointed out a problem (range fragility). As we've all seen since then, and as I'm the first to admit, my proposed solution (PIOPs) failed badly. A bad solution doesn't prove the non-existence of the problem it purported to solve.

TL;DR: FCP7/FCPX has opened my eyes to the fact that our NLEs could all be a lot better. I do hope they all become better, and one way that we as users can help the developers improve the products is by sharing our experiences using them.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 2, 2012 at 2:01:21 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Phillip H. and Jeremy G. gave excellent reasons to think PIOPs couldn't happen (because there is more than one entry point to the same piece of media, raising both database and UI issues), and I bought into it. Obviously, I was wrong."

Just to clarify, if you look closely, I said many times that it would technically be possible to add something like PIOPs.

What I was arguing was that they wouldn't work very well and introduce more problems than we needed.

Apple surprised me with adding multiple ranges in to that mix.

The result of the PIOPs were as expected, when you use FCPX's tagging structure dynamically PIOPs can be a decently sized hindrance.

I will admit that I do like the multiple ranges feature, though. It's useful.

I also have to agree the Apple should stop trying to retrofit older metaphors on to the clearly newer methods employed in X. They should further refine, not appease. Make it better, not worse.


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Walter SoykaRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 3, 2012 at 1:28:05 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Just to clarify, if you look closely, I said many times that it would technically be possible to add something like PIOPs. What I was arguing was that they wouldn't work very well and introduce more problems than we needed. "

Sorry, Jeremy, I wasn't trying to imply otherwise.

I don't believe I ever declared that PIOPs were literally impossible as Richard has claimed, but I did start thinking they were a harder problem to solve well than I had originally thought after you showed me the example of overlapping pointers.

Of course, I still didn't foresee the current problem with PIOPs until they were already in the app...

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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David LawrenceRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 3, 2012 at 6:40:00 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Of course, I still didn't foresee the current problem with PIOPs until they were already in the app..."

This is a completely typical experience in all software development. No matter how good a feature looks on paper, until it's actually implemented and live tested, there's no way to truly how it works. That's why constant user testing and formative evaluation is an essential part of successful software design. Most software companies go thru this process before releasing their products.

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Richard HerdRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 8:08:19 am

[Oliver Peters] "Sometimes complexity and the need to put in effort to LEARN your tools is a good thing. "

oh olly. You can't even export a file out of X, man. Hard to take your critique seriously. Seriously.
No offense intended. Your ethos is flopping on the deck like Truckee river salmon. Just pointing out the obvious. If you don't like the software, stop using it. Sheesh.

Like you said "...LEARN your tools..."

--all in good faith and humor, Rich


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Chris HarlanRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 8:58:20 am

[Richard Herd] "[Oliver Peters] "Sometimes complexity and the need to put in effort to LEARN your tools is a good thing. "

oh olly. You can't even export a file out of X, man. Hard to take your critique seriously. Seriously.
No offense intended. Your ethos is flopping on the deck like Truckee river salmon. Just pointing out the obvious. If you don't like the software, stop using it. Sheesh.

Like you said "...LEARN your tools..."

--all in good faith and humor, Rich

"


What? Are you drunk or something? Chill out.


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Oliver PetersRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 1:46:34 pm

[Richard Herd] "Like you said "...LEARN your tools..."
--all in good faith and humor, Rich"


No offense taken. Exporting is just fine. Exporting without glitches is another matter.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill DavisRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 2:23:55 am

[Michael Gissing] "But X is not made for us and the sooner we realise and move on the better.
"


I don't necessarily disagree with this, but I also think it's an intellectual trap.

If, in fact, Apple - largely due to their success and resulting access to actionable intellegence in critical areas like processor architecture, global marketing, computer science etc. etc. etc - has a view of the future of visual data processing that's MORE likely to come to fruition than the visions of their competitors - then not tracking the value of their work will put EVERY editor at a disadvantage.

Now it may turn out that Adobe, and AVID and Sony all have shops currently capable of enough forward thinking by their designers and executives to compete extremely effectively in whatever the visual material manipulation market becomes over the next decade.

Or some or all of them will not.

( I selfishly hope they all do - because the more invention, the more it pushes every team to excel!)

But to take your eye of the team that is trying the boldest re-invention of your industry is INSANE in my estimation.

It's to simply say to yourself "the way I've always done these things is the ONLY way that will ever matter."

And history has generally proved that that kind of thinking generally leads to the folks operating slide rules trying to compete with the folks using calculators.

No - I'm NOT comparing those tools to ANY NLEs. Honestly.

