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Who is Going To Switch?

COW Forums : Apple FCPX or Not: The Debate

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Liam HallWho is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 24, 2012 at 5:19:21 pm

With the release of 10.0.6, who is going to switch to FCPX?

Well, I am, at least for the next two or three days. I have a job that, in theory, is perfect for FCPX and since Apple have addressed nearly all of the issues I had with 10.0.0 it would be rude to not give it another crack. We'll see what happens after that...

Liam Hall
Director/DoP/Editor
http://www.liamhall.net


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Fabrizio D'AgnanoRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 24, 2012 at 5:42:34 pm

The same goes for me. I am delivering, in the next two days, four new documentaries I edited with the good old FCP7. After that, I have some time before I deliver the next two, so I'll try to start and hopefully finish them with FCP X. I already prepared a Mountain Lion drive and FCPX 10.0.6, bought and went through the Ripple training tutorials, and I am mentally ready to try. The latest release made me believe Apple is not really dumping the pro niche, so I'll keep trusting them for giving me the reliable tools I need to get my work done. And if a new MacPro doesn't come soon, I might be tempted with a new iMac 27"....

Fabrizio D'Agnano
Rome, Italy


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Lance BachelderRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 24, 2012 at 5:49:54 pm

Yes the new iMac looks beyond tempting - looks like a real winner. Of course I'm sure once you build out a 27" with everything for "pro" use it will quickly jump to $3500 range or more.

As far as 10.06 - I think it's finally ready for some real work. I have a movie trailer to cut and we were gonna go with Vegas 12 to run the new version through its paces, but after playing with 10.06 I think we'll go Mac on this one and see how we like FCPX.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Neil GoodmanRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 24, 2012 at 6:09:57 pm

Some of the new features are def a step in the right direction. Mostly the ability to slip and slide with adjusted clips and copy paste attributes. The event viewer implamation leaves much to be desired..i was hoping for its own transport control, gang, etc. but i guess it works and its nice to have.,

The only thing holding me back from starting a real project with it, is the timeline. Coming from an Avid background, theres just way to much mouseing, clicking, holding and dragging, for me to feel like im actually going faster than with another NLE. The fact that secondary storyline and connected clips need to be edited differently than the primary is a turn off, and the magnetism still bothers me. I feel like the program doesnt think your smart enough to make your own editorial decisions and im constantly fumbling around to avoid it. Would be great if you could lock it in “position” mode so it just stays that way. Maybe you can. I did the ripple training and Lynda’s a couple months back so i feel like i get it, but its just not totally there yet.

That said, i dont think I’ll ever leave Avid unless forced to. Its just one of those things, sure Avid is a mess in some regards, but no other NLE makes me feel like an actual editor, like im driving the software, not the software driving me. Being able to get so into the edit, the software disappears and you realized its been hours since youve touched the mouse. Thats what i call editing.

Neil Goodman: Editor of New Media Production - NBC/Universal


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Liam HallRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 24, 2012 at 6:25:44 pm

[Neil Goodman] "The only thing holding me back from starting a real project with it, is the timeline."


That's one of the issues I still have, but I'll give a go over the next few days and see if I can tame the beast...

Liam Hall
Director/DoP/Editor
http://www.liamhall.net
Follow @wordsbyliam


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Craig SeemanRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 24, 2012 at 8:17:30 pm

A lot of what you say sounds like internalization rather than feature issues.

I came from 10 years of linear editing and my first NLE was a CMX6000.
Avid was a strange beast especially compared to the CMX6000.
I spent about 12 years on Avid right on up through being an Engineer and Trainer. I still felt I was fighting the paradigm although maybe not conscious of what I was fighting all the time. I became "used" to it. Modes were restrictive. Stepping into was restrictive. FCP legacy freed me from that. FCPX freed me from tracks serving multiple overlapping and sometimes conflicting purposes. I want one function for compositing, layering, cutaways, titles. I want another function for organizing. FCPX comes close and, given the improvements headed in the right direction. Heck FCP legacy felt odd after 12 years on Avid.

It's like learning a new language. New vocabulary, new syntax. Words that describe things that only exist in the new language. Of course you have to see the value in learning the new language. For me I finally have one thing for piling things on (connected clips and secondary story lines) and a separate thing for organizing (roles). They both need improvement but the language is the thing. I like the language and look forward to the improvements.



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Michael HadleyRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 25, 2012 at 2:45:28 am

Ive been cutting on X for the past 8 months. Each update is better than the last. It is now really hitting its stride. That said, it takes A WHILE to really learn to appreciate the magnetic timeline. It is initially infuriating. Once you get beyond that and start to understand it, it is actually a fantastic time saver, and lets you make changes much quicker and easier. But be warned it does take some time to get used to. In this case, different is better.


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alban eggerRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 25, 2012 at 6:01:27 am

[Neil Goodman] "The fact that secondary storyline and connected clips need to be edited differently than the primary is a turn off, and the magnetism still bothers me. I feel like the program doesnt think your smart enough to make your own editorial decisions and im constantly fumbling around to avoid it"

Fitst of all the SECONDARY storyline behaves exactly like the PRIMARY. It only cannot have connected clips of its own. Otherwise it is a storyline, not a compound clip.

