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The Showdown: FCPX vs Premiere Pro Full 45 minute presentation

COW Forums : Apple FCPX or Not: The Debate

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Craig SeemanThe Showdown: FCPX vs Premiere Pro Full 45 minute presentation
by on Oct 2, 2012 at 2:50:35 am

FCPX vs Premiere Pro Full 45 minute presentation









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Shane RossRe: The Showdown: FCPX vs Premiere Pro Full 45 minute presentation
by on Oct 2, 2012 at 7:57:13 am

Wait for it....wait for it.

Soundtack Pro

Shane
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Shane RossRe: The Showdown: FCPX vs Premiere Pro Full 45 minute presentation
by on Oct 2, 2012 at 8:20:16 am

Hmmmm...one of the arguements he had when comparing audio editing apps (Audition vs Logic Pro) was that while Audition is nice, and fully featured, it isn't the "industry standard." Logic Pro was...so he leaned that way. I thought ProTools was the industry standard.

Why didn't he lean that way with the NLE? He totally discounted Avid (due to something about "proprietary" something...DnxHD?). That IS the industry standard.

Oh, we don't know what industry he's talking about. Can't have a standard unless you know what industry one is talking about.

And trying to compare iDVD to Encore? Please.

And just like many others who defend FCX and "tape," they only consider DV and HDV as "tape."

He says that his students don't have the best organization skills, so FCX is a better option for them. How about this...TEACH THEM ORGANIZATION! That's part of your job...part of editing is organization. A huge part. Even in FCX, you need to be organized. Gah...so many new editors (trying to be assistants too) hitting the scene with zero organization skill. Bad bad bad.

Funny...he mentions the way that FCX organizes and how you need to manage and delete media from within FCX itself, and that's the ONLY way...and that is a big bonus and why he put a point in the corner for FCX. This is something Avid's been doing forever. Not that I like it personally, I much preferred FCP Legacy's way.

I just want to know who his students are, and what they intend to go off and do when they graduate.

Shane
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Shane RossRe: The Showdown: FCPX vs Premiere Pro Full 45 minute presentation
by on Oct 2, 2012 at 8:32:15 am

Ah...I should have watched the entire thing before posting. I was watching as I typed responses, but didn't wait until the end to ask "what industry?"

For documentary and narrative, he said "FCX!" Guess he doesn't know our industry well. It's all FCP and Avid, and those are both options he took off the table (FCP legacy, I get. that's EOL)

Shane
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Frank GothmannRe: The Showdown: FCPX vs Premiere Pro Full 45 minute presentation
by on Oct 2, 2012 at 9:15:37 am

"Hands down the best option for importing from tape is FCPX"
Unreal! Maybe it's time for students to look for a new course and teacher asap.

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Roli RivelinoRe: The Showdown: FCPX vs Premiere Pro Full 45 minute presentation
by on Oct 3, 2012 at 1:55:48 pm

I have to agree with Shane's second reply, the minute he started comparing iDVD to DVD SP and Encore I stopped watching. I wanted to stop when he said his students didn't find Color very useful and when he reckoned it was fine that FCP X had integrated that feature.

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Ian BaileyRe: The Showdown: FCPX vs Premiere Pro Full 45 minute presentation
by on Oct 2, 2012 at 12:06:47 pm

Very useful, I tend to agree with most of what he says. But I would have liked to have also seen a comparison with Avid.

There were some inaccuracies. For example you can bring an image sequence into FCPX, it's just more complicated than it is in Motion.


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Michael HendrixRe: The Showdown: FCPX vs Premiere Pro Full 45 minute presentation
by on Oct 2, 2012 at 1:42:19 pm

I actually stopped watching around the 14 min mark. Too many, "that's what's best for my students." I think the kicker was that USB 2 was perfectly fine for editing.



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Joseph OwensRe: The Showdown: FCPX vs Premiere Pro Full 45 minute presentation
by on Oct 2, 2012 at 5:14:12 pm

[Michael Hendrix] "I actually stopped watching around the 14 min mark."