I'm making a general point that Apple saw REAL global industrial changes coming that caused them to look for a different kind of flagship editing approach to meet new conditions and needs in the real-world market.

Any one of us might currently be shielded from those needs by our niche or personality. But that doesn't mean those changes aren't happening.

Nor that they won't effect ALL of us in the end.

FWIW.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Oliver PetersRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 2:31:03 am

[Bill Davis] "I'm making a general point that Apple saw REAL global industrial changes coming that caused them to look for a different kind of flagship editing approach to meet new conditions and needs in the real-world market."

No offense, but I think you are giving them way too much credit. I doubt this much thought was put into it at all. It's more likely that Jobs hated the direction the FCP 8 development was going, canned the team and said, "Randy, do something different. I love what you did with iMovie."

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill DavisRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 2:39:31 am

[Oliver Peters] "No offense, but I think you are giving them way too much credit. "

As evidence I offer the provable fact that half a dozen years ago they spent something like $300 Million plus pre-paying for FUTURE orders for NAND memory.

Essentially advance locking in the parts that would go into their iPods of the era so that they could be first to market with THEIR devices and essentially control the future of that slice of the industry.

Time and again, Apple releases stuff that we didn't know about in advance, but that, once revealed, proves they have been quietly working on a reasonably long-tail production pipeline well in advance of the market.

I think that shows pretty clearly that somebody in Cupertino is being paid to look farther downstream than many other companies.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Richard HerdRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 7:49:42 am

[Bill Davis] "paid to look farther downstream"

or is it further


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Walter SoykaRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 3:23:34 am

[Bill Davis] "If, in fact, Apple - largely due to their success and resulting access to actionable intellegence in critical areas like processor architecture, global marketing, computer science etc. etc. etc - has a view of the future of visual data processing that's MORE likely to come to fruition than the visions of their competitors - then not tracking the value of their work will put EVERY editor at a disadvantage."

The so-called democratization aside, how would you characterize the difference between the views of Apple and their competitors?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Bill DavisRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 4:16:42 am

[Walter Soyka] "The so-called democratization aside, how would you characterize the difference between the views of Apple and their competitors?"

Fair question.

When I see the current products of Apple's competitors products I think they fall into two general categories.

Either they look like the same companies products from 5-7 years ago (productivity software, computer form-factors, etc)

Or, increasingly, they look like the other companies "take" on recent Apple design standards.

Of can someone show me an example of another companies devices or services that have spawned a global rush to copy the Apple forms on the same scale as the iPhone, the iPad and App store models?

At least since Jony Ive came on board thats pretty much been the way it's been to my eye.

I'm happy to entertain examples of how other tech companies have re-set the worlds design expectations similarly.

There are probably some in areas like video game design that I'm not aware of. But not so much in consumer electronics that I've seen.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Richard HerdRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 7:46:07 am

[Michael Gissing] "prosumers"

Do you editorgeeks remember when the HVX200 hit the market?
Do you EGs remember when red hit the market?
XDCAM?
How about the weird "rosetta" interregnum?
Does anyone, anywhere remember (Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?) AIC?

It's a real question.

Follow up: Where are we now?


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Leo HansRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Nov 30, 2012 at 11:56:56 pm

…neither of all the happy FCPX users.

I am an Avid/FCP editor since 1998 and I am very happy with FCPX, like many other editors.

Leo Hans
Editor AVID - Final Cut Pro
http://www.leohans.com


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Richard HerdRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 3:12:50 am

[Joseph W. Bourke] "FCP8"

I didn't 8. I needed 7.5.

I needed:
*Optical Flow
*Magnetism(^1)
*Compound Clips

I didn't know it at the time.

1. By magnetism I mean video and audio embedded in the same GUI representation.


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Oliver PetersRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Nov 30, 2012 at 11:29:59 pm

[Michael Sanders] ""If I'd listened to what my customers wanted, I would have given them faster horses""

In fact he never said it. He may have felt that way, but there is no evidence that he actually ever said it. In fact, if you review the history, Ford's lack of attention to customer interest - building only one model in one color - nearly killed the company early on. Buick and others did a better job addressing customer needs and wants and captured market share in those days.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Andrew KimeryRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 12:32:04 am

Even in 2012 if I need to plow a field and have the choice between a horse and a car I think the horse will win.




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Bill DavisRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 2:31:49 am

[Andrew Kimery] "Even in 2012 if I need to plow a field and have the choice between a horse and a car I think the horse will win."

Yeah, but if you have the choice between the horse and a tractor - you lose - and if you try to compete with the guy with a tractor with a horse, you're likely to lose everything.

So the question relative to this debate is simple.