Your other worries sound more like a simple getting used to; but in a good way ;-)



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Bret WilliamsRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 25, 2012 at 5:13:07 am

I have the current best you can buy iMac except I bought the RAM aftermarket of course for $70 instead of $700. The total price of the maxed out iMac from BHPhoto was $2249.

It runs X great. But not Adobe Premiere or AE very well since no CUDA, or official OpenCL support of the Radeon 6970m. You can hack it, but it actually runs worse when you do. But there's no hack to get accelerated ray trace. And if you do use ray trace in AE, it doesn't do multiprocessing!

So it's turned AE into a dog. But since the next iMacs have CUDA enabled cards, it's the best of both worlds. I'm sure they'll run X great, and AE will be a powerhouse. I can't afford not to get it really.

Guess I'll have to get the $70 external DVD burner and duck tape it to the back though.


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Clint WardlowRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 24, 2012 at 6:38:24 pm

Don't know if switch is the right word. I will finally download a copy and playing around with it. The best thing about this whole FCPX episode is that it forced me out of the single NLE paradigm. Now I use both FCP7 & PPRO, and will happily add FCPX to the mix. If Sony would pump out a MAC version of Vegas, I would be happy to include that also.


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Andy FieldRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 24, 2012 at 6:51:55 pm

The biggest turn off is no audio automation mixer.

I still can't see how rubberbanding and range select ducking audio clip by clip is easier/faster/better than mixing in real time with subtle audio ducks and swells -- we use this every single day to get a clean mix and this still doesn't exist in FCPX.

There are some very cool features in FCP X but I agree with Mr. Goodman above -- it feels like the editor must conform to the NLE's quirks rather than being able to keep your hand off the mouse and fly with all keyboard commands.

All that said...FCP 7 has gotten slower and clunkier with newer formats (XDCAM is a colossal headache on 7 with render times...we just turn it all into prores) I like PP6 but it's still only 90 percent of the way there. Avid just feels clunky.

Come on Apple give us a real time audio mixer and some semblance of tracks without the Texas two step of creating roles etc...and you'd bring a lot of refugees back.

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Lance BachelderRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 24, 2012 at 6:58:46 pm

I agree audio editing needs improvement. Maybe they'll update Logic to work hand in hand with FCPX? I wouldn't mind round tripping if it's solid and painless.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Rob EssersRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 24, 2012 at 6:54:25 pm

Too many NLE's made me paronioa, it's about choices. Premiere is still a disappointment for me. It is about Media Composer and FCP X I think both has a future for me. The combo MC and Baselight is a winner. FCP X with all the plug ins is a fresh new approach for fast short clips.

Greetings Rob


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Joseph OwensRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 24, 2012 at 9:40:29 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "Don't know if switch is the right word."

As a predominantly Grade/OnLine facility, for me its not really about mass assembly or relational databases, its about round trips, revisions, versions, exports, disks, masters, archives.... so can I now master an SR tape with a discrete Surround 1-6 track hierarchy, Stereo LtRt on 7,8, Dolby E on 9,10 and described video on 11, 12 with closed captioning?

That's really all I need. All the rest is the trombone music that Charlie Brown's teacher sounds like.

jPo

"I always pass on free advice -- its never of any use to me" Oscar Wilde.


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Jim GibertiRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 24, 2012 at 6:46:51 pm

I can't wait to switch, from 0.5 to 0.6, but I have to wait till I get two projects out.


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Nick MontgomeryRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 24, 2012 at 7:16:02 pm

Still cutting on FCP7, and have remained a bit ignorant to what's changed with X since its release, but now edging towards getting an alt drive with Mountain Lion and X. Not fully transitioning, but good to keep options open.

Nick Montgomery
DP/Editor/VFX Compositor
http://www.merc-media.com


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Andrew KimeryRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 24, 2012 at 8:06:06 pm

My answer now is the same as it's been the past year or so. Once companies I want to work for start using FCPX I'll learn FCPX. Until then it makes more sense for me sharpen my skills on Avid, AE or Resolve.




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Greg JonesRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 24, 2012 at 8:14:07 pm

The shipped sailed for me a while ago. I own a copy of FCPX, but I've been using PPRO for over a year now. It will take something special for me to switch from PPRO to anything else right now. I opened up FCPX 10.0.6 today and played with it for a few minutes, but I have to tell you, PPRO does everything that FCPX does and a whole lot more. That being said, if I had a client who was adamant about a project needing to be done in X, I would not hesitate to do it.

Greg Jones
D7,Inc.

Greg Jones
Orlando,Fl.
http://www.d7-inc.com


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Gary HuffRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 25, 2012 at 12:47:42 am

[Greg Jones] "That being said, if I had a client who was adamant about a project needing to be done in X, I would not hesitate to do it."

I completely agree with this sentiment.


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alban eggerRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 25, 2012 at 6:09:57 am

[Greg Jones] " That being said, if I had a client who was adamant about a project needing to be done in X, I would not hesitate to do it."

Ha, yeah, as if you could just turn it on and fly with it. I played with PP and have the same way the other way...it lacks features that I have in FCPX or let it put it this way: it does things different. But if a client wanted me to edit in PP, I doubt I would dare to take the job, because I am just too slow on it.

