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10.0.6 a significant turning point.

COW Forums : Apple FCPX or Not: The Debate

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craig slattery10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 6, 2012 at 1:09:20 pm

Apologies in advance, I won't bore the creative cows on this thread every time I cut broadcast TV in X. That said, next week on 'The Culture Show' 50% of the program was cut in FCPX 10.0.6, including an interview in New York with legendary author Tom Wolfe ("Bonfire of the Vanities", and "The Right Stuff") the new 10.0.6 software is a great improvement on the software, lots of little improvements that make cutting in X even more pleasing. We are now encouraging the rest of the edit team to get up to speed with the software. I think personally with 10.0.6 we've reached a significant turning point.


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Walter SoykaRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 6, 2012 at 1:31:39 pm

[craig slattery] "Apologies in advance, I won't bore the creative cows on this thread every time I cut broadcast TV in X."

Nonsense -- please don't be shy. Speaking for myself, I've really enjoyed reading your posts and hope you continue!


[craig slattery] "I think personally with 10.0.6 we've reached a significant turning point."

What would you say are the most important changes with 10.0.6 that make it a turning point for your team?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Morten RanmarRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 6, 2012 at 6:25:44 pm

Yes, indeed it has improved - but it's still pretty much unusable in collaborative workflows across multiple suites : (

- No Parking Production -

2 x Finalcut Studio3, 2 x Prod. bundle CS6, 2 x MacPro, 2 x ioHD, Ethernet File Server w. X-Raid.... and FCPX on trial


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Michael SandersRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 6, 2012 at 7:31:20 pm

I've got a feeling that's high on Apple's agenda!

Michael Sanders
London Based DP/Editor


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Michael GissingRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 6, 2012 at 9:30:29 pm

Turning point depends on where you sit in the workflow. As someone who does grade & sound post, the significant moments have been third party software like X2Pro, Xto7 and da Vinci accepting FCPX XMLs.

I can see for editors this might be a significant release but a thread the other day said the RED workflow broke X2Pro audio export so until third parties can catch up it is actually not yet of such significance. Although Jeremy Garchow and I disagree about the relative strengths and weaknesses of relying on third parties to do core functionality, each FCPX release will often have a black period immediately after whilst third party software does public bug fixing.

Apple does deserve kudos for managing this release with regard to many third parties like AJA & Blackmagic, even if Matrox seems to have been caught out.


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craig slatteryRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 6, 2012 at 9:55:00 pm

[Michael Gissing] "As someone who does grade & sound post, the significant moments have been third party software like X2Pro, Xto7 and da Vinci accepting FCPX XMLs. "

X2Pro working brilliantly for us. I had a meeting with our dubbing mixer last week and he is loving audio coming out of X as apposed to the mess our OMFs presented him. Our tests with da Vinci, create no more issues than color, none as far as Im aware.


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Bret WilliamsRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 6, 2012 at 10:04:50 pm

I thought Color didn't offer anywhere near the true roundtrip that DaVinci does?


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craig slatteryRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 6, 2012 at 10:09:59 pm

[Bret Williams] "I thought Color didn't offer anywhere near the true roundtrip that DaVinci does?"

Sorry, I meant no more issues than going from FCP7 to Color, Ie X to DaVinci, 7 to color, no difference


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Jim GibertiRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 6, 2012 at 10:10:28 pm

I wish I could weigh in. We're in the midst of too many projects to update, hopefully next week.

Looking forward to progress.


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Jeremy GarchowRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 7, 2012 at 4:24:59 pm

[Morten Ranmar] "Yes, indeed it has improved - but it's still pretty much unusable in collaborative workflows across multiple suites : ("

How so?


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Morten RanmarRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 7, 2012 at 4:38:34 pm

Try saving events or projects to a shared drive. Not possible.
Try setting a shared storage as destination for transcoded media...

- No Parking Production -

2 x Finalcut Studio3, 2 x Prod. bundle CS6, 2 x MacPro, 2 x ioHD, Ethernet File Server w. X-Raid.... and FCPX on trial


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Keith KobyRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 7, 2012 at 5:24:37 pm

We are putting events and projects on the san using san locations. The media itself is elsewhere, centrally located, on the san and the option to copy the media into the event on import is turned off. We've had multiple x instances using the same media at the same time, but the san location containing the event and project folders with the dbs is only accessible to one editor at a time. It gives you a little message saying that the san location is in use by "userA" on "computerB" for example when you try to add the san location to a second x instance while it is open on the first.

So this is pretty much the same as 7. You'd have one user in a project at a time and no more, or you'd potentially save over top of each other. In X you have one user in an event or project at a time because of limitations on the db files. If you need to share an event or a project at the same time, export an xml and import it on the second station.

You could also duplicate the san location in the finder I think and then add the san location on the second computer.

It's no better or worse than 7 as far as project sharing goes on a san, at least for now. I hope that this will change in the future, but there are obvious hurdles to get over for this app to achieve it's full sharing potential (using a db that can be read by more than one user at a time for example).

This thing could really be great for collaboration some day though. I believe that it will get there. That is one reason that I'm really excited about it and pushing for us to use it. In some ways, I'll admit, I'm betting on it. The ceiling of this app is way higher than anything else out there.