Is the software being discussed (FCP-X) fundamentally suitable for the task it's generally being asked to accomplish.

Not "more perfect" or "less perfect" than it's competitors - but functionally suitable.

FCP-X is an extremely competent general purpose video editing program.

This fact is now indisputable.

We're all arguing around the margins of that fact asking is it the best choice for (Insert KIND of editing here) - but not whether it's a stable effective editing program.

Everyone here understands that it might not be the BEST one for a particular editor who has particular needs. But the weight of evidence is overwhelming. And irrefutable.

It cuts video and audio and assembles the same into finished projects really, really well.

Period.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Andrew KimeryRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 3:13:09 am

[Bill Davis] "Yeah, but if you have the choice between the horse and a tractor - you lose - and if you try to compete with the guy with a tractor with a horse, you're likely to lose everything."
Unless you are some place where fuel and/or spare parts are prohibitively expensive then draft animals still rule the fields. My point, which you partially reiterated, remains the same though. It's not a one size fits all world like apparently misappropriated quips lead us to believe.

I agree with Michael Gissing that FCPX's primary demographic was servered starting with the initial release and since then Apple has been spending time tending to it's secondary market.




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Chris HarlanRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 3:55:45 am

[Andrew Kimery] "I agree with Michael Gissing that FCPX's primary demographic was servered starting with the initial release and since then Apple has been spending time tending to it's secondary market.
"


Me too. I think they hit their target audience running, and everything else is an afterthought.


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Bill DavisRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 4:28:55 am

[Andrew Kimery] " agree with Michael Gissing that FCPX's primary demographic was servered starting with the initial release and since then Apple has been spending time tending to it's secondary market."

Well, I just see it differently.

I see it as Apple stripping down everything and rebuilding it from the foundation. They released it as soon as it was "serviceable" since only in the markeplace could they shake out all the issues in real world use. Since that time they've shored it up, filled it out, fixed lots of issues and bugs, and generally continued to work their way through the implementation of a whole list of capabilities that the new architecture made fundamentally possible.

I don't think they EVER actually thought in terms of Primary and Secondary users except in the sense that they needed to bring primary functions on line before they tweaked the important but less critical elements that appeal to smaller segments of the market. Witness basic audio capabilities in V1 - verses Roles coming along later.

All the foundational stuff like AV Foundation, Core Video, Core Graphics, and the switch to a full on metadata approach to all of the programs essential operations was a massive undertaking. And that investment is just now beginning to enable new approaches vis a vis X Multicam.

I don't think it's reasonable to underestimate both the cost and the potential of the core teardown as a bold move.

The new architecture is precisely what I suspect has let it evolve more quickly in terms of features and operations than Legacy ever did.

But it was also all too easy to perceive that process as "dumbing down" pro features rather than just replacing the underpinnings and building up from there.

We'll eventually know based on IF they stop adding back pro level features. But stuff like direct RED camera support in 10.06 tends to belie that they didn't always have rebuilding firmly toward pro users in mind from the get go.

FWIW.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Michael GissingRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 5:03:27 am

Once again the discussion drifts into the usual self serving entrenched opinions. The original claim of this thread was that Apple blazed new trails by not listening to customers.

Firstly the trail blazing is overblown, a common problem here. More important is that I can't see an argument that supports the idea that Apple are not listening and reacting to customers. Clearly they are. I just wanted to point out that some people on the Cow think they are at the center of that customer focus but I think that is a smug, self congratulatory bubble, something that many of us were in two years ago when we were all so sure Apple were about to make an awesome NLE just for us.

Few of us are that important to Apple. They are tossing some tasty bones and like faithfully puppies we follow, keenly hoping for more scraps from the great table.


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Chris HarlanRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 5:21:24 am

[Michael Gissing] "Few of us are that important to Apple. They are tossing some tasty bones and like faithfully puppies we follow, keenly hoping for more scraps from the great table."

No. You misunderstand. It is the future of the whole world and the beginning of the Singularity. Gods are among us. Ask yourself--do you ever--I mean ever--see Mecca and Cupertino in the same place, at the same time, at the same party? I though not.


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Richard HerdRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 7:57:55 am

[Bill Davis] "fixed lots of issues and bugs"

Ok. here it is. PIOPs suck. Folks in this forum (the three blind mice) arguing for PIOPs though they don't use X are notcool -- the extent to which Apple heard their arguments.

Simple easy point: If you ain't usin' the software, stop "improving it" from your (malapropisms) point of view of "theory" guised actually as speculation. It was laughable when the three blind mice said piops were impossible because of the codebase and then they b begging blindly for siops. Threeblindmice, if you ain't usin it. go away.