The stream croaked at about the 20 minute mark for my 7 year-old Tiger iMac (stone-age technology), and maybe there is some more valuable information in the last half. If there is a redeeming summation, it was unavailable to me.

So this is a powerpoint presentation meant to justify a decision to a very low budget AV program at a high school or college. Which would be their *industry*. Unfortunately its an indictment of how "dumbed down" the view is of production objectives from a very narrow perspective. The presenter clearly has no idea what "COLOR" is or what its for and how very limited the grade capability actually is -- however, "not anything they really need", may be a more honest assessment than intended.

While I am not a foaming-at-the-mouth fan of FCS, and believe that Final Cut Pro was cut way too much slack by people who were over-leveraging it into applications it was clearly not suitable for, its almost amusing to see this kind of a point-by-point cherry-picking exercise argue for something even more limited because the poor students won't be able to figure out anything more sophisticated. Comes across as vaguely patronizing.

jPo

"I always pass on free advice -- its never of any use to me" Oscar Wilde.


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Shane RossRe: The Showdown: FCPX vs Premiere Pro Full 45 minute presentation
by on Oct 2, 2012 at 5:20:55 pm

Didn't really redeem itself in the end. The whole video was basically "this app is better because the students make less errors with it. It is easier for them to understand." Well, if taught properly, and if they pay attention, they shouldn't have many if any errors. Grabbing stuff from a CD and then ejecting the CD and WHAT? the media is gone? Well, if you taught them how to do things, they won't have that issue.

I liked how early on he talked about the complex interface and how that would confuse students. FCP Legacy is by far the least complicated interface. He just opened a bunch of random windows. To him, the selling point is the more simple things are, the better. Forget control over your footage, and your cut. He likes things simple.

Which is fine, some editing apps should be simple. It just depends on what your market is.

Shane
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TImothy AuldRe: The Showdown: FCPX vs Premiere Pro Full 45 minute presentation
by on Oct 2, 2012 at 6:04:42 pm

Sadly, unlike Joseph Owens and Michael Hendrix, I was forced to watch the whole thing. You have got to be kidding me. And to echo Shane Ross: "students are not good at organizing"? I will go way further than Shane and say that editing is organization. It is 90% organization and 10% art. If you need a crutch for organization in any discipline you are screwed. I give the edge to people thinking for themselves and their own needs and not paying the slightest attention to those who do not have to deliver programming in the real world. Forty-five minutes of my life taken that were wholly useless and that I will never get back. Can you bill someone for that?

Tim


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Jacob LanumRe: The Showdown: FCPX vs Premiere Pro Full 45 minute presentation
by on Oct 2, 2012 at 4:45:49 pm

Bummer, I guess no one told them about the Academic Media Composer at $300 and four years of free upgrades. That's some bang for your buck.


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Shane RossRe: The Showdown: FCPX vs Premiere Pro Full 45 minute presentation
by on Oct 2, 2012 at 4:53:13 pm

Still trying to figure out why he dismissed it outright do to proprietary codecs. I mean, DNxHD works on both platforms, and is available for FREE as a download from Apple. You can encode to it on a PC as well as a Mac. ProRes? Encoder not free, and you cannot encode to it on a PC, period.

And yes....$300 for students with 4 years of upgrades free. And it is a TV/Film industry standard.

Now, it wouldn't hold up to other things on his list, like DVD authoring, motion graphics, audio editing app. I get that. But to dismiss it outright was odd.

Shane
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Daniel FromeRe: The Showdown: FCPX vs Premiere Pro Full 45 minute presentation
by on Oct 2, 2012 at 5:32:21 pm

This is even more funny considering the source code for DNxHD is freely available, provided by Avid.


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Craig SeemanRe: The Showdown: FCPX vs Premiere Pro Full 45 minute presentation
by on Oct 2, 2012 at 5:36:07 pm

[Shane Ross] "ProRes? Encoder not free, and you cannot encode to it on a PC, period. "

You may want to change the finality of "period."

