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Avid crossgrade comparison

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Oliver PetersAvid crossgrade comparison
by on Nov 12, 2012 at 7:59:29 pm

Avid has dropped the price of their FCP "legacy" crossgrade to Media Composer offer. For a limited time, it's $999 until 12/14/12 (a $500 drop). For those of you sitting on the fence wondering about what to do after FCP 7, here's an interesting dollars and cents comparison between FCP X (plus add-ons) and Media Composer.

If you do the crossgrade, you keep FCP 7 and you get Media Composer, plus third party tools (Avid FX, Sorenson Squeeze and Avid DVD). For the premise of this exercise, also assume that you would add for free, the Automatic Duck tools to maintain some compatibility with FCP 7 timelines. I won't belabor the issues of whether you think one NLE is better than they other. As far as I'm concerned, that's more subjective than anything else.

The second qualifier is that not everyone has the need for all of these features. I'm merely adding up the tools that you would have to combine in order to equal what you get in the Media Composer package. So, assuming you purchased Media Composer 6.5 on the crossgrade, this is what you'd have to buy on the FCP X side to put together a comparable toolkit.

FCP X, Motion, Compressor, EDL-X, Xto7, 7toX, Event Manager X, X2Pro, Slice-X and Dashwood Stereo3D Toolbox. That's $2,065. It's $765 if you forget about Stereo3D.

Food for thought.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Michael GissingRe: Avid crossgrade comparison
by on Nov 12, 2012 at 8:58:27 pm

The point of the FCPX bundle of software starting to add up to a cost comparison is interesting. Looking at Avid, CS6 and FCPX from a cost point of view is less important than workflow elegance and compatibility at my end of the post process. It does however become a factor for editors choosing an edit system. I have told editors that if they go FCPX, then they also have a responsibility to purchase the third party tools to provide core outputs like AAF/OMF, EDLs.

So when the price difference is down to a few hundred dollars, other factors can be more fairly compared. However, Avid will not have a viable business model if it tries to chase Apple down that rabbit hole.


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Aindreas GallagherRe: Avid crossgrade comparison
by on Nov 12, 2012 at 9:03:52 pm

[Michael Gissing] "Avid will not have a viable business model if it tries to chase Apple down that rabbit hole."

Apple - the amazon of editing - it's one area where they can act to destroy the market with pricing.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Tim WilsonRe: Avid crossgrade comparison
by on Nov 12, 2012 at 9:05:03 pm

[Michael Gissing] "However, Avid will not have a viable business model if it tries to chase Apple down that rabbit hole."

If by "rabbit hole" you mean breaking compatibility with the entire installed base of an ostensible market leader for the sake of a $299 app, I think we're safe. LOL

Note too that Avid is reviving the offer to upgrade from previous versions of Avid software to Symphony 6.5 for $999.


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Gary BettanRe: Avid crossgrade comparison
by on Nov 12, 2012 at 9:14:14 pm

Avid is actually running 2 promotions. side by side, for $999

1) Crossgrade to Media Composer for $999. This is aimed at the millions of FCP7 editors who have been abandoned by Apple. They can go to FCPX, Adobe , Avid or any other NLE. At $999 Avid is going back after these folks, who would not buy it for $1,499.

2) Avid editors can upgrade to Symphony for $999. This is really a great offer because it goes back to Xpress DV, Xpress Pro, and any version of Avid Media Composer. The $999 Symphony upgrade includes Boris Contnuum Complete, worth over a thousand bucks itself. Symphony 6.5 is the same code base as Media Composer 6.5. It adds Symphony color correction tools and universal mastering. Universal mastering requires Nitris DX hardware.

For more info on these promos you can check out this email Videoguys sent out http://goo.gl/L3jNq

We hope to have an FAQ Guide posted shortly.

Gary

COW members get 5% OFF with Coupon COW5OFF

http://www.videoguys.com 800 323-2325 | We are the video editing and production experts!


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Tim WilsonRe: Avid crossgrade comparison
by on Nov 12, 2012 at 9:19:21 pm

OT, but I gotta ask you Gary, the lights back on for you guys yet?


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Michael GissingRe: Avid crossgrade comparison
by on Nov 12, 2012 at 9:52:30 pm

*


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Gary BettanRe: Avid crossgrade comparison
by on Nov 12, 2012 at 9:54:05 pm

YES! I got my power back at home on Saturday. 12 days in the dark.

We never lost power at Videoguys. Or internet. Unfortunately our phones kept dropping out. We are now 100% operational.

Long Island really got creamed by the storm. The local power authority (LIPA) was not prepared and our infrastructure has not been properly maintained. Are you ready for this - they are still using COBOL on Mainframes to run the power grid!!!

Special thanks to all the crews that drove in from all over the midwest and east coast to help us out. It is greatly appreciated.