I.M. feeling better now.
deep breath.
moving on...we need single payer health care.


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Aindreas GallagherRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 3:37:51 pm

Oh no Richard, they're not finished. Not nearly. We're going to find the next part of FCPX you really like, and we're going to whisper in apple's ear until they take it away from you. I'm personally looking to destroy key framing.

It's all true, people who know nothing (hey as you point out Oliver Peters can't export right? Who is that guy anyway? Amirite?) but all these stupid people are going to wreck your software out of ignorance, and the sheer glee of seeing the look of misery on your face. There are meetings about it at three blind mice HQ. I've attended a few. There's headed notepaper titled "let's get Richard"

We're going to get you Richard.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Bill DavisRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 6:13:46 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "We're going to get you Richard."

First, Yippee! (that probably means the shovels full of antagonism move on from me even if just for a little while? Thanks Richard. Nice to have a break.!)

Second, Let me state right up front that I truly appreciate Oliver's many strengths. He holds the same kind of slot as a Contributing Editor for national level publications that I was lucky enough to hold down for a decade - and it's not all that easy to demonstrate the kind of consistency and dependability to write on deadline for a national audience, so I totally appreciate his needs to understand things beyond the surface of the debate. Also, I know that anyone who espouses points of view in public sets themselves up to get hammered regularly by those who enjoy being the ONE to prove the "expert" wrong.

That said, I'm trying to think back to remember the last time Oliver posted anything about X other than some small thing he found that DIDN'T work to his taste.

Uncovering flaws so they can be addressed is one thing. But it's also quite possible to "self-talk" oneself into a place where all you're doing is holding a magnifying glass to a things flaws and the risk is that you stop noticing what works well about it.

I've used the tortured analogy of Cindy Crawfords dermatologist before. But If all one is doing is looking for blemishes - well, you're risk overlooking a WHOLE bunch of the stuff that might be more representative of the subject at hand.

Just sayin'.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Oliver PetersRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 6:37:25 pm

[Bill Davis] "That said, I'm trying to think back to remember the last time Oliver posted anything about X other than some small thing he found that DIDN'T work to his taste."

Actually, what I've been posting lately has nothing to do with taste, but rather things that simply DON'T work. I appreciate that I may be throwing more at the app than it can handle. That's cool and the reason I post is to see if someone else has run into the same or to understand what I might be doing wrong.

I certainly agree that X isn't for everyone and every type of project. Quite frankly my attitude towards it can be tracked as sort of a bell curve. I'm on the downside of that curve, having been hampered - not helped - by the app on several recent projects. I just don't find it to be such a huge leap forward. Rather just different for the sake of being different. Sometimes that matches the expectation of the user, but sometimes it doesn't.

I see this forum as precisely THE place for slings and arrows. It makes everyone rethink their positions, myself included. It's a good antidote to group-think.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Chris HarlanRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 7:40:54 pm

[Bill Davis] "That said, I'm trying to think back to remember the last time Oliver posted anything about X other than some small thing he found that DIDN'T work to his taste."

No. I think if you were honest about it--and that is the key word here--what you'd be trying to remember is the last time Oliver posted anything about X other than the issues that were potentially keeping him from making his deadlines. Why don't you check that out? Of course, that's only been in the last couple of weeks, but memories are what they are.


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Andrew KimeryRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 2, 2012 at 9:32:27 pm

[Bill Davis] "I don't think they EVER actually thought in terms of Primary and Secondary users except in the sense that they needed to bring primary functions on line before they tweaked the important but less critical elements that appeal to smaller segments of the market. Witness basic audio capabilities in V1 - verses Roles coming along later."

You have to have a demographic in mind first before you can even start building the program and I think we can all agree that FCPX is aiming at a broader demographic than FCP Legend, Avid MC or Adobe PPro.




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Joseph W. BourkeRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 5:58:06 pm

Right - the tractor - from the folks that brought us the Dust Bowl!

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Joseph OwensRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 3, 2012 at 9:42:13 pm

[Bill Davis] "It cuts video and audio and assembles the same into finished projects really, really well."

And the difference between this and the conjectural "horse" would be....???

jPo

"I always pass on free advice -- its never of any use to me" Oscar Wilde.


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Richard HerdRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 12:27:03 am

funny.

I just read this today, by the Deuce.

http://www.philanthropyroundtable.org/topic/donor_intent/henry_ford_2_lette...


