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Any of you kids see any cameras at NAB?

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Tim WilsonAny of you kids see any cameras at NAB?
by on May 5, 2012 at 5:46:01 pm

Sorry to break in with something off-topic (hahahahaha!), but I've noticed that there hasn't been much camera chatter besides the obviously intriguing Blackmagic Cinema Camera. What else did you see?

And if you didn't go, what are you most interested in hearing more about?

Thanks...and apologies again for something this far off topic (hahahahahaha!).

Tim Wilson
Associate Publisher, Editor-in-Chief
Creative COW Magazine
Twitter: timdoubleyou



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Chris HarlanRe: Any of you kids see any cameras at NAB?
by on May 5, 2012 at 5:55:49 pm

[Tim Wilson] "Thanks...and apologies again for something this far off topic (hahahahahaha!)."

Exactly why should we be talking about cameras when we already have a thread going about hammers?


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Greg AndonianRe: Any of you kids see any cameras at NAB?
by on May 5, 2012 at 6:14:04 pm

Stop- CAMERATIME!!

______________________________________________
"THAT'S our fail-safe point. Up until here, we still have enough track to stop the locomotive before it plunges into the ravine... But after this windmill it's the future or bust."


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Tim WilsonRe: Any of you kids see any cameras at NAB?
by on May 5, 2012 at 9:35:11 pm

Coincidentally, I just got a note from MC Hammer, wanting his parachute pants back. I told him what I usually tell him, and will probably tell him the same thing next time too.

Tim Wilson
Associate Publisher, Editor-in-Chief
Creative COW Magazine
Twitter: timdoubleyou



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Glen HurdRe: Any of you kids see any cameras at NAB?
by on May 5, 2012 at 6:17:45 pm

Because, with guns, hammers are used to fire the primer, which then ignites the cartridge powder . . . and since we're talking about shooting . . . :)


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Lance BachelderRe: Any of you kids see any cameras at NAB?
by on May 5, 2012 at 6:29:41 pm

It was a great NAB for cameras! Blackmagic looks intriguing and great price/specs but built-in 90 min. battery and lack of demo footage leaves lots of questions marks...

Saw the Sony FS700 in Sony 4K Theater - 240fps looks fantastic and $8,000 price is a bargain for this camera especially once they unlock the 4K port. Sony will sell a LOT of FS700's!

Canon also had a 4K theater showing the C500 and EOS1D C footage. I thought they were both horribly overpriced until I saw the footage - these 2 cameras will be huge game changers and relative bargains when comparing to Red, Alexa and F65. I'm hoping the 1D C will be ready by the time I start my next feature - love this camera! I expect both these cameras to be used on every type of show in the future from commercials to tent-pole features.

Big losers were Panasonic and JVC which have both fallen way behind in the digital cinema camera realm with JVC going strictly for news shooters and Panasonic showing a "prototype" Varicam? Weird.

Nikon had a booth for the first time showing their HDMI DSLR's but didn't really know how to set up a booth with relatively tiny LCD's here and there which really didn't tell you what their cameras are capable of. But they do seem to be listening to users and wanting to make inroads into digital cinema...

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Chris HarlanRe: Any of you kids see any cameras at NAB?
by on May 5, 2012 at 6:37:44 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "Saw the Sony FS700 in Sony 4K Theater - 240fps looks fantastic and $8,000 price is a bargain for this camera especially once they unlock the 4K port. Sony will sell a LOT of FS700's!"

I saw amazing slo-mo footage from this. It drives me nuts that nothing I do will ever justify me purchasing it.


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Richard CardonnaRe: Any of you kids see any cameras at NAB?
by on May 6, 2012 at 2:42:18 am

Yes I can see everybody and their mother doing slowmo for everthing. Its going to get sickining, I think

Ric


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Steve ConnorRe: Any of you kids see any cameras at NAB?
by on May 5, 2012 at 7:14:38 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "Blackmagic looks intriguing and great price/specs but built-in 90 min. battery and lack of demo footage leaves lots of questions marks...
"


Not sure why the battery thing is drawing so much heat on the forums, most cameras don't even have built in batteries. It will work with external batteries too.