I expect more and more companies to move into the FCPX world (and if it is only a financial decision) and in a few months there will be freelancers that are used to it and then the market will be split.



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Neil GoodmanRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 24, 2012 at 9:21:27 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "My answer now is the same as it's been the past year or so. Once companies I want to work for start using FCPX I'll learn FCPX. Until then it makes more sense for me sharpen my skills on Avid, AE or Resolve.
"



this...ill be poking around until that day comes so i can dive right in, but until then i feel like i need to focus on what people are paying for and for now, at least where i am, that aint X. even PPRO hasnt really saturated here, mostly still FCP 7 adn MC.

Neil Goodman: Editor of New Media Production - NBC/Universal


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Frank GothmannRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 24, 2012 at 9:38:19 pm

We've switched fully to Edius with three edit bays with a bit of Premiere here and there.
There is nothing in X or in Apple's hardware line-up that intrigues me these days and makes me want to go back; I dislike Mountain Lion and its direction, add the attitude issue to the mix and I doubt I'll ever consider another Apple product. I couldn't care less what's coming or won't be coming from them.

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


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Don ScioliRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 24, 2012 at 9:53:31 pm

As I said in an earlier post, I switched to FCPX full time with version 10.0.5 last June and have not looked back to either 7, PP6 or Avid 6 sitting on my computer. This latest upgrade just adds icing on the cake as far as I'm concerned. I through everything at it, including a lot of crap from YouTube up-converted to 1080p @ 24 and it doesn't even spit.

The future is here...now.


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-2

Kent BeesonRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 24, 2012 at 10:27:01 pm

Seriously at the rate Apple is going, maybe sometime in 2014 FCP X might be up to Pro snuff, with all that it should've had in 2011...all these hard/software people spitting out continuous BETA product is SO boring, but they control what we get, not the end user...

again, touch screen, in conjunction with voice command if/as you want it is what would be more natural, faster, better - but you're talking another 20 years minimum - and even then they (Apple, whoever) will piece-meal it very slowly for continued revenue stream purposes. Just my 50-cents

Thanks

K
http://www.effective-video.com


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Bill DavisRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 24, 2012 at 11:54:14 pm

Same ol' same ol'

Two polarized camps. It's wonderful or it's crap.

The only thing I'll say after a continuous deep dive into it since version 1 would be that if it does continue to build traction in working editorial circles - and it starts ending up in the shops where you want to work - and you have little beyond a cursory "features overview" kind of understanding of it - I kinda think you're going to be in a world of hurt trying to wrestle whatever seats there are away from the folks who've put their 6 months to a year into the software and know where all it's bodies are burried.

It's always a bet. Just like Legacy was a bet back in it's early days.

Back then a LOT of businesses were jump started by those who felt that duriing a transition, a lighter more affordable approach (FCP on a Mac with DV) was a smarter "developing industry" bet than AVID with BVW series Betacam decks and $$$ AVID spec'd storage style shops.

Not saying that's gonna happen here.

But considering the pace of X development - I wouldn't bet against it either.

FWIW.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Andrew KimeryRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 25, 2012 at 1:00:11 am

[Bill Davis] "I kinda think you're going to be in a world of hurt trying to wrestle whatever seats there are away from the folks who've put their 6 months to a year into the software and know where all it's bodies are burried."
I doubt the majority of professionals that, on a daily basis, use programs like AE, Avid MC, FCP Classic, Photoshop, ProTools, Maya, C4D, Resolve, etc., got started with version 1. Why do you think FCPX will be different? Sure, if one's job is to train others, create plugins/3rd party apps, consult with businesses about what to buy, provide tech support, etc., then getting in on the ground floor can certainly have advantages but I don't see it translating the same way when it comes to end users.




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Gary HuffRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 25, 2012 at 1:06:14 am

[Andrew Kimery] "Why do you think FCPX will be different?"

Because Bill is of the "join or die" level of fanboyism.


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Bill DavisRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 25, 2012 at 3:22:14 am

[Gary Huff] "Because Bill is of the "join or die" level of fanboyism."

Not really.

I have to accumulate 1500 more "X Got the Job Done for me OnTime " points - as well as 4000 more "Bashing ALL other Software Alternatives Regardless of their Capabilities" points.

Reaching the hallowed "join or die" level also means I have to submit $59 for the commemorative pin.

I'm saving up - but it's going to take me some more time.


(I do admit that the idea that I can achieve a level of "anything-boy" ism at my age is extremely encouraging!)

; )

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Chris KennyRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 25, 2012 at 6:47:35 am

[Bill Davis] "But considering the pace of X development - I wouldn't bet against it either."

This is a really important point. I know a lot of people think everything Apple has shipped up through 10.0.6 should have been in 10.0.0. Maybe that's even true. For whatever reason, it wasn't. But what was in 10.0.0 doesn't provide any useful any guide to the pace of development, as we have no really clear idea of exactly when Apple started development on X.