Keith Koby
Sr. Director Post-Production Engineering
iNDEMAND NETWORKS
Howard TV!/Movies On Demand/iNDEMAND Pay-Per-View/iNDEMAND 3D


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James MortnerRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 7, 2012 at 6:28:27 pm

Hello Keith, just thought id ask:

[Keith Koby] "We are putting events and projects on the san using san locations. The media itself is elsewhere, centrally located, on the san and the option to copy the media into the event on import is turned off."

Does this imply the SAN locations aren't actually shared on Xsan or equivalent level? They are local to the edit bays?

Thanks in advance!
James


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Keith KobyRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 7, 2012 at 7:00:21 pm

Media is indeed on the same san volume as the "san locations". Here's an example of the relative path to the media and to the "project" or "san location".

Xsan Vol -> Media -> [Workgroup] -> [year date org folder] -> Project Media Folder
Xsan Vol -> Projects -> [Workgroup] -> fcpx projects -> [year date org folder] -> san location folder

The fcp7 projects folder is organized somewhat similarly inside of Xsan Vol/Projects:

Xsan Vol -> Projects -> [Workgroup] -> fcp7 projects -> [year data org folder] -> project files

Making sure that the media is organized centrally is imperative if you want to have it available to more applications than just fcp x (in our case 7, AE etc). You don't want users digging through other user's event db directory structures and moving files or not moving files.

I've been struggling a bit with how to describe this to editors as we introduce them to fcpx professionally. I found myself using a crutch like; "san location" in x = "project file" in 7. So when we create a san location, we name it with the same naming convention we would have used for an fcp7 project file.

I think it's a bit weird because if you weren't sharing the media and putting the projects on a san, you'd probably describe events and projects in X a bit differently. But it seems to work and it gets users past the idea that the brower/bins are separate from the timelines which is foreign at first encounter to x.

Keith Koby
Sr. Director Post-Production Engineering
iNDEMAND NETWORKS
Howard TV!/Movies On Demand/iNDEMAND Pay-Per-View/iNDEMAND 3D


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Christian FitzpatrickRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 14, 2012 at 8:13:53 am

Hey Keith,

We have just started testing MetaSAN with FCPX and we are definitely not getting any kind of result where FCPX tells us that another user is currently using the SAN location - at this time it would appear that we are very easily we are able to corrupt projects, obviously when they are simultaneously mounted on different machines - but worryingly, even when adding and removing the san location, exiting FCPX and then adding, editing and removing again on another machine.

Sometimes changes appear when made on the second machine, sometimes they don't.

What sort of SAN system are you using? and would you be willing to share your exact workflow for this here - we really need to get this sorted as project sharing is a complete disaster here at the moment. :)

Hope you can help mate,

Christian


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Keith KobyRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 14, 2012 at 12:32:21 pm

Hi Christian,

We haven't tried (intentionally) to add a san location that is already open and in use in 10.0.6, but I'll test that when I get to the office today. And we haven't passed a whole lot of projects back and forth with 10.0.6.

We are running a good old fashioned xsan volume (with xsan controllers). It's good that the app recognizes metasan as a san and lets you add san locations. It's really bad that you have the ability to add a san location at the same time. It sounds as if sometimes, you aren't really getting read write access to the db files and not writing the record that says a particular user on a particular station has control. Are you logging in as different users on the different stations?

The only issue that we've seen post update is that the import window doesn't show the contents of one of our volumes unless we unbind our OD and leave just AD binding. (golden triangle)

The one workflow in production at this time is relatively simple... Setup project on one station (import media, make 3D compound clips, format timeline etc), then, remove san location. Open san location on a second computer, play it down on the 3D monitor and surround sound setup, add elements, cut and fix. Then we export. We've forgone rendering and just play down during edit without rendering wherever possible. Export rendering (rendering on exporting a master file) has been really great so far in 10.0.6 - super fast.

I hope that helps. We are working on converting other workflows now that involve lots of graphics compositing and green screen. We are actually rebuilding some 3D animations that were created in AE over in motion to see if it's possible to make them "drop zoned" and then saved as fcp x templates. The objective is to create templates for this particular workflow where everything could be done inside of fcp x.

Keith Koby
Sr. Director Post-Production Engineering
iNDEMAND NETWORKS
Howard TV!/Movies On Demand/iNDEMAND Pay-Per-View/iNDEMAND 3D


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Jeremy GarchowRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 14, 2012 at 12:55:07 pm

I use metaSAN and fcpx.

You need to use ProjectStore with metaSAN.

It's easy and prevents mounting multiple SAN Locations on multiple machines. Requires v5 of metaSAN.


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Christian FitzpatrickRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 15, 2012 at 7:14:22 am

Hey Keith,

Thanks for the informative reply. Maybe us using MetaSAN and not an official XSAN setup is cause for the problem. Perhaps MetaSAN support for FCPX is lacking. . .I'm not sure, but either way it's a real pain for us. I am trying to have one central Event and Project directory to archive content in - i was of the misunderstanding that adding a SAN location would allow you to pull just one event or project out of that location at a time. Dickhead me *rollseyes*.