[Lance Bachelder] "Saw the Sony FS700 in Sony 4K Theater - 240fps looks fantastic and $8,000 price is a bargain for this camera especially once they unlock the 4K port. Sony will sell a LOT of FS700's!"

We're certainly getting one!

Steve Connor
"FCPX Professional"
Adrenalin Television


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Lance BachelderRe: Any of you kids see any cameras at NAB?
by on May 5, 2012 at 10:17:48 pm

The battery thing is a big deal to me. BMD picked a form factor and is running with it but it was a major complaint for a lot of folks I spoke with at NAB. Just about every camera under 10 grand uses a changeable battery and we're used to carrying around several to get through the day. If I have to outfit a small camera with rails etc. just to attach an Anton Bauer BRICK then I lose the benefit of the original form factor.

It's not a total deal breaker as you usually need extra power for external monitor etc. I know the camera will sell well regardless - it has the best specs on paper of any camera under 10 grand right now. At under 3 grand, it would be easy to have 2 or 3 on set and always have one on a charger...

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Jeremy GarchowRe: Any of you kids see any cameras at NAB?
by on May 6, 2012 at 11:12:03 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "At under 3 grand, it would be easy to have 2 or 3 on set and always have one on a charger..."

Boy. Now that's a business plan.

Hide the battery to sell more cameras?

There are days that we don't have access to chargers. So now we need to buy four cameras?

I don't know. Maybe the pictures will be amazing.

No matter what, the form factor of this camera is really strange.


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Tim WilsonRe: Any of you kids see any cameras at NAB?
by on May 6, 2012 at 11:49:16 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] (sort of) "Boy. Now that's a business plan.

Hide the battery to sell more [iPhones]?

There are days that we don't have access to chargers. So now we need to buy four [iPhones]?"


Yeah, a phone costs less, lasts longer, and isn't as critical, but the point is the same. People live with a product's design limitations when it helps them overcome other kinds of limitations they deem more important.

Not that people shouldn't take limitations into account. But we can start with the limitations of any number of cameras, formats, workflows -- people trade off some things to get to other ones. They HAVE to. It's the nature of the biz.

With something that looks like this much fun to them, or has as much potential, and overcomes a number of the limitations of other cameras in its general class, paying this amount of money for this amount of camera isn't a hard call. Especially as a B camera, this seems like a no-brainer to me for an awful lot of shooting scenarios, and not a stretch for an A camera in a bunch of others.

Tim Wilson
Associate Publisher, Editor-in-Chief
Creative COW Magazine
Twitter: timdoubleyou



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Jeremy GarchowRe: Any of you kids see any cameras at NAB?
by on May 7, 2012 at 12:35:18 am

[Tim Wilson] "
Yeah, a phone costs less, lasts longer, and isn't as critical, but the point is the same. People live with a product's design limitations when it helps them overcome other kinds of limitations they deem more important.
"


People don't pay us to use iPhones.

Sorry, Tim, it's different.

Believe me, I understand what it means to work with limitations.

It's not just the battery, it's the whole form factor.

I'll wait and see what the pictures look like. It has an amazing price point, I'm sure they'll sell a bucket of them.

Lance is buying 4! ;)

I will be curious to see what the world has to say when they are released.

Jeremy


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Lance BachelderRe: Any of you kids see any cameras at NAB?
by on May 7, 2012 at 7:40:40 am

Actually saving my pennies for the Canon EOS 1D C 4K DSLR - this is the camera I've been waiting for!

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Jeremy GarchowRe: Any of you kids see any cameras at NAB?
by on May 7, 2012 at 12:35:39 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "Actually saving my pennies for the Canon EOS 1D C 4K DSLR - this is the camera I've been waiting for!"

Is it the 4k or is it the DSLR?

Why not a C500?

Just curious.


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Steve ConnorRe: Any of you kids see any cameras at NAB?
by on May 5, 2012 at 7:15:51 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "Blackmagic looks intriguing and great price/specs but built-in 90 min. battery and lack of demo footage leaves lots of questions marks...
"


Not sure why the battery thing is drawing so much heat on the forums, most cameras don't even have built in batteries. It will work with external batteries too.