Telestream Episode Engine can encode to ProRes on Windows. Not cheap but for bigger facilities that can afford the $4k for an enterprise encoder, it can be done.

[Shane Ross] "And yes....$300 for students with 4 years of upgrades free. And it is a TV/Film industry standard. "

True but there may be other considerations he didn't verbalize. Once the student graduates, unless there's an upgrade path to the full version, is $2500. That's a steep cost for a student who may well be buried in Tuition debt. With Adobe CS there's an affordable subscription model and there's the low cost of FCPX.

As for the TV/Film industry standard, it's great aspiration for a student for a small competitive niche with having to work through internships and assistant editor positions but for many it's only slightly better than a lottery ticket. With Adobe or FCPX, one can be "self employed" at a lower price and aim for the corporate market which now also includes an expending video for web marketing opportunities.



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Shane RossRe: The Showdown: FCPX vs Premiere Pro Full 45 minute presentation
by on Oct 2, 2012 at 5:48:32 pm

Owning editing software is a luxury. When working in broadcast TV or film, 95% of the time you will be using equipment at the production company, or post house. VERY rarely do editors get to edit on their own gear out here. Most don't own their own stuff. Only if we have side projects or a job that will pay for it will we get it. Which is why FCP flew off the shelf and took over, we bought it to do our side work on.

So...for side work, sure, FCX. But if they want to work in TV/film, they need to learn the Avid. If they leave the school with only FCX training...they'll be hard pressed to find a job.

Most often right out of school students don't hit the ground editing. They start at other companies doing lower end work and working their way up. So they use the software and tools those companies use.

Ownership of editing software, and editing right out of college, is rare. Yes, it happens, but it is rare.

Shane
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Tim WilsonRe: The Showdown: FCPX vs Premiere Pro Full 45 minute presentation
by on Oct 2, 2012 at 8:34:05 pm

With the academic version of Avid Media Composer, after you graduate, it becomes a full commercial license. Note that this deal is also good for teachers.

[Shane Ross] "But if they want to work in TV/film, they need to learn the Avid."

Which is what makes the $399 Media Composer deal such a no-brainer.

The myth of "no ProRes on a PC" really does need to die. In addition to Episode, Telestream Vantage and FlipFactory all encode to ProRes on Windows. Harmonic Rhozet ProCoder (formerly Canopus, then Grass Valley) integrates straight into Premiere, so you can encode ProRes on Windows directly from the timeline.

Slight catch: you have to be using a server version of Windows, which CS6 doesn't technically support, but I've seen many reports of it working in grand fashion. Of course, you can also run the server version of the OS on a render machine or garden...no different than thousands of you are already doing with render stations/gardens/farms already.

These can scale up to enterprise-class infrastructures of course, but you can also use the free 5DtoRBG, which puts a nice interface on top of FFmpeg, which is not only free but open source.

Note that FFmpeg is not exactly pretty for non-nerds. Lots of command line. It's also limited to 1 file at a time. However, downloading "Another GUI" (that's the name of the free software) as the front end is pretty slick, and supports batching.

These are all a lot simpler than I'm making them sound LOL, but there really are quite a few very good options for encoding ProRes on Windows, from massive server-based batch encoding, all the way down to single-file DSLR exports, and several stops in-between.

Tim Wilson
Vice President, Editor-in-Chief
Creative COW



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Shane RossRe: The Showdown: FCPX vs Premiere Pro Full 45 minute presentation
by on Oct 2, 2012 at 8:36:09 pm

OK, good to be schooled about ProRes.

Still makes me wonder what he meant by "Proprietary nature of Avid." Guessing the MXF files?

Shane
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Joseph OwensRe: The Showdown: FCPX vs Premiere Pro Full 45 minute presentation
by on Oct 2, 2012 at 8:52:47 pm

[Shane Ross] "Most often right out of school students don't hit the ground editing. They start at other companies doing lower end work and working their way up. So they use the software and tools those companies use."