What has been added since 10.0.0 does give us an idea of the pace of development, and if you count up the major features there, it's fast. Since a lot of this has been catch up, people haven't given Apple much credit for it, but now that FCP X is mostly caught up, if new features keep showing up at this rate, it's going to be quite a force.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Michael GissingRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 25, 2012 at 7:28:47 am

[Chris Kenny]"What has been added since 10.0.0 does give us an idea of the pace of development, and if you count up the major features there, it's fast. Since a lot of this has been catch up, people haven't given Apple much credit for it, but now that FCP X is mostly caught up, if new features keep showing up at this rate, it's going to be quite a force."

Companies rarely develop at a steady pace. I think Apple had an 'oh shit' moment a bit over a year ago when the release of FCPX was less than special. I will certainly give them kudos for a fast catch up but as they get out of beta and third party developers rush to fill other gaps, I suspect the pace will have to slow. Happy to be wrong of course but what if Apple pull software people off FCPX and onto Maps which needs help fast.

There is a downside to rapid development in stability and the ability for other third party developers to keep up with new versions, drivers etc. An example is that Matrox appear to be caught out with this update.


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 25, 2012 at 12:56:08 pm

[Michael Gissing] "There is a downside to rapid development in stability and the ability for other third party developers to keep up with new versions, drivers etc. An example is that Matrox appear to be caught out with this update."

Funny that AJA and BMD seem to wok though.

Philip Hodgetts already has updates waiting for approval in the AppStore taking advantage of FCPXML v1.2

Red Giant already has 10.0.6 tutorials.

Glue Tools Phantom Tool Kit allows 16bit RAW workflows in 10.0.6.

From a cursory glance, Apple is letting people in, and besides the AppStore reviews, was all available on launch day.

Is it really that bad out there? I'd say no.


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Steve ConnorRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 25, 2012 at 1:01:17 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Is it really that bad out there? I'd say no.
"


Any major update is going to break something in third party tools, it's insane to update without checking that all your plugins and drivers are compatible

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 25, 2012 at 1:04:35 pm

[Steve Connor] "Any major update is going to break something in third party tools, it's insane to update without checking that all your plugins and drivers are compatible"

There was a lot that worked for the better on launch day.

ImEx from MXF4mac worked too.

My point was that many things were working and NOT broken. ;)

Well, besides Matrox.


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Michael GissingRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 25, 2012 at 10:47:03 pm

Jeremy, I was making a general statement about pace of software development with the specific example of Matrox as it is topical. I have been part of a lot of beta software cycles over the past twenty years and they all have rushes of enthusiasm followed by periods to consolidate and bug fix.

I doubt FCPX to be so different. So to the question of will Apple keep up the pace of development it has shown over the past year what say you and why.


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 26, 2012 at 3:04:24 am

[Michael Gissing] "Jeremy, I was making a general statement about pace of software development with the specific example of Matrox as it is topical. I have been part of a lot of beta software cycles over the past twenty years and they all have rushes of enthusiasm followed by periods to consolidate and bug fix. "

Yes, I hear that sentiment. But AJA and BMD cards work with zero updates at all, that's why i thought the Matrox example was a weird example. Maybe Matrox didn't have as early of access, I don't know.

I too, think that FCPX will get a lot of attention, it will build up a feature set, and then it will level off to more bug fix/stabilization with smaller, less incremental updates.

Apple still has a lot of work to do on FCPX.

Final Cut Legend sold computers, let's not make any mistakes about it.

If Apple is going to be making MacPro-ish computers which they have alluded to, then FCPX is going to be a poster child for it.

The Retina MacBook Pros are the standing example.

iMac commercials don't get the FCPX/Aperture treatment (if marketing is any indication of what kind of customer a company feels their products will attract).

My guess is that the new MacPro replacements will be pricey beasts, as is any beast, when you compare to the likes of an i7 or similar. The costs of these new intel sizzle core processors are going up, not down, from the previous generations.

They will need real pros with real money buying these machines, just like any other computer company needs pro users to buy pro capability.

As the current MacMini is currently almost as fast as a much larger, much heavier, much more power hungry two year old MacPro (http://www.tuaw.com/2012/10/25/mac-mini-catches-2010-mac-pro-in-benchmark-tests/) in certain benchmarks, a pro machine from Apple will have to deliver in a big way and offer significant advantage to a MacMini (or really, an iMac).

In my view, they are building a platform with FCPX. They are building a new system for newer technology, and they felt that scrapping the old system was worth it. It's going to take a while, but they have shown their hand in their development. By the time "later in 2013" rolls around with the launch of the MacPro-ish thingy, they will have had significant time in the FCPX saddle to build up that feature set. This type of thing takes time, even when you have the huge bank coffers of Apple, Inc.

Also, every new brand new Apple computer with a dedicated GPU that has been released or announced recently, has had new NVidia technology.

Mountain Lion has native support for more NVidia cards.

So, even as a professional you decide your choice isn't the FCPX system, you can still buy a Mac to use with other professional video applications that heavily rely on a GPU workflow.

This company has somehow been demonized since June 21st all over the professional video space. Some of the backlash is certainly warranted. I see nothing but another big giant company slinging products, it's what the folks at Apple have always wanted to be. They finally cracked the code.

So, I agree in that I don't think the pace will keep up forever, but they still have a lot of work to do to keep building on their potential future successes. I, personally, don't feel Apple has forgotten the likes of the MacPro community quite yet, especially when you consider the myriad of other professionals outside of the video industry that could use a MacPro replacement.