I have setup the MetaSAN ProjectStore, but the only way I see this working is mounting our other main SAN location with all our events and projects in it, moving the Project (and referenced event) from there to the Project store, working on it, then moving it back. At least if it's all moved within FCPX, then the unique identifiers for the project database etc. are kept intact. However I have no idea whether this will yet work. . .still testing that one.

Very Interested to see what happens if two users try and mount the same SAN location on your system Keith. Please do let me know if you can. Thanks.

Jeremy, how exactly are you utilising ProjectStore in your workflow and are you handing off projects to other editors to make changes on other machines?

Thanks so much guys, your experience and assistance with this really is invaluable. I do love FCPX, but there is only person in Australia who is a so called Apple Certified FCPX Professional and when I mentioned the word SAN, he really had no idea. . .

Thanks again.

Christian


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Jeremy GarchowRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 15, 2012 at 1:09:48 pm

[Christian Fitzpatrick] " I am trying to have one central Event and Project directory to archive content in - i was of the misunderstanding that adding a SAN location would allow you to pull just one event or project out of that location at a time."

An Event or Project can only be written to by one user at a time.

A San Location is literally a folder. It can be any folder at any level on your SAN.

You can load as many as you want at any given time.

Having one central Event and Project San Location would be the equivalent of having every single fcp7 project open at one time on your machine, i.e. not very practical.

[Christian Fitzpatrick] "I have setup the MetaSAN ProjectStore, but the only way I see this working is mounting our other main SAN location with all our events and projects in it, moving the Project (and referenced event) from there to the Project store, working on it, then moving it back. At least if it's all moved within FCPX, then the unique identifiers for the project database etc. are kept intact. However I have no idea whether this will yet work. . .still testing that one."

Please let me know a little but more about how you envision your fcpx projects being structured, and how you have them structured now.

With fcp7, there was generally one place for media. Of course ou didn't have to work this way, but each project had a folder in the "Final Cut Documents" folder. Fcpx works completely differently. Once you can grasp this difference, you will see that it's perhaps not so much of a "disaster", but as with any shared workflow it takes planning and thought.

You don't have to have one SAN Location per machine and put all the Events and Porjects in there. You can have as many as you want for whatever fits your workflow, and mount that SAN Location anywhere.

Xsan is different because it locks users out on a file level, and fcpx understands those permissions. With metasan, you have to use ProjectStore to "lockout" users from overwriting each other.

Fcpx will not mount read only "volumes" so if one user has a ProjectStore volume checked out and someone tries to mount it on another machine, X throws a warming saying it cannot be done. This is good as you don't want corruption,

[Christian Fitzpatrick] "Jeremy, how exactly are you utilising ProjectStore in your workflow and are you handing off projects to other editors to make changes on other machines?"

Dismount the San Location, return to the ProjectStore Volume to the system. On the other machine, mount the ProjectStore volume, and then add it as a San Location in fcpx.

Once you have added a location once, fcpx seems to remember it, so fcpx will mount the ProjectStore volumes automatically once remembered provided they have read and write capabilities.

If you tell us a little but more about your workflow, I can try and get more specific to your situation.

Have you used a San at all with any other nle in the past?


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Jeremy GarchowRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 14, 2012 at 1:12:41 pm

[Christian Fitzpatrick] "What sort of SAN system are you using? and would you be willing to share your exact workflow for this here - we really need to get this sorted as project sharing is a complete disaster here at the moment. :)
"


I sort of wrote about it here:

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/38998

Jeremy


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Jeremy GarchowRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 7, 2012 at 11:12:19 pm

[Morten Ranmar] "Try saving events or projects to a shared drive. Not possible. "

I guess you'd have to define "shared drive". We have 48TBs on the network and I can save to it, but it's a SAN and FCPX understands it.

If you are trying to run a NAS, then yes, you'll have to use Sparse Disk Images. My guess is that FCPX locks out NAS to prevent corruption which is probably a good thing.

[Morten Ranmar] "Try setting a shared storage as destination for transcoded media...
"


Yes, FCPX needs to be able to separate render files from the Project folders, too.

And I agree that more options are needed in terms of media management, but if you have a SAN and you have media that is accessible natively in FCPX (meaning no need to transcode) then the tools in FCPX are not too shabby for getting work done on multiple seats.

What is really nice about the structure is that there's no reconnecting. you simply mount the appropriate folder on any machine, and everything is connected.

For instance, if I copy project/event to local/portable storage, I can plug that in to any machine and it will mount with no issue (provided I know what I am doing with the media).

Jeremy


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Bill DavisRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 9, 2012 at 3:27:25 pm

[Morten Ranmar] "Yes, indeed it has improved - but it's still pretty much unusable in collaborative workflows across multiple suites : (

- No Parking Production -"


So are you indicating that the team cutting the USA show Leverage on it are forgoing a "collaborative workflow across multiple suites?"

http://www.apple.com/finalcutpro/in-action/electric/

Interesting opinion.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Morten RanmarRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 9, 2012 at 9:55:07 pm

Hi Bill - FCPX does offer basic collaboration through SAN locations - but for people like us who use NAS based workflows (we have a solution with Small Tree Network Server card) it is simply not useable, so for the moment we are still working on FCP7, and considering a move to CS6.