This would appear to infer that 'learning to edit' with FCX would be an even bigger waste of time (since it does all the organizational legwork for you) so that would be a non-acquired experience, and no matter what cataloguing model a production company bases its server-sharing around, its going to be a cold start for anyone entering the environment.

I liken it to moving into a new house. The dang light switches are in different places everywhere! I especially hate it when the bathroom switch is outside the room. But FCX doesn't even have light switches, it is so simple and helpful -- but you only get illumination when Apple decides you need it and they feel like flipping the switch.

Does anyone (else) here remember SCTV's Ed Grimley (Martin Short) , who never learned how to climb a staircase?
Apple: why bother? anywhere we'd go has escalators. As If.

jPo

"I always pass on free advice -- its never of any use to me" Oscar Wilde.


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Tero AhlforsRe: The Showdown: FCPX vs Premiere Pro Full 45 minute presentation
by on Oct 3, 2012 at 4:43:42 am

I bought Production Premium CS4 and CS5 while I was studying. The student version is about 400 euros, you get a lot of applications for the price, you can use them in commercial productions and can install them to two computers. The license doesn't go anywhere and you can upgrade it to a retail box at the same upgrade price.

It's cheap as hell considering Photoshop CS6 Extended alone is about 1000 euros.


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Gary HuffRe: The Showdown: FCPX vs Premiere Pro Full 45 minute presentation
by on Oct 2, 2012 at 8:37:54 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Telestream Episode Engine can encode to ProRes on Windows. Not cheap but for bigger facilities that can afford the $4k for an enterprise encoder, it can be done."

5DtoRGB can do it on Windows...for free. Though, admittedly, only one file at a time.

EDIT: Tim beat me to it.


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Tim WilsonRe: The Showdown: FCPX vs Premiere Pro Full 45 minute presentation
by on Oct 2, 2012 at 10:23:37 pm

[Gary Huff] "5DtoRGB can do it on Windows...for free. Though, admittedly, only one file at a time.

EDIT: Tim beat me to it."


:-)

And, "Another GUI" (that's the name of the free software) is a free downloadable front end for ffmpeg (the same free software underneath 5DtoRGB) that's quite nice, and supports batching.

Sorry to be repetitious, but I think this is pretty cool stuff.

tw


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Gary HuffRe: The Showdown: FCPX vs Premiere Pro Full 45 minute presentation
by on Oct 3, 2012 at 2:16:10 pm

[Tim Wilson] "Sorry to be repetitious, but I think this is pretty cool stuff."

Yes, all we need now is for Apple to open source ProRes like they did their lossless codec, and there will be peace in our time.


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Richard HerdRe: The Showdown: FCPX vs Premiere Pro Full 45 minute presentation
by on Oct 4, 2012 at 7:38:22 pm

[Shane Ross] "$300 for students with 4 years of upgrades free. And it is a TV/Film industry standard. "

One follow up question: What operating software is currently industry standard?

My students will be cutting on all 3 very soon. My PPr is Windows; I have 5 of them. My iMacs are i5 (due to pricing concerns), and I will have 2 of them. I can only afford 1 Avid license and 1 ProTools license. Whereas I prefer Apple OS, I want to make sure I purchase the correct one for the TV and Film industry standards. It's what my students want to learn, at risk high school kids.

Thanks!


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TImothy AuldRe: The Showdown: FCPX vs Premiere Pro Full 45 minute presentation
by on Oct 4, 2012 at 8:16:48 pm

Boy, that's a tough one. Speaking in general larger operations on Avid tend to use Windows. Smaller operations on all of the above tend to use Mac OS. There is no standard really, but happily both Avid and Premiere work (operationally) exactly the same on both OS's. So either one should do fine but I definitely think going with something you're comfortable is a good idea.

Tim


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Michael HancockRe: The Showdown: FCPX vs Premiere Pro Full 45 minute presentation
by on Oct 4, 2012 at 8:16:13 pm

[Richard Herd] "I can only afford 1 Avid license and 1 ProTools license. Whereas I prefer Apple OS, I want to make sure I purchase the correct one for the TV and Film industry standards. It's what my students want to learn, at risk high school kids."