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Rafael AmadorRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 11:19:02 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "I made this point a while ago, but I wonder at Apple's pricing here, and whether the new 299 figure represents a realisation that they can take an amazon style approach to the market. In that they are engaged in market decimation through pricing, simply because they can. "
Well, yes, the application is cheap, but when you realize that you need a new system (computer, HDs, monitoring) to make it work and the price and time for "wrapping your mind around the new paradigma, you realize that the 700 bucks you save in the application are peanuts.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Bernhard GriningerRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 11:13:25 am

Hello,

the role of consumer demands and innovations is scientifically well researched.

FCP-X is what Clayton M. Christensen has called a Disruptive Innovation.

See his book The Innovator's Dilemma.

A Disruptive Innovation not only introduces an innovation -
every successful company need to do so - but also shifts
the valuation criteria of the market itself.

One interesting point of Disruptive Innovations is, that at their introduction
they can't compete with established premium products, but within a niche they
evolve much more faster that the established competition that is already over-engineered.

I would recommend to read this book to everyone who wonders about Apple's product strategy – for Steve Jobs it was one of the most influential books he ever read!

Clayton M. Christensen: The Innovator's Dilemma


Best regards,
Bernhard


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Walter SoykaRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 4:29:39 pm

[Bernhard Grininger] "One interesting point of Disruptive Innovations is, that at their introduction they can't compete with established premium products, but within a niche they evolve much more faster that the established competition that is already over-engineered."

See also the economic theory postulated by Alexander Gerschenkron called "the advantage of backwardness."

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Steven BradfordRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 5:29:50 pm

I think this quote makes a point opposite of the one you intend.

Henry Ford claimed to "know" what was best for customers. And then General Motors gave the customers what they wanted in the 20's and very nearly killed FMC. It took many decades for Ford to recover from Henry's wisdom, and it never came close to regaining its once commanding market share.

Steven Bradford
http://www.3dstereomedia.com 3D company I've worked with since 1990
http://www.seanet.com/~bradford/ my personal home page, find my greenscreen page there.
http://www.seattlefilminstitute.com the school I teach at.


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Chris HarlanRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 7:56:24 pm

[Steven Bradford] "I think this quote makes a point opposite of the one you intend.

Henry Ford claimed to "know" what was best for customers. And then General Motors gave the customers what they wanted in the 20's and very nearly killed FMC. It took many decades for Ford to recover from Henry's wisdom, and it never came close to regaining its once commanding market share.
"


Agreed. And, of course there is no evidence that he ever actually said it. True, his grandson quoted it once in a conference call, but that was after it became a popular aphorism. Apparently, you can't find examples of usage before the beginning of the 21st Century. You'd think if such a plum actually existed it would have been in wide use during most of the 20th Century.


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Tim WilsonRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 1, 2012 at 9:13:32 pm

This reminds me of PT Barnum's famous quote, “There's a sucker born every minute “ -- which he never said. It was said ABOUT him by a competitor, to the effect that only a sucker could take Barnum seriously, and there must be a ton of suckers for Barnum to be so successful.

More successful than the competitor of course, because HIS name I don't remember....

Tim Wilson
Vice President, Editor-in-Chief
Creative COW



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Steven BradfordRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 2, 2012 at 12:36:55 am

Well-- There is also another classic: "History is Bunk."

Steven Bradford
http://www.3dstereomedia.com 3D company I've worked with since 1990
http://www.seanet.com/~bradford/ my personal home page, find my greenscreen page there.
http://www.seattlefilminstitute.com the school I teach at.


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Chris HarlanRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 2, 2012 at 1:10:17 am

[Steven Bradford] "Well-- There is also another classic: "History is Bunk.""

Indeed. That one he apparently did say. I couldn't follow your link, but I found this one interesting enough: http://www.science20.com/chatter_box/henry_ford_quote_history_bunk-79505


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Tom SeftonRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 3, 2012 at 4:08:06 pm

Hang on. Man invents first ever car and with it changes the lives of every man, woman and child around the world inexplicably and forever.

Men and women invent FCPX and it changes a few thousand video editors lives around the world and allows millions more to have a go for £299. FCPX doesn't deliver anything more than other top NLE available today, does it?

It's just not the same.


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Oliver PetersRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 3, 2012 at 4:32:27 pm

[Tom Sefton] "Hang on. Man invents first ever car and with it changes the lives of every man, woman and child around the world inexplicably and forever."

Of course, Ford didn't invent the first car, either.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Oliver PetersRe: Henry Ford on FCP X
by on Dec 3, 2012 at 4:38:25 pm

Although... Since Ford did take others' ideas and expanded upon their production through the moving assembly line, there is a good analogy between Ford's creation and Apple's with FCP X.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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