- No Parking Production -

2 x Finalcut Studio3, 2 x Prod. bundle CS6, 2 x MacPro, 2 x ioHD, Ethernet File Server w. X-Raid.... and FCPX on trial


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Jeremy GarchowRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 9, 2012 at 10:07:30 pm

[Morten Ranmar] "Hi Bill - FCPX does offer basic collaboration through SAN locations - but for people like us who use NAS based workflows (we have a solution with Small Tree Network Server card) it is simply not useable, so for the moment we are still working on FCP7, and considering a move to CS6."

Small Tree says this: http://www.small-tree.com/v/vspfiles/files/pdfs/NoMiracleToUsingFinalCutPro...


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Chris HarlanRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 9, 2012 at 11:01:17 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Small Tree says this: http://www.small-tree.com/v/vspfiles/files/pdfs/NoMiracleToUsingFinalCutPro....."

I do enjoy the fact that the extremely large illustrative photo for that X article is a guy sitting in front of FCP 7.


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Jeremy GarchowRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 9, 2012 at 11:17:40 pm

Certainly not the best sales pitch.


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Morten RanmarRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 10, 2012 at 7:44:32 am

The fact that the image shows an image in front of legacy, can be directly translates to the real world. Though we all want to, and try to embrace FCPX in our daily work, the fact that non-user-friendly solutions, like creating disc partitions keeps us away from it many times. Just like most of us wouldn't accept having a car that needed to be push started every time we wanted to go for a ride...

- No Parking Production -

2 x Finalcut Studio3, 2 x Prod. bundle CS6, 2 x MacPro, 2 x ioHD, Ethernet File Server w. X-Raid.... and FCPX on trial


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Bill DavisRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 10, 2012 at 5:32:53 pm

I'm just going to suggest that none of you must have ever worked directly in advertising or been around publishing very much.

In that real world, you're extremely lucky if what the art department does in layout directly relates to your copy.

Don't get me wrong, they try tremendously hard to do things right. But the vast majority of the time they're looking out for THEIR job - which is to make something visually appealing and attract readers to the page.

Disconnects between art and copy are so common as to be the norm.

This is coming from a guy who owned an advertising agency for more than a decade and who was a contributing editor for a magazine for a similar period.

So sorry, but this part of the thread in nothing but another example of someone (Chris H. here) looking to push the facts to suit their worldview.

Take just a second to LOOK at the photo. Yep, real editors, when the photog show up are ALWAYS working at a desk without a single scrap of paper, pencil, stain, or coffee cup, and with every cable perfectly dressed. Right?

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Jim GibertiRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 10, 2012 at 7:34:19 pm

[Bill Davis] "I'm just going to suggest that none of you must have ever worked directly in advertising or been around publishing very much.

In that real world, you're extremely lucky if what the art department does in layout directly relates to your copy.
"


What kind of ad shops have you been involved with Bill?
I'm owner and creative director of one and what you describe is more like anarchy, and a pretty shitty agency.

Everything we do, whether it's design for web or TV or film or print are, of course, all integrated -concepts, copy and production.

A creative job would never leave a designer let alone my shop without seamless integration of concept, copy and visuals.

That's what any good creative director insures.

I've had many writers, designers and editors work under me and whether they were top talent from around the country or interns in school I've never worked with one that didn't understand this basic concept.


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Bill DavisRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 11, 2012 at 6:07:05 am

[Jim Giberti] "What kind of ad shops have you been involved with Bill?
I'm owner and creative director of one and what you describe is more like anarchy, and a pretty shitty agency."


As you well know, Jim the chance of a full blown advertising agency being involved in a story like the one referenced is slim to none.

This isn't an ad - it's editorial. (tho I know the distinction is often blurred these days!)

For a national level ad - particularly one supported by a robust ad buy - the higher the level of professionalism and quality you and I would expect in the accompanying photo.

But this publication is advertorial at best.

The story might be about FCP-X - but the accompanying "illustration" which never even purports in the caption to be the people or even the agency referenced by the story.

I spent more than a decade as a contributing editor to a national circulation magazine. I've written way more than 100 articles that were accompanied by various types of art and photography.

And I know a disconnect between copy and art when I see one.

And if that isn't enough, I did a quick web check on Small Tree Designs - the company referenced - it's located on the first floor of a two story office building facing a freeway in Oakdale MN.

How does that square up with the view out the window in that photo to your eye?

FWIW.


Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Jim GibertiRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 11, 2012 at 7:52:17 am

[Bill Davis] "As you well know, Jim the chance of a full blown advertising agency being involved in a story like the one referenced is slim to none. "

I guess I don't know that or anything about the article.

I was just referencing your comment: "In that real world, you're extremely lucky if what the art department does in layout directly relates to your copy." and I only think of art departments in agency context

If you were talking about an art dept in a magazine then I have no point of reference and cede the floor.


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Chris HarlanRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 11, 2012 at 9:06:22 am

[Bill Davis] "o sorry, but this part of the thread in nothing but another example of someone (Chris H. here) looking to push the facts to suit their worldview.