[Lance Bachelder] "Saw the Sony FS700 in Sony 4K Theater - 240fps looks fantastic and $8,000 price is a bargain for this camera especially once they unlock the 4K port. Sony will sell a LOT of FS700's!"

We're certainly getting one!

Steve Connor
"FCPX Professional"
Adrenalin Television


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Bobby MoscaRe: Any of you kids see any cameras at NAB?
by on May 5, 2012 at 7:31:22 pm

I think Blackmagic's battery situation cuts down a bit on its mobility. External batteries aren't as clean to deal with. Everything I do is on location, so it is something I would have to address. My 2 cents.

It is only the first attempt to wade into the DSLR market with a dedicated video product at that price point and quality (supposedly), so there is sure to be more to come. I would wait to see what comes next.


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Any of you kids see any cameras at NAB?
by on May 5, 2012 at 8:02:17 pm

Ooooo. Another juicy topic.

If you think it's difficult to choose an NLE/OS platform, cameras have it beat by an order of magnitude.

I, personally do not hold a camera, but I go to a lot of shoots, talk with a healthy stable of freelance DPs that partner with us, and we own cameras. I approach it from a post side (of course) and the DPs that I talk to want to know what we want, and I want to know what they want in the field. We try and come up with the best solution for any given job.

It used to be that you hire a DP and their camera. These days, DPs in my area anyway, don't own cameras anymore. They own support gear and maybe some lenses, and of course they have a camera that they own, but they don't use it on every single shoot. It's just as crazy for DPs out there as they have to ram to speed on a big plethora of camera formats, limitations, shooting formats, media requirements, menus, tricks and know-hows, lenses and their formats, separate audio (or not) as well as keeping it all in focus.

It seems that on all of our recent shoots for the last 2 years or so, there's no less than two different media types, and usually there's three. Not a big deal as all NLEs can handle it, but they all handle formats a little differently.

For our particular business, the race to 4k is not a race we need to run at the moment. We do use reds/Epics every once in a while, they make great pictures, but we never post/deliver in 4k and don't see that changing real soon. You never know, but ultra high resolution isn't the first consideration for our gigs.

I will have to reserve judgement for the Blackmagic camera once we see real pictures. The battery limitation is real consideration for us. Yes, you can hook it up to other power, and yes, other cameras have extenr


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Tim WilsonRe: Any of you kids see any cameras at NAB?
by on May 5, 2012 at 8:22:07 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "These days, DPs in my area anyway, don't own cameras anymore. They own support gear and maybe some lenses, and of course they have a camera that they own, but they don't use it on every single shoot."

Veering a little off topic (hahahaha!!!) from my own (off) topic, but okay, what are you and your Chicagoland peeps tending to use? Why?


[Jeremy Garchow] "You never know, but ultra high resolution isn't the first consideration for our gigs."

What IS the first consideration?

Tim Wilson
Associate Publisher, Editor-in-Chief
Creative COW Magazine
Twitter: timdoubleyou



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Jeremy GarchowRe: Any of you kids see any cameras at NAB?
by on May 5, 2012 at 8:26:10 pm

Had an iPad foul up and somehow hit send too early. Finishing it up now.


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Andrew KimeryRe: Any of you kids see any cameras at NAB?
by on May 5, 2012 at 8:37:03 pm

W/regards to the battery, some people seem keen on it since it will act like a UPS so you can change external batteries all day and never need to power the camera down. Many people are also speculating that since the camera will accept 12v-30v that with a simple adapter Lithium Ion batteries designed for power tools could be a readily available option for the DIYers in the crowd.

-Andrew

2.9 GHz 8-core (4,1), FCP 7.0.3, 10.6.6
Blackmagic Multibridge Eclipse (7.9.5)



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Jeremy GarchowRe: Any of you kids see any cameras at NAB?
by on May 5, 2012 at 8:50:08 pm

Ooooo. Another juicy topic.

If you think it's difficult to choose an NLE/OS platform, cameras have it beat by an order of magnitude.

I, personally do not hold a camera, but I go to a lot of shoots, talk with a healthy stable of freelance DPs that partner with us, and we own cameras. I approach it from a post side (of course) and the DPs that I talk to want to know what we want, and I want to know what they want in the field. We try and come up with the best solution for any given job.