When you buy Avid you can install it on either Windows or Macs. You get an installer for both. In addition, you can install it on all of your computers but only one can be activated at a time. Student using it on the iMac? Awesome. When they're done they deactivate the license and another student on a PC can start Avid and activate it. Rinse/repeat. No limits on installs or OS, just one activated at a time.

ProTools I have no experience with so that might be different.

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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Tim WilsonRe: The Showdown: FCPX vs Premiere Pro Full 45 minute presentation
by on Oct 4, 2012 at 8:24:17 pm

[Michael Hancock] "[Richard Herd] "I can only afford 1 Avid license and 1 ProTools license. Whereas I prefer Apple OS, I want to make sure I purchase the correct one for the TV and Film industry standards. It's what my students want to learn, at risk high school kids."

When you buy Avid you can install it on either Windows or Macs. You get an installer for both. In addition, you can install it on all of your computers but only one can be activated at a time. Student using it on the iMac? Awesome. When they're done they deactivate the license and another student on a PC can start Avid and activate it. Rinse/repeat. No limits on installs or OS, just one activated at a time."



And as a reminder, because every time this comes up, somebody is surprised because they had no idea:

Academic licenses for Avid Media Composer are $295, and includes 4 years of upgrades. (I said $395 in an earlier post - it's TWO ninety five.) That price is good for students, institutions AND TEACHERS. Some details here.

Same price for Pro Tools academic.


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Richard HerdRe: The Showdown: FCPX vs Premiere Pro Full 45 minute presentation
by on Oct 4, 2012 at 9:45:53 pm

[Tim Wilson] "Avid Media Composer are $295"

Wow! That's a great price.

Thanks for your input, guys.


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Ric LanciottiRe: The Showdown: FCPX vs Premiere Pro Full 45 minute presentation
by on Oct 6, 2012 at 3:36:27 am

Hi all,

I’m the guy who made the video. Thank you all for your criticism, there where definitely things I didn’t know and therefore misrepresented. I’m sure this video was very frustrating to some of you and I really didn’t mean to do that. It was truly made for a few faculty members who couldn’t attend a meeting and as a courtesy for the other schools which answered our survey, it was to help us figure out what was right for our school and our program I never intended it to be the final word of even my final word on what is the best editor.
For our students, who mostly want to create art video and animation to be shown in a gallery setting and don’t want to work in the professional video or film industry I still believe that FCPX is the right choice. Yes I know that’s being very specific and yes I realize that the chances of video art paying the bills are slim. If I was asked to create this for a different set of students and faculty the results could very well be for one of the other two options. I’m sure that this had been said many times on this and other forums the software is just another tool for you to create with. For our students I believe FCPX serves their needs the best, but that doesn’t mean that it’s the best tool for you or anyone else here nor does it mean that it’s a perfect tool.

Thanks for reading and super thanks to those who watched all 45 (or 20 or 30) minutes and thanks to this site which has gotten me out of a number of binds in the past,

Ric


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reid vanvorisRe: The Showdown: FCPX vs Premiere Pro Full 45 minute presentation
by on Oct 7, 2012 at 3:37:11 pm

Wow! Get an ice pack for the butt kicking you took over that FCPX vs PPr CS6 post. You should have made clear your review was concerning specialty students and specialty NLE uses (you know that now, of course). The Cow forums are mostly made up of folks who use the software and gear discussed to make their living. I teach at a college, too. We have A.S. degrees and B.A.S. degrees that are tied to the needs of the local workforce and FCPX is not the industry standard in our market (Miami) either, nor is Logic (Pro Tools is). I do see your logic for ease of use for students who are not going into pro video prod/post jobs. Don't feel bad. Your review was logical and on target for what your students' NLE uses are. Apple was going for making its NLE more consumer friendly and your review points that out well. Logic is also a not a bad choice, but Pro Tools has a student discount at about $295 which puts it close to Logic's price, and PT is the industry go to software for audio. You talked a lot about what you thought Apple might do with its products in the future. Does what they did with FCP7 give you confidence? I will try to paraphrase good advice I took from a blog post from Walter Biscardi who is a pro kind enough to share his real-world experiences with all of us -- in the post production world you don't prepare for what technology might come in the future, you prepare for the now. Good advice from a man who makes his daily bread with the tools he chooses to work with everyday.