Take just a second to LOOK at the photo. Yep, real editors, when the photog show up are ALWAYS working at a desk without a single scrap of paper, pencil, stain, or coffee cup, and with every cable perfectly dressed. Right?
"


WTF? You are one crazy mofo, Bill. Somehow my pointing out a small bit of irony, is "another example of someone (Chris H. here) looking to push the facts to suit their worldview." I swear, there is something seriously wrong with you.


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Bill DavisRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 11, 2012 at 5:26:28 pm

What's "wrong" with me is that I don't accept BS arguments.

You're the guy who popped up with the foolish opinion that because the photo illustration over the article showed FCP7 rather than X that it meant that the article's author was promoting X but using 7.

All I did was point out the fact that the art over the article was a general illustration - not some window into reality.

I understand that because I have some experience in the magazine world.

If you want to make points about FCP-X, you'd be well served to base them on actual facts rather then leaping to conclusions as you did in this case. Simple as that.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Chris HarlanRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 11, 2012 at 7:24:22 pm

[Bill Davis] "What's "wrong" with me is that I don't accept BS arguments."

How can you say that, since you make them with such astounding regularity.

[Bill Davis] "You're the guy who popped up with the foolish opinion that because the photo illustration over the article showed FCP7 rather than X that it meant that the article's author was promoting X but using 7.
"


I did nothing of the kind. Reread my words. Here they are. "I do enjoy the fact that the extremely large illustrative photo for that X article is a guy sitting in front of FCP 7."

[Bill Davis] "All I did was point out the fact that the art over the article was a general illustration - not some window into reality."

Window into reality? What? Huh? You have a fever or something? I was simply mentioning an ironic mismatch of photo and article.

[Bill Davis] "If you want to make points about FCP-X, you'd be well served to base them on actual facts rather then leaping to conclusions as you did in this case. Simple as that.
"


Make points? Leaping to conclusions? Why don't you reprocess who exactly is leaping to conclusions here, Bill. Or for that matter, trying to make points. It might astound you.

I gotta tell you, man you blow my mind sometimes.


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craig slatteryRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 6, 2012 at 10:50:53 pm

[Walter Soyka] "What would you say are the most important changes with 10.0.6 that make it a turning point for your team?"

I think its a turning point because there is no real reason anymore not to use the software. It feels faster, more solid and it has a huge amount of depth. Working with Multicam clips is second to none. I mean they are seriously brilliant. The 3rd partys for finishing seem to work seamlessly. Apple appear to be serious about the future. What more do you need?
The thing is, FCP 7 is dead. Yes, I still use FCP7 and will do for a little while yet. But is gone and its not coming back, and while I recognise and admit, every time I go back to 7, I feel comfortable and perhaps a little safe, in reality Ive moved on.
Funnily, an unexpected bonus, is that Ive found that the directors and Series Producers seem to be able to read the timeline almost immediately in a way they never really connected with Legacy FCP. The Series Producer on our show loves it and has said "lets get others up to speed".


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+1

Michael AranyshevRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 7, 2012 at 5:31:02 pm

[craig slattery] "I think its a turning point because there is no real reason anymore not to use the software."

There is still no replace on playhead, no ganging, no real tracks and the timeline is still magnetic. That's plenty of real reasons for me not to use it.


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Christian SchumacherRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 7, 2012 at 6:00:48 pm

[Michael Aranyshev] "There is still no replace on playhead, no ganging, no real tracks and the timeline is still magnetic"

And there are annoyances like having to create storylines to place a transition, weird undo and playhead behavior, inconsistent keyboard commands when on a event and on a timeline, ghost frames when having secondary layers stacked and connected to a primary, limited speed controls, still no audio mixer, etc...

Better now that we don't get spinning balls and crashes, gotta hope for the best, right?


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craig slatteryRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 7, 2012 at 8:30:23 pm

[Michael Aranyshev] "There is still no replace on playhead, no ganging, no real tracks and the timeline is still magnetic."

Yes, but thats not a reason to not use the software. The television I cut in FCPX, looks no different to the television I cut in FCP7. I can make J cuts, I can add music, I can cut fast, slow, edgy, conservative. I can tell a story, I can inform, entertain, emote, and I can do it without tracks, without ganging, without replace on playhead, all within a timeline that happens to be magnetic. Ok you might not like working that way, but it can't be argued that these are reasons the software can not be used to create professional broadcast TV.


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Michael AranyshevRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 7, 2012 at 9:42:42 pm

From this point of view the turning point was when they enabled broadcast monitoring.


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Brett ShermanRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 8, 2012 at 4:33:36 pm

As someone who hasn't yet switched to FCP X, but most likely going to early next year, I'm cheered to hear this. I couldn't care less about whether it has this or that feature. Quite frankly if I can edit faster on it then FCP 7, that is what matters. It's so easy to become attached to a feature that if you worked slightly differently you wouldn't need anyways.

I've developed dozens of workarounds with FCP 7 to make up for it's inadequacies and am confident that I will be able to do the same with FCP X if the feature that I need isn't there. It will be a painful learning curve, but so what. Months down the road I expect to be more efficient than ever.



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Erik LindahlRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 8, 2012 at 7:06:29 pm

The main thing I lack in FCPX at the moment is solid timecode support. It's hard to se things like:

- where am I in clip X
- how long is clip Y or Z on the timeline

This is a fundamental issue when one has to deal with time / timecode. The lack of "mini timelines" makes this a greater issue IMO.