It used to be that you hire a DP and their camera. These days, DPs in my area anyway, don't own cameras anymore. They own support gear and maybe some lenses, and of course they have a camera that they own, but they don't use it on every single shoot. It's just as crazy for DPs out there as they have to ramp up to speed on a big plethora of camera formats, limitations, shooting formats, media requirements, menus, tricks and know-hows, lenses and their formats, separate audio (or not) as well as keeping it all in focus.

It seems that on all of our recent shoots for the last 2 years or so, there's no less than two different media types, and usually there's three. Not a big deal as all NLEs can handle it, but they all handle formats a little differently.

For our particular business, the race to 4k is not a race we need to run at the moment. We do use reds/Epics every once in a while, they make great pictures, but we never post/deliver in 4k and don't see that changing real soon. You never know, but ultra high resolution isn't the first consideration for our gigs.

I will have to reserve judgement for the Blackmagic camera once we see real pictures. The battery limitation is real consideration for us. Yes, you can hook it up to other power, and yes, other cameras have external batteries, but those batteries mate to the camera without any extra rigging. This is an important detail, at least for us. It also doesn't look very rugged. I think it will make a great studio camera for now.

The fs700 looks awesome. But it's long GOP. When editing long GOP natively, you will need more horse power on your CPU.

The DSLR movement is beginning to wane for a lot of the DPs we work with. They are super limiting, they are difficult to operate most of the time, and audio is a pain, and then theres timecode, but timecode is at least coming along in newer DSLRs.

That brings me to Panasonic. We, as you may or may not know, really like Panasonic. I, personally love p2 and avc-Intra. I, too, was a little disappointed with no major news from Panasonic, but the more I thought about it, the more it made sense.

We have an af100, and it is starting to replace DSLRs on shoots that benefit from short DOF. It is more flexible, has real camera controls, and is fairly easy to operate. It's not our favorite camera of all time, but it does a decent job. Avchd, is very compressed. This is also not my favorite, but if the guys holding the camera prefer that to DSLR, I'm all for it. The images, for the most part, come back looking OK, and depending on the gig, ok is just fine. It does moire sometimes, but much less so than DSLRs. MUCH less so. We went to an af100 launch tour and someone (it might have been me) asked why there wasn't a p2 version. The answer was that the camera would cost $4,000 more.

Uh, hello? For those of us that we're invested in p2, 4 grand would have been well worth it.

This brings us to avc-Intra. I think Panasonic's next big move is AVC-Ultra and it obviously wasn't ready for NAB 2012. AVC-Intra is already pretty great with it being iframe 422 10bit, plugging in to almost any NLE on the planet very easily, and get this, it's cross platform. Besides a coupe of "for pay" third parties, who else is doing that? AVC-I is also a large boradcast standard and thats the market the Panasonic is servicing most heavily. And they should, they are really good at it. A DP we work owns a p2 varicam, and all things considered, it is a really really nice looking camera with clean, sharp, bright images, especially when you add cine gamma. It also proves to be very versatile in the field. There's not much you can't do with it. I am continually impressed with that camera and it's not the newest craze in the midst of whatever is happening in this "camera revolution". It's a true work horse.

Now, take all that and move it to avc-ultra which will be 444 12bit up to 4k and also support all the Intra flavors. That's a pretty big deal. This means we will have a broadcast flavored 4k cross platform post/delivery system that will probably plug in as easily as avc-Intra already does, and it will most likely run on more recent p2 cards. For those invested in p2, this is going to be a very logical and well thought out step. It just wasn't ready for this year, and I think that Panasonic knows that the broadcast market isn't quite ready for 4k either. It's simple math. I think Panasonic will deliver in a big way if it works as well as avc-Intra.

I am super curious about the varicam prototype. Can't wait to see what happens with it. I will be watching.

Then there's Alexa. That camera and post workflow is an absolute dream. LogC is very flexible, and you get post ready files right away. We just can't afford an Alexa on every job. I wish we could. It's DP friendly, it's post friendly, and while it does cost "a lot" to own, there are jobs that we can rent it on and it really makes a big difference in quality.