Gary

COW members get 5% OFF with Coupon COW5OFF

http://www.videoguys.com 800 323-2325 | We are the video editing and production experts!


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Oliver PetersRe: Avid crossgrade comparison
by on Nov 12, 2012 at 9:41:10 pm

[Michael Gissing] " Looking at Avid, CS6 and FCPX from a cost point of view is less important than workflow elegance and compatibility at my end of the post process"

Completely agree. In the conforming/interoperability arena, Media Composer and FCP 7 are still very hard to beat. FCP X still has a very long way to go, even with the various third party tools. I've done it and it requires quite a few workarounds. Not for the faint of heart.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Chris HarlanRe: Avid crossgrade comparison
by on Nov 13, 2012 at 5:29:47 am

I guess I'll add to this by letting anyone who doesn't know, that you can download a fully functional trial version from Avid if you so desire. I have to say, I've been enjoying my time back on it.


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Shane RossRe: Avid crossgrade comparison
by on Nov 13, 2012 at 2:45:55 pm

I'm curious why Motion was added to this list. There's nothing comparable in Avid MC or Symphony.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Rich RubaschRe: Avid crossgrade comparison
by on Nov 13, 2012 at 3:01:11 pm

Scary thing for us is we are all still Snow Leopard and cautious to move headlong into Lion (then Mountain Lion?). What is the future of the MacOS and how it relates to these high end editing packages? How about plug ins? Compatibility?

I have 6 MacPro systems with Kona cards all running Snow Leopard and FCP 7. Dangerous waters ahead....

But I'm an old AVID guy so it is tempting to go back to my roots...assuming they will be around for a while.

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media Inc.
Video Production, Post, Studio Sound Stage
Founder/President/Editor/Designer/Animator
http://www.tiltmedia.com


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Chris HarlanRe: Avid crossgrade comparison
by on Nov 13, 2012 at 3:12:32 pm

[Shane Ross] "I'm curious why Motion was added to this list. There's nothing comparable in Avid MC or Symphony."

Shane, I don't know how you use Motion, but for me the combo of Animatte and Red (AvidFX) offer quite an overlap with Motion.


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Oliver PetersRe: Avid crossgrade comparison
by on Nov 13, 2012 at 3:21:29 pm

[Shane Ross] "I'm curious why Motion was added to this list. There's nothing comparable in Avid MC or Symphony."

As Chris pointed out - AvidFX. Not necessarily a direct equivalent, but it adds advanced motion graphics and compositing features, plus a lot more effects filters into the MC environment. It also has a big leg up in that it's integrated within the application. Note that "send to Motion" was lost with X.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Shane RossRe: Avid crossgrade comparison
by on Nov 13, 2012 at 3:28:55 pm

Ah, yes. I forgot about the Boris Red Avid FX. I never used it, still don't. I can't grasp it.

I used Motion for making particles, moves on stills, titles,

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Avid crossgrade comparison
by on Nov 13, 2012 at 3:20:56 pm

And that seems to the the pattern.

When you used to work on Avid, and then go back to Avid, you find a nicely updated package with an adjusted price, and a modicum of familiarity.

If Avid would have been price competitive during The Legend of FCP™ chapter, would you be here today?

Just curious.


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Oliver PetersRe: Avid crossgrade comparison
by on Nov 13, 2012 at 3:28:53 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "If Avid would have been price competitive during The Legend of FCP™ chapter, would you be here today?"

That's a good point. Speaking from my own experience, I still prefer the versatility and editing experience of working in FCP7 to that of MC, X or PPro.

I contend that if Apple sold off the FCP/FCS package to someone else, who developed it into a 64-bit app (with cleaned-up cosmetics, but no changes to the functionality and user experience) - that they would lead the marketplace over ALL NLEs.

Ain't ever gonna happen ;-)

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Chris HarlanRe: Avid crossgrade comparison
by on Nov 13, 2012 at 5:53:05 pm

[Oliver Peters] "[Jeremy Garchow] "If Avid would have been price competitive during The Legend of FCP™ chapter, would you be here today?"

That's a good point. Speaking from my own experience, I still prefer the versatility and editing experience of working in FCP7 to that of MC, X or PPro.

I contend that if Apple sold off the FCP/FCS package to someone else, who developed it into a 64-bit app (with cleaned-up cosmetics, but no changes to the functionality and user experience) - that they would lead the marketplace over ALL NLEs.

Ain't ever gonna happen ;-)"


I totally agree with Oliver on this. I'm not returning to Avid in the sense that it once was my home. I used to use it some, but my own early NLE machines were Montage, D/Vision (Edit*), and Speed Razor. I've never regarded Avid as the mothership; it was just another NLE that I had to learn to use, and I have long resented the mistaken cosmology that many Avid-only folk share, thinking that they, alone, were present at the birth of the Universe.