That said, sometimes it's not so important knowing this when editing so this issue might not be a problem for all. I'd however be interested to hear how other people cope with the problem of FCPX and time / timecode.


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Jeremy GarchowRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 8, 2012 at 7:18:49 pm

[Erik Lindahl] "I'd however be interested to hear how other people cope with the problem of FCPX and time / timecode."

It's simply limited at the moment and needs a bit of help.

That said, there are some options.

In the Browser, there's a "clip info" pop up that can be enabled that shows tc while scrubbing (control-y).

In the timeline, you can turn on "Clip skimming" and skim each clip (command-option-s). The clip's tc shows up in the main tc window in the middle of the screen.

Control-d shows duration of selected clips in the main tc window.

Jeremy


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Erik LindahlRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 8, 2012 at 10:28:23 pm

True, but a lot of these simple things are way to hidden.

The buggy film-strips are quite a source of irritation also. I fid the idea of them good, but it's no good when they don't show the correct frame of the clip. There should also be an option of only showing the first frame of each clip in the timeline.

But, with 10.0.6 like the thread starter I'm getting interested in FCPX I have to say.


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Jeremy GarchowRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 8, 2012 at 10:31:33 pm

[Erik Lindahl] "True, but a lot of these simple things are way to hidden."

I thought FCPX was easy? ;)

[Erik Lindahl] "The buggy film-strips are quite a source of irritation also. I fid the idea of them good, but it's no good when they don't show the correct frame of the clip. There should also be an option of only showing the first frame of each clip in the timeline.

But, with 10.0.6 like the thread starter I'm getting interested in FCPX I have to say."


There's a lot of "fit and finish" left to be done, there's no question about that. It is a relatively young application.

With a bit more time it'll get there.


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Erik LindahlRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 8, 2012 at 10:36:52 pm

Haha, well I'd called FCPX "simple" in regards to they tried to go for a completely fresh start and fresh view at editing. In true Apple-faschion they try their best to slim things down to the bare minimum yet keeping it "just powerful enough". Here I get that if you aren't an experience editor or possibly an editor dealing with strict time in projects for example, well, that kind of info isn't priority. And the legacy way of dealing with things was maybe (I can't say just yet) "too much information". It's just a bit to little info at the moment for a lot of things.

If Apple keep the development-cycle up we should have a very impressive app by next year looking how far it's come in the year and a half it's been on the market.


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Aindreas GallagherRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 9, 2012 at 11:29:31 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "There's a lot of "fit and finish" left to be done, there's no question about that."
"


the piop thing was weird though - I argued the hell for that in vague ignorance - but I sort of didn't expect the kind of return it got. Again, I'm not spending enough time with it really, but apple's engineering reply to the question of persistent cut points seemed to be ranges everywhere.

it just felt a weird response. They bult FCPX in a hermetic bubble, and their response to issues regarding persistent cut points came out of the same?

I've messed with the ranges, and setting multiple sets, and it feels like thinning intellectual soup.
its just multiple ghosted ranges. Its like they just decided to degrade their own methodology.

god knows what happens to secondary story lines now, in a frankenstein sense.

bottom line - Apple were on marshy, intellectually dodgy, imovie land to begin with. fit and finish is the least of their worries.


http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy GarchowRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 10, 2012 at 12:41:25 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "but I sort of didn't expect the kind of return it got"

I didn't expect the multiple ranges, but this functionality is exactly what I was afraid of.

What exact did you expect if the current implementation isn't what you thought it would be?


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Aindreas GallagherRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 10, 2012 at 12:01:21 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "What exact did you expect "

thats the thing - apple threw out so much susbtructure - assignable tracks - open timeline etc - they've already radically boiled down all the methodology,

if aspects of it turn out not to hold up in the real world, I'm not sure they have room to manouvere.

the thing about an open, tracked, non magnetic timeline, is that you can work it any number of ways - it invites multiple approaches.

Apple's reduced simplified methodology is extremely restrictive - for them and us. if it turns out not to hold up, I don't think they can unscramble the eggs. ranges, ranges everywhere in the event browser kind of shows that i think.

The example I find more telling is the way they bodged range selections for export on the timeline - they boiled so much of the timeline infrastructure away that, in order to make a range selection - you have to select an object range within the primary or secondary, or connected. they cannot see a way to impose in out range markers, for the timeline itself - which is the proper thing - because they blew so much of the timeline away. The range selections are counter intuitive - it looks like you are making a range selection within the primary - there is no way to indicate the selection feeds up into the secondary, connected clips, because apple have no way left to impose that kind of global selection. even though that is what is actually happening.

Literally all apple have left are object selection ranges.

I think it begs very direct questions about this whole "it will mature into a world beater"
frankly, I think apple are already at or near the conceptual seams of the over simplified corset they put their editing software in. they have to know that timeline range export is an intellectual bodge, that can't have felt great, but they didn't see another option. they had eighteen months to think about it.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy GarchowRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 10, 2012 at 4:30:45 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "frankly, I think apple are already at or near the conceptual seams of the over simplified corset they put their editing software in."

You are ignoring the fact that if you hit i then o and export, exactly what you marked is exported.