From a post standpoint, the biggest noticeable advantage to quality has not been the pixel count, but logarithmic workflows and dynamic range. For our deliverables, dynamic range/color are what makes a better image rather than 4k resolution. It's one of the reasons I love the Alexa. We "only" shoot 1080 with it, but LogC allows so much grading flexibility that the resolution isn't as paramount.

It seems that most camera companies are coming out with their own log workflow, which is really really exciting for me.

For us, the red workflow while not hard, is not as flexible, and we need to have as much flexibility as possible in our productions. Right now, Alexa wins over red in that regard, for us and our needs. Red is striving to be a true film replacement, and that is a commendable effort I guess, but we don't have a use for a film replacement.

As with our next step of NLE, we are going to wait just a little longer. I do like what I see though. There's some really affordable decent quality options out there, that aren't DSLRs. I hope Panasonic can come through with avc-ultra as I'm sure it will be a great acquisition codec. And secretly, I wish Arri made a more affordable camera for us non film/non episodic tv guys. In some circles, the Alexa is a tremendous deal, but it's out of reach for our daily driver.

Sorry about the false post earlier.

To specifically answer your question, considering products that are shipping soon, I am most interested in the fs700.

Jeremy


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Steve ConnorRe: Any of you kids see any cameras at NAB?
by on May 5, 2012 at 8:59:14 pm

Jeremy, have you used the FS100 or F3 yet, the AVC codec on the FS100 is, like the Panasonic AF 100, surprisingly good and in my opinion the FS100 is a better camera, the latest firmware has improved the quality a little too. For us the 700 is going to be a no-brainer.

We've also have an F3 with a Samurai, the quality is excellent and pictures grade incredibly well. We have Slog arriving next week and I'm looking forward to shooting with that very much.

Steve Connor
"FCPX Professional"
Adrenalin Television


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Any of you kids see any cameras at NAB?
by on May 5, 2012 at 9:07:32 pm

Haven't used an f3 yet, but would love to.

We have EOS lenses in house so we would need a third party mount. Not a deal breaker by any stretch of the imagination.

We use KiPros, but again, we cant use them on every shoot. It's awesome when we can.

Also looking forward to slog.

I know the f3 is a hit with one DP that we use. He likes it a lot, we just haven't used it on a job, and he doesn't own one.

If we are going to rent a camera, it's usually an Alexa/Red and we supplement our current Panasonic gear with other Panasonics.

I'd like to get a shot at it, though.


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Michael GissingRe: Any of you kids see any cameras at NAB?
by on May 5, 2012 at 11:45:58 pm

I'm grading an F3 sLog job next week. It was SDI out to PIX 240 recorder and DNxHD as it was an AVID edit.

Preliminary testing in da Vinci is that the sLog grades magnificently. Clean manipulable black detail is excellent and a bit more highlight detail is nice, particularly on things like hot spots on faces. As it is a historical drama it is nice to have the extra detail to manipulate but ironically we will be adding a bit of highlight bloom to create that blown romantic highlight effect. Nice to able to control what will blow better though.

I experimented with the Alex log LUT and clearly the Alexa is using a flatter highlight as the LUT overdoes the highlight contrast in the F3. So the main advantage is in black detail. Not nearly as powerful as being able to dig into ISO and temp settings in RED footage but for broadcast doco and drama the F3 sLog is FAB.

The editor just whacked a one light grade on when editing to emulate a LUT.


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Any of you kids see any cameras at NAB?
by on May 6, 2012 at 11:28:14 pm

[Michael Gissing] "Not nearly as powerful as being able to dig into ISO and temp settings in RED footage but for broadcast doco and drama the F3 sLog is FAB. "

Yes, Log footage is lots of fun. It's my favorite part of workflow technology that has made its way down from the film side of things.

Shooting log makes a much bigger difference than 4+k resolution in my little corner of the world.

Jeremy


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Andrew RichardsRe: Any of you kids see any cameras at NAB?
by on May 6, 2012 at 1:58:14 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "We have an af100, and it is starting to replace DSLRs on shoots that benefit from short DOF. It is more flexible, has real camera controls, and is fairly easy to operate. It's not our favorite camera of all time, but it does a decent job. Avchd, is very compressed. This is also not my favorite, but if the guys holding the camera prefer that to DSLR, I'm all for it."