FCP has never been, for me, a poor man's Avid. I saw it as the best, most flexible editing software ever available. If it had a future, I'd still see it that way. I chose it--in fact, I switched platforms for it--because I really liked it, not because it was an affordable, near-Avid experience.

That's not to say that there aren't elements of MC or Premiere that I find superior to Legacy. Keyboard trimming is exceptional on the MC, as is its binning logic and structure; I really like that the bin is the basic structure level and not the project. Premiere has an interface that's even more fluid as Legacy, which bugs some, but thrills me.


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Avid crossgrade comparison
by on Nov 13, 2012 at 5:56:01 pm

[Chris Harlan] "I chose it--in fact, I switched platforms for it--because I really liked it, not because it was an affordable, near-Avid experience. "

When did you switch completely to using FCP for ALL of your projects?


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Chris HarlanRe: Avid crossgrade comparison
by on Nov 13, 2012 at 6:24:42 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "[Chris Harlan] "I chose it--in fact, I switched platforms for it--because I really liked it, not because it was an affordable, near-Avid experience. "

When did you switch completely to using FCP for ALL of your projects?
"


Hard to say; there was a bit of a crossfade. I think I bought my first Decklink/G5 combo in 2004. I'd been dabbling with FCP for 2 or 3 years previously, but in no way exclusively. I was probably all FCP by 2006, though I would still occasionally sit at other machines.



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Jeremy GarchowRe: Avid crossgrade comparison
by on Nov 13, 2012 at 6:27:25 pm

So Final Cut Studio 1 or there abouts?


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Chris HarlanRe: Avid crossgrade comparison
by on Nov 13, 2012 at 6:37:29 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "So Final Cut Studio 1 or there abouts?

"


No. The first version I ever used was 2. I don't really remember if the 1st version I owned was 3 or 4. Probably 4. And that was in concert with a Blackmagic card. I definitely waited till broadcast i/o was solid before buying in.


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Avid crossgrade comparison
by on Nov 13, 2012 at 6:54:53 pm

[Oliver Peters] "that they would lead the marketplace over ALL NLEs."

FCP8.

...what might have been...


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Tim WilsonRe: Avid crossgrade comparison
by on Nov 13, 2012 at 11:18:12 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "FCP8.

...what might have been..."


What "might have been" is that FCP 8 would be exactly the same damn thing that FCP has been since 2005, when the last new structural feature, multicam, was added. Since then, it's pretty much just formats, and even Pro Res came four years later than DNxHD.

For all that I can be cranky in posts -- I mean, who posts when they're happy, right? LOL -- I'm actually a very positive, optimistic guy...but I have absolutely zero idea where anybody got the idea that anything big and new would have happened this time. Maybe because it HADN'T in 2007 or 2009, so in 2011, we were finally due?

Maybe I have a different perspective because all I do is read posts, and I do read ALL OF THEM, but in even numbered years, people howled that there was no release, FCP must be dying, Apple doesn't care....then in the odd-numbered years, a release would show up, and people would say the exact same thing -- nothing here, FCP must be dying, Apple doesn't care.

All of which got fired up again every time a new release of iTunes broke FCP.

Pro Res in 2007 was obviously a big deal, and breathed new life into what appeared to otherwise be a moribund development enterprise...but by 2009, people here were already talking about looking for more modern alternatives.

Now, if by "FCP 8, what might have been," you mean FCP 7 plus 64 bits, well, yeah, that'd be a cool enough FCP 8. But otherwise, do you really think that Apple had been focusing on FCPX since 2005 and THAT's why nothing much but Pro Res happened since then?

On the flip side, I'm still bullish on FCPX...if you can stand working on a Mac LOL....but FCP 8? My prediction for what might have been is that the bear might still have been hibernating.

This actually makes another interesting thread -- what MIGHT have been for FCP 8? Both realistically what it might have been, and we WISHED it might have been....


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Avid crossgrade comparison
by on Nov 14, 2012 at 12:09:30 am

You are preaching to the choir. Didn't we ask for this?

I was commenting on Oliver's summation:

[Oliver Peters] "I contend that if Apple sold off the FCP/FCS package to someone else, who developed it into a 64-bit app (with cleaned-up cosmetics, but no changes to the functionality and user experience) - that they would lead the marketplace over ALL NLEs."

What might have been if FCP8 was in someone else's control. That's all.


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Walter SoykaRe: Avid crossgrade comparison
by on Nov 14, 2012 at 12:33:19 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "If Avid would have been price competitive during The Legend of FCP™ chapter, would you be here today?"

I think I would have, even though I was a poster boy for FCP-because-it's-cheap adoption, starting my freelance career on a shoestring budget.

In all the talk of The Legend of FCP, there are two elements of history that are very easy to gloss over.