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 28, 2012 at 3:22:43 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "So, I agree in that I don't think the pace will keep up forever, but they still have a lot of work to do to keep building on their potential future successes. I, personally, don't feel Apple has forgotten the likes of the MacPro community quite yet, especially when you consider the myriad of other professionals outside of the video industry that could use a MacPro replacement."

I don't know if anyone pays attention to these ramblings anymore, but I have just a few more thoughts on this as it pertains to the professional community.

FCPX is going to require a really fast space heater machine here pretty soon.

With 10.0.6 the much improved "Share" function is now a truly background process.

You can start exporting/transcoding almost anything out the application, whether it's a Project, a clip, an Event, a range, whatever.

This means I can be crazy productive, editing while exporting, editing while making tc burns, whatever.

Here's the crazy part. I can start exporting a Project, and the BG render starts going.

I can CONTINUE WORKING ON THAT SAME PROJECT, add things, delete things, rearrange it, and reexport. The original export doesn't stop or get screwed up, it stays the same as when I started it. Sorry for the caps, I just want to make sure this is understood.

The second export is the result of when I started that export.

I can adda third export after further rearranging. I stopped at three, but it seems you throw as many versions as you want at it.

I have been testing all this on a shitty old laptop from home. It absolutely cripples my machine. Testing on an older MacPro, it's better, but still crippling.

Really, to make the process sing, I'm going to need all the fancy hyperthreaded sizzle cores it can muster.

Apple has a plan here, it's not going to be targeted at consumers, as they simply won't care about this capability.

Two pennies,

Jeremy


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Herb SevushRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 28, 2012 at 4:55:34 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I don't know if anyone pays attention to these ramblings anymore, "

I hang on every word.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Really, to make the process sing, I'm going to need all the fancy hyperthreaded sizzle cores it can muster. Apple has a plan here, it's not going to be targeted at consumers, as they simply won't care about this capability."

I hope your right.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Craig SeemanRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 28, 2012 at 5:36:12 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Apple has a plan here, it's not going to be targeted at consumers, as they simply won't care about this capability."

Jeremy, isn't this all geared towards the wedding videographer who has to crank out the same day edit?
Pros don't have time crushing deadlines anymore because webesodes have replaced weekly episodic television. Phantom support is really just so the skateboarders can shoot their falls at 1000fps and upload to YouTube.

I'd guess that we may see a 16 core beast with a mean GPU amongst Apple's offerings next year but people will complain about the "Apple tax" even though it won't cost any more than a comparable HP Z820.



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Jeremy GarchowRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 29, 2012 at 3:53:03 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Jeremy, isn't this all geared towards the wedding videographer who has to crank out the same day edit?
Pros don't have time crushing deadlines anymore because webesodes have replaced weekly episodic television. Phantom support is really just so the skateboarders can shoot their falls at 1000fps and upload to YouTube."


Skateboarding has never looked better at 16bit RGB Raw.

Seriously though, the capability to be able to crank out different versions while still working on the same timeline is incredible, meaning, send a version to export, then keep working on that exact same timeline and then immediately send a new version and have the exports refelct the state of the timeline when you sent it to export. I know I am an absolute nut when I say I like FCPX, my pro status has been downgraded, I am just an Apple fanboi and they now only care about the consumer, but as a professional, I find these features to be truly helpful and useful. Sure there's some Reel ID weirdness that we have talked about in other threads, there's some weird interface mechanics and timecode displays that still need to be sorted out, but the amount of effort and rethink that has gone in to this program is becoming more and more apparent with every release.

Oh well, I guess it doesn't matter because they didn't make it for Pros.

[Craig Seeman] "I'd guess that we may see a 16 core beast with a mean GPU amongst Apple's offerings next year but people will complain about the "Apple tax" even though it won't cost any more than a comparable HP Z820."

I have no idea what is going to happen, and yes, no matter what people will complain.

It's like the people who grabbed the new iPhone, proceeded to scrap their keys in long deliberate strokes across the back and said, "What the f*ck? My iPhone isn't indestructible?" I would ask them to go do that to their car and report their findings. An iPhone is a smaller hunk of tin, but it's still a hunk of tin.

I do know that if you use FCPX new Share menu to it's full potential and capability, you will need a very fast computer in a hunk of carbon fiber.

Jeremy


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Herb SevushRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 29, 2012 at 4:03:10 pm

[Craig Seeman] " but people will complain about the "Apple tax" even though it won't cost any more than a comparable HP Z820."


Does the not cost any more include all the thunderbolt cables, pcie to thunderbolt converters and external pcie and drive enclosures that your vision of a new MacPro will require?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 29, 2012 at 4:12:27 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Does the not cost any more include all the thunderbolt cables, pcie to thunderbolt converters and external pcie and drive enclosures that your vision of a new MacPro will require?"

I have an older 8 drive RAID that I am not using since we moved to the SAN.

Thanks to Thunderbolt, I can now get a relatively inexpensive PCIe to Thunderbolt box and put that raid on any thunderbolt computer I like.

It's much cheaper than buying a whole new RAID.