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Shane RossRe: The Showdown: FCPX vs Premiere Pro Full 45 minute presentation
by on Oct 7, 2012 at 7:52:57 pm

Sorry about that. Now that we know what the reasoning is, the decision makes total sense.

I came from the angle that you were trying to teach kids who wanted to get into editing as a career. But for what you are doing...yeah, well thought out.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Chris JacekRe: The Showdown: FCPX vs Premiere Pro Full 45 minute presentation
by on Oct 9, 2012 at 2:04:46 pm

Ric,

Kudos to you for having the guts to address this tough crowd. There are many strong opinions and harsh criticisms that come from this group, and I am just as guilty as anyone. Thanks for keeping a good debate going. That said, I'm sorry to set up the big "BUT", but...

I have to disagree with you regarding FCPX even being the best tool for video art. I run a Digital Media program at a small college. We emphasize both employability, and artistic video creation. One of our major annual projects is something called the "Big Box" where we create a four-sided video "room" that people stand inside of, and are surrounded by video on all 4 sides, similar to the parlors in Ray Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451. To make this work, we must create a master video in an obscure frame size (4096x768). Unless things have changed dramatically since I gave up on the software, this is not even possible in the FCPX environment.

Though FCPX and Motion are indeed capable of compelling visuals, they are also quite often limited to a "preset" mentality. Yes, you can create some lush animations, but there are likely 10,000 other people making the exact same visual. For truly original work, I believe that After Effects is far better suited to the task. I could not even imagine attempting some of the things we have tried without the use of the expressions language in After Effects. And of course, Premiere benefits from offering the easiest pipeline to After Effects.

As an educator, I do feel that I must echo some of the sentiments of other professionals on the board. It should not be the goal of instructors to find the easiest path for our students, nor should we cater to their deficiencies, such as their lack of organizational skills. That would be like assigning less homework, because students have a tendency not to do their homework. Or starting class late, because students are notoriously bad at getting up early. We owe it to them to help overcome their deficiencies.

We use DSLRs. in part, for this very reason. DSLRs' lack of adequate autofocus, quality sync-sound, power-zoom, and other features that have become standard on video cameras, is actually a benefit to teaching, rather than a liability. It allows me to teach the students the skills that many of us may have let slip over the past 10-20 years. And by doing so, the students are able to create a much better product than they would have been able at the same price point (because, in education it's also ALWAYS about budget).

Okay, now I am straying wildly off-topic, which is starting to sound like one of my classes.

Professor, Producer, Editor
and former Apple Employee


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Ric LanciottiRe: The Showdown: FCPX vs Premiere Pro Full 45 minute presentation
by on Oct 11, 2012 at 3:41:54 am

Thanks everyone,

No hard feelings at all. I actually had very similar arguments about professional employment for our students when I fist saw the outline for the program. It was kind of surreal seeing the same arguments I had made to the chair coming back at me. But, I take full responsibility for misrepresenting some things as industry standard and I’ll definitely do a little more due diligence in the future, thanks for the lesson guys.

Chris, I completely agree with almost everything you’ve said, After Effects is the right choice for that type of work and it is the program we teach or show students when they need that level of sophistication in their projects. I’m actually happy that FCPX’s effects are so template based as it makes it really easy for me to use most of my student’s “I’m an artist and therefore different than everyone else” mentality to push them towards the proper tool - After Effects (Although the FCPX > AE workflow leaves a lot to be desired). I will say I just recently began introducing my students to FCPX and it was great to see so many of them beginning to understand sequencing and timing rather than being frustrated with timecode errors etc.

Thanks again for everyone’s responses.


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