A rose is still a rose.

I'm asking, specifically, what you thought PIOPs might be if they aren't what you expected.

I also think, as was mentioned many times in the past, you need to get your PIOP definition straight.

I don't think you want persistent in and out points, you want global in and out markers. GIOMs ;)


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Aindreas GallagherRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 10, 2012 at 9:19:57 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I don't think you want persistent in and out points, you want global in and out markers. GIOMs ;)"

nay, sir - I'm saying apple can't produce either because: i, o, is simply a keyboard shortcut to define a range now, not valid individual in out cut points. the range is all there is.

It can't be a cut point on the clip - as Lawrence has clearly laid out, the cut point is gone - it has to be a range, and i o can't act to perform global selection on the timeline, because, again my friend, it can now be nothing other than a specific range selection.

the range is all apple have left themselves - that's the corset.

as the scottish would say - do you ken what I'm saying son?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy GarchowRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 10, 2012 at 9:57:16 pm

Semantics brudda. You can export in to out.

It used to be broken, it's now fixed.

Apple could add a global in/out to the timeline, the framework is already there.

What would be the point if you can do what you need now?


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Aindreas GallagherRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 10, 2012 at 11:25:43 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Semantics brudda. You can export in to out."

and.

no.

Lets take a use case.

I'm on a basic lower third connected to b-roll say right? noodling away, I just blade it to shorten it, (and watch the cut lower third tail overhanging the connected clip ridiculously re-attach itself to the primary, but anyway,)

I now think to export a range.

so here for you is the problem - I, focused on the lower third in my mind, cannot simply extend the export range in my head beyond the lower third with my range selection - range selection stops when the video objects stop.


I need to realise that there is no timeline outside the objects. I must return to the available footage area in the primary to make the extended selection.

Apple have completely evacuated the timeline outside the objects in the timeline. there is no air out there.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Apple could add a global in/out to the timeline, the framework is already there. "

that statement feels close to seeman saying that the future extended database is the source of cold fusion.

In short - Apple have real, critical, semantic editing problems and limitations. problems they created.

And problems they are not, given the scale of the lead in time involved here (3+ years) likely to fix.

This is not robust, new, open skies software from apple - this is a reductive use case one time craps bet, that is currently hamstrung by its own limitations and is also, lest we forget - a market failure. apple have three guys on a website. not so much.

Apple, I honestly think. have dangerously little room to grow the core concepts, because they are not core concepts of anything - they are boiled down reductive phraseology. If you miss the mystical every one is happy with the gruel mark - you pretty much lose professional adoption, and you also lose realistic ambition.

you don't get to expand a secondary storyline - its done.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Steve ConnorRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 11, 2012 at 10:17:40 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "so here for you is the problem - I, focused on the lower third in my mind, cannot simply extend the export range in my head beyond the lower third with my range selection - range selection stops when the video objects stop.
"


What are you on about? of course range selection stops when there are no video objects, if there's no video objects then there's nothing to export. You set your range selection on the primary!

[Aindreas Gallagher] " and is also, lest we forget - a market failure. apple have three guys on a website. not so much."

If we're using your terms for market failure then add in Vegas, Edius and even Premiere Pro to that.

Much as I enjoy using FCPX, there is a part of of me that hopes that it does fail, just for you Aindreas, you've put so much hard work into convincing people that it will.

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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craig slatteryRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 11, 2012 at 7:49:21 pm

[Steve Connor] "Much as I enjoy using FCPX, there is a part of of me that hopes that it does fail, just for you Aindreas, you've put so much hard work into convincing people that it will."

I love starting these threads, people get really worked up, credit to Aindreas. Here's the thing. Ive been cutting broadcast TV in FCPX for the last three weeks and thus far, while watching Twitter as the program is broadcast to millions of good folk across Britain. I've seen no Tweets, suggesting that the program has fallen into a pit because the editor has been cutting in a magnetic timeline, or that the stories are incoherent because the editor wasn't using tracks, or weirdly that the entertainment value suffered because the editor had to deal with confusing export ranges. To Joe public, it looks like normal TV. I think that's really what matters don't you?


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Jeremy GarchowRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 11, 2012 at 3:08:30 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "so here for you is the problem - I, focused on the lower third in my mind, cannot simply extend the export range in my head beyond the lower third with my range selection - range selection stops when the video objects stop."

No it doesn't?

You can mark an out anywhere, and export.

Have you even tried the new exporting options in 10.0.6?

[Aindreas Gallagher] "that statement feels close to seeman saying that the future extended database is the source of cold fusion."

Look here and tell me the framework isn't there:



in_out.png

It's just like when people said they would never add a Viewer, when the framework was already there in the angle viewer.


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Aindreas GallagherRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 11, 2012 at 6:41:25 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "You can mark an out anywhere, and export.

Have you even tried the new exporting options in 10.0.6?"


yes I have and you are incorrect mate. hitting i only works as long as there is something in the primary, if you are working in the secondary or connected say at the end of the sequence, with nothing in the primary below - hitting i does nothing. Its actually precisely the opposite of what you are saying - you absolutely cannot set an in out anywhere, and you can only drag ranges on objects. hence my point - selection is object tied. corset.