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Herb SevushRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 29, 2012 at 4:28:59 pm

For an editor like myself, 1 computer, 1 raid enclosure, 1 pcie card - how is adding an external pcie box and thunderbolt connectors as cheap as having internal pcie slots. How is having external drive boxes and slots not more expensive than having internal bays. I understand the advantages for multi-system users such as yourself and Craig, but to deny that their is a "tax" for setting up a MacPro this way is ingenuous. You could reasonably argue that the flexibility is worth the cost, but you can't argue that there is no extra cost.

The most cost effective single user design I've seen is the ProMaxx One where everything is internal - system drives, loaded Pcie slots, full raid, LTO5 drive if you want it - nothing external but the monitor and keyboard. While it might be less practical for a multi-user system, for a single user it's incredibly cost and space efficient with no external cabling or power requirements. Which design is "better" is in the eye of the beholder.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 29, 2012 at 5:27:16 pm

[Herb Sevush] "For an editor like myself, 1 computer, 1 raid enclosure, 1 pcie card - how is adding an external pcie box and thunderbolt connectors as cheap as having internal pcie slots."

For you right now, it might not be.

You'd have to decide if you wanted to keep your Raid and but a PCIe box, or buy a new Thunderbolt raid that will work anywhere with a thunderbolt connector. The includes portable computers, windows computers, et al.

You can't do that with a PCIe card and any computer, at least it's much harder.

If you're buying a brand new setup, it's cheaper.

[Herb Sevush] "The most cost effective single user design I've seen is the ProMaxx One where everything is internal - system drives, loaded Pcie slots, full raid, LTO5 drive if you want it - nothing external but the monitor and keyboard. While it might be less practical for a multi-user system, for a single user it's incredibly cost and space efficient with no external cabling or power requirements. Which design is "better" is in the eye of the beholder."

If that's what you need and better fits your situation, it seems like a no brainer.

We need the flexibility and Thunderbolt can and will provide it.

Jeremy


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Craig SeemanRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 29, 2012 at 5:42:47 pm

This does get back to where I think Apple is as a company and business model.
They are not a "consumer" company so much as a "commodity" company (mass produced products).
With the meteoric rise in mobile computing, they're likely to design desktops that allow you to interchange things as facilitated by Thunderbolt.

I think Apple is betting (correctly) that even if you're going to need a desktop power beast, there's a laptop in your work life as well. For those, Thunderbolt is a savings in many respects.

As to PCIe chassis it may well depend on what you need hooked up to your computer. Thunderbolt Video I/O for example will range from the Blackmagic Recorder or Monitor ($135 ish supposedly in December) to things like the AJA ioXT and similar boxes. The chassis certainly helps if you need Blackmagic Quad, multiple Intensity Pros or other multiple PCIe combinations that might not be better served with Thunderbolt daisy chaining. Basically even the need for a PCIe chassis is diminished (although obviously not eliminated).

Sure you can find exceptional need for a PCIe chassis but for most of the market (which includes many professionals) the need is declining. Such is the nature of a company that want mass market (the masses to which even many professionals now belong to).



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Herb SevushRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 29, 2012 at 6:05:08 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Sure you can find exceptional need for a PCIe chassis but for most of the market (which includes many professionals) the need is declining. Such is the nature of a company that want mass market (the masses to which even many professionals now belong to).
"


I think we can leave it at the thought that the next Mac Pro will probably leave a lot of older users in the dust, much like many Apple offerings. The cost benefit rewards will vary from case to case, and there will be much gnashing of teeth amongst the rejoicing. So what else is new.

If they had actually come out with something like this last spring, and if I had determined that my current pcie setup could be made to work with Tbolt connectors, I would have jumped on it. By next year it is not at all certain that I will.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Craig SeemanRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 29, 2012 at 4:33:04 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Does the not cost any more include all the thunderbolt cables, pcie to thunderbolt converters and external pcie and drive enclosures that your vision of a new MacPro will require?"

Hmm, that would actually drive down the cost as the number of computers one uses goes up.
Every Thunderbolt device can easily moved to any Mac from the lowly Air and Mini right on up to (I suspect) the new MacPro replacements. Imagine being able to use/move PCIe cards in a chassis or a RAID system to any Mac computer to continue work.



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Herb SevushRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 29, 2012 at 4:50:01 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Hmm, that would actually drive down the cost as the number of computers one uses goes up."

As I posted to Jeremy, how does that help if you have only one computer? Even when I owned a multi-seat environment each room had it's own raid - where's the advantage for me in portability. Unless you expand and contract with lots of laptops the reason and opportunity for exchanging raids between desktop systems seems rather limited. Go ahead Craig, you can say it -- it will cost more. The additional costs may be worth it to some, but the costs are there.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Gary HuffRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 25, 2012 at 12:51:09 am

[Kent Beeson] "again, touch screen, in conjunction with voice command if/as you want it is what would be more natural, faster, better"

If you'd actually think about this in a realistic sense, I think you'd realize how terrible this would be in practice.


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Shane RossRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 25, 2012 at 2:45:06 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "My answer now is the same as it's been the past year or so. Once companies I want to work for start using FCPX I'll learn FCPX. Until then it makes more sense for me sharpen my skills on Avid, AE or Resolve."

Yup, I'm in the same boat. I'm sticking with what is used in my industry out here in Hollywood.