First, FCP's UI offered some advantages over Avid's. Sometimes the mouse is just faster (there, I said it!). Compositing in the timeline and manipulating the composite in the canvas was great. FCP was tactile in a way that we talk about touch apps today, and that really appealed to me (even though I'm a heavy hotkey user, too).

Second, while the Legend of FCP was rising in the early 2000s, there was the Nightmare of Avid across the aisle. There were dark days where Avid stopped listening to their customers, where Media Composer stagnated, and where bugs just never got squashed. They came out with some truly dreadful hardware (ask any Adrenaline owner). They never seem to have understood DS and probably squandered a gigantic opportunity there.

I do agree with your idea that FCP has become larger than life in our minds, but there were real reasons to choose it over Avid other than price as the legend was unfolding.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Chris HarlanRe: Avid crossgrade comparison
by on Nov 14, 2012 at 3:23:20 am

[Walter Soyka] "Sometimes the mouse is just faster (there, I said it!). "

You'll burn for that.

But, yes, I agree.

[Walter Soyka] "Second, while the Legend of FCP was rising in the early 2000s, there was the Nightmare of Avid across the aisle. There were dark days where Avid stopped listening to their customers, where Media Composer stagnated, and where bugs just never got squashed. They came out with some truly dreadful hardware (ask any Adrenaline owner). They never seem to have understood DS and probably squandered a gigantic opportunity there."

Yup. I think the nadir was around 2.8. There was a two year period around then, that MC--for single user, short form at least--just wasn't as good a piece of software.


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Ben McCarthyRe: Avid crossgrade comparison
by on Nov 16, 2012 at 8:55:41 pm

I think everyone's forgetting about the upgrade costs to Avid every 6 months somewhere in the vicinity of $500, with point upgrades that Avid calls features like being able to tick a checkbox for AMA importing without having to restart the computer.

Not saying that FCPX can be used on everything at the moment (reality TV, multiple cameras, manual grouping and sharing amongst a large number of editors and producers, comes to mind :(


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Oliver PetersRe: Avid crossgrade comparison
by on Nov 16, 2012 at 9:07:22 pm

[Ben McCarthy] "I think everyone's forgetting about the upgrade costs to Avid every 6 months somewhere in the vicinity of $500"

That's optional and up to the user. Price varies. A number of folks have suggested doing every other version and you actually only take a slight hit for doing that. It's also not every 6 months. Sometimes 6 months, sometimes a year. This past update (6 to 6.5) added the J2K codec and AS-02 export functionality (among other things). The latter is similar to FCP X adding MXF support, which will require the purchase of third party plug-in products.

Customarily software version updates are billable with most companies at the point and 1/2-point level. Right now that policy is an unknown with FCP X due to the App Store. What makes you think that when and if there's a 10.1, that you won't have to repurchase the app as a new program? As well as all the other third party add-ons? It's a complete unknown for now and Apple is simply leaving everyone in the dark.

[Ben McCarthy] "with point upgrades that Avid calls features like being able to tick a checkbox for AMA importing without having to restart the computer"

That's compete nonsense. You have never had to restart the computer when changing AMA settings. Relaunch the app. Yes. Reboot? That's just not true.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Ben McCarthyRe: Avid crossgrade comparison
by on Nov 17, 2012 at 3:53:31 am

Sorry your right, I meant restart Avid, almost as annoying as a computer restart...


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Oliver PetersRe: Avid crossgrade comparison
by on Nov 17, 2012 at 1:39:39 pm

[Ben McCarthy] "Sorry your right, I meant restart Avid, almost as annoying as a computer restart..."

While that part is true, you are changing a preference setting. Not uncommon with any software for preference changes to take affect with the next launch of the app. I was reacting to your premise that this was the main feature of a billable point upgrade. I felt that was a bit off the mark.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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David NotowitzRe: Avid crossgrade comparison
by on Nov 25, 2012 at 7:44:44 pm

Friends,
I need help –- a consultation. Who knows FCPX, Premiere, and Avid really well?

I've been using FCP since version 1.2… Yep. On FCP I've edited docs, CMXLs, corporate promos, educational videos, photo montages, weddings and bar mitzvahs… Output to files or DVD using Compressor & DVD Studio Pro. Sometimes Toast.

I've been using Apple's products since the Apple II+ !

Now we're at a major transition, trying to determine which system is best for our current needs, which are very specific. I'd love to find a sensible way to use FCPX, but not sure it can do what I need.

Anyone able to talk on the phone for a short while, listen as I describe the unique work we're doing, and then tell me which NLE would do it for us?

I'm not concerned about the money it will take to purchase the new systems -- I already own FCPX and I'll gladly buy one of the other editing systems -- it's the downtime needed to learn a new system and figure out all the idiosyncrasies that is the issue.

Thanks,
David

NCAVF, The National Center for Audio and Video Forensics
http://www.NCAVF.com


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