Have you tried/considered using a KiPro Mini or Samurai with your AF100? When the AF100 was announced, I was immediately interested in bypassing its codec and cards and using the SDI out to record pristine ProRes off that nice big chip.

Best,
Andy

EDIT: oops, already asked and answered.


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Jeremy GarchowRe: Any of you kids see any cameras at NAB?
by on May 6, 2012 at 11:38:24 pm

[Andrew Richards] "Have you tried/considered using a KiPro Mini or Samurai with your AF100? When the AF100 was announced, I was immediately interested in bypassing its codec and cards and using the SDI out to record pristine ProRes off that nice big chip."

Yes, we have KiPros.

With the AF, the picture is already compromised. It's a limitation of the camera, it seems.

The AF100 is a good DSLR replacement for our type of work, but it's not my favorite camera of all time in terms of images. It does grade cleaner than DSLR footage.

Jeremy


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Ed StahrRe: Any of you kids see any cameras at NAB?
by on May 6, 2012 at 3:41:27 am

I want to get my hands on the GoPro firmware update with ProTune. Having a Technicolor approve Cinestyle at 35Mbps really changes what can be done with those cameras.

The FS700 was impressive and looked great in the 4k theater (that 4k projector is a consumer model btw). That is going to be a popular camera.

The BlackMagic camera is very interesting. Especially since it has a Canon EF mount. I thought that was the most interesting point. BM is going after the DSLR market, not RED.

The F65 is fantastic on the high end and feature films will be taking advantage of it.

There were a lot of high speed cameras around.

The big points I saw were:
1. 4k is coming from acquisition to display.
2. "flat" highly gradable digital video will be the norm soon for pros.
3. High frame rate capabilities are becoming more common.
4. Prices are dropping on everything.


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Bob ZelinRe: Any of you kids see any cameras at NAB?
by on May 6, 2012 at 2:51:28 pm

I just saw the FS700. For someone that has forgotten all about Sony, and didn't even go to the Sony both at NAB - WOW, this is an amazing camera - and if you compare it to products like the C300 - you start to say "why would I spend all that extra money". the FS700 is a winner.

Bob Zelin



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Liam HallRe: Any of you kids see any cameras at NAB?
by on May 6, 2012 at 3:40:01 pm

[Bob Zelin] "I just saw the FS700. For someone that has forgotten all about Sony, and didn't even go to the Sony both at NAB - WOW, this is an amazing camera - and if you compare it to products like the C300 - you start to say "why would I spend all that extra money". the FS700 is a winner. "

By the time you factor in your vastly increased lighting budget for all that slow motion footage, the C300 with it's superior colorimetry and dynamic range will seem like a snap.

Liam Hall
Director/DoP/Editor
http://www.liamhall.net


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Don ScioliRe: Any of you kids see any cameras at NAB? Panasonic's 3D camera!
by on May 6, 2012 at 4:13:25 pm

I was impressed by Panasonic's $13K "inexpensive" 3D camera. The booth set up was impressive for such a small camera, with good 3D. It was about 1/4 the size and weight of Cameron's 3D rigs.


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Rich RubaschRe: Any of you kids see any cameras at NAB? Panasonic's 3D camera!
by on May 6, 2012 at 4:53:00 pm

Since we are a Canon 5D shop I keenly focused (so to speak) on the Canon 300 and the Blackmagic cameras. We have compared footage from the AF 100 and our 5D wins (at least our setup).

Good lenses are key and having EF lenses, the Canon and BM are likely here.

Locally, (Madison WI) lots of 5D's 60D's and Lumix. A couple Reds, one at a prominent production house, but not huge here. And plenty of P2 cameras around.

What a time we are in...with all the affordable cameras and Apple putting a sub-$300 price tag on editing software...our decisions will certainly affect our bottom line in some way.

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media Inc.
Video Production, Post, Studio Sound Stage
Founder/President/Editor/Designer/Animator
http://www.tiltmedia.com


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