Until FCX provides answers to post production needs that other, existing software don't provide, it won't get much of a foothold. FCP 4.5 answered a lot of needs, thus why I did grab a lot of attention and use in this town.

But then again, we are the 2% that it isn't aiming at...so...

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Don WalkerRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 25, 2012 at 2:35:19 am

Jim, I proved to the world that I wasn't a good professional editor by, upgrading right in the middle of a project. The program promptly beach balled on the first project load up, I forced quit, and it's been nothing but smooth sailing since. There is a little funky flash frames when adjusting plugin effects, but nothing show stopping. It is faster on my 2008 8 core. I love it.

don walker
texarkana, texas

John 3:16


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Jim GibertiRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 25, 2012 at 3:03:18 am

[Don Walker] "Jim, I proved to the world that I wasn't a good professional editor by, upgrading right in the middle of a project. "

Well....as much as I'm looking forward to a bunch of the new features, I'm just an approval or two away from wrapping both pieces. My real issue is realizing that I have to have 10.7.5 (I believe) and we're happily cruising along on 10.6.8

The real issue is in the two suites I work at the farm and studios, I've got full audio post and all the VIs and packages and drivers to consider there too. I usually dread making an OS change when I've got several systems all running smoothly, but I'm trusting/hoping I'll find everything simpatico.


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Geert van den BergRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 25, 2012 at 6:56:25 am

I have 10.0.6 installed on Snow Leopard.

After reading here that Lion was required I expected I couldn't install it, I can't install the latest version of Aperture and Numbers and Pages, but to my surprise Final Cut did install, just check your appstore app to see if it's listed.


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Paul NeumannRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 25, 2012 at 3:04:53 am

I have a live music/party shoot planned for this Monday. We'll use 2 cameras (D7 and XF100) and grab sound from the board for a song or two to edit against. I will try my best to start and finish this job in this new version of FCPX. Over the past year I have made it through 2 edits on this software. I really hope this time is different. I have so much Photoshop/After Effects/Illustrator stuff in most of my jobs that it's silly to not use CS6. But this thing coming up should be pretty straight forward editorial/image fx. I will try.


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Herb SevushRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 25, 2012 at 1:45:48 pm

[Liam Hall] "With the release of 10.0.6, who is going to switch to FCPX?"

Call me when they have a time-code window and the ability to quickly re-sync unconnected audio and video.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Charlie AustinRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 25, 2012 at 11:21:52 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Call me when they have a time-code window and the ability to quickly re-sync unconnected audio and video.
"


Well, the main TC display has always been way easier to read than FC7's and it follows the viewer, and you can see TC in source clips when you skim them in the timeline or browser. Maybe someone will come up with a plugin to show source TC from clips in a sequence on the viewer, but right now it's trivial to see TC from anything you want. And, FWIW, now that you can edit audio and assign roles to individual channels while it stays attached to the video, personally I'll just leave sync audio attached now. No real reason to detach it anymore unless the source is out of sync. But that's just me... ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~


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Herb SevushRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 26, 2012 at 1:30:14 am

[Charlie Austin] " the main TC display has always been way easier to read than FC7's and it follows the viewer"

Not particularly interested in the timeline timecode, I assume it's visible, even X wouldn't have screwed that up.

[Charlie Austin] " you can see TC in source clips when you skim them in the timeline or browser."

I need to see the source timecode of all layers in the timeline or project or whatever it's currently called, simultaneously. I need to know which elements are in sync, if not then how far out of sync are they, and a simple way to get them back in sync whenever I wish. And since I'm almost always in multicam mode, by sync I mean in timecode sync irrespective of whether the audio and video come from the same source. For me not having this capability is like driving blindfolded.

[Charlie Austin] "now that you can edit audio and assign roles to individual channels while it stays attached to the video, personally I'll just leave sync audio attached now. No real reason to detach it anymore unless the source is out of sync. But that's just me"

Tethering audio to the video it happened to be recorded with is like ... well it's like something I'd prefer not to do. But that's just me.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Charlie AustinRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 26, 2012 at 1:46:56 am

[Herb Sevush] "And since I'm almost always in multicam mode, by sync I mean in timecode sync irrespective of whether the audio and video come from the same source. For me not having this capability is like driving blindfolded.

Makes sense... I'm never in multicam mode, but I can see what you're saying...


[Herb Sevush] Tethering audio to the video it happened to be recorded with is like ... well it's like something I'd prefer not to do. But that's just me."


Honestly, for what I do it's great. I work from (more or less) finished multitrack features, so I generally need dialog and maybe some FX. Now that audio is editable without breaking it apart from the pix there's no real reason to split it off, other than that's what i'm used to doing... If I want to move a chunk of on camera dialog, now I don't need to select an audio and video clip, and then hope, (or perform pre-move track Tetris) I don't overwrite something where I'm moving it to.

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 26, 2012 at 3:52:56 am

[Herb Sevush] "And since I'm almost always in multicam mode, by sync I mean in timecode sync irrespective of whether the audio and video come from the same source. For me not having this capability is like driving blindfolded."