Capiche?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy GarchowRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 11, 2012 at 7:23:55 pm

So you're saying the framework is there or are you just going to ignore that part?

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Capiche?"

Nada. Tell me what you can't do in FCPX when it comes to export. Let's work that way.

Anyone who knows how it works will know you have to put something in the primary, gap or otherwise.

If you can't export what you want from FCPX, you would have a point, but since you can export what you want, I am having trouble understanding what corset is being tied.


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Aindreas GallagherRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 11, 2012 at 7:51:46 pm

as you recall this arose out of statement on the limitation of ranges, and the impossibility of cut points - there are only ranges - I'm not talking about exports bar what they highlight in terms of the semantic limitations of ranges as a core concept. they are object tied, and as with a timeline that doesn't exist outside of the objects, this places limitations on where apple can take things - both the ranges and the timeline are inherently reductive.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Steve ConnorRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 11, 2012 at 7:26:03 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "yes I have and you are incorrect mate. hitting i only works as long as there is something in the primary, if you are working in the secondary or connected say at the end of the sequence, with nothing in the primary below - hitting i does nothing. Its actually precisely the opposite of what you are saying - you absolutely cannot set an in out anywhere, and you can only drag ranges on objects. hence my point - selection is object tied. corset."

You are really showing your ignorance of how FCPX works here Aindreas, firstly there is always something in the primary even if its a gap clip and marking i and o works perfectly well with a gap clip in place!

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Steve ConnorRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 11, 2012 at 7:36:20 pm

[Steve Connor] "You are really showing your ignorance of how FCPX works here Aindreas, firstly there is always something in the primary even if its a gap clip and marking i and o works perfectly well with a gap clip in place!
"


OK, now I understand, you mean if you have extended a secondary clip beyond anything in the primary underneath it then there is a blank space below it, then the i and o selection doesn't actually work!

However this is a pretty specific case, which isn't exactly going to be a serious issue, plus the fact you can extend the clip on the primary and then it works!

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Aindreas GallagherRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 11, 2012 at 7:41:48 pm

sratch that - read your follow up.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy GarchowRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 11, 2012 at 8:36:43 pm

Option-w, right bracket, down arrow, shift-x, i, o, export

Can we move on now?


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Aindreas GallagherRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 11, 2012 at 8:50:39 pm

hey, I posted this to you up there but just to boil this down:

- this thread arose out of statement on the limitation of ranges, and the impossibility of cut points - there are only ranges - I'm not talking about exports bar what they highlight in terms of the semantic limitations of ranges as a core concept. they are object tied, and as with a timeline that doesn't exist outside of the objects, this places limitations on where apple can take things - both the ranges and the timeline are inherently reductive.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy GarchowRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 11, 2012 at 9:13:54 pm

Until you explain what you mean, the repetition isn't making the message any more clear.

You said you couldn't export, and took a really long time trying to say it.

I said you could, even if you add a gap.

You say there's nowhere to go due to a lack of options.

I say we are already well on the way, provided multiple proofs.

Would you care to elaborate or should we keep circling?


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Aindreas GallagherRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 11, 2012 at 9:21:21 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "You said you couldn't export, and took a really long time trying to say it.
"


incorrect - I showed a context where range selection for export is counter intuitive because you can only select objects - you said you could set in out points anywhere - i pointed out that that was incorrect. you said some stuff about people who really know the application know you need objects or a gap clip - then I reiterated that I was highlighting export ranges as a means of delineating conceptual shortcomings in ranges.

We're not circling anything - I'm pointing out some fundamental shortcomings in the range selection paradigm, that it reductive, I used the phrase corset, and you're focusing on proving there's nothing wrong with the export function or something?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy GarchowRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 11, 2012 at 9:32:04 pm

No.

By anywhere, I meant in time, not space, even though you might have to add a gap clip.

Does that really shrink your waist?


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Aindreas GallagherRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 11, 2012 at 9:37:51 pm

Ok - we can stop here, I feel like I've won.

;)

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy GarchowRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 11, 2012 at 9:59:43 pm

Me too.

We are all winners here.


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Morten CarlsenRe: 10.0.6 a significant turning point.
by on Nov 27, 2012 at 1:59:43 am

We love FCPx and that since the start... However, I do agree that we are reaching a turning point, which I dont like..

The overall stability of 10.0.6 is the worst since its initial release. We had to drop back to PPRO on certain projects because FCPx is so erratic.
Using 2 monitors is more or less a complete no go if you want to maintain your skimmer...

Handles are not acting correctly when setting them back to defaults... The last frame goes black although set to defaults.
Effects' keyframes are set one keyframe further left than playhead.
Compound clips keep exhibiting black frames when used inside a project.
Relinking Project files has an enormous bug which will cause all sorts of havoc when sharing projects...

Since 10.0.6 -- I have personally reported beyond 100 new bugs... All which I can re=create 100% and that on 3 different systems running 3 different OS X...

10.0.6 sports great features but its overall stability isnt even worth a beta state... I feel like a beta tester. And I dont like that one bit :-)

That said,, FPCx is the also the most advance NLE the world has ever seen... We just need to get those nasty bugs ironed out ! So keep feedbacking Apple... The DO listen and respond !


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