After setting up your angles in mutlicam, there's a "timecode" option that displays timecode on every angle in your multiclip:




tc_sync.png


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Herb SevushRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 26, 2012 at 11:23:30 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "After setting up your angles in mutlicam, there's a "timecode" option that displays timecode on every angle in your multiclip:"

Yes, Legacy has that as well and I always turn it off. I don't need anymore info about the multiclip; unless I screwed up when creating it I know the angles are in sync.

I need info about what's on the timeline (storyline? project?), how the various tracks (or layers or whatever they're now called) relate to each other in terms of sync. I need something equivalent to Legacy's combination of timecode window and timeline sync indicators. I'm looking for improvement in that functionality (it's not like Legacy was perfect in that respect) not it's total lack.

PPro lacks this functionality as well as X, I won't consider either one till they have it.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 26, 2012 at 10:35:10 pm

[Herb Sevush] "PPro lacks this functionality as well as X, I won't consider either one till they have it."

I guess I am completely misunderstanding you.

You said you were always in multicam mode, FCPX allows you to see every piece of timecode in multicam.

Pr allows you to see every tc on video or audio tracks all at once.


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Herb SevushRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 26, 2012 at 10:45:42 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "FCPX allows you to see every piece of timecode in multicam."


This has nothing to do with being in multicam mode, this has to do with reading the elements on the timeline. Your saying that if I have some video from a multicam on a video track in the timeline, and below it, or above it or wherever they put it I have 3 different tracks of audio, and the timeline marker is at rest there is a window that gives the current source timecode of each of those elements at that point similar to the timecode window in Legacy?

and -

Where is the timecode window in PPro located?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Charlie AustinRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 26, 2012 at 10:54:34 pm

[Herb Sevush] "if I have some video from a multicam on a video track in the timeline, and below it, or above it or wherever they put it I have 3 different tracks of audio, and the timeline marker is at rest there is a window that gives the current source timecode of each of those elements at that point similar to the timecode window in Legacy?"

Yes, you can do it, but it's not all piled in an overlay like in 7. Assuming you have clip skimming turned on, simply park the playhead wherever, and skim to the playhead position. The main TC display shows the source TC of whatever clip you're skimming over. Not all on the screen at once, but really simple.

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 26, 2012 at 10:56:13 pm

[Herb Sevush] "This has nothing to do with being in multicam mode,"

That's why I was confused. You said you always were in "multicam mode". From previous post:

[Herb Sevush] "And since I'm almost always in multicam mode,"

OK, maybe you said almost always in mulitcam mode. ;)

[Herb Sevush] "Your saying that if I have some video from a multicam on a video track in the timeline, and below it, or above it or wherever they put it I have 3 different tracks of audio, and the timeline marker is at rest there is a window that gives the current source timecode of each of those elements at that point similar to the timecode window in Legacy?"

No unfortunately, unless all those clips were in the same multiclip.

[Herb Sevush] "Where is the timecode window in PPro located?"

Info panel:



adobe.png


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Herb SevushRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 27, 2012 at 2:24:48 am

Jeremy,

I'm almost always cutting multicam shows, but that doesn't mean I'm always cutting with multiclips to do it, there's a mix and I need to be able to use whatever mode or tool I want without penalty.

Thanks for your help, but it seems like I'm going to have to clear some time and go thru this myself to see if either can do what I need - I was told on the PPro forum that CS6 lacked a time code window. Obviously not the case. Now if either can also restore sync simply and quickly, then it appears I will have some real options.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 27, 2012 at 3:17:40 am

[Herb Sevush] "I'm almost always cutting multicam shows, but that doesn't mean I'm always cutting with multiclips to do it, there's a mix and I need to be able to use whatever mode or tool I want without penalty."

Yes. I misunderstood. Apologies.

Fcpx does not have an FCP Legend like tc up, and those of us that use sync markers and tc miss it.

[Herb Sevush] "Now if either can also restore sync simply and quickly, then it appears I will have some real options."

If I remember correctly, you like to work delinked.

Pr assumes if you unlink a/v, you no longer care about sync, and stops tracking sync between a/v sync.

If you work linked, then you get out of sync markers and have nearly the same tools as legend to get things back in sync.

Adobe listens pretty well, I'm sure if you submit a request, they will listen to you.

Jeremy


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Charles CranneyRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 25, 2012 at 3:47:02 pm

In the book about Steve Jobs, he said he was influenced by Clay Christensen's book The Innovator’s Dilemma. It seems the FCP X is following the path that a new startup would follow. There is danger in being at the top and trying to satisfy the current professionals. It doesn't allow for creative new thought. The fact that so many professionals were upset is a good sign that the technology is disruptive innovation.

FCP X is a new program, to be sure, but I'm kind of excited about it as I've been learning it.


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Herb SevushRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 25, 2012 at 3:53:54 pm

[Charles Cranney] "The fact that so many professionals were upset is a good sign that the technology is disruptive innovation."

Either that or a piece of sh*t.
or both.
or neither.

In fact, that fact isn't a particularly good sign of anything, except those things you want it to be a sign of.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Richard CardonnaRe: Who is Going To Switch?
by on Oct 25, 2012 at 4:44:20 pm

i will buy my first Mac since 1994. Because todays pro needs to have all the tools availabele.HOw ever i will run it with bootcamp cause all my apps are windows but i will purchase fcpx and learn it. But adobe is where i am staying unless it becomes avidised.